Its said that if one claims to be Enlightened, then he isnt, and buddha also never said he was so...

N2B

My question is: How did people know he was enlightened?
Many traditions state today that if one claims to be enlightened then you probably are NOT..
And also some say that an enlightened being wouldnt brag that he was enlightened..
So how did people find out that buddha was enlightened?
I know he set off to teach but was there prove about his enlightenment? or does it come under 'having faith'

N2B

Like, when did he become known as Buddha - the awakened one!!
Did he say himself that he was enlightened? because if so, then why did people believe him, and if not then it seems like a faith system?

(By the way, this is just a general wondering, i dont want to get people mad - just curious)

Malachy12

Lol, I thought of a random memory when I read this. I was in SanFran a couple of years back for pride parade. We were near the front of the road, hoping to catch candy or bracelets, when suddenly a progression of monks started to walk by. There was a man dressed as a big Buddha. My gf wanted to tease me so she remarked "Look there's Buddha, he's throwing out enlightenment, you better go catch some!"
I shot back, "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill the Buddha!"

This whole question depends on how we each interpret enlightenment, and whether it is important to us if Buddha was even a real person.

Vajraheart

Actually, the Buddha did say he was enlightened. He didn't call it enlightenment, but he did say, "I am awake." The word for awake is Buddha. Thus he became known as the Buddha and his path became known as Buddhism. You might as well say that he is known as enlightened, through his own exclamation of it, and this path is known as enlightenism.

N2B

Good answers already. Thanks

KhalilBodhi

And, here my friend, is a link to the sutta and commentary wherein the Lord buddha first proclaimed his enlightenment: http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Pesala/Dhammacakka/dhammacakka.html

taiyaki

if someone claims to be enlightened, hit them on the face and see what they do.

the only way to know if someone is enlightened is if you yourself are.
then you can test them with a koan (if they know of zen). each koan is kind of like
a level of realization.

Vajraheart

taiyaki! LMAO! I'm too fast bro... I'll just duck and do a leg sweep! But, alas... that's my martial arts training at work, having little to do with Buddhism, unless you make it so.

I do know the sound of one hand clapping though!! ROFL!!

Cloud

First we have to define enlightenment. For the Buddha, it meant freedom or liberation from all the fetters, from all of the suffering of the world. Seeing life with clarity but not creating self/other duality or ownership, recognizing that grasping impermanent phenomena can only lead to frustration. When others saw this liberation in Siddhartha Gautama, they called him the Buddha, and they followed his teachings to the same end.

Enlightenment isn't gaining anything or becoming anything, it's clearly seeing what you already are (or aren't) and the mind coming into harmony with its true nature; the true nature of every transient thing.

upekka

My question is: How did people know he was enlightened?

at His first sermon, one of the ascetic of the 'five ascetics who were friends of ascetic Sidhartha Gouthama before his enlightenment' was awaken to the Truth and he did not need anymore explanation to prove Buddha was Buddha

in otherwords, when he got the Noble Right View, there was no problems, questions anymore about the 'enlightenment' or the 'enlightenment of Buddha'


Many traditions state today that if one claims to be enlightened then you probably are NOT..


probably means not for sure
so, that claim is not for sure

And also some say that an enlightened being wouldnt brag that he was enlightened..

how far their claim 'the some say' is for sure

So how did people find out that buddha was enlightened?

gain the Noble Right View
there will be no problems, no questions anymore
one knows and one sees

I know he set off to teach but was there prove about his enlightenment? or does it come under 'having faith'

if one is with the Noble Right View it is not just 'having faith'
it is firm confidence (acala saddha),

in otherwords, nothing can change his knowledge of Truth or the reality of
six sense bases, five aggregates, six elements

xabir

The contemplatives of the old were very open about their attainments, as it was helpful to know who had what area of expertise, so if you want to seek out a master of insight, you know who to look for, if you want to seek out a master of samadhi, you know who to look for, if you want to seek out a master of powers, you know who to look for. Buddha was open about his attainment, his students were all open as well.

The taboo about attainments is a rather recent thing.

Vajraheart

Hi Xabir,

Yes, I think you're right.

Vajraheart

I think it was mentioned in one of the hindu scriptures though, that, "he who knows, doesn't know and he who doesn't know, knows." Which is just a cryptic internal paradox. I mean, when you are aware of being aware, you know it! I think the quote was more talking about those that have a closed fist mentality and aren't open to new ideas. Like the whole metaphor of a full cup can't take anymore water... or you can't put the ocean in the cup but you can throw the cup into the ocean kind of thing.

Vajraheart

But, when you're liberated, you definitely know that you're liberated!

newtech

My question is: How did people know he was enlightened?
Many traditions state today that if one claims to be enlightened then you probably are NOT..
And also some say that an enlightened being wouldnt brag that he was enlightened..
So how did people find out that buddha was enlightened?
I know he set off to teach but was there prove about his enlightenment? or does it come under 'having faith'

a)It is a matter of credibility, coherence and quality of the product:

-He had flawless behavior
-He had flawless coherence and communication/debate skills.
-He create completely new theories in a brilliant way, not just derivative work.
-The perfect knowledge and structured order he had about complex topics like human cognition gives a strong impression that it was knowledge adquired via direct experience.
-The path he create leading to nirvana its linear. And happends in the same way to pretty much everyone, with very marked characteristics in each stage. So people where able to hear what he said and then experience it.
-He had special set of skills visible to everyone, like being able to meditate for 7 days straight without breaks (according to suttas).

b) yes, he said he was an arahant, fully awakened.

"For I am an arahant in the world;
I, the unexcelled teacher.
I, alone, am rightly self-awakened.
Cooled am I,unbound."

Mn 26

Vajraheart

Newtech! Freakin' awesome man... LOVE IT!! So happy to be Buddhist. Bless the muni, bless the muni... so grounded, so not airy fairy, so not new age mumbo jumbo. AWESOME!! Clear... brilliant!

DhammaDhatu

if someone claims to be enlightened, hit them on the face and see what they do.

i have been doing this to "you" ever since "you" joined here

:-/

DhammaDhatu

-He had flawless behavior
-He had flawless coherence and communication/debate skills.
-He create completely new theories in a brilliant way, not just derivative work.
-The perfect knowledge and structured order he had about complex topics like human cognition gives a strong impression that it was knowledge adquired via direct experience.

well, that counts out the 3 hours of psycho-babble videos Xabir posted, which cost me around 1.5GBs in download

:eek2:

DhammaDhatu

Good answers already. Thanks

generally, most of the affirmative answers you receive here are by those who give the impression they believe they are enlightened and excitedly babble on about their "personal" attainments & visions about their past lives and "true self"

:sawed:

santhisouk

"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge of the recollection of past lives.

"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge of the passing away and re-appearance of beings

"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, the monk directs and inclines it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations.

"His heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, is released from the fermentation of sensuality, the fermentation of becoming, the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.027.than.html

Cloud

@santhisouk, What is that a reply to? Doesn't seem to belong to this thread, got the wrong one maybe?

santhisouk

Its actually a good link that explains how to know if someone is enlightened.

DhammaDhatu

"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge of the recollection of past lives.

no use quoting something if its meaning is not understood

the link is not good

we will notice at the link the Buddha gave this teaching to Brahmin laypeople, who, such as yourself, interpret what was said according to their interpretation

"past lives" is "past dwellings", "past homes" or "past abodes". it does not mean "past lives"

this is a mistranslation by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Achariya Buddhaghosa in his Vissudhimagga explains this to be "past becomings"

"Becoming" is a mental state or one of the three asavas

santhisouk

interesting. Thanks DD. You rock! :rocker:

DhammaDhatu

thanks

Vajraheart

Nah, we have past lives.

Cloud

Let's not turn this into a debate on rebirth. Back to topic please.

santhisouk

They know he was enlightened because a whole mass of people (thousands) of all professions and castes.. simply gave up their worldly views, possessions, and chose to follow him, giving up their lives basically, to live the contemplative lifestyle.

Vajraheart

Well, plenty do that for cults over the years. I think it's deeper than that, it's in the experience of his teachings.

DhammaDhatu

My question is: How did people know he was enlightened? I know he set off to teach but was there prove about his enlightenment? or does it come under 'having faith'

My opinion is it is just faith. Whether he was good looking, made others feel good, displayed supernormal feats, could sit in meditation for day, could read your mind, etc, all these things are just "faith".

Why? Because enlightenment is the various understandings that can end suffering.

It follows we can only verify enlightenment when we ourselves understand what suffering is and the way to end it.

This is the most basic Dhamma principle, namely, we verify the Dhamma ourself.

Regards

santhisouk

I think it's deeper than that, it's in the experience of his teachings

Yes of course. To answer "how did they know he was enlightened?"... It came to a point where "they" (those that chose to follow him and became enlightened because of it), turned into a large mass of people.. thus "they" knew because they too are enlightened.

Vajraheart

In the Buddhas case, yes of course.

pegembara

The 1st ascetic he met, Upaka, did not believed him when he made his declaration
Neither did his companions initially. So yes, the initial step is faith in the Buddha but following the N8FP should lead to confidence in the Dhamma.

Quote

The Buddha replied: "I have no teacher, one like me does not exist in all the world, for I am the Peerless Teacher, the Arahat. I alone am Supremely Enlightened. Quenching all defilements, Nibbâna’s calm have I attained. I go to the city of Kâsi (Benares) to set in motion the Wheel of Dhamma. In a world where blindness reigns, I shall beat the Deathless Drum."

"Friend, you then claim you are a universal victor," said Upaka. The Buddha replied: "Those who have attained the cessation of defilements, they are, indeed, victors like me. All evil have I vanquished. Hence I am a victor."

Upaka shook his head, remarking sarcastically, "It may be so, friend," and took a bypath. The Buddha continued his journey, and in gradual stages reached the Deer Park at Isipatana. The five ascetics, seeing the Buddha from afar, discussed among themselves: "Friends, here comes the ascetic Gotama who gave up the struggle and turned to a life of abundance and luxury. Let us make no kind of salutation to him." But when the Buddha approached them, they were struck by his dignified presence and they failed in their resolve. One went to meet him and took his almsbowl and robe, another prepared a seat, still another brought him water. The Buddha sat on the seat prepared for him, and the five ascetics then addressed him by name and greeted him as an equal, saying, "âvuso" (friend).

The Buddha said, "Address not the Tathâgata (Perfect One) by the word ‘âvuso.’ The Tathâgata, monks, is a Consummate One (Arahat), a Supremely Enlightened One. Give ear, monks, the Deathless has been attained. I shall instruct you, I shall teach you the Dhamma; following my teaching you will know and realize for yourselves even in this lifetime that supreme goal of purity for the sake of which clansmen retire from home to follow the homeless life." Thereupon the five monks said: "Friend Gotama, even with the stern austerities, penances, and self-torture you practised, you failed to attain the superhuman vision and insight. Now that you are living a life of luxury and self-indulgence, and have given up the struggle, how could you have reached superhuman vision and insight?"

Then replied the Buddha: "The Tathâgata has not ceased from effort and reverted to a life of luxury and abundance. The Tathâgata is a Supremely Enlightened One. Give ear, monks, the Deathless has been attained. I shall instruct you. I shall teach you the Dhamma."

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhism/bud_lt13.htm

Sabre

The taboo about attainments is a rather recent thing.

No, this "taboo" has been there always. It is against the precepts to report a stage of enlightenment to a lay person, let alone claiming it in public. The suttas where they are open are usually from within the monks community and mostly in presence of the Buddha himself.

Sunakkhatta the Licchavin heard that "A large number of monks, it seems, have declared final gnosis in the Blessed One's presence: 'We discern that "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world."'" Then Sunakkhatta the Licchavin went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "I have heard, lord, that a large number of monks have declared final gnosis in the Blessed One's presence: 'We discern that "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world."' Now, have they rightly declared final gnosis, or is it the case that some of them have declared final gnosis out of over-estimation?"

"Sunakkhatta, of the monks who have declared final gnosis in my presence... it is the case that some have rightly declared final gnosis, whereas others have declared final gnosis out of over-estimation. As for those who have rightly declared final gnosis, that is their truth. As for those who have declared final gnosis out of over-estimation, the thought occurs to the Tathagata, 'I will teach them the Dhamma.' Yet there are cases when the thought has occurred to the Tathagata, 'I will teach them the Dhamma,' but there are worthless men who come to him having formulated question after question, so that his thought, 'I will teach them the Dhamma,' changes into something else."

10jellis

I think people who brag about being enlightened aren't truly enlightened but people who are asked and they say they probably are (not just are) are, but will keep it to themselves unless asked.