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How Important is a Teacher....

edited July 2006 in Modern Buddhism
and what is the best way to find a good one? I feel a good Buddhist teacher would be so helpful, but I am not really sure how to locate one.

Kim
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Comments

  • edited February 2006
    Good question - I hope the answer isn't " a teacher is vital" because I am one of those working without one, just a more experienced friend to help guide me.
  • edited February 2006
    But your more experienced friend could be considered your teacher. :) Unfortunately, I do not have any experienced Buddhist friends in my area. Just my friends on here!
  • edited February 2006
    Aaaawwwww - I'm sorry - ummmmm - wanna know anything about Wicca? Best I can do I'm afraid! rofl
  • edited February 2006
    I'm pretty much seeking things on my own, too. For me, I think that works better; I'd have a niggling feeling in the back of my mind that I'm being taught to see everything from my teachers' perspective otherwise. Ultimately, didn't Buddha achieve enlightenment alone?
  • edited February 2006
    YogaMama said:
    But your more experienced friend could be considered your teacher. :) Unfortunately, I do not have any experienced Buddhist friends in my area. Just my friends on here!
    The only other Buddhists I know are on here, also. What they've posted and talked about has been plenty enough to nudge me in the right direction. Many of the book purchases I've made have come from suggestions on the board here, and from reading various topics I've learned much, or been directed toward other areas that I'd otherwise not have considered. I'm sure that many of them would be able to help me with any enquiry, should I require something more specific.
  • edited February 2006
    My teacher is life. Along with unicorns and little trumpets and clouds rainbows and cherubs and all the nice things.. etc etc.

    I'm going to hug some trees now

    teehee

    regards,
    X

    P.S.
    I have no teacher either-just those that are here.
  • edited February 2006
    I think...that when the time is right...the student will find the teacher. AND...it/he/she will not be what you expect.

    Be open.
  • edited February 2006
    Hey I truly think that my teacher is actually my wife.
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited February 2006
    YodaMama,

    How important is a teacher? Well, I guess it depends a lot on how good the teacher actually is. I would definitely recommend having one if one were available, though. Otherwise, who knows what Path you'll end up wandering down. It might not be the Buddha's. I mean, if it was so easy for us to find our own way, what would we even need a Buddha for in the first place? The Buddha himself said:
    This Dhamma that I have attained is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, peaceful, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be experienced by the wise. But this generation delights in attachment, is excited by attachment, enjoys attachment. For a generation delighting in attachment, excited by attachment, enjoying attachment, this/that conditionality and dependent co-arising are hard to see. This state, too, is hard to see: the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding. And if I were to teach the Dhamma and if others would not understand me, that would be tiresome for me, troublesome for me.

    -SN VI.1
    What is the best way to find a good one? I would have to say that looking for one is certainly a start [and Buddhist monasteries are where I would look first]. I personally wouldn't count on one just showing up at your house [unless you have already invited them to]. True teachers will be busy practicing the Dhamma themselves, not going door to door advertising their teaching skills. After that, only time will tell if they really are any good or not:
    "Monks, these four traits may be known by means of four [other] traits. Which four?

    "It's through living together that a person's virtue may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning.

    "It's through dealing with a person that his purity may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning.

    "It's through adversity that a person's endurance may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning.

    "It's through discussion that a person's discernment may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning.

    - AN IV.192
    ;)

    Jason
  • NirvanaNirvana Non joiner: __Betteran · than Quiet Places Veteran
    edited February 2006
    Refininement of virtue, purity, endurance, and discernment over the long haul!
    Great post, Elohim!

    Many of us having had wide experience with Christian traditions, I'd like to speak from a classical Christian perspective on this matter of having a Teacher.

    In the Orthodox East, Christ, when depicted in an Icon, is always shown with a Book (symbolizing that he is the Teacher of the Way of Life, the new Moses, who was the bringer of the Law). However, in the Christian West, great theologians are called "Doctors of the Church." ("Doctor" is Latin for "teacher.") For the Orthodox, who have their great Saints, this notion of Doctors of the Church seems wrong.

    My question is this: Is not Buddha the Teacher?

    It may be helpful to find a teacher (with a little "t") or two or three along the way, but doesn't Buddha tell us to be our own guides?

    I have been lucky to find one and will forever feel his stamp on me. He saw something really good in me and helped me a lot, and helped me connect with a greater community where I fit in. However, I don't think it's possible for everyone to find a healthy "match."

    I am suspicious of many who, thinking themselves competent to teach, may only be manipulating others for personal gain. Let's face this fact that there will always be those who prey on those seeking spiritual riches. Books may certainly be said to be safer.

    Good Wishes to All You Who Attend the Lotus Feet of Buddha!

    Nirvana
    ---
  • edited February 2006
    Nirvana said:

    My question is this: Is not Buddha the Teacher?

    It may be helpful to find a teacher (with a little "t") or two or three along the way, but doesn't Buddha tell us to be our own guides?


    I have been lucky to find one and will forever feel his stamp on me. He saw something really good in me and helped me a lot, and helped me connect with a greater community where I fit in. However, I don't think it's possible for everyone to find a healthy "match."

    I am suspicious of many who, thinking themselves competent to teach, may only be manipulating others for personal gain. Let's face this fact that there will always be those who prey on those seeking spiritual riches. Books may certainly be said to be safer.

    Good Wishes to All You Who Attend the Lotus Feet of Buddha!


    Nirvana
    ---
    Nirvana, in the parts of your post that I marked in bold, you have managed to fully explain my opinion in a way far more eloquent than I ever could! That was what I was trying to say in my first post!
  • edited February 2006
    Xrayman said:
    My teacher is life. Along with unicorns and little trumpets and clouds rainbows and cherubs and all the nice things.. etc etc.

    I'm going to hug some trees now

    teehee

    regards,
    X

    P.S.
    I have no teacher either-just those that are here.

    You ARE studying Wicca, aren't you :winkc:
  • edited February 2006
    Elohim said:


    I personally wouldn't count on one just showing up at your house [unless you already invited them to]. True teachers will be busy practicing the Dhamma themselves, not going door to door advertising their teaching skills. After that, only time will tell if they really are any good or not:



    ;)

    Jason
    So do you mean that those Jehova's Witnesses that keep showing up at my door aren't the best teachers to learn from?? :)

    I think I am going to try to find some sort of teacher in my area. I will do some research. And I will just keep talking to my wonderful teachers on this website. :)

    Thanks everyone.
  • edited February 2006
    Well, let us know what you end up doing, Yoda.

    -bf
  • edited February 2006
    I'll definitely keep you all posted on my quest for a good teacher!
  • edited February 2006
    Damn straight you will... If you know what's good for ya.

    -bf
  • edited February 2006
    "Appo Deepo Bhava."

    Buddha
  • edited February 2006
    (Be a light unto thyself.)
  • edited February 2006
    No I'm not studying Wicca, although over the years I've studied some weird sh**.
    here's a small selection.

    Sunspots and their effect on the Ionosphere and why there is a 26-day cycle.
    Radioaesthesia: Detection of waves or vibrations from everything.
    Explosives Ordanance Reconnaissance: Bomb finding.
    Human Biology and Society: Wierd when you find out that i'm an Electronics Engineer.
    Radar and Radio: My speciality.
    Instructional technique: I teach now.

    etc. and etc.

    P.S. you name it. I've investigated it at some stage or another.

    P.P.S. Yes I have studied Wicca when I was about 16. Now I hate the stuff-anything made of cane gives me the irrits. teehee!
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Somewhere in the UK, Central-Southern.... Moderator
    edited February 2006
    Xrayman said:
    P.P.S. Yes I have studied Wicca when I was about 16. Now I hate the stuff-anything made of cane gives me the irrits. teehee!

    Oh good grief....!
  • edited February 2006
    Sorry Xrayman - it was the mention of unicorns - I have an allergy to unicorns. Whenever people tell me about riding them over the rainbows to meet the fairies, I go a funny colour and start spluttering!
  • edited February 2006
    "Retaliate not. Be silent as a cracked gong when you are abused by others. If you do so, I deem that you have already attained Nibbāna although you have not realized Nibbāna."
    Can I have a scripture reference for that? It seems to me that, in general, a whole gong that rings, in any event, is the meaning of the Buddha, not a cracked one.

    The last character in my dharma name is literally a picture of a gong hanging on a wooden frame. It means 'music' or 'joy/bliss'.
  • edited February 2006
    Pride has a price, and only one method of payment;Pain. Do not suffer this affliction in vain. This is forced humbleness which is not your will , but that you might continue to live. To seek humbleness will lessen your pride, that is your will.

    You know you are equal to life , yet cannot create life. Humble thyself, do not reject the very essence that instills you to create.

    Seek your destiny or believe in co-incidence.Good luck is for those that trust in man ,which can only imitate life. Trying to live for the moment ? Will that you do it , for without words you spread the way of life.

    Peace of mind is attainable with devotion to life. Devotion for life is death. this is liking having nothing but good times . Good times are for nothing.

    If you have an experience that repeats itself , you have not yet learned from it. This walking is with death , face death and learn. So easy to trust the reason of man, yet so simple to have faith in life. Faith in life is to face death and the unknown.
    To reason, is to lie to yourself that the unknown is known.

    To be a child divine , for they live not in reason .Tomorrow does not affect children until it is forced upon them. All of mankind truly lives in the moment if child enough.






    Ultimately by having as few tomorrow's as possible , less worry will be the result. For tomorrow is the basis, for all that man has ever created . What might it be that man made for the moment ?

    Realizing that all, through man , is for survival. There is more than surviving. I write this to tell you that heaven is worryless and it is right here and has been all the time. Only to believe that there is more to life than just survival.

    What humans do best is to assume and lie to ourselves. Do we assume that everyone is our brother ? Or that everyone is a stranger , a threat to familiarity. How do we lie ? Is the grass greener on the other side ? How many lies do we tell ourselves, to convince our self's , it is indeed greener.


    Heaven being worry less leaves what ?
    To survive, to think ; No need to.
    How is it one can believe the grass is greener , know it is an illusion and not believe a worryless life is possible. A worryless life has no need for up and down, on and off, in and out, right and wrong, nor anything else made by man. There is no need , not for history or future or any form of reason. Again, there is more than just surviving ; just to believe, is.

    Please do not lie to yourself that you do not just survive.







    (What might be of interest to you in particular )

    To reason is to lie to yourself that the unknown is known.
    Or as i use now - to reason is to retain illusion.
  • edited February 2006
    Hi Catweasel

    Looks like you're no longer paying by the minute.

    You have a real nice day.
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Somewhere in the UK, Central-Southern.... Moderator
    edited February 2006
    horaku said:
    Can I have a scripture reference for that? It seems to me that, in general, a whole gong that rings, in any event, is the meaning of the Buddha, not a cracked one.

    The last character in my dharma name is literally a picture of a gong hanging on a wooden frame. It means 'music' or 'joy/bliss'.

    At the risk of stepping on Buddhafoot's toes, Horaku... here is the scripture reference for that quotation....

    Dhammapada v. 124

    and this is where I found it..... (It's almost at the bottom, but reading the whole thing gives a wonderful lesson....the whole discourse is heart-warming and salutary....)

    Welcome to our Sangha... What brings you here? :)
  • edited March 2006
    Well now, having no personal teacher, I have had to find direction for myself. While this is great for developing trust in oneself (and awakening to one's inner teacher), a good teacher would have been able to point me in the direction I needed to go much quicker. Progress can be slow on one's own. Certainly, if you have a good teacher available (as I do not), by all means use that resource. It is a wonderful boon for one's practice.

    Now, I have heard it said that the best teachers make it their business to put themselves out of business. In other words, the proper role of a teacher is to awaken your inner teacher. It is to deconstruct all the extraneous mental debris of the practitioner and uncover their own light. Once this is done, the practitioner depends less and less on their teacher and abides more and more in illumination. Still, this process is long and difficult, as mental habits can be very subtle and take awhile to reveal themselves. The teacher here is our greatest friend, lending all his or her insight to our practice. This cuts out a lot of fruitless efforts and speeds up our process of development.

    With that said, one must also be wary of the teacher to some extent. Many have been duped, especially here in the west. If one is seeking a teacher on the level of Guru, it is advisable that they do much research and asking around as to the teachers reputation. The Guru has the potential to lead one very quickly, either to success or failure, and because of the nature of the Guru/Disciple relationship, the latter is can have very bad results. If one is more just seeking an advisor, then the caution need not be so high, but one must pay a lot of attention to whether or not the teacher's advice is actually helping or hindering. Also, sometimes the teacher can just be someone further along the path.

    Eventually, all people, beings and things become our teachers, to the extent that we listen and reflect deeply upon them and the dhamma. Still, having a living teacher who is both sincere and learned, is an excellent resource which should not be wasted by those who are serious about their practice.

    take care & be well

    _/\_
    metta

    P.S.- Hi Elohim. Good to 'see' you (this is Allinone from E-Sangha).
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited March 2006
    Allinone/not1not2,

    Excellent post. It is good to see you here.

    :)

    Jason
  • edited March 2006
    YogaMama said:
    and what is the best way to find a good one? I feel a good Buddhist teacher would be so helpful, but I am not really sure how to locate one.

    Kim

    At some point it's vital. In fact better not to study Buddhism at all than to do so without a teacher when one is needed. That being said, we all start where we are, and for many that will mean solitary practice for a considerable time before we can work with a teacher.
  • edited March 2006
    A good guru can save one a great deal of wasted time & effort and provide much needed inspiration. So keep an eye out for one with qualities similar to these. Even if you do not pick a Mahayana guru, most of the items on this list will apply to any Buddhist teacher.

    In general a Mahayana Guru should have the following ten qualities:

    (1) discipline as a result of his mastery of the training in the higher discipline of moral self-control;

    (2) mental quiescence from his training in higher concentration;

    (3) pacification of all delusions and obstacles from his training in higher wisdom;

    (4) more knowledge than his disciple in the subject to be taught;

    (5) enthusiastic perseverance and joy in teaching;

    (6) a treasure of scriptural knowledge;

    (7) insight into and an understanding of Voidness;

    (8) skill in presenting the teachings;

    (9) great compassion; and

    (10) no reluctance to teach and work for his disciples regardless of their level of intelligence.
  • edited March 2006
    Hmmm...I am interested in discovering how things are...and don't equate that with the study of Buddhism. On that journey, I think that anyone we meet has the potential of encouraging that journey, and that there are different teachers at different points (kinda like 'to each according to his need').
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Somewhere in the UK, Central-Southern.... Moderator
    edited March 2006
    I would say, Harlan, that it depends on how structured you would like your journey to be... and I am with ZenMonk and Will on this one...and Not1not2's post hits the nail square on the head....
    Due to circumstances with regard to where I am currently living, I am completely unable to find a personal teacher with whom I can liaise, or from whom I can learn....
    I am specifically drawn to the Dzogchen lineage of Buddhism, and would hope to be able to further my studies one day... In fact, I know that there are aspects of this particular practise for which it is essential to have a Master...
    That is not to say that I am reluctant to learn from, or to accept that other schools and/or lineages have vital teachings which would be of incalculable benefit....
    But neither would I find it pleasant to be described as someone 'just dipping my toes in the water', or practisiing a namby-pamby, fluff-headed aimless kind of Buddhism....
    I, like many others, am attempting to practise as well as I can, and as seriously as I can...
    Will put up an excellent guideline as a checklist for evaluating a Teachers' worth, credentials or credibility....
    One caveat I would also add to that, is to avoid teachers who insist on telling you that their teachings are the only ones of worth or note, and that all else is falsehood.....
  • edited March 2006
    To the right student, the right teacher. And in the presence of the right teacher, no words are needed...as radiance is evident.

    "The thing is to see directly. If you see then you know. If you know, there is no need for belief. This is why the Dharma is a matter of, 'Come and see.' Not, 'Come and believe.' "

    ZenMonk_Genryu
  • edited March 2006
    zenmonk_genryu said:
    At some point it's vital. In fact better not to study Buddhism at all than to do so without a teacher when one is needed. That being said, we all start where we are, and for many that will mean solitary practice for a considerable time before we can work with a teacher.

    When I first read this reply I was a bit sad. Like Fede I am on my own without a teacher and unlike her do not see when I might be in the way of having one.

    Then I went away and sat on it for a while and a sharp kick up the backside ensued. Oi, birdbrain - you are a teacher of language. How well can a person learn a language without a teacher, going from books? Hmmm?

    Clarity! I have met people who have learned their language from books - they are incomprehensible ... their grasp of syntax and grammar are fantastic, their vocabulary stupendous, but their pronunciation is crap. To the point sometimes where although they know the language inside out, better than a native speaker, they cannot communicate except through the written word. They are reduced to writing notes to people standing two feet in front of them.

    So OK - I now SEE (yes, I came and saw ZMG) that a teacher will at some point be vital to correct my awful accent .... and I have no doubt that when that time comes, someone will pop out of the woodwork or I'll be sent on a journey to find one.

    Now where did I put that stick and sack ?........
  • edited March 2006
    Knitwitch said:

    So OK - I now SEE (yes, I came and saw ZMG) that a teacher will at some point be vital to correct my awful accent .... and I have no doubt that when that time comes, someone will pop out of the woodwork or I'll be sent on a journey to find one.

    Now where did I put that stick and sack ?........

    :rockon: One thing that struck me immediately about this post is the clear recognition that finding a teacher isn't a passive process, something that's not necessarily as obvious as perhaps it should be. All too often I come across people who's view is that, "when the student is ready, the teacher appears", literally means that they don't have to do anything but just sit passively waiting for some bearded, soft spoken guru to magically manifest in front of them. What is all too often missed is that finding a teacher may indeed involve 'going on a journey to find one', and perhaps even more importantly, being present enough when you are being shown something by what's in front of you, to actually sit up and pay a bit of attention.

    Mind you I've also had the experience that our ideas of who and what a teacher is can deny us the very thing we are most in need of, or that can most benefit us. As an example, I once had a quite lengthy correspondance with someone, when I was back in the UK, who wanted to learn Buddhist meditation. She was full of praise about what she'd read and asked if she could meet me, as she didn't live far away and "really, really need a living meditation teacher." Anyhow, against my gut instinct, and probably with not a little vanity at being flattered, I agreed and met this person at a bar in Streatham (the center of the known universe). She went on at considerable length about the amount of pain she was in from a particular condition that she lived with, how noble she was about it, and what exactly I could do to help her, as opposed to all the various therapies that she was interested in.

    After listening for a fair while, I eventually managed to get a word in and mentioned that there was a lot of good evidence for the long term benefit of meditation in chronic pain conditions and so forth, but that it shouldn't be considered a magic bullet and that the more expectations she had of it, the less likely she was to gain benefit. I stressed that the important thing was to try it and then see for herself, that I wasn't interested in 'selling the Dharma to her' or giving her answers, that she would have to find her own answers. She then went on at even greater length about her concern for 'purity' - how she would only eat vegan food, would go on fasts, would never touch anything impure such as alcohol - looking pointedly at my brandy and coke, and that any meditation teacher 'would of course have to match her high standards of purity'. At this point, I decided that Buddhist meditation wasn't a realistic option for this woman at that time, that what she was really looking for was an excuse to cling to her rigid opionions, to her condition and to her suffering, and to be the center of attention at all possible times. So, taking careful note of her views on purity, I proceeded to order several brandies, which I drank with much enthusiasm, in between chain smoking and singing along cheerfully to Motown from the jukebox (the main reason I'd chosen the place), suggesting cheerfully that she should try the burgers there.

    To cut a long story short, this young lady began to become more and more agitated. Finally I told her that we might benefit from mingling a bit and that there was a fellow sitting near the bar who we should spend some time with. At this point, the young lady declared that in reality I was a complete fake, and that I couldn't possibly teach her anything at all that she couldn't get from a book, firstly because I didn't have either a beard or proper robes (I kid you not), and secondly because I was more interested in talking to someone else than her. I didn't bother telling her that the fellow I wanted to talk with was severely depressed and, unlike her, would actually appreciate someone listening, nor that I didn't make it a habit to walk around South London in my robes (which in any case were black and white, not the 'proper' saffron she was thinking of), but simply ordered a gin and tonic and lit another cigarette, breaking out into a damn good (if I say so myself) rendition of 'These Arms of Mine', by Otis Redding.

    Needless to say, I never saw her again and am confident that she's still complaining loudly to anyone within earshot about her difficulties, and still searching for this nonexistent guru with the flowing beard and saffron robes, who will give her a regular gold star for the pleasure of being in her superior prescence and provide her with a mountain of answers - none of which will ever conflict with any of her dearly held opinions.

    Bottoms up! :grin:
  • edited March 2006
    Like all words and constructs...when understood through the mundane...even truisms are not true. On the other hand, we may be actively pursueing a goal (in this case, teacher), and even seeing ourselves approaching our goal...and all along it is an illusion...as a karmic current is actually putting us where we need to be. And on a subtle, and unraveling level, I am sure she was supposed to be there in all her wretchedness.


    ZG quote:

    "when the student is ready, the teacher appears", literally means that they don't have to do anything but just sit passively waiting for some bearded, soft spoken guru to magically manifest in front of them.
  • edited March 2006
    I remember hearing how a student once said to Maezumi Roshi that he was grateful for being given so much by him. Maezumi turned and walked out of the room. Too late the student realised that Zen teacher's give nothing at all, and that he'd inadvertently insulted Maezumi.
  • edited March 2006
    zenmonk_genryu said:
    I remember hearing how a student once said to Maezumi Roshi that he was grateful for being given so much by him. Maezumi turned and walked out of the room. Too late the student realised that Zen teacher's give nothing at all, and that he'd inadvertently insulted Maezumi.
    Isn't this a load of crap, ZM? (I'm not arguing with you here... I'm asking for enlightenment on the subject)

    Zen teachers give "nothing"? No direction? No teachings? No interpretation of the Dharma?

    Why even have a Zen master for a teacher then? If Zen teacher's give nothing then there is no purpose for them - nor is there a reason to call them a "master" or "teacher".

    I think that some stories about Zen Masters are like the egotistical Okinawan martial arts instructor that takes offense when no offense is meant. Like it's a hold over mentality from fuedal Japan or something...

    Teach me...

    -bf
  • edited March 2006
    zenmonk_genryu said:
    :rockon: One thing that struck me immediately about this post is the clear recognition that finding a teacher isn't a passive process, something that's not necessarily as obvious as perhaps it should be.

    ...snip...

    Bottoms up! :grin:
    Excellent story.

    -bf
  • edited March 2006
    Just helping him with a look more condusive to some of his wanna-be students...

    -bf
  • edited March 2006
    LMAO, oh that one's a keeper. :crazy: Thank you.
  • edited March 2006
    And no, it's not crap at all. A good teacher actually gives a student nothing at all. Initially they may think they're being given something, but eventually it dawns on them that there is nothing to give, nothing to receive.
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Somewhere in the UK, Central-Southern.... Moderator
    edited March 2006
    I think I get it.... all the master is doing is watering the seed.... the plant was there all along.... something like that....? :)
  • edited March 2006
    Or it is all nothing ....
  • edited March 2006
    In a way yes, or, as the anology that's often used in Zen training - like a chicken tapping on the outside of the egg, until the chick hatches. The chick's already there, Buddha Nature's already there so to speak, nothing is given because there is nothing to attain, nothing to possess or hang onto. If anything, a good teacher's role is to encourage a student by whatever appropriate means to let go of anything that they think they 'have', or that they think they depend on, to pull the rug out from underneath the student's feet until the student finally gets it that there is no security, nothing to depend on, that they alone are responsible for the whole deal - the whole universe.
  • edited March 2006
    Or it's all nothing and totally useless yes lol. Once Katagiri Roshi was invited to a conference, he decided to set as the title for his talk - "Zen is Useless". He was surprised when nobody showed up.
  • edited March 2006
    I get it - like the sculptor who said - it's easy, if you want a statue of an elephant, you take a large block of stone and chip away all the bits that don't look like an elephant?

    I teach, but I can't make people learn, they can only do that for themselves. I can only show them how to learn, after that it is up to them.
  • edited March 2006
    It's entirely up to them yes. Nobody can in truth give you anything when it comes to realising your true nature. The can point and prod and encourage (or discourage if that's needed) and advise you of potential pot holes, but they cannot give you something you already have.
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Somewhere in the UK, Central-Southern.... Moderator
    edited March 2006
    Well, I have decided that i'm going to say that I don't understand a word of all that... because, if I admit I do, and that I realise I have all I need already.... ZM might see his job as accomplished, and booger off again..... :downhand: :eekblue: :tongue2:

    So, I guess you'll just have to stick around a bit longer... :)
  • edited March 2006
    And I'm going to say .... I understand ZMG - give me a bit more nothing please.
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