meditation question

So, I've been on the forum for a while now. I don't post much but I read a lot. I read a lot of books too and listen to dharma talks. (brad warner, kenneth folk, stephen bachelor etc). I was going to my local Zen center for a while and even went on a 2 day retreat, but at a distance of 30 minutes away on top of a 6 day a week job and 3 kids...well, I don't get there very often and haven't been for months.
Now I meditate every day and the times vary. Some days for 2 15 min sessions, or 1 20 min session or less. I've been doing this for a year and a half now and I still can't even hold my attention on my breath. After about 10 minutes I don't need to because my thoughts calm down by themselves but quite often this is the end of my session. I also get very tired as the only times i can meditate are first thing in the morning or late at night. What am i doing wrong? I really should be further along in my practice.

So, I've been on the forum for a while now. I don't post much but I read a lot. I read a lot of books too and listen to dharma talks. (brad warner, kenneth folk, stephen bachelor etc). I was going to my local Zen center for a while and even went on a 2 day retreat, but at a distance of 30 minutes away on top of a 6 day a week job and 3 kids...well, I don't get there very often and haven't been for months.
Now I meditate every day and the times vary. Some days for 2 15 min sessions, or 1 20 min session or less. I've been doing this for a year and a half now and I still can't even hold my attention on my breath. After about 10 minutes I don't need to because my thoughts calm down by themselves but quite often this is the end of my session. I also get very tired as the only times i can meditate are first thing in the morning or late at night. What am i doing wrong? I really should be further along in my practice.

I've been meditating 10 years and often it is like that. The difference is that I don't think I *should* be anything or anywhere. At the same time it is a good idea to think about what you are looking for in meditation. So what is your goal with meditation? Think about it. You might find that in your life the meditation *has* had some positivity. Or not. If you give up meditation for awhile and feelings of resenting buddhism come up or even undercurrents examine those. I think it can feel liberating if you just relieve some pressure to actualize and take a break for awhile. But resenting buddhism is just a house of cards negative feeling. So I think finding out why you meditate and letting go of expectations.

chanratt said:

So, I've been on the forum for a while now. I don't post much but I read a lot. I read a lot of books too and listen to dharma talks. (brad warner, kenneth folk, stephen bachelor etc). I was going to my local Zen center for a while and even went on a 2 day retreat, but at a distance of 30 minutes away on top of a 6 day a week job and 3 kids...well, I don't get there very often and haven't been for months.
Now I meditate every day and the times vary. Some days for 2 15 min sessions, or 1 20 min session or less. I've been doing this for a year and a half now and I still can't even hold my attention on my breath. After about 10 minutes I don't need to because my thoughts calm down by themselves but quite often this is the end of my session. I also get very tired as the only times i can meditate are first thing in the morning or late at night. What am i doing wrong? I really should be further along in my practice.

what else do you expect? you said you should be further along in your practice...
where do you think you should be?
I am not trying to be philosophical or anything...just trying to see from your perspective..

perhaps add some kasina meditation to your practice, this will help with the sleepiness.

since you don't seem to have much time for more on the cushion meditation, perhaps focus your practice a bit more on your daily life.
perhaps keep a journal, the simple act logging your mindfulness in your daily life can help you tremendously be more mindful off the cushion.

You are doing just fine.

I just expect to have developed more concentration that being able to count to 10 three times then drifting off. I'm not looking to have experiences and blissful states right now.....just concentration.

@chanratt As a new practitioner myself, I identify with a lot of your struggles. I find that after ten minutes or so, the monkey mind has settled down a bit and I'm much more able to focus on my breath rising and falling.

I think it's important to label the thoughts as you sweep them aside and return to the breath.

Another issue I had when starting to meditate was that I always practiced with my eyes closed. This allowed me to get tired quickly, especially if I already was tired to begin with, and also allow more picture-thoughts - for lack of a better word - to intrude. Meditating with my eyes open has made a great deal of difference in my practice.

I will certainly take @patbb 's advice...being more mindful during the day would also improve your meditation practice...they go together hand by hand...

You could mix it up and add walking meditation, or present moment awareness, which will help with concentration.

The problem with "trying " to concentrate is that the way you make it sound is as if you are struggling or fighting with yourself when it should really arise naturally.

You could also try to focus on the heart beats...the beats are constant and you don't have to fight them or control them. Just feel the constant beating rhythm and use that as an anchor.

Naturally, you must be very still to listen and concentration will arise naturally. After 10minutes you will begin to sense the pulsing in all parts of your body and it feels very alive andsoothing...

Make sense...easier than chasing the breath.

weighted said:

@chanratt As a new practitioner myself, I identify with a lot of your struggles. I find that after ten minutes or so, the monkey mind has settled down a bit and I'm much more able to focus on my breath rising and falling.

I think it's important to label the thoughts as you sweep them aside and return to the breath.

Another issue I had when starting to meditate was that I always practiced with my eyes closed. This allowed me to get tired quickly, especially if I already was tired to begin with, and also allow more picture-thoughts - for lack of a better word - to intrude. Meditating with my eyes open has made a great deal of difference in my practice.

Hmmm..yes i'm guilty of closing the old eyes most of the time. i try to open them but they always end up closed again lol.

chanratt said:

After about 10 minutes I don't need to because my thoughts calm down by themselves but quite often this is the end of my session.

Have you tried extending the session to 25, 30, 40 minutes?

@chanratt, I just had a thought, ironically while drifting off in thought in my own meditation. I think that when you notice you are thinking that in itself can be a practice of metta to gently let go of any fears or worries.

I think the main goal for someone that doesn't have much time for meditation should be a better life not necessarily a better meditation. A better life is really the goal for everyone, but being good at meditation, like anything, takes time. If you were trying to learn the piano and only able to practice 10-20 minutes a day how good would you be at that? Stilling the monkey mind is probably harder and the rest of the day tends to rile the monkey mind up.

My point is try to judge the effectiveness of your meditation on how it effects your daily life more than on how good the actual session is.

@ chanratt

Have you tried mahasati meditation? Perhaps the breath is too subtle an object for you at the moment.

[Also known as Dynamic meditation, Mahasati Meditation is a form of mindfulness meditation. It is a technique developed by the late Thai Buddhist reformist, Luangpor Teean Jittasubho.]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahasati_meditation

chanratt said:

Now I meditate every day and the times vary. Some days for 2 15 min sessions, or 1 20 min session or less. What am i doing wrong? I really should be further along in my practice.

I often find that it takes 15 or 20 minutes for my mind to quieten down. So maybe you could try extending your meditation a bit, say to half an hour? Also see if you can get some face-to-face advice from somebody experienced in meditation, some tips on technique might be useful.

Spiny

What am i doing wrong?

@chanratt -- The answer to your question -- and one you will have to learn to be at peace with -- is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

Just keep doing what you are doing. Do your best and a little at a time the expectations will drop away by themselves. Notions of "right" and "wrong" will move to Tennessee or Oklahoma or wherever they go when they are not nipping at our heels.

This life is your life. Get used to it.

genkaku said:

Notions of "right" and "wrong" will move to Tennessee or Oklahoma or wherever they go when they are not nipping at our heels.

Though I think there are correct and incorrect ways to do meditation, and it's good to get advice on technique and method.

Spiny

chanratt said:

What am i doing wrong? I really should be further along in my practice.

You are no more doing wrong than you are doing right.

Ponder on your expectations - what it is that you are achieving with your practice or where you want to be for example?

There is no linear path - there is no further along - there just 'is'...

In all likelihood...

Practically speaking you could try different forms of meditation to be practiced simultaneously with your day to day obligations - for example you can practice mindfulness of breath when doing the washing up - miyagi style - wax on, wax off, breathe in, breathe out... why am I putting wax on my washing you may ask...? hmmmm...

Though I think there are correct and incorrect ways to do meditation, and it's good to get advice on technique and method.

@SpinyNorman -- OK ... how about

Sit down
Erect the spine
Shut up
Sit still

Focus the mind and ...

See what happens?

+1 for erect the spine (but don't overdo, the position should be comfortable).
Another tip I recently came across is to support the mindfulness with very subtle thoughts:

on the inbreath, very softly think 'in' (or 'rising')
on the outbreath, very softly think 'out' (or 'falling')

This thoughts should remain in the background. This way, you engage your thinking a little bit (you give it something to do), while not allowing it to take over and lead you to tropical islands, etc.

From someone with a lot of experience: Pema Chodron
http://www.shambhala.org/teachers/pema/shenpa3b.php# :

"Say, for instance, you meditated and you felt a sort of settling and a sort of calmness, a sense of well-being. And maybe thoughts came and went, but they didn't hook you, and you were able to come back, and there wasn't a sense of struggle. Afterwards, to that actually very pleasant experience: shenpa. "I did it right, I got it right, that's how it should always be, that's the model." It either builds arrogance or conversely it builds poverty mind because next session is nothing like that.

Next session, the bad one, which is even worse now that you had the good one —and you had the shenpa to the "good" one. Do you see what I'm saying about the shenpa? In other words, is there something wrong with that meditation experience? Nothing wrong with it, but the shenpa. This is what, as practitioners, we have to get at.

Then you have the "bad" one, which is not bad. It's just that you sat there and you were very discursive and you were obsessing about someone at home, at work, something you have to do— you worried and you fretted, or you got into a fear or anger. Anyway, you were wildly discursive, and you were trying to rope in this wild horse who refused to be tamed, and you just felt like it was a horrible meditation session. At the end of it you feel discouraged, and it was bad and you're bad for the bad meditation. And you could feel hopeless.

That's why I told the story about my meditation last night, because really, someone like me, I'd say, would have taken my own life long ago based on if I had been trained in good and bad —that it's supposed to be like this and not this. But from the beginning, even though it took ten years to even start to penetrate, I was always told not to judge yourself. Don't get caught in good or bad, it's just what it is."

Hi chanratt. Seem to recall basically the same OP a couple of years ago, and a lot of the same helpful answers. It also sounds like you have read plenty of Dharma stuff and don't need any more theory. I bet the answers on this thread are heard and dropped like the last ones..... So what gives? Does someone have to hold your hand? Please don't get me wrong, I'm not picking on you, but like the saying goes "sh*t or get off the pot".
Forget about Buddhism for a while and try to fill up on the world, because you not going to knuckle under and really apply yourself until you really see no choice.

@possibilities Chodron is wise indeed. Many thanks for posting this.

genkaku said:

Though I think there are correct and incorrect ways to do meditation, and it's good to get advice on technique and method.

@SpinyNorman -- OK ... how about

Sit down
Erect the spine
Shut up
Sit still

Focus the mind and ...

See what happens?

Yes, of course. But how to "focus the mind"? How to apply supporting techniques like counting or labelling? How to deal with the hindrances? Etc. It isn't all that easy.

Spiny

;)

@spinynorman - its a very personal and subtle question that... best to stick close to a teacher with lineage until it answers itself...

In MVHO, there should be no attempt at focusing. I've heard Sogyal Rinpoche compare the mind in meditation to a glass of muddy water. The more we leave that water without interfering or stirring, the more the particles of dirt will sink to the bottom, letting the natural clarity of the water shine. The nature of the mind is such that if you only leave it in its unaltered, natural state, it will find its true nature, which is bliss and clarity.

Don't impose anything on the mind in meditation; no efforts to control or even "be peaceful." Let go of even the idea that you are meditating. Simply sit with the breath.

BonsaiDoug said:

In MVHO, there should be no attempt at focusing.

focusing might be a term that you (and i think many other people as well) understand as "squeezing your brain", like squinting really hard to see something, linked with tensing...
is that right?

anyhow the focusing is very important, in the sense that our mind usually goes all over the place and this is what gets the water muddy.

but perhaps changing the term "focusing" with "re-directing" the attention might solve this conundrum.

just re-directing the attention peacefully on a object (weather it be something to look at, a sound to hear, letting go, the present moment, a picture in the imagination, a candle, the observer etc...)

this has the effect of calming the mind, keeping it much less hyper active or even still for a bit so the muddy water can settle..

Meditation is training the mind.
2 things I noticed,
1. your sessions are too short, try to aim for 1 hr seating
increase it gradually from 10 min.
2. what is your technique? do you just watch your breath?
sounds like you need more instructions.

BonsaiDoug said:

Simply sit with the breath.

Yes, but that is easier said than done.

Spiny

Zero said:

@spinynorman - its a very personal and subtle question that... best to stick close to a teacher with lineage until it answers itself...

There is certainly no substitute for having a meditation teacher, or at least having contact with more exerienced meditators.

Spiny

my personal opinion is that 15-20 minutes is not long enough to establish any real concentration. you can also try to develop generosity and morality, they will greatly help your meditation.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/merit.html

ajnast4r said:

my personal opinion is that 15-20 minutes is not long enough to establish any real concentration.

I agree. And often it's only when people go on retreat and do some serious meditation that they begin to understand what it's really about.

Spiny

SpinyNorman said:

BonsaiDoug said:

Simply sit with the breath.

Yes, but that is easier said than done.

Spiny

Very true. But if it was easy, everyone would want to do it! ;)

ajnast4r said:

my personal opinion is that 15-20 minutes is not long enough to establish any real concentration.

Totally agree! For me, something happened at the 20 minute mark. Once I passed that, my sittings became much easier and relaxed (for lack of a better word). I was able to give up the timer, and simply get up when I feel like it. I went from struggling to sit for 15 minutes, to sitting 45-50 minutes each morning with little or no difficulty.

ajnast4r said:

my personal opinion is that 15-20 minutes is not long enough to establish any real concentration. you can also try to develop generosity and morality, they will greatly help your meditation.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/merit.html

I think you hit the nail on the head. I have upped my sit to 25-30 mins and it does seem to make the world of difference. For me something happens at 10 minutes, but like Bonsai, once i hit 20 minutes I feel like I could sit for much longer (but usually can't because I either have to get my ass to work or get my ass to bed so i can get my ass up for work!) I have stopped worrying about losing count of my breath; now i just sit and observe. That seems to work the best for me.