Find all intellectual understanding dangerous and not conducive.

I feel the all intellectual understanding does not fall within the understanding of emptiness.

I feel the all intellectual understanding does not fall within the understanding of emptiness.

Its important to have a solid intellectual understanding.

Without it, it is almost impossible to have direct perception of emptiness.

But thats my personal opinion.

Even to have the intellectual understanding will lead to a happier life.

True knowledge of emptiness leads to freedom from views, thus paving the way for experiential realization.

experiential realization?

experiential realization is the intuitive seeing of reality as it is, which is ungraspable, unlocatable, lacking of any reference points.

emptiness is the lack of intrinsic reality.

the mind posits and grasps at entities. thus recognizing what the mind grasps at and seeking it out is the meditation on emptiness. when we find the lack of such entity or solid reality, that is what we call the direct perception of emptiness.

the intellectual understanding paves the way for the mind to be more lucid and open.

thus having a break through or direct seeing is possible. not something attained, but reality as it is, already is so.

emptiness of self is not emptiness of personality. Personality is easy to see as ever changing. recently I have read to look at our emotions of defensiveness and fear. In that place look for a self and see what you find.

See how this is a very direct experience?

maybe you were asserting that grasping onto ideas about emptiness is not conductive to ones life practice.

but then that would be the antithesis to the teachings of emptiness and really the incorrect understanding of emptiness as a whole.

well the buddha said everything is a raft. once you use it toss it.

taiyaki said:

experiential realization is the intuitive seeing of reality as it is, which is ungraspable, unlocatable, lacking of any reference points..................

thus having a break through or direct seeing is possible. not something attained, but reality as it is, already is so.

So, it's not transcendent, but immanent. Not special, but ordinary. Right in front of us, right now, even though we start by looking for something supernatural. So anyone can get it - if they have the right breakthrough?

Yup. Always obviously so.
The dharma is naked.
Just like the sun shines on both sinner and saint.

The mind makes both special and ordinary.

There is the experience. There is the realization.

Depends on how much the seeing penetrates. But even if you don't see, it already is so.

Can we hold onto anything? The mind that rests is always knowing this.

Denkatsu said:

I feel the all intellectual understanding does not fall within the understanding of emptiness.

Intellectual understanding is possible ... but limited.
Emotional understanding is possible ... but limited.

Conversationally, we might say that emptiness is unlimited. Or not ... your choice.

taiyaki said:

experiential realization is the intuitive seeing of reality as it is, which is ungraspable, unlocatable, lacking of any reference points.

emptiness is the lack of intrinsic reality.

the mind posits and grasps at entities. thus recognizing what the mind grasps at and seeking it out is the meditation on emptiness. when we find the lack of such entity or solid reality, that is what we call the direct perception of emptiness.

the intellectual understanding paves the way for the mind to be more lucid and open.

thus having a break through or direct seeing is possible. not something attained, but reality as it is, already is so.

Glad you could put it so simply.

:rolleyes:

It's like you are bummed out by the snow outside. And then you think how you wish it were to be. Then you work a hard day shoveling snow. Shovel the whole sidewalk and the driveway. When you get back you forget the way it should be and just look out the window with a groan feeling satisfied. The picture of summer is forgotten.. Impermanence.

taiyaki said:

Its important to have a solid intellectual understanding.
Without it, it is almost impossible to have direct perception of emptiness

Direct perception is not a function of the "solid intellectual understanding" of anything.
There are children who are labeled "mentally retarded" by this world who directly perceive the inherent emptiness of this world far beyond the vast majority of adults sitting contentedly on their "solid intellectual understanding."

Buddhism has been known to be called an 'intellectual' pill... given that your reality is built by your brain's function it wouldnt make sense to discount that as 'not conductive'... you are a human after all and in living each moment you will at some point have to live it as a human!

Buddhism is not for everyone.

If conditions are right one should practice. Whatever vehicle suites your conditioning.

But its important not to dismis something because it doesn't fit your conditioned pov.

Make sense?

Does a dog have Buddha nature or not?

@taiyaki - I'm all for open mind but if the initial statement were true for me then we wouldnt be typin... there is nothing dangerous in intellectual understanding... that said, I can only speak for myself but either way we have to get past that for comparison's sake...otherwise we'd just sit opposite eachother and from our caves shout 'you dont exist'!!! Battle of the forms...

DharmaField said:

Does a dog have Buddha nature or not?

Mu.

"Compassion facilitates the realization of emptiness. Although realizing emptiness is said by Buddhist Consequentialists to be the key to the end of suffering, it nevertheless occurs in context. It is not the first thing one learns. In many Buddhist contexts, there is a teaching emphasis on the importance of developing compassion before learning the emptiness teachings. Compassion in these contexts is explained as the spontaneous and sincere wish to help other beings alleviate suffering. Having this wish not only increases one's own joy, but also the depth of one's insight. Emphasizing compassion early on serves as a preventive measure against two ways to go wrong with the emptiness teachings.

Compassion moves the practitioner beyond a merely memorized or intellectual understanding of the emptiness teachings. Compassion helps one's realization become global and holistic.

Compassion is an antidote to learning the emptiness teachings for selfish, egocentric reasons. When one engages in a difficult dialectic like the emptiness teaching for selfish reasons, the result is counterproductive. Emptiness teachings are very subtle. The most common side-effect of misunderstanding emptiness is a crippling sense of nihilism. A nihilistic outlook makes joy, compassion and emptiness very difficult to realize. One doesn't experience an increase in joy and a decrease in suffering. Instead, one experiences a stiffening of the mind and a closure of the heart. But compassion opens the mind and heart. It allows one to "get out of the way." It makes the emptiness teachings easier to understand, easier to realize holistically, and easier to integrate into one's life. Compassion enables the realization of emptiness.
Realizing emptiness facilitates compassion. The effects run the other direction too. A greater understanding of emptiness enables greater compassion. The more strongly one realizes that one's self and other selves are empty of inherent existence, the less one experiences an essential distinction between one's self and another. It becomes harder to place one's own happiness above that of others. It becomes easier to act in such a way that others are benefitted, not just one's self.

Contextual clues. There is a clue to this traditional placement of emptiness later in the learning stream. In the various lists of Buddhist spiritual virtues called "perfections" or "paramitas" (Sanskrit), there are 6 or 10 items. The "perfection of wisdom" refers to the realization of emptiness or the lack of an essential self. But the perfection of wisdom is never the first item in these lists! It is usually number 4 or number 6. Depending on the list, the perfection of wisdom is preceded by the perfections of: generosity, virtue, renunciation, discipline, patience, tolerance, diligence, and one-pointed concentration.

For example, here is a Theravada list from the Pali Canon of Buddhist scriptures:

Dāna: generosity
Sīla: virtue, morality, proper conduct
Nekkhamma: renunciation
Paññā: wisdom, insight
Viriya: energy, diligence, vigor, effort
Khanti: patience, tolerance, forbearance, acceptance, endurance
Sacca: truthfulness, honesty
Adhiṭṭhāna: determination, resolution
Mettā: loving-kindness
Upekkhā: equanimity, serenity
Here is a Mahayana list:

Dāna: generosity
Śīla: virtue, morality, discipline, proper conduct
Kṣānti: patience, tolerance, forbearance, acceptance, endurance
Vīrya: energy, diligence, vigor, effort
Dhyāna: one-pointed concentration, contemplation
Prajñā: wisdom, insight
I find it interesting that the Mahayana tradition (Nagarjuna's tradition) places more emphasis on the importance of realizing emptiness, and also locates its paramita later in the list, with more perfections before it."

-

http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/02/nondual-emptiness-teachings.html#comp.e

I was wrong to say dangerous. I apologize. I believe emptiness is freedom its understanding its letting go. Thats all i rly know.

dog comments are a bit over the top imo. But be free to express yourself.

Freedom is knowing emptiness and fullness as both sides of the same coin - in this way, each moment is potential.

Potential is expressed through living and understanding both emotionally and intellectually - expressing potential is inclusive rather than exclusive - when you find yourself reaching deadend ultimatums, look for the alternative and then take a step back.

I feel in a way its learning to be okay with who you are.
Everything is workable as Mr. Trungpa would say.

I keep reaching this thought. that says i can change and become the man i wanna be. I don'nt have to give head to this life at all. I can be free if its what i want.

does this make any sense?

Yes!

Nothing external needs to change.
Just our perception and when we change our perception the external changes.

This voice has been talking to me for along time I keep ignoring it.

since i was child. it was always. given me a choice or a relization i don'nt have to be this way. you have a choice.

It may sound odd but as a child I had this thought. My mother wanted me to quite down be good. A thought came over in my head said you don't have to continue this way. You have a choice.

very profound for me in any case.

ill never forget it.

Ah, the voice of being.

I heard her at 17. . .most wise.

Denkatsu said:

dog comments are a bit over the top imo. But be free to express yourself.

Sorry to be a bit cryptic, but the point in this context, is the dilemma you face. If a dog has Buddha nature then so does everything, but how can such a lowly being have it? The Zen practice of Mu cuts through the possiblity of endless debate and all the intellectual stuff. Do we need it? Well, of course right understanding is part of the 8 fold path, but right understanding can be direct - ie just this very moment is it!

Even if you are just an ordinary person - you can be awakened in this lifetime.

I always suggest to young women who are interested in their spirituality to start with a foundation of knowledge of all religion.

Intellectual arguments, apologetics, agnosticism all very good.

But there comes a point where you need to listen to your heart.

Sorry, most of my spiritual group are women, not men. No offense.

Typo Gnosticism

Historically, wars begins from intellectual. Never would there be war ever witnessed to be started from housewives. Intellectuals develop law, policy and staunchly engaging them that generated atmosphere of distaste which causes protests and riots to spark off. When massive riots begins to take place, they called it anarchy in the name of law. Upon law enforcer crashed with their fellow people, both suffered heavy injury and death involuntarily in the name of law. An adage simply put it: pen is mightier than sword as pen can mustered the lot to murder one another :D Intellectual having 70 percents of loving tolerance and generous personalities will make a lot more sense for world peace. as the saying goes, dun do unto others if you did not want other to do upon you, simply because you cant expect all community to be sagely but you surely can be sagely to your community through loving kindness and tolerance. if you are not along the path of exploring wisdom love, be tolerance and be generously loving. Because a lovely world begins from you :D be safe be love be bless ;)

Denkatsu said:

I feel the all intellectual understanding does not fall within the understanding of emptiness.

We're all different. What do you find helpful?

Spiny

@spaceless...housewife would show up to fight but be home by 5 for dinner.

Yes you all are very helpfull! Thank you! =D

Denkatsu said:

I feel the all intellectual understanding does not fall within the understanding of emptiness.

To quote a wise man who once said, "the intellect is a good servant but a poor pastor." Waite, that didn't come out right.

The dog comments are relevant because the question is about the usefulness of intellectual understanding in relation to realizing Buddha-nature. Dogs surely have Buddha-nature. It would be very difficult for one to become enlightened -- no language, presumably none of the conceptual stuff that goes along with it.

If you imagine a robot that's trying to reprogram itself. Kind of a gruesome image, but maybe useful. Does the robot need to be a good programmer? -- Well, yes and no. It needs some kind of interface with itself that it has developed some facility with. But it does not need necessarily to know how to program itself in the way its "builder" did.

Concepts are useful, except when they're not.