Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Sign In Register
Examples: Monday, today, last week, Mar 26, 3/26/04
Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.

Where do all the enlightened go?

ddrishiddrishi
edited September 2011 in Faith & Religion
With millions of people across the world practicing their religion and progressing towards enlightenment, how is it that we don’t ever come across a single person alive who has attained enlightenment? Where do all the enlightened go?

Comments

  • GuiGui Veteran
    This question presupposes that a state of being can be permanent. I think there are people here and there at any given moment who are enlightened. It's a matter of timing.
  • ThailandTomThailandTom Veteran
    edited September 2011
    From what I have read from the dalai lama, if you become one of the arya, freely libertaed, you enter a heavenly realm. However, you are still subject to karma you generate in the present, future and even the past, so you could again decend into different realms.

    Nothing is permanent...
  • GuyCGuyC Veteran
    edited September 2011
    Hi All,
    From what I have read from the dalai lama, if you become one of the arya, freely libertaed, you enter a heavenly realm. However, you are still subject to karma you generate in the present, future and even the past, so you could again decend into different realms.

    Nothing is permanent...
    According to the Pali Canon, it is impossible for an Ariya (Noble One) to descend into the lower realms (i.e. animal realm, ghost realm, hell realm). They are destined for Nibbana.

    As for the Arahants, they are living their last life ever. Once their body runs out of steam in this lifetime, they are not reborn in any realm ever again.

    Metta,

    Guy
  • GuyCGuyC Veteran
    edited September 2011
    Hi Ddrishi,
    With millions of people across the world practicing their religion and progressing towards enlightenment, how is it that we don’t ever come across a single person alive who has attained enlightenment? Where do all the enlightened go?
    If you met an Enlightened (Awakened) person, how would you know that they were Awakened?

    Metta,

    Guy
  • ThailandTomThailandTom Veteran
    Damn, I shall have to dig out the text tht the dalai lama wrote!! lol. But yea, I think right now it is not so important, but he did say tht they are even subject to past karma, past life karma, they have a consciousness so why not!
  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
    With millions of people across the world practicing their religion and progressing towards enlightenment, how is it that we don’t ever come across a single person alive who has attained enlightenment? Where do all the enlightened go?

    They're all over the place. Much of your own Buddhist practice will be learning to see what is already in front of you.

  • ddrishiddrishi
    Hi Ddrishi,
    With millions of people across the world practicing their religion and progressing towards enlightenment, how is it that we don’t ever come across a single person alive who has attained enlightenment? Where do all the enlightened go?
    If you met an Enlightened (Awakened) person, how would you know that they were Awakened?

    Metta,

    Guy
    Well, if I am told about anyone to be an enlightened person, I will believe him to be so and would love to learn a few things from him. But the problem is that I have not come across anyone making such a claim about himself or anyone else, except, of course, the Buddha.
  • ddrishiddrishi
    This question presupposes that a state of being can be permanent. I think there are people here and there at any given moment who are enlightened. It's a matter of timing.
    When we talk about enlightenment of Buddha, we certainly do not talk about a state of being which refers to any given moment.
  • YishaiYishai Veteran
    "You" go into the ground. This stream of conciousness, however, I do not know.
  • GuiGui Veteran
    This question presupposes that a state of being can be permanent. I think there are people here and there at any given moment who are enlightened. It's a matter of timing.
    When we talk about enlightenment of Buddha, we certainly do not talk about a state of being which refers to any given moment.
    ddrishi, I truly don't understand what you mean by this. Could you explain a bit more? Thanks, Gui

  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited September 2011
    how is it that we don’t ever come across a single person alive who has attained enlightenment?
    How do you know you haven't?


    http://www.diamond-sutra.com/diamond_sutra_text/page9.html

  • TalismanTalisman Veteran
    The title of this thread sounds like a koan. :om:

    In my understanding, the awoken ones don't "go" anywhere. They have transecended and gained liberation from all comings and goings.

    Also, Aryas are not allowed to proclaim their level of attainment to lay people. In the suttas I don't think there is ever a time where a monk says "I am an arahant." The Buddha proclaims, "he is an arahant, he has laid down the burden" etc. The Buddha has mastered the power to "know the minds of others," specifically he is able to know whether or not the person is enlightened or not. This is not necesarily the case for the Arahants.

    As to whether or not there are Arahants in our world today ... maybe, maybe not. I imagine it would be very difficult to follow the path of the disciple without a living Buddha to guide you. Also, we live in a day and age that is full of doubt, distraction, and confusion especially regarding religious or spirtual pursuits. Not many people believe that ethics or focus or wisdom are worth the effort to cultivate. People are more interested in fame and wealth and power and partying and sex.
  • I_AM_THATI_AM_THAT Veteran
    As it has been said... "We are all enlightened beings - we just don't know it."

    I have had the opportunity to meet several teachers that were special beings; special in the way they looked and the way they interacted with their surroundings. You could tell they had a certain presence about them...
  • jlljll Veteran
    tad.....
    wrong question.
    i believe you refer to arahants who passed away.
    (As for those still alive, I dont have their addresses,
    try to google 'enlightened beings', bad joke, i know)
    There is no enlightened beings to be anywhere.
    Anatta, remember.
    Nirvana means extinguished ie no more.
    So the answer is nowhere.
  • ddrishiddrishi
    This question presupposes that a state of being can be permanent. I think there are people here and there at any given moment who are enlightened. It's a matter of timing.
    When we talk about enlightenment of Buddha, we certainly do not talk about a state of being which refers to any given moment.
    ddrishi, I truly don't understand what you mean by this. Could you explain a bit more? Thanks, Gui

    @Gui What I understood by your comment was that enlightenment is not a permanent phenomenon, and that a person can be enlightened or awakened at one moment but not so at another moment. In other words, enlightenment may come and go. What my comment meant was: When we refer to enlightenment of Buddha, we don't really attribute the same meaning to it. I think you are referring to enlightenment as mindfulness in general but I am not sure.
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    @ddrishi wrote: Well, if I am told about anyone to be an enlightened person, I will believe him to be so and would love to learn a few things from him.
    __________________

    You will believe just because you are told? How does this dovetail with the Buddhist emphasis on "find out for yourself?" If you were told, would that allay suffering as suggested by the third noble truth? And, even if you were told and even if it were true, wouldn't you still have to practice in order to know what was true?

    And since, as you point out, we don't walk down a crowded street and see some man or woman wearing a halo or a button announcing, "Yoo-hoo, I'm Buddha!", wouldn't you be better served learning as much as you could from circumstances and people who arose in your life ... you know, the ones who don't appear to be Buddha at all?

    I imagine getting our own heads screwed on right might be more convincing than checking out whose isn't.
  • GuiGui Veteran
    This might be a really stupid question. But I never took the enlightenment of a bodhisattva to be something that lasted from the moment of awakening and liberation until.. well, whenever. Is it a general understanding, or truth, of buddhists that The Buddha didn't have to be enlightened from moment to moment once it happened the first time? This is troublesome for me to explain. Is it a possibility that The Buddha could have returned to his un-enlightened state of being?
  • MindGateMindGate United States Veteran
    edited September 2011
    Hmmm. Interesting topic. I think that before we answer a lot of these questions we should first answer: What is enlightenment? Me personally, the idea seems kind of abstract and I don't think we'd really know enlightenment until it hits us.
  • ddrishiddrishi
    This might be a really stupid question. But I never took the enlightenment of a bodhisattva to be something that lasted from the moment of awakening and liberation until.. well, whenever. Is it a general understanding, or truth, of buddhists that The Buddha didn't have to be enlightened from moment to moment once it happened the first time? This is troublesome for me to explain. Is it a possibility that The Buddha could have returned to his un-enlightened state of being?
    @Gui: Now we understand each others point of view loud and clear. I agree with you totally that enlightenment is not something which you acquire permanently. It is like tubelight which works so long you dont switch it off. Same way, enlightenment would stay with us only so long as our conduct is compatible to it. Therefore, it seems that enlightenment is not a lable but a phenomenon, and it would be illogical to call anyone as enlightened in perpetuity.
  • GuiGui Veteran
    @ddrishi Thank you for explaining what I was trying to say in a most clear way. :thumbup:
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited September 2011
    how is it that we don’t ever come across a single person alive who has attained enlightenment?
    our karma

    if we have never pursued the spiritual path deeply, such as staying in practice monasteries, then it may be difficult for us to ever meet an enlightened being
    But the problem is that I have not come across anyone making such a claim about himself or anyone else, except, of course, the Buddha.
    to make 'claims' in inappropriate. to say "I am enlightened" does not make sense

    again, it is our karma that, in situations we create, that will lead us to discern enlightened beings

    for example, there is the phrase: "when the student is ready the teacher appears". similarly, when the mind is ready, enlightened beings will appear

    regards :)

  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited September 2011
    As for the Arahants, they are living their last life ever. Once their body runs out of steam in this lifetime, they are not reborn in any realm ever again.
    According to the Pali scriptures, 'being', 'becoming' or 'existence' (bhava) is a mental formation; an asava (effluent)

    Arahants have ended their 'being' whilst they are alive

    :)
    This mode of perception is empty of the effluent of sensuality... the effluent of becoming... the effluent of ignorance. And there is just this non-emptiness: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition.' Thus he regards it as empty of whatever is not there. Whatever remains, he discerns as present: 'There is this.' And so this, his entry into emptiness, accords with actuality, is undistorted in meaning, pure — superior & unsurpassed.

    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.121.than.html
  • zenffzenff Veteran
    The way I understand it, enlightenment is something we can not grasp in words and concepts.
    When we talk about it; even when we have articulate thoughts about it; it is like we are searching for darkness with our torch. And obviously we never find it.
    We have to put out the light and darkness will be all around even though we never see it (in the way we see things in the light of our torch).

    We just don’t give enlightenment a thought. We live our lives from moment to moment.

    So where do all the enlightened go?
    Blow out your torch and be with them.

  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    if we have never pursued the spiritual path deeply, such as staying in practice monasteries, then it may be difficult for us to ever meet an enlightened being...
    explained here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.192.than.html

  • zenffzenff Veteran
    edited September 2011
    if we have never pursued the spiritual path deeply, such as staying in practice monasteries, then it may be difficult for us to ever meet an enlightened being...
    Looking for an enlightened being in that way is like looking for darkness with a torch.
  • DhammaDhatuDhammaDhatu Veteran
    edited September 2011
    Looking for an enlightened being in that way is like looking for darkness with a torch.
    as i said, it is our karma

    if we look for our own enlightenment, we will probably meet enlightened beings

    but if we look for enlightened beings (to worship them or something), we may struggle

    regards :)

  • GuyCGuyC Veteran
    Hi Gui,
    Is it a possibility that The Buddha could have returned to his un-enlightened state of being?
    If we are to believe the Pali Canon: No, It is not possible for the Buddha to regress to an un-Enlightened (un-Awakened) state. Nor is it possible for Arahants, Non-Returners, Once-Returners or Stream-Winners to regress. Once you have reached the Goal, or you are on the Path, there is no turning back.

    Metta,

    Guy
  • tjampeltjampel
    edited September 2011
    Looking for an enlightened being in that way is like looking for darkness with a torch.
    as i said, it is our karma

    if we look for our own enlightenment, we will probably meet enlightened beings

    but if we look for enlightened beings (to worship them or something), we may struggle

    regards :)

    I have no problem with the above statement.

    I don't understand this statement below:

    "it is our karma that, in situations we create, that will lead us to discern enlightened beings"

    What kind of being has the ability to discern the quality of enlightenment in other beings? You may be positive you have met an enlightened being; perhaps you have. But how can you know you've met one, assuming that you are not an enlightened being nor close to being one. Does "it is our karma that, in situations we create" refer to stream enterers and arhats only or is it inclusive of other practitioners; if so what faculty allows them to discriminate/discern the enlightened from everyone else?

    Or do I misunderstand the word "discern"; for me discern means correctly discriminate.
  • ddrishiddrishi
    @ddrishi Thank you for explaining what I was trying to say in a most clear way. :thumbup:
    It's nice to see some humour too here!
  • ThailandTomThailandTom Veteran
    If there is consciousness, then there is karma, the liberated one may transcend his or her body, state if you will, but they are still subject to karma. I still cannot find the section of prose where the dalai lama speaks about even the arya actually recieving past karma in past lives when it rippens, so they can decend back through the realms IMO, NOTHING is permanent.
  • GuyCGuyC Veteran
    edited September 2011
    Hi ThailandTom,
    If there is consciousness, then there is karma, the liberated one may transcend his or her body, state if you will, but they are still subject to karma. I still cannot find the section of prose where the dalai lama speaks about even the arya actually recieving past karma in past lives when it rippens, so they can decend back through the realms IMO, NOTHING is permanent.
    IMO - With all respect, Tom, this is a Wrong View. "Sabbe Sankhara Anicca" means "All conditioned phenomena are impermanent". Enlightenment is the realization of the escape from the conditioned/impermanent realms. A liberated mind, once liberated, cannot become unliberated. Enlightenment is a one way ticket, hence "Non-Returners".

    The consciousness of the Arahant (which literally means "Worthy One") is indeed impermanent. However, the Arahant (Worthy One) has permanently eradicated all traces of greed, hatred and delusion. Therefore, greed, hatred and delusion cannot arise in the mind of the Arahant (Worthy One), not ever.

    While it is certainly possible to temporarily cut off the defilements through the practice of Jhana, and it is also very possible that someone might mistake the post-Jhanic mind for an Enlightened mind because of it's apparent purity - It is only when one permanently cuts off the ten fetters that one earns the title of "Arahant" or "Worthy One".
    The Blessed One said: "In whomever the fermentations that defile, that lead to renewed becoming, that give trouble, that ripen in stress, and lead to future birth, aging, & death are not abandoned: Him I call deluded. For it is from not abandoning the fermentations that one is deluded. In whomever the fermentations that defile, that lead to renewed becoming, that give trouble, that ripen in stress, and lead to future birth, aging, & death are abandoned: Him I call undeluded. For it is from abandoning the fermentations that one is undeluded. In the Tathagata, Aggivessana, the fermentations that defile, that lead to renewed becoming, that give trouble, that ripen in stress, and lead to future birth, aging, & death have been abandoned, their root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of existence, not destined for future arising. Just as a palmyra cut off at the crown is incapable of further growth, in the same way in the Tathagata the fermentations that defile, that lead to renewed becoming, that give trouble, that ripen in stress, and lead to future birth, aging, & death have been abandoned, their root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of existence, not destined for future arising."
    "Maha-Saccaka Sutta: The Longer Discourse to Saccaka" (MN 36), translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight, 15 January 2011, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.036.than.html . Retrieved on 21 September 2011.

    Much respect to you Tom, I know you are a very sincere Dhamma practitioner, but I think you are wrong about this one.

    Metta,

    Guy
  • upekkaupekka Veteran
    edited September 2011
    cuts off the ten fetters that one earns the title of "Arahant" or "Worthy One".

    is 'uddacca & kukkucca' in 'panca nivarana' same as 'uddacca' in ten fetters?
    is there any sutta that helps to understand this?

    thanks in advance

  • GuyCGuyC Veteran
    edited September 2011
    Hi Upekka,
    is 'uddacca & kukkucca' in 'panca nivarana' same as 'uddacca' in ten fetters?
    The way I understand it is that the Five Hindrances are specifically those obstacles which block us from Samadhi. We can temporarily suppress the Five Hindrances to enter Samadhi. After emerging from Samadhi, those hindrances might remain absent for a long time (perhaps months). However, the underlying root cause of those hindrances remains, so long as we have not yet had any kind of Awakening experience.

    On the other hand, the Ten Fetters refer to something which underlies the Five Hindrances. Restlessness can be temporarily overcome by any puthujjana, given the right conditions. However, the underlying root cause of Restlessness remains even at the stage of Non-Returner, it is only finally and irreversibly overcome by the Arahant.

    My understanding is that:

    1) The Stream-Winner and Once-Returner no longer have to deal with doubt in their meditation, but still have the other four hindrances to deal with in varying degrees.

    2) The Non-Returner no longer has to deal with doubt, sensual desire or ill-will in their meditation.

    3) Therefore, I believe it is safe to assume that the Arahant, who has overcome the Ten Fetters and the Five Hindrances permanently, should be able to enter Samadhi at will.
    Is there any sutta that helps to understand this?
    I am not sure if there is any Sutta which specifically explains the Five Hindrances in contrast to the Ten Fetters; the above is merely my understanding from what I have read of the Suttas. I could be wrong and I encourage those who are more knowledgeable of the Suttas to correct me.

    Metta,

    Guy
  • MountainsMountains Veteran
    edited September 2011
    is 'uddacca & kukkucca' in 'panca nivarana' same as 'uddacca' in ten fetters?
    is there any sutta that helps to understand this?
    Whew... people wonder why newbies' eyes glaze over... Wow. :)
  • upekkaupekka Veteran
    Hi Upekka,
    is 'uddacca & kukkucca' in 'panca nivarana' same as 'uddacca' in ten fetters?
    The way I understand it is that the Five Hindrances are specifically those obstacles which block us from Samadhi. We can temporarily suppress the Five Hindrances to enter Samadhi. After emerging from Samadhi, those hindrances might remain absent for a long time (perhaps months). However, the underlying root cause of those hindrances remains, so long as we have not yet had any kind of Awakening experience.

    On the other hand, the Ten Fetters refer to something which underlies the Five Hindrances. Restlessness can be temporarily overcome by any puthujjana, given the right conditions. However, the underlying root cause of Restlessness remains even at the stage of Non-Returner, it is only finally and irreversibly overcome by the Arahant.

    My understanding is that:

    1) The Stream-Winner and Once-Returner no longer have to deal with doubt in their meditation, but still have the other four hindrances to deal with in varying degrees.

    2) The Non-Returner no longer has to deal with doubt, sensual desire or ill-will in their meditation.

    3) Therefore, I believe it is safe to assume that the Arahant, who has overcome the Ten Fetters and the Five Hindrances permanently, should be able to enter Samadhi at will.
    Is there any sutta that helps to understand this?
    I am not sure if there is any Sutta which specifically explains the Five Hindrances in contrast to the Ten Fetters; the above is merely my understanding from what I have read of the Suttas. I could be wrong and I encourage those who are more knowledgeable of the Suttas to correct me.

    Metta,

    Guy
    Merrits to you GuyC

    your explanation is more than enough

    however, if there is any Sutta i welcome it too

    Thanks in advance again

  • EpicurusEpicurus
    The real question is what does the word "where" point to, exactly? Where in space? The body is formed of atoms so those go to where atoms go when you bury a body in the ground or when you burn it in fire or whatever else is done to the body.

    If you mean where they are right now, they are in the same places where other kinds of people are.
  • Floating_AbuFloating_Abu Veteran
    With millions of people across the world practicing their religion and progressing towards enlightenment, how is it that we don’t ever come across a single person alive who has attained enlightenment? Where do all the enlightened go?

    There are many enlightened Ones, but to think they go anywhere - or do not go anywhere - is a bit limited IMO

    Namaste,
    Abu
Sign In or Register to comment.