What makes the four noble truths noble?

My understanding is that the cause of the suffering in the 4NT is ignorance.

So if I wanted to purchase a cleaning product and I was ignorant of what the best value was would researching the consumer reports be an application of the eightfold path? Ending ignorance of the consumer reports information for what is the best dish detergent?

Or do the noble truths refer to a limited type of ignorance?

It seems to me that having all the best cleaning products leads to savings in money and effective cleanliness. But is this advancing the direction to enlightenment? So is it possible for a matter of ignorance to be irrelevant to the four noble truths and the eightfold path. Another example is the composition of planets in our solar system. Am I following the eightfold path by learning the composition up the atmosphere and soil of planets? Or is this mundane? If the four noble truths encompass everything what prevents me from spending all my time studying the planets and none studying the dharma?

Respectully yours in the dharma.

My understanding is that the cause of the suffering in the 4NT is ignorance.

So if I wanted to purchase a cleaning product and I was ignorant of what the best value was would researching the consumer reports be an application of the eightfold path? Ending ignorance of the consumer reports information for what is the best dish detergent?

Or do the noble truths refer to a limited type of ignorance?

It seems to me that having all the best cleaning products leads to savings in money and effective cleanliness. But is this advancing the direction to enlightenment? So is it possible for a matter of ignorance to be irrelevant to the four noble truths and the eightfold path. Another example is the composition of planets in our solar system. Am I following the eightfold path by learning the composition up the atmosphere and soil of planets? Or is this mundane? If the four noble truths encompass everything what prevents me from spending all my time studying the planets and none studying the dharma?

Respectully yours in the dharma.

The 4 Noble Truths encompass everything? Who said they encompass everything? They just encompass the basic principles involved in the cessation of suffering, the 1st step on the path.

Jeffrey, your mind is going a little overboard. You're so well-grounded in the teachings, this topic doesn't seem like you.

Dakini said:

Jeffrey, your mind is going a little overboard. You're so well-grounded in the teachings, this topic doesn't seem like you.

Dakini, i thought people might have some interesting thoughts. But then maybe nobody has some thoughts.

I think what I think (<--funny expression) is that there are teachings that are liberating in the long run. But in the short run some of the ways to make ourselves comfortable are not the topic of the four noble truths.<br />
So it's like I asked my dad if he disliked all christians. He said that some christians really used their religion to do work and they benefited. And some christians stayed even more stuck in some way using the religion to further miss the point.

So my thesis is that the noble truths deepen our appreciation of the whole dharma and they cut to the heart of our wish to be happy.

its about suffering and how suffering has a cause. that alone is a brilliant statement.

anyone who is honest and willing will see that the four noble truths contain the whole path, ground, and goal.

i like that it is the first teaching coming from the enlightened buddha.

oh my you are all suffering from my point of view.

and i agree with you that it is ignorance of what suffering is and its causes, which is basically samsara.

Jeffrey said:

My understanding is that the cause of the suffering in the 4NT is ignorance.

So if I wanted to purchase a cleaning product and I was ignorant of what the best value was would researching the consumer reports be an application of the eightfold path? Ending ignorance of the consumer reports information for what is the best dish detergent?

Or do the noble truths refer to a limited type of ignorance?

It seems to me that having all the best cleaning products leads to savings in money and effective cleanliness. But is this advancing the direction to enlightenment? So is it possible for a matter of ignorance to be irrelevant to the four noble truths and the eightfold path. Another example is the composition of planets in our solar system. Am I following the eightfold path by learning the composition up the atmosphere and soil of planets? Or is this mundane? If the four noble truths encompass everything what prevents me from spending all my time studying the planets and none studying the dharma?

Respectully yours in the dharma.

I don't agree Jeffrey, because you would just be comparing cleaning products that are listed in the consumer reports. What of all the cleaning products that are much better and cheaper to make, but have not yet been invented because we don't understand them yet?

And you know the planets... by the time the light reaches us, the planet may no longer exist. So why study them?

Oh, thanks, Jeffrey. I guess I misunderstood the entire OP, the mindset, or something. :-/

Ginab, I agree with you. I was enquiring whether all instances of knowledge relate to the eightfold path/4NT. Cleaning was an example. And planets trivia was an example.

@Dakini, yeah I have trouble with expressing clearly sometimes. I just thought the forum needed something mentioning the four noble truths or something like that so I tried to think of a question.

Why would they relate to the 4NT? Still not getting it :-/

@Dakini, I agree with you. Maybe nobody thinks those straw men relate to the 4NT, but maybe there are some non-strawmen that people overlook.

Milarepa was practicing in a cave and their were these stinging nettles that stung him whenever he went out to forge or such. He never removed the nettles because the time spent on that project would take away from his practice which I assume was meditating on the teachings he had received. That's the story anyway.

Another story is of a man who was considering becoming a monk so he tried out whether he could beg. Someone gave him a handful of grain and the thought occured to him to plant the grain and become rich.

What makes the four noble truths noble? They were made by a prince.

I don't take much stock in the word "noble", unless you want to use the definition of "noble" as "possessing, characterized by, or arising from superiority of mind or character or of ideals or morals".

I just really look at the 4NT as one of the Pillars of Buddhism.

'Noble' in this instance means 'rock-steady'....
What makes them Noble?
Indisputability.

Jeffrey, I feel as though the point you are trying to make in OP is not being understood. Unfortunately, I don't have the energy to go into anything right now, but I will say that I think I understand what you are trying to say, and I don't think the other posters are understanding.

ignorance is a specific type of ignorance that encompasses everything.

i recall hearing a lecture from a monk saying that omniscience is not knowing everything but knowing what makes happiness and what makes suffering.

Jeffrey said:

My understanding is that the cause of the suffering in the 4NT is ignorance.

In the 4NT the cause of suffering is craving ( tanha ), or attachment to desire. The teaching on dependent origination adds some detail and tells us that the root condition for suffering is ignorance. "Ignorance" here is quite specific, eg not seeing the 3 characteristics of existence.

Spiny

They are called the Noble Truths because that's what the Buddha called them in his famous, original sermon. The teachings later expound on how the cause of Dukkha is craving conditioned by ignorance and desire rooted in ignorance, so ignorance is a big part of the cause.

So is education the answer? No, because simply informing yourself of the cause does nothing to stop the craving. Every junkie on earth knows they are hooked on drugs, knows they are slowly killing themselves, and knows they have messed up their lives because of it. Yet they continue to search for the next high, driven by their cravings. Even Buddhist Masters who know the Dharma to their bones have not lived up to the teachings as cravings caused them to act in ways they knew were wrong.

But knowing is a necessary ingredient. The first of the 8 paths is Right Knowledge, followed by Right Intention and so on.

From my POV the 4NT are about acknowledgement, and to acknowledge one must notice and therefore understand.

"Noble" gets your attention and mine since we are all aware of what's less-than-noble in our own lives. Since spiritual persuasions are largely composed of advertising, "noble" is a bit of advertising.

The question that then arises -- or anyway I imagine it does -- is "advertising for what?" And at that point, those persuaded by spiritual life may consent to get to work... and I don't mean just creating more advertising.

I think the Four Noble Truths are called that because, in the end, they just amount to common sense. Plain old common sense. Nothing sexy. Nothing really "noble." If they were "noble," the nobility would be lost.

But that's just my take.

This is a very good discussion...a very helpful discussion (particularly as the discussion has matured).

But I begin to also see an attachment that is common to virtually all religions. That Buddhist views are indisputable. That Buddhist views are "common sense". That Buddhists are the only ones who can see the ultimate truth.

May all beings have happiness and the causes of happiness
May all beings be free from suffering and the causes of suffering

I think the noble or aryan truths involvs seeing deeply into the causes of happiness and the causes of suffering. Of course the answer is that tanha/thirst causes suffering but unfortunately it may be that simple but it is apparently difficult to sort that problem out. Perhaps seeing deeply can be of benefit. It makes me think of Thich Nhat Hanh saying "if you look deeply into the nature of the present you see the past and the future". For me a good time to look for thirst is in the present moment of awareness.

coming to see what is the impersonal and where the mind grasps and makes the personal.

the mind asserts from habit that there is an abiding entity that is the "er" of suffer while suffering.

in actuality suffering is happening to no thing. suffering is the full expression of all of the causes and conditions coming together in that single instant.

when we examine there is no sufferer and even suffering itself is broken down. suffering is seen as suffering because of a certain karma. because we objectify a self and assume that every phenomena is objectively in existence we suffer.

it is merely a belief and misperception of suffering, which brings about suffering.

so suffering is no suffering. samsara is nirvana. one positing a reference point and the other understanding that reference points are merely a play of conditions and causality thus like a dream.

what do you think Jeffrey?

Where is a view located? A view I am caught up in? Is it in my arms? My head? My navel? Is it a knot? Is it a halo? Is it in the room? Is it nowhere? Is it in the whole universe?

Where is my craving for coffee? Is it in the coffee? Is it in the enjoyment of coffee? Is it in the past?

Where is it? Is it like a perfume with little particles reaching me and sensing?

What happens when the craving is let go of? Does a little diamond of peace form? Where is the peace? Is it in my eyes? Is it in heaven? Is it a place?

@taiyaki I am looking for 'it'.... Where is it? How to describe it? Looking out my window. Joy at seeing little dog? Then hard heart looking. Where is the heart? Is it in my chest? Driven I I let off a big weight thinking of another coffee steam comes out of me like a chimney, like a sigh

Where is the cause of this restlessness and what triggered the sigh? The taoists were so wise but what elixers did they find in the quest for eternal life? Like Thomas Edison testing 10000 materials and discovering 99999 that do not constitute a lightbulb.

The motor runs 'that one is good' 'I want more like that' 'no no' 'yes yeah yeah'

In the context that the Buddha uses it, ariya — which original referred to someone born into the higher classes of Brahmanical society — means 'spiritually ennobled,' someone who has direct insight into the four noble truths. The four noble truths, then, are thus called 'noble' because they are truths that help lead one to becoming a spiritually ennobled person. (For reference, see Peter Harvey's notes to his translation of SN 56.11.)

Thirst for ideas
Thirst for the senses
Thirst for being

SpinyNorman said:

Jeffrey said:

My understanding is that the cause of the suffering in the 4NT is ignorance.

In the 4NT the cause of suffering is craving ( tanha ), or attachment to desire. The teaching on dependent origination adds some detail and tells us that the root condition for suffering is ignorance. "Ignorance" here is quite specific, eg not seeing the 3 characteristics of existence.

Spiny

Yes, ignorance (avijja) in Buddhism generally has a specific meaning. In MN 9, for example, ignorance is defined as ignorance of the four noble truths:

And what is ignorance, what is the origin of ignorance, what is the cessation of ignorance, what is the way leading to the cessation of ignorance? Not knowing about suffering, not knowing about the origin of suffering, not knowing about the cessation of suffering, not knowing about the way leading to the cessation of suffering — this is called ignorance. With the arising of the taints there is the arising of ignorance. With the cessation of the taints there is the cessation of ignorance. The way leading to the cessation of ignorance is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view... right concentration.

I agree with federica that the meaning of the word "noble" in the Four "Noble" truths means something that stands and cannot be divided. An example is "Noble numbers" in math terminology, and also "Noble gases" are gases that do not react to anything.

Bothi said:

A kidney pain clearly is suffering. What is the cause of this? Ignorance! ohh no,no, you never know your kidney structure so that why kidney stone in a special type occurs there... So you do not have any attachment and you do not know why calcium oxalate stones or calcium phosphate kidney stones giving you this pain...

So where the 4NT enlightened your ignorance here?

With a great mindfulness,

Ah, a good reminder!

Bothi said:

A kidney pain clearly is suffering. What is the cause of this? Ignorance! ohh no,no, you never know your kidney structure so that why kidney stone in a special type occurs there... So you do not have any attachment and you do not know why calcium oxalate stones or calcium phosphate kidney stones giving you this pain...

So where the 4NT enlightened your ignorance here?

With a great mindfulness,

I think this is a misunderstanding of the role ignorance of the four noble truths plays in regard to the experience of dukkha. While the Buddha did include both mental and physical pain in his description of dukkha, sickness and physical pain aren't necessarily experienced as dukkha by noble ones, especially arahants, i.e., people whose minds are completely free of defilements.

According to the Buddha, with the presence of clinging (upadana) in regard to the five aggregates, which arise due to the presence of craving (tahna), bodily phenomena such as sickness and physical pain are experienced as suffering; however, without the presence of clinging, the experience of bodily phenomena such as sickness and physical pain are not experienced as suffering.

In other words, although nibbana — the summum bonum of Buddhism — is said to be the cessation of suffering, that doesn't mean that a person won't feel physical pain or discomfort (barring something like serious nerve damage, of course), only that such feelings will no longer cause mental suffering, emotional distress, etc. I think this is made clear in the simile of the dart found in SN 36.6:

"An untaught worldling, O monks, experiences pleasant feelings, he experiences painful feelings and he experiences neutral feelings. A well-taught noble disciple likewise experiences pleasant, painful and neutral feelings. Now what is the distinction, the diversity, the difference that exists herein between a well-taught noble disciple and an untaught worldling?

"When an untaught worldling is touched by a painful (bodily) feeling, he worries and grieves, he laments, beats his breast, weeps and is distraught. He thus experiences two kinds of feelings, a bodily and a mental feeling. It is as if a man were pierced by a dart and, following the first piercing, he is hit by a second dart. So that person will experience feelings caused by two darts. It is similar with an untaught worldling: when touched by a painful (bodily) feeling, he worries and grieves, he laments, beats his breast, weeps and is distraught. So he experiences two kinds of feeling: a bodily and a mental feeling.

"Having been touched by that painful feeling, he resists (and resents) it. Then in him who so resists (and resents) that painful feeling, an underlying tendency of resistance against that painful feeling comes to underlie (his mind). Under the impact of that painful feeling he then proceeds to enjoy sensual happiness. And why does he do so? An untaught worldling, O monks, does not know of any other escape from painful feelings except the enjoyment of sensual happiness. Then in him who enjoys sensual happiness, an underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feelings comes to underlie (his mind). He does not know, according to facts, the arising and ending of these feelings, nor the gratification, the danger and the escape, connected with these feelings. In him who lacks that knowledge, an underlying tendency to ignorance as to neutral feelings comes to underlie (his mind). When he experiences a pleasant feeling, a painful feeling or a neutral feeling, he feels it as one fettered by it. Such a one, O monks, is called an untaught worldling who is fettered by birth, by old age, by death, by sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair. He is fettered by suffering, this I declare.

"But in the case of a well-taught noble disciple, O monks, when he is touched by a painful feeling, he will not worry nor grieve and lament, he will not beat his breast and weep, nor will he be distraught. It is one kind of feeling he experiences, a bodily one, but not a mental feeling. It is as if a man were pierced by a dart, but was not hit by a second dart following the first one. So this person experiences feelings caused by a single dart only. It is similar with a well-taught noble disciple: when touched by a painful feeling, he will no worry nor grieve and lament, he will not beat his breast and weep, nor will he be distraught. He experiences one single feeling, a bodily one.

"Having been touched by that painful feeling, he does not resist (and resent) it. Hence, in him no underlying tendency of resistance against that painful feeling comes to underlie (his mind). Under the impact of that painful feeling he does not proceed to enjoy sensual happiness. And why not? As a well-taught noble disciple he knows of an escape from painful feelings other than by enjoying sensual happiness. Then in him who does not proceed to enjoy sensual happiness, no underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feelings comes to underlie (his mind). He knows, according to facts, the arising and ending of those feelings, and the gratification, the danger and the escape connected with these feelings. In him who knows thus, no underlying tendency to ignorance as to neutral feelings comes to underlie (his mind). When he experiences a pleasant feeling, a painful feeling or a neutral feeling, he feels it as one who is not fettered by it. Such a one, O monks, is called a well-taught noble disciple who is not fettered by birth, by old age, by death, by sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair. He is not fettered to suffering, this I declare.

"This, O monks, is the distinction, the diversity, the difference that exists between a well-taught noble disciple and an untaught worldling."

By deeply penetrating into the four noble truths and accomplishing the duties each entails (i.e., comprehend suffering, abandon its cause, realize its cessation, and develop the path to that cessation), the relation of the mind to things like physical pain are altered in such a way "when touched by a painful feeling, he will no worry nor grieve and lament, he will not beat his breast and weep, nor will he be distraught."

@Bodhi, you exactly make my point. Knowledge of the kidney does not relieve pain of the kidney.

Rationalization of situations via scripture does not substitute for direct insight (prajna) as a yogic experience. Through scripture we learn where to look. Through contemplation we see. And through meditation we know.

Jason said:

...sickness and physical pain aren't necessarily experienced as dukkha by noble ones, especially arahants, i.e., people whose minds are completely free of defilements.

According to the Buddha, with the presence of clinging (upadana) in regard to the five aggregates, which arise due to the presence of craving (tahna), bodily phenomena such as sickness and physical pain are experienced as suffering; however, without the presence of clinging, the experience of bodily phenomena such as sickness and physical pain are not experienced as suffering. "

what he said

Bothi. one, such as Jason, can be a compassionate teacher of the Buddha-Dhamma for you

Jason said:

While the Buddha did include both mental and physical pain in his description of dukkha, sickness and physical pain aren't necessarily experienced as dukkha by noble ones, especially arahants, i.e., people whose minds are completely free of defilements.

Yes, that's an important point. Likewise aging, sickness and death are not dukkha for a Buddha.

Spiny

vinlyn said:

That Buddhists are the only ones who can see the ultimate truth.

Yes, we need to be wary of attaching to views. But it seems to me the first Noble Truth is a pretty straightforward statement about how things are: "suffering exists". And this isn't like a belief we need to sign up to, it's something that can be clearly observed right here and right now.

Spiny

Cinorjer said:

So is education the answer?

I think it's an important first step. Understanding how our mind works is necessary if we are going to master it.

Spiny

SpinyNorman said:

vinlyn said:

That Buddhists are the only ones who can see the ultimate truth.

Yes, we need to be wary of attaching to views. But it seems to me the first Noble Truth is a pretty straightforward statement about how things are: "suffering exists". And this isn't like a belief we need to sign up to, it's something that can be clearly observed right here and right now.

I see nothing in the first Noble Truth that most of my non-Buddhist friends would find fault with.

Jason said:

In the context that the Buddha uses it, ariya — which original referred to someone born into the higher classes of Brahmanical society — means 'spiritually ennobled,' someone who has direct insight into the four noble truths. The four noble truths, then, are thus called 'noble' because they are truths that help lead one to becoming a spiritually ennobled person. (For reference, see Peter Harvey's notes to his translation of SN 56.11.)

The Buddha is often represented as mentioning the importance of leading a "noble life". What is this "noble life"? It is the life that results in two kinds of fruits -- the here-and-now fruit of diminished stress, something that the Buddha claimed anyone who decides to follow his instructions will shortly be in a position to personally verify, and the ultimate fruit of the final release (nibbana leading eventually to parinibbana).

vinlyn said:

I see nothing in the first Noble Truth that most of my non-Buddhist friends would find fault with.

'Most' being the keyword. Believe it or not, I've met people who vehemently disagree that there is suffering in life.

vinlyn said:

This is a very good discussion...a very helpful discussion (particularly as the discussion has matured).

But I begin to also see an attachment that is common to virtually all religions. That Buddhist views are indisputable. That Buddhist views are "common sense". That Buddhists are the only ones who can see the ultimate truth.

Interesting observations. Not sure what exactly were you referring to when you mentioned this 'ultimate truth', but it is important to note that the Buddha never taught the ultimate truth. He was only interested in instructing people on how to attain the ultimate fruit -- the release from stress and suffering. As for the ultimate truth, it is precisely the thirst for attaining it that is causing suffering and stress in the first place. The search for the ultimate truth is, according to the Buddha, the very ignorance that results in birth, ageing, sickness, death, the entire mass of lamentation and suffering. Learning and fully realizing that there is no such thing as the ultimate truth is the eradication of ignorance (avidya in Sanskrit). As such, Buddhists cannot be reproached as those who are attached to the sentiment that theirs is the 'ultimate truth'. We don't have an 'ultimate truth', and thus we cannot see the 'ultimate truth'.

For further elaboration on this, please compare the Buddha's sermon on the man shot with a poisoned arrow...

taiyaki said:

ignorance is a specific type of ignorance that encompasses everything.

i recall hearing a lecture from a monk saying that omniscience is not knowing everything but knowing what makes happiness and what makes suffering.

Then why call it 'omniscience' if it is not knowing everything?

Because knowing that is all one needs to know.

Who knows though. Maybe it might mean everything. But the knowledge of the four noble truths is pretty all encompassing.

nigelart said:

Believe it or not, I've met people who vehemently disagree that there is suffering in life.

They must be living in complete denial.

Spiny

Jason said:

In the context that the Buddha uses it, ariya — which original referred to someone born into the higher classes of Brahmanical society — means 'spiritually ennobled,' someone who has direct insight into the four noble truths. The four noble truths, then, are thus called 'noble' because they are truths that help lead one to becoming a spiritually ennobled person. (For reference, see Peter Harvey's notes to his translation of SN 56.11.)

Ariya means "without enemy" (where suffering is the "enemy")

Arāti [a + rāti, cp. Sk. arāti] an enemy Dāvs iv.1.

Ari [Ved. ari; fr. ṛ] an enemy. -- The word is used in exegesis & word expln, thus in etym. of arahant (see ref. under arahant v.);

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/contextualize.pl?p.0.pali.923682

Visuddhimagga @ page 188 said:

4. Herein, what he recollects firstly is that the Blessed One is accomplished (arahanta)
for the following reasons: (i) because of remoteness (áraka), and (ii) because of
his enemies (ari) and (iii) the spokes (ara) having been destroyed (hata), and (iv)
because of his worthiness (araha) of requisites, etc., and (v) because of absence of
secret (rahábháva) evil-doing.**

5. (i) He stands utterly remote and far away from all defilements because he has
expunged all trace of defilement by means of the path—because of such
remoteness (áraka) he is accomplished (arahanta).

A man remote (áraka) indeed we call
From something he has not at all;
The Saviour too that has no stain
May well the name “accomplished” (arahanta) gain.

6. (ii) And these enemies (ari), these defilements, are destroyed (hata) by the
path—because the enemies are thus destroyed he is accomplished (arahanta)
also.

The enemies (ari) that were deployed,
Greed and the rest, have been destroyed (hata)
By his, the Helper’s, wisdom’s sword,
So he is “accomplished” (arahanta), all accord.

**. Cf. derivation of the word ariya (“noble”) at M-a I 21.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nanamoli/PathofPurification2011.pdf

Interesting. Thanks for sharing that, @WallyB.