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Interesting Discussion On Buddhism on Another Forum(What do you think about Buddhism?)
DaltheJigsaw
Mountain View Veteran
What do you think about Buddhism? Is it good or evil?
For instance:
If you don't think this is downright satanic, I question what would you think satanic.
Wrathful Deities in Buddhist Worship and Devotion
Images of the wrathful deities are kept in the homes and temples of Tibetan Buddhists to protect them against evil influences and remind them to destroy passion and evil in themselves. In general Buddhist practice, sculptures and thangkas are intended as temporary dwellings for the spiritual beings into which Buddhism projects its analysis of the nature of the world. They are thus not just aesthetic objects but actual dwellings for the energies projected into them with the aid of mantras. The power of those energies can then be directed towards the Buddhist goal. The wrathful deities, though benevolent, are represented in visual arts as hideous and ferocious in order to instill terror in evil spirits which threaten the dharma.
The wrathful deities can also be a focus of Buddhist devotion and worship. "The dharmapalas are worshiped in the mgon khang, a subterranean room, the entrance to which is often guarded by stuffed wild yaks or leopards. Priests wear special vestments and use ritual instruments often made of human bone or skin. Worship includes the performance of masked dances ('cham)."
"External offerings" made to the wrathful deities differ from those provided to tranquil deities and are traditionally six in number: a cemetary flower, incense of singed flesh, lamp burning human fat (or a substitute), scent of bile, blood (usually symbolized by red water) and human flesh (usually symbolized by parched barley flour and butter realistically colored and modeled). Similarly, the "internal offering" or Offering of the Five Senses given to wrathful deities is a skull cup containing a heart, tongue, nose, pair of eyes, and pair of ears. In Tibetan texts, these are human organs, but in actual ceremonies barley-flour-and-butter replicas are used instead.
This is just not true. There is no "salvation" in Buddhism and if there were you wouldn't get it by "believing" in Buddha. You attain enlightenment through your own efforts. You accept the Four Noble Truths and then follow the Eightfold Path.
Four Noble Truths:
1. Life means suffering.
2. The origin of suffering is attachment.
3. The cessation of suffering is attainable.
4. The path to the cessation of suffering is the Eightfold Path.
Eightfold Path:
1. Right View
2. Right Intention
3. Right Speech
4. Right Action
5. Right Livelihood
6. Right Effort
7. Right Mindfulness
8. Right Concentration
If you want to know more, there are lots of great books out here, and you can check this site out: [link to www.thebigview.com]
I've long thought that the greatest distortion of Buddhism is the teaching that the goal of nirvana is to cease to exist as an individual, to cease existence completely.
There is great truth in the teaching about escaping the wheel of reincarnation, but it's not about ceasing to exist, it's about the knowledge that this sub-universe is a prison with human souls chained to the wheel lifetime after lifetime. There is a greater existence beyond the prison. I think that was the Buddha's contribution to the reformation of Hinduism. The truth of the teaching was sadly lost long ago, unfortunately.
Like all other religions Buddhism was co-opted and corrupted and turned into a tool of power and control by those whose goal was not spiritual enlightenment but power and control.
Buddhism is as full of dogma and distortion of the truth as any other religion.
note: I think it's more accurate to call the Tibetan sorcery Lamaism.
A lot more here:
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1321202/pg2
For instance:
If you don't think this is downright satanic, I question what would you think satanic.
Wrathful Deities in Buddhist Worship and Devotion
Images of the wrathful deities are kept in the homes and temples of Tibetan Buddhists to protect them against evil influences and remind them to destroy passion and evil in themselves. In general Buddhist practice, sculptures and thangkas are intended as temporary dwellings for the spiritual beings into which Buddhism projects its analysis of the nature of the world. They are thus not just aesthetic objects but actual dwellings for the energies projected into them with the aid of mantras. The power of those energies can then be directed towards the Buddhist goal. The wrathful deities, though benevolent, are represented in visual arts as hideous and ferocious in order to instill terror in evil spirits which threaten the dharma.
The wrathful deities can also be a focus of Buddhist devotion and worship. "The dharmapalas are worshiped in the mgon khang, a subterranean room, the entrance to which is often guarded by stuffed wild yaks or leopards. Priests wear special vestments and use ritual instruments often made of human bone or skin. Worship includes the performance of masked dances ('cham)."
"External offerings" made to the wrathful deities differ from those provided to tranquil deities and are traditionally six in number: a cemetary flower, incense of singed flesh, lamp burning human fat (or a substitute), scent of bile, blood (usually symbolized by red water) and human flesh (usually symbolized by parched barley flour and butter realistically colored and modeled). Similarly, the "internal offering" or Offering of the Five Senses given to wrathful deities is a skull cup containing a heart, tongue, nose, pair of eyes, and pair of ears. In Tibetan texts, these are human organs, but in actual ceremonies barley-flour-and-butter replicas are used instead.
This is just not true. There is no "salvation" in Buddhism and if there were you wouldn't get it by "believing" in Buddha. You attain enlightenment through your own efforts. You accept the Four Noble Truths and then follow the Eightfold Path.
Four Noble Truths:
1. Life means suffering.
2. The origin of suffering is attachment.
3. The cessation of suffering is attainable.
4. The path to the cessation of suffering is the Eightfold Path.
Eightfold Path:
1. Right View
2. Right Intention
3. Right Speech
4. Right Action
5. Right Livelihood
6. Right Effort
7. Right Mindfulness
8. Right Concentration
If you want to know more, there are lots of great books out here, and you can check this site out: [link to www.thebigview.com]
I've long thought that the greatest distortion of Buddhism is the teaching that the goal of nirvana is to cease to exist as an individual, to cease existence completely.
There is great truth in the teaching about escaping the wheel of reincarnation, but it's not about ceasing to exist, it's about the knowledge that this sub-universe is a prison with human souls chained to the wheel lifetime after lifetime. There is a greater existence beyond the prison. I think that was the Buddha's contribution to the reformation of Hinduism. The truth of the teaching was sadly lost long ago, unfortunately.
Like all other religions Buddhism was co-opted and corrupted and turned into a tool of power and control by those whose goal was not spiritual enlightenment but power and control.
Buddhism is as full of dogma and distortion of the truth as any other religion.
note: I think it's more accurate to call the Tibetan sorcery Lamaism.
A lot more here:
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1321202/pg2
0
Comments
I was really got sick about Buddhism when I stumbled upon a passage in the "Lotus Sutra" that a great Buddha named Medicine Buddha wants a burning human body as the most precious sacrifice offered to him.
I was shocked.
The Lotus Sutra is one of the most important scriptures in Buddhism (not just Tibetan) and you cannot question its
authority, because it's like questiong the authority of the Bible in Christianity.
I thought, can it be real? that a great Buddha wants a burning human body as most precious thing offered to him?
And after that, I watched in a documentary some Vietnamese monks practicing this, burning their body and disintegrate it in front of the Buddha that they believe.
It was sick.
Is this true?
http://www.sgilibrary.org/search_dict.php?id=1406
the 23rd chapter of the LS as translated by Burton Watson:
http://nichiren.info/buddhism/lotussutra/text/chap23.html
much of the lotus sutra is in the form of parables. it does not support self immolation. i have heard a story of the buddha in which he encounters a dog which has a very bad wound with maggots infesting it. wanting to help the dog, but not wanting to hurt the maggots, he cuts off a chunk of his flesh for the maggots to feast on. he then uses his own tongue to transport the maggots to the flesh. likewise, this is not to be taken literally.
here is an explanation of this chapter:
http://www.rk-world.org/publications/buddhismfortoday_B23.aspx
"To burn one's arms symbolizes one's indomitable spirit in practicing the teaching. More accurately, it is the manifestation of one's spirit in practicing the Law at the risk of one's life. We should assimilate the deep meaning of such expressions as burning one's arms and not be misled by the surface meanings of the words."
Hi Leon,
I have read in a few places in the past that the Lotus Sutra immolation is the inspiration for the self-immolation of monks.
In general, I've never been a fan of the Lotus Sutra which I believe was a later addition to 'buddhism' and didn't originate with the historical Buddha
.
All of these examples can basically be clarified as that happening. When a metaphor becomes a literal dogma.
Now, in regard to your second paragraph. Do you have any evidence for that? Or is it just that it is such a turn-off to you that you want to think that?
Of course there are aspects of all traditions that work, it's just about being sincere in ones own pursuit of clarity and contemplation from within that is very important in order to cut through the misunderstandings turned into tradition.
For instance, that saying in the Lotus Sutra about burning a human body I think is more in reference to the yogic fire that happens in deep meditation. You can feel it when you meditate, the body actually burning through the dross. I've felt that, the burning on a deep level while meditating. Plus this metaphor has a tradition in yogic writings as a metaphor, both Hindu and Buddhist. You don't see Tibetan Yogi's burning their bodies, they instead see it as a reference for Tummo practice.
Generally in the past when these texts were written down, they had to cover up the literal meaning with metaphor in order to protect themselves from Brahmins or whatever political powers existed in the time and place, and then a teacher would clarify the meaning for the students. It's sad that certain metaphors have been taken too literally and then a tradition came about due to this misunderstanding.
Yes, it happens in every religion.
Lineage is very important in Buddhism to ensure the actual meaning of the words in the scriptures is passed on. Without the transmission of realization and proper understanding there are lots of teachings that can be misinterpreted, or should we really kill the Buddha if we see him on the road.
The whole thing has always been a turn-off for me because compared to the simplicity and directness of the Pali Canon it reads like fantasy fiction.
However its origins have indeed been questioned before:
"It is a matter of faith in some schools of Buddhism that the sutra contains the words of the historical Buddha. However, most historians believe the sutra was written in the 1st or 2nd century CE, probably by more than one writer."
http://buddhism.about.com/od/mahayanasutras/a/lotussutra.htm
However, some of those practices (making human sacrifices, like you mentioned, Leon) come from ancient tantric practices. Part of Tantric practice in ancient times was sitting on corpses to meditate, wearing human head necklaces, making human or animal sacrifices, drinking from cups made of human skulls, using trumpets made of human thigh bones (they still use thigh-bone trumpets and skull-cups--they're supposed to symbolize impermanence). So that made it's way into Buddhism, Tantric Buddhism. But now usually effigies formed out of butter or flour are used, rather than live beings.
Nah, but I would admit that humans are quite interesting animal creatures!:)
Involving Satan, the devil, or evil entities in a positive manner. Is that Buddhism? No.
Some of it?
Could be?
Maybe? Lol
i wish more people viewed satan as a metaphor, it's actually a pretty powerful one.
The Satanic Bible even has Nine commandments which are not what people think.
The whole book really focuses on nature and life.
http://www.churchofsatan.com/Pages/NineStatements.html
In Taiwan there is a Buddhist named Xiao Pingshi who believes TB is not real Buddhism, he wrote some books to argue it. Some famous Tibetan Buddhists wrote book (in Chinese) to refute Xiao. The argument became a small storm in Buddhism world several years ago. The books were published in Taiwan.
Here is Xiao's website (in English), sorry there is no English translation of opinions from TB masters.
http://www.a202.idv.tw/English/Book2013/2013.htm
So if you really want to put it in perspective, go on the board and point out that saying "Buddhists" are into demon worship is like saying "Christians" are pagans because they worship saints and think dead people like Mary, the mother of Jesus, can cure them if they pray to her and they have shrines to her in their houses. First, only a certain type of Christian even does that, and second, it's much more complicated than that.
By the way, most Buddhists also condemn the practice of suicide by layperson or monk, including setting oneself on fire.
some satanists follow this ancient deities... what's wrong with that? (appart from delusion of most theists)
It is from the the discussion on the website provided above.
Even after I read the opinions from both side, I still can't assert who is right, but I'm sure two points:
1, Such argument is not bad for Buddhism.
2, Hold yourself. If someone ask sex under the Buddhism flag, kick him unless you really like him.
And there's so much death imagery in TB, which is said to symbolize impermanence. That's all well and good, but the fact is that practices involving corpses, wearing ornaments of human bone or skull necklaces, and so forth, all came from Tantric Hinduism, it's part of the Tantric package. Could any of that be construed as Satanic? Well, some people might see it that way, even if the symbolism within the tradition paints a different picture. Is Satanism actually Satanic? Some of our contributors above say it's not, it's just nature worship, so it seems to be in the eye of the beholder.
@Iron Rabbit A thread on Bon could be interesting. You raise some interesting points.
It's just an ancient ceremony that is no big deal for Protestant Christians, especially fundamentalists. Their service revolves around the altar call.
I think that the body refers to God's mortal embodiment and the blood refers to the atonement of mankind by christ. It is basically a reminder and a reaffirmation of your commitment to christ's teachings.
I have also heard, at least in the mormon faith, that it is somewhat of an equivalent to being baptized. Although, that always confused me because they also said if you were unworthy of the sacrament, that you probably shouldn't take it that week.
And why is wine forbidden? I didn't know that. The Church Council of Greater Seattle, when I was working with them on Native American issues, said wine was prohibited during Prohibition only. They filed a friend-of-the-court brief in support of the Native American Church's use of peyote as a sacrament when the Supreme Court was considering the legality of that. They said they didn't like having their sacrament denied them during Prohibition, so they supported others' use of their sacrament-of-choice. Maybe wine is prohibited only in some churches? I've really got to look into this some more.... :scratch:
edit: @tmottes thank you, T. But still, why would they want to eat a symbol of Christ's embodiment? Eating Jesus is a reaffirmation of your commitment to his teachings? Why do you have to eat him for that, one could devise any manner of ceremony to symbolize reaffirmation of commitment to Jesus' path. (I really don't mean to be dense...)
Here is the entry for Eucharist, or the holy communion.
Sorry if I hijacked the thread temporarily, folks.
I think a lot of these mystical elements were common across cultures, part of mankind's path of evolution. It's the way people thought in ancient times. This makes sense.
So Jesus became the perfect, willing, final sacrifice. The Sacramant is exactly what it appears to be, a watered down sacrificial ritual. It is what replaced the terrified squeals and smell of blood running down the Temple steps. It speaks to the realization that Jesus sacrificed himself not for the Priests or even God, but for us. Metaphor is very powerful. I know the cannabalistic symbolism upsets some people, and that was the charge early Christians were condemned and martyred for. It's also part of what gives the ritual its power.
What do you think about tmottes' thesis, about it being a reflection of a middle eastern tradition of maintaining telepathic contact with the guru? That's in Tibetan tradition, too, though you don't have to eat anyone in order to do it. But idk, maybe in the old days you did have to consume a live sacrifice during an empowerment relating to Guru Yoga.
The strangest ritualistic item I have ever seen was a Tibetan Buddhist Skull cup. The top of someone's skull, chopped and turned over and scooped out to make a drinking cup. It was in the British Museum, along with a bunch of other Tibetan Buddhist stuff. The guide said there was even instructions for the Buddhists on what shape of skull leads to the best cup to drink from. And it was bound up in Tantric Buddhist ritual, not some warlord delivering a final insult to some slain enemy.
Ritual is amazing. We know from preserved caves that people had rituals of blood and sacrifice from the beginning of humanity. I'd say the sacrifice is probably the first, original, and most powerful religious expression. Even in Buddhism, we talk of killing the ego or self, and the whole idea of shaving the head for monks is to sacrifice a part of themselves to show their commitment to Buddha. I'm sure this observation is not original. Anthropologists and Sociologists are probably well aware of it.
Thanks for your thoughts.