Protesters Shot in Tibet

http://www.shambhalasun.com/news/?p=28535

The counties of Draggo and Serta in Tibet are on lockdown now — no telephone, internet, or visitors to the area since Chinese forces opened fire on protesters there on January 24 and 25.

http://www.shambhalasun.com/news/?p=28535

The counties of Draggo and Serta in Tibet are on lockdown now — no telephone, internet, or visitors to the area since Chinese forces opened fire on protesters there on January 24 and 25.

I look forward to the day when this can be counted as 'ancient history' instead of 'current Events'.....

*sigh*.....

Jeffrey said:

The counties of Draggo and Serta in Tibet are on lockdown now — no telephone, internet, or visitors to the area since Chinese forces opened fire on protesters there on January 24 and 25.

I'm surprised rural China has telephones and internet. Either China's been doing a lot of infrastructure investment, or some reporter's been making wild assumptions.

From today, this is an interesting read:

31 January, 2012
International Campaign for Tibet
U.S. Senate resolution urges China reverse Tibet policies in wake of self-immolations and shooting of Tibetans

Full story: http://www.savetibet.org/media-center/ict-press-releases/us-senate-resolution-urges-china-reverse-tibet-policies-wake-self-immolations-and-shooti

what the tibetan monastics ought to do is a continuing retreat of meditation on Om Mani Padme Hum :D

Spaceless said:

what the tibetan monastics ought to do is a continuing retreat of meditation on Om Mani Padme Hum :D

Maybe *you* should do it on their behalf.

The fact is the violence there is escalating. They are blocking roads and halting visitors to the area. I get the feeling something big is about to go down there, the Chinese push to completely obliterate the Tibetan culture and resistance to Beijing's oppression. And you, @Spaceless have jokes. Really?

Mediation is just NOT the answer to every singe problem mankind faces. Nor is self-immolation, however for those people that is what it has come to. They are suffering so much that burning themselves alive is one of the ways they deal with it.

How much pain does one need to be in to do that? I don't know, but as someone who used to self-harm from being in pain I get where they are coming from.

A flippant response to some serious suffering was not warranted here.

Brave to burn themselves and not brave to sacrifice peacefully in meditation? Goddess of mercy has a vow that those who wish encounter danger ought to meditate on his name or om mani padme hum. Who was not in tolerance learning especially learning buddhism. there may be incitation since the beginning before it was escalated to this degree. hatred begets hatred and does not solve problem. ;D

Set up medical and vegetarian foods in the monastery for needies. UN should deal it, as it has totally against human rights, is scholars and scholars business. ;)

I hope all goes well. Wish I could help in some way.

Based on the thread, is political and domestic issues similar to buddha period where shakya tribe being attacked and killed. I read with deep feel and hope it goes well as any such tension will cause climate warming as well. ;)

nothing new to be honest

Spaceless said:

Brave to burn themselves and not brave to sacrifice peacefully in meditation? Goddess of mercy has a vow that those who wish encounter danger ought to meditate on his name or om mani padme hum. Who was not in tolerance learning especially learning buddhism. there may be incitation since the beginning before it was escalated to this degree. hatred begets hatred and does not solve problem. ;D

I am sure they meditated, endlessly. It's kind of like how some people pray to their god, and their prayers go unanswered, so they have nowhere to put the pain of disappointment, so they lose faith.

It is obvious that Beijing perceives these peaceful people as a threat, to what is beyond me, maybe Beijing feels as if they will create an uprising against the regime, which is ridiculous. Mostly they just want it their way, or no way. So the people have the choice of conform,leave, or die. Not much choice now is there?

The hatred was started by the Chinese, and the Tibetans have seemingly fought back in self defense when it became clear that they had no other choice, as the Chinese are relentless.

Could it be perceived as weakness? Perhaps, however pain is maddening, whether it be mental or physical, and under such duress people will do things irrationally that they would not normally do.

The whole situation is sickening, and is becoming genocide on a greater level. If the US was not in such debt to China I am pretty sure we would be all over this, however money talks, so our hands are tied. Priorities. :zombie:

Dakini said:

Jeffrey said:

The counties of Draggo and Serta in Tibet are on lockdown now — no telephone, internet, or visitors to the area since Chinese forces opened fire on protesters there on January 24 and 25.

I'm surprised rural China has telephones and internet. Either China's been doing a lot of infrastructure investment, or some reporter's been making wild assumptions.

Rural China or rural Tibet?

"Rural" is sometimes in the eye of the beholder, but in general internet in Tibet, is available mostly at internet cafes or offices of Chinese businesses.

Truly rural Tibet (i.e. nomad areas, etc.) don't generally have internet, though cellphone service is available in some areas (now cut off, however).

Cutting off people's phones as often as the Chinese government does is very dangerous and in my opinion should be a crime. If people need emergency medical services, they are out of luck. This is not done often in China at all, but in Tibet and Uyghuristan it's common practice.

Rural China has had telephone service for ages; rural Tibet, not so much.

And if the US did come into play, how many inocent lives would be taken, how many innocent lives destroyed because of power? It is impossible to speak for a troop or even a private, but the UN is surely a better option

I meant to say "internet in Tibet, when available, is generally accessed at internet cafes."

Really miss the 'edit' button ;)

Incidentally, to use internet at a cafe if you are Tibetan, you have to show a special "internet browsing card"; a record is kept of every site you visit.

Chinese media outlet Boxun has just posted an update on the situation in Tibet along with very graphic photos of some victims who have been shot.

http://boxun.com/news/gb/china/2012/02/201202010945.shtml

A few wumao (paid internet commentators) come on, one suggesting they were only rubber bullets, to which a netizen responds, "Sorry, we don't have exotic rubber bullets in China. In China, "non-lethal" refers to batons."

This is a tragic situation, but I am heartened to see a real outpouring of sympathy and protest from Chinese citizens for what's happening in Tibet.

My concern is if the chinese are committing genocide. In that case I think the UN should step in.

The UN cannot step in.
the offer to join the UN was made in the aftermath of the second world war, to both China and Tibet.
China declined the offer many believe because of its apalling record on human rights.
Tibet declined because they did not believe such a move was either necessary or relevant.
That is a decision HH the DL wishes had not been taken so lightly.

Chinese is a little business minded lot and may conducted unwisely when there is power and fame under they control. Buddhist monks should know from the tesching that body and land are same issues, impermanent. as the chinese saying goes like this 留得清山在,那怕没材烧 means tibetan monastic should if need be, learn the buddha way of “begging“. in whichever, the chinese authority wants control, and the monastic wants a place for long benefit of all. According to earthstore sutra, when a person is near dying time, alot of karmic debtors will be present beyond naked eyes, those are far more terrible than this tibetan situation.

It is not in the longterm interest of the people of China to use force. That establishes the use of force in the whole culture.

Great map, Sile. We can see where Tibet is, and where Mongolia is, cool.

I said, and meant, rural China, because the places where the immolations have been taking place are outside the TAR. I guess it depends on how we define "Tibet". If you could come up with a map showing the boundaries of Old Tibet, and locating the sites of the immolations in relation to the 1950's borders of Tibet, that would be really helpful. But I doubt that phones and internet are common in nomad areas, whether they're on the TIbetan side, or on the Chinese side.

“I am giving away my body as an offering of light to chase away the darkness, to free all beings from suffering”
- Lama Sobha, recorded testimony prior to his self-immolation on January 8

If inappropriate... Mods please delete the following link.

WARNING:
VERY graphic photos of Lama Sobha can be seen here: http://www.savetibet.org/media-center/ict-news-reports/photos-lama-sobha

Fab, Sile, you're a peach. So it's pretty much as I thought; the incidents (except for one) took place in turf now part of China. What do you want to bet those areas have been neglected in terms of development and services we consider basic (telephones, internet)?

Beautiful map. :) What's the date of these boundaries? I notice HHDL's home village is shown as inside Tibet, even though his brother said they lived on the Chinese side of the border.

According to China, all of Tibet is China, and has been for 700-1000 years. The TAR isn't any special conquered nation; just administered as an autonomous region (well, supposed to be, but not in practice).

Shortly after Mao took Lanzhou and announced the foundation of the People's Republic of China, and congratulated the officials in attendance who "represented every region of China," he announced that the next tasks were to "liberate Tibet and Taiwan." So as far as Mao was concerned, Tibet began west of Lanzhou.

In my grandparents' time, once you left Lanzhou headed west, there were little groups of Tibetan houses, little groups of Chinese houses, and some little groups had both, much as any frontier area. Not too far beyond that, the Chinese houses disappeared altogether. It was a sparsely populated region anyway, so percentages are not particularly informative. I remember hearing some say that "Siling was the last outpost," meaning there were a few Chinese families in Siling, and the missionaries, who knew only Chinese at that point, could have a few people they could communicate with to get lodging and dinner upon starting their "work in Tibet."

Takster, southwest of Siling, was not even a town so much as a village. When the Dalai Lama was a child some say there were only about 8 or so families in the village, and all were Tibetan. (Thomas Laird reported 17 houses, 15 of which were Tibetan).

Just south of Lanzhou is more of Tibet, so it's not a straight north-south deal; part of Kham extends further east than Lanzhou.

Like any land mass before militarized nations get hold of it, the "border" between Tibet and China was really a checkerboarded frontier area.

One interesting point is that the Chinese government accuses "the yellow hat sect operating out of Lhasa" of having ruled Tibet until 1951 with a nationwide system of "cruel serfdom," controlling Tibet's "entire oppressed population" which consisted of "95% serfs and 5% serflords." All existing Tibetans through 1951 fell into this demographic split; meaning, China itself considered Tibet a nation, which included Amdo, Kham and Utsang, controlled under a central "theocratic government."

And even though China now tries to claim that substantial numbers of Chinese "always lived in Tibet," somehow there were zero Chinese serfs living within this 95%/5% serfdom system.

As so often happens, propaganda contradicts itself into many knots.

Sorry for rambling on...I find border issues fascinating.

You can't see them from space....

Another view free of man-made borders:

Jeffrey said:

My concern is if the chinese are committing genocide. In that case I think the UN should step in.

Interesting update in that respect - the UN has just asked China to suspend its forced resettlement of nomads. Forced resettlement is often pointed to as one of the sources of mounting despair and tension in Tibet:

The resettlement policy conducted in the Tibet Autonomous Region has expanded to non-herders, and is also aimed at relocating a majority of the Tibetan rural population into newly-built concentrated settlements under the "Comfortable Housing" policy.

The nomads and herders have to give up herding and farming revenues, and consequently lose economic independence. This results in loss of land, limited ability to keep livestock, relocation in areas unsuitable to agriculture, and generally a disruption of traditional patterns of livelihood, said the report.

China is a signatory of the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights and is hence prohibited from depriving any individual from his/her means of subsistence.

http://www.zimbio.com/Tibet/articles/vAGjjJNedUU/UN+asks+China+suspend+resettlement+Tibetan

I imagine that China will summarily ignore that. Who's gonna make them?

Yes... trade embargoes won't work... Everything I pick up to look at - from Christmas decorations to stylish designer bowls in a local highbrow department store - is made in China.
Take away everything we have, that is made there - and you'd have a really stark version of 'minimalism'....

Not to mention @Federica that we are in a bargeload of debt to them too. Hope we all like rice, and can learn to speak Chinese so we can assimilate once they annex us as well.

I see it first as an issue of glut: of the things that are made in China (or anywhere else for that matter), which ones do we really need? I think we need to sort out glut, redundancy and waste, before (or along with) getting down to choosing where to buy the goods we really do need. It could very well be that without wasting money on superfluous products and services, we can far better afford to buy local.

The US won't dare to lay a finger on China, debt or no debt.

I try to avoid anything made in China. My own people need jobs, and I worry about product safety. (Just as an aside)

Anybody have the number for the Mongolians?

My feeling is that the solution to the problem could be very beneficial for all parties--consumers demand fewer, higher-quality (in every sense--ethics, safety, materials, workmanship) goods.

However, what I'd really like to see is each country making fewer, higher-quality goods and providing these goods to their own communities, rendering transport costs (and carbon consumption) lower.

As far as current "Chinese" quality issues, it is largely American companies who are contracting for, accepting, and selling these products--they're the ones giving the products the final thumbs-up before they hit Walmart, Shopko, etc. So I personally find it very hard, if not impossible, to lay so much blame on the Chinese.

Ultimately the blame lies on the consumer; without a consumer, there is no product, bad or good. But as a consumer, I do understand the disconnect between "doing something" and feeling like "it's making a difference."

Overall, "Boycott China" is a crude but effective way of approaching the issue; but it might be fairer to say, "Boycott Contracted-In-China."

Lest we think boycotts don't matter, many historians and analysts have pointed to western boycotts as key in destroying Apartheid in South Africa. They weren't the sole factor by any means--but they were important.

See: http://speedysnail.com/textuary/apartheid.html

"The international anti-apartheid movement, then, in which ‘churches, civil rights organizations, trade unions, and student and professional organizations [were] ... in the vanguard, pressing governments, businesses, and other NGOs to sever their ties with South Africa’ (Grundy 1991: 85-86), played an integral role in determining the pace of change within South Africa. Without strong international pressure, the South African government was able to ride out the local repercussions of Sharpeville and its other repressive acts from the 1950s to the 1970s, but when international support collapsed in the 1980s the combination of internal and external pressures became more than it could acceptably bear."

@Sile, China is vast, not sure it would help, but maybe. Boycott "Contracted In China" might make the outsources stand up and take notice.

Look how long Cuba has held out - though they have been somewhat helped/morally supported by the other communist countries. I would imagine China is one of them.

China is exponentially more wealthy in comparison to Cuba, yet Cuba is still hanging on despite the poverty there. So, that could be a standoff of epic proportions.

I wholeheartedly agree that if we consumed less - especially plastic and/or"throw away" items we get from the dollar stores we could cut way down on imports.

However the US is such that they value these trading relationships, so if it was not cheap disposable goods it would be something else. Because the cost of labor is still much cheaper there, Westerners will not work for what the Asians do, thus driving up the cost of goods, no matter the quality.

Made in America is too dang expensive, and we only have ourselves and our bougie "I want to be paid like a CEO" work ethic to blame. Not sure when it started, I am thinking around the time slavery came. We became too good to do certain jobs, which without them society would collapse.

The Great Depression was an equalizer of sorts, and it seems our latest lesson in humility is going unheard. We all have a niche and should embrace it, get over the idea that everyone should be a CEO or feel less than. The greatest disservice we can do ourselves is to compare ourselves that way.

It's not a matter of having what you want, it's wanting what you've got.