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Reincarnation; why I don' t believe.
I’ve noticed with an interest tread: Reincarnation; why I believe.
I find this quite amusing that so many Buddhists think and need a concept of reincarnation.
It seems that many are still stuck with the ‘’self’’.
From novice in Buddhism:
All Buddhists aim to find ‘’non self’’
All Buddhist believe that life is suffering.
Why not to take our DNA as Karma and hope that ‘’our suffering’’ will end with our physical death?
I find this quite amusing that so many Buddhists think and need a concept of reincarnation.
It seems that many are still stuck with the ‘’self’’.
From novice in Buddhism:
All Buddhists aim to find ‘’non self’’
All Buddhist believe that life is suffering.
Why not to take our DNA as Karma and hope that ‘’our suffering’’ will end with our physical death?
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Comments
And if it ends with physical death then why bother being a buddhist?
/Puzzeled
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Tess - Look inside yourself, imagine ceasing to exist, to percieve, to be concious.
There is no way we can prove rebirth, or the cycle of samsara, but to investigate for ourselves. Some monks have meditated and seen their past lives, and have had realisations on the matter. But who/what is to say that is the truth. We must investiate for ourselves - as the buddha told us to.
the trick is to deny and assert.
thus playing the middle way role of just being. neither for or against.
Buddhism has answered many questions on the moral and philosophical level.
The goal of Buddhist practice is to get out of the round of rebirths and a lot of sincere practitioners follow the teachings to do that and help others find the same path. Those people don't make rebirth up just because they like the idea, obviously. If they like it, why practice to get out?
Do you really want to live forever?
You can't change your DNA, but you can change your karma.
Of course, to each his own interpretation, but I thought I'd explain how it is separate from being stuck with 'self'.
Metta,
Sabre
Buddhism is the path out of samsara and endless rebirth...But without rebirth death is equivalent to nibbana it seems.
/Victor
Hush I am speaking to Tess. I am curios to hear her motivation.
My motivation?
You can share my confusing... :screwy:
I hope, I will find this tread when I’ll come back. /This site is difficult to follow/.
For now, I have to go but I am looking forward to exchange our ideas.
cc: Tess
You know (I hope) that I do not think it neccessary to belive in rebirth to cultivate.
But I have to say that the kind of reasoning the OP is making in the first post is from a misunderstanind of Anatta and missunderstanding of the concept suffering.
The first missunderstanding is the literal translation of the term Anatta to mean no self. (Yes I know she wrote non-self but if you follow the use of the concept in the rest of the argument it seems clear she interprets it as no-self. correct me please if i am wrong)
The second misunderstanding is the Suffering. Suffering for 50 to 100 years in the correct understanding of suffering does not have to be unbearable at all and thus is no motivation to Cultivate.
When missunderstaning in this way one can come to the erraneous conlusion Tess has. It should read I think:
All buddhist Aim to attain Nibbana (not non-self whatever that means (I am curios not taunting)).
All Buddhist believe that Samsara is suffering.
I am open for discussion though.
IMO
Victor
See you around then
/Victor
I think karma is similar.... ill intentions result in negative behaviour and lead to a circle of suffering; good intention will result in the opposite.
Making the link between karma and reincarnation is somewhat more problematic for me !
Why do you find it "amusing"? Why do you care what others believe? Being amused at the beliefs of others is just your ego's way of making itself superior to them, and therefore justify its own existence and building the wall around itself higher and higher.
I know somebody tried to explain this to me on another thread, but to be honest, I didn't get it, and I apologize. For me to take responsibility for future karma, there has to be some kind of "consciousness-essence" associated with "me" or there's no reason for me to give a rodent's rear end. Might as well just have a hedonistic good time.
I hope whoever tried to explain that to me on the other thread comes back and does that. I was going to start a thread that said "I still don't get it", but the OP saved me from that.
Difficult times are useful for practice even in the this-life approach, though. My Mum is dying of cancer at the moment, and the grief from that has contributed to my progress immensely over the past few months.
(1) inability of sensual & material pleasures to provide meaningful & lasting satisfaction & happiness in our lives
(2) need to know skilful means in conducting our lives & relationships
(3) need to understand & reconcile the suffering, pain, conflicts & evil (harm) we see in the world
(4) need to be able to cope with sickness, aging & death, of not only our own life but also of love ones
(5) in general, need to bring the mind to a state of peace & joy, thru both understanding & meditation
:-/
the Buddha encouraged us to penetrate the reality of impermanence so we can accept it
in the scriptures, the arahant monks did not declare seeing their past lives to people
only the buddha was allowed to say such a thing using a certain kind of language to be interpreted by the listener according to their dispositions
it is against the Vinaya (rules) for any monk to declare he has a supernormal attainment
for example, does Ajahn Brahm ever say he has personally seen his past lives?
i doubt it. his faith is as blind as everyone else
If certain Buddhists know "the way out", as you say, then how come they are still here?
The Buddha taught Nirvana, the final goal, is the here & now end of greed, hatred & delusion.
The Buddha taught the goal of the Buddhist practice is the unshakeable freedom of mind.
The ultimate goal of Buddhism cannot be expressed any simplier than this.
People do make up rebirth because they like the idea. The Buddha called it craving for being & the view of existence.
For moral purposes, for unenlightened people, the Buddha said this was a "safe bet" or "safe gamble"
I know somewhere in there Buddha says tells us to see for ourselves if we agree or not, not follow blind faith. I am curious as the continuation of the text. So he says something like "try these things for yourself to see if they are true" but what comes after that. Does he have any remark like "if you dont agree then I cant help you" or "if you dont agree then just discard that...". Im curious as to how he saw discord with his philosophy.
Shera and Victorious make a common argument Christians make that I think is very superficial. Namely that if you dont believe you will be judged why treat ppl well, why not go out and try to screw everyone over and always seek pleasure. To me that is just a false proposition, I chose and want to be good because that is what I want to be, even if no one will judge me ever and if my life ends and thats it, I would still rather leave a positive mark. If your moral code is solely based on an idea of continuing life or judgment then I think it is that person who has to re-evaluate his stance. I choose to do good, I am not compelled.
I think everyone would admit that a lot of supernaturalism was added to the original Buddhism and ppl still consider that Buddhism, so if some of it is removed why does it stop being Buddhism. In the end its just curious conversation and I do think a lot of you are way too fundamentalist that it has to be one way or another.
Are you asserting if there was no future life it is OK to murder your family, murder other human beings, steal, rape, lie, take drugs, etc?
Your view expressed does not accord with that of the Buddha. The Buddha said immorality brings harm & suffering, here & now, and morality brings happiness & benefit, here & now.
The Buddha taught people want to be happy, here, now, today!
Also, paragraphs 24 and 25, here:
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books9/Bhikkhu_Bodhi_Mahatanhasankhaya_Sutta.htm
Why do the right thing? Because it's the right thing to do. Why is it the right thing to do? Because some supposedly wise man said it is, and I, too, believe that it is the right thing to do.
What I'm seeing in these answers is "because". But if it's all "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing", if it all goes black at the end, it doesn't matter to anyone except those who individually make it matter.
I think it's over on the other thread, the "Why I believe" thread, that Jason posts about a "stream of consciousness" that is not a soul or a solid identity, but passes "like a flame from one candle to another". I can deal with that. That works for me.
Like Western Existentialism, it matters if and only if individuals decide that they want to make it matter, "because they do". Otherwise, as Mick Jagger said, "Paint it Black".
Most non-rebirthers learned their Buddhism through Asian teachers.
My view is the opposite is true. Rebirth fundamentalism is found in Westerners.
The rigidity of Western thinking, culture & religious roots is reborn in Western Buddhism.
There are plenty of people that have adopted it as a lifestyle. Christopher Hitchens comes to mind, as well as those mentioned above.
But why even bother to meditate?
(Just to add some levity here, I've switched over to mantra and I'm leaning heavily toward Pure Land.)
Jason's quote from the other thread:
"Jason said:
Thus, there can theoretically be continuity between lives without having to posit some type of permanent, unchanging consciousness that travels from life to life. That's why the term vinnanasota or 'stream of consciousness' is often used to describe the flow of conscious experience, even when presented within the context of rebirth."
I have never met one Tibetan lama, ever, who has not cheerfully accepted my non belief in rebirth
In fact, I even know a Tibetan lama that does not believe in rebirth himself
The rebirth fundamentalism is primarily Western
A primary difference between Asians and Westerners is a lack of aggression & fundamentalism
I can remember a friend saying to a Tibetan tulku: "I can't accept rebirth beliefs" and the tulku laughed and said " Oh don't worry about other lives, this is the one that's important !"
I cheerfully accept your non-belief in rebirth. Whatever floats your boat.
I don't appreciate the use of the term "rebirth fundamentalism". That, too, strikes me as pompous and rude.
One thing we can agree on is the aim of getting out of the cycle of rebirths is the the right path.
--Kalama Sutta
My understanding, which has been influenced by my discussions with my teacher and other practitioners within the Tibetan tradition, is that the Buddha never specifically questioned rebirth in the Suttas - so getting bogged down about it is clearly not wise. The quote above is the first of the Four Solaces from the Kalama Sutta - which also contains lots of wonderful suggestions and instructions on what my teacher summarises as the importance of " free inquiry ".
"My" teachers from two different traditions have told me not to become intimidated by what other people say in general ... but to just keep practising !
:buck:
My point is regarding "the extreme of nihilism". Some of the interpretations of Buddhism that I find here, and finding them reflected in some of the posts in this thread and others, strike me as leading to "the extreme of nihilism". So I have chosen to take the rhetorical stance that the extreme of nihilism leads to a nihilistic lifestyle and a nihilistic approach to life. There are times in a Buddhist's life in which they need something to give them hope or faith, and idea of the passage of the "stream of consciousness" from life to life as explained in my quotation of Jason above, all taken together, are things that I can use to generate faith and confidence when I have that particular need. The extreme of nihilism, taken to its logical conclusion, would seem to be saying that when it all goes black, it all goes black and that's it. So, rhetorically at least, the extreme of nihilism removes any purpose at all from the practice of Buddhism beyond the personal existential decision to practice for the sake of virtue or the sake of personal peace of mind, or for the sake of having compassion for other people.
A belief in passage of the stream of consciousness from lifetime to lifetime can provide crucial motivation for those who can't find motivation anywhere else.
I am not talking about belief in a self or soul that has any fixed characteristics passing from lifetime to lifetime. I am just taking the rhetorical position that the extreme of nihilism leads to precisely that- nihilism.
Basically, what the Buddha is saying is that it doesn't matter what your metaphysical beliefs are, what matters is that you follow the practical path he has laid out for you. A practical path that you can only follow right here, right now.
It just seems impossible to believe that you can experience something without actually going through the experience. You can meditate and get a vision of flying a plane....but go fly a real plane and things are a lot different.
I think a lot of ppl here are holding on to their truth...and arguing that it is the ultimate truth. Nobody has a monopoly on ultimate truth.
Acording to Buddhism reality is a subjective experience that "arises in the six exists in the six and ends in the six" the six being the six sense doors.
Buddhism teaches that everything is illusion there is no truth to any fenomena other than that which we ascribe them.
Yet in your argument you seem to say there is an objective truth that can be experiensed subjectivley?
So explain to me what defines reality for you?