Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Examples: Monday, today, last week, Mar 26, 3/26/04
Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.

All Kids are born geniuses,but are crushed by society itself - Michio Kaku

DaltheJigsawDaltheJigsaw Mountain View Veteran
edited February 2012 in General Banter

Comments

  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    Very good point he makes. Thanks for posting.

    Though as a stickler for accuracy he was saying that all kids are born scientists, but their curiosity is crushed.
  • DaltheJigsawDaltheJigsaw Mountain View Veteran
    Very good point he makes. Thanks for posting.

    Though as a stickler for accuracy he was saying that all kids are born scientists, but their curiosity is crushed.
    Correct! And welcome:)
  • I lovvve this video! Expresses my EXACT thoughts on the issue of the educational system. The way school is set up, with its pointless memorization and repetition and homework, it BORES KIDS while simultaneously educating them in an incredibly ineffective way. I am the perfect example. Regardless of how it sounds, cocky or whatever, it is a necessary point to make. I am very intelligent, and I and everyone who has known me knows this. HOWEVER, I did quite poorly in school. Why? I have gotten an A on basically every test I have ever taken and paper I have written. Why, then, did I not get good grades in school? Homework. I have never saw any reason to do homework. I have always found school to be verrrry easy, and had a very easy time understanding it. The purpose of homework is to help the students understand it, and I can understand it better than my peers without doing homework or studying. Why, then, would I do homework? So I have never done it, and have never gotten good grades. It was the same with Einstein, who never took school seriously and actually dropped out of high school.

    "It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education." - Albert Einstein
  • I will apologize in advance, I cannot watch videos until my neighborhood gets faster internet.

    I just went through a training that was a reminder to me since I have studied some of this before. But a major point was praise vs encouragement. This is HUGE not just for kids, but to understand the dangers in saying 'good job' all the time. It has to do with the distinction of praise which is based on the judgement of the person saying the praise, as compared to encouragement which leaves the judgement to the person recieving.

    So praise is something like 'good job on that science project, you are very smart'
    (what exactly was the part praised? kid feels need to 'be smart' and takes fewer creative risks)

    Encouragement sounds like 'Wow, your science project has many details in the presentation and your model. The body and legs look just like the lunar module. How did you do ____?"
    (the kid knows what specifically you noticed, they are encouraged to talk about their project and what they learned, more able to keep natural curiosity)

    Okay this whole 'praise isnt the best thing' can REALLY push some buttons for people, especially those of us who work with kids. But the research and my own experience supports it. If you want to check it out try to not say 'good job' for a day but instead just point out positive factual things. You can PM me or have a conversation here if I have not wandered too far off topic (if the same info on the video is in printed form I would like to read it)
  • shanyinshanyin Novice Yogin Sault Ontario Veteran
    thank you leon
  • This is exactly why alternative schools were invented.
  • DaltheJigsawDaltheJigsaw Mountain View Veteran
    thank you leon
    Welcome friend!:)
  • DaltheJigsawDaltheJigsaw Mountain View Veteran
    This is exactly why alternative schools were invented.
    Want to add a bit more?
  • Telly03Telly03 Veteran
    edited February 2012
    Very good point, thanks
  • ZenBadgerZenBadger Derbyshire, UK Veteran
    I can't play videos at work but I have heard his argument before. Unfortunately the optimal education would be maybe two or three children to one very learned polymath. We can't do that on the taxes we want to pay so to enable all children to have a basic education we have to cut corners and that means dozens of children to a teacher and structured lessons to help the less-than-genius among the teaching faculty.

    The other argument is what is the purpose of education? Modern schools developed during the industrial revolution to turn out fodder for the mills and factories while enabling the odd clerk or scribe to be identified and sent to his correct position in the system. Dickens' Hard Times is a good example of this kind of school. To be frank I think we have a relatively good compromise at the moment, we just need the bits on the fringe - libraries, evening schools, distance learning and access to information - to keep going in order to allow people to follow their own interests outside the system.
  • Kaku's a legend of popular science.

    What is education really in this society? How much is it a filtering mechanism and how much about actual learning - my physics teacher took the time once to explain how a laser works - he was kind of like that - there was mass objection from the class as it wasnt covered by the syllabus - I still remember that class and how lasers work (though the rest have blurred together into obscurity).

    In a society driven by greed and gain, the next generation are brought up to participate and keep the system going... it makes sense when you consider it from a gain perspective but very little sense from a human progression point of view.
  • There are different types of intelligence, and the "usual" school style isn't the best for all intelligece types. However, there is also something to be said for learning to deal in an environment that isn't optimal for you all the time, since life is rarely so kind anyway. It's good to let kids explore and learn naturally, but without some shaping, some kids will learn everything in one area and nothing in another. I don't think our society would support that, as opposed to most people having a general base to start from.

    By the way, and I say this as someone who has worked with kids for a long time - it's often not the schools that stifle kids, but the parents. Kids go to school and come home, where in a lot of cases they are shuffled around to so many extra-curricular activities that they can't keep up. Some parents are so busy trying to "build a genius" that they ignore natural abilities and natural limitations. I have a teen I work with now who's out every night, plus weekends, at different activities: yoga, cooking classes, dance classes, math classes, art classes, karate...you name it. Her parents say they're trying to make up for the public system by giving her more opportunities. Good intentions, but the poor kid (13 yrs old) is exhausted and just wants to watch tv. The horror of it all --- what if she turns out to be average?!
  • @raven I totally agree. I have been in affluent schools and it is typical to have these kids so busy you want to scream for them. My kids had a hard time just having other kids to hang out and play with since they were all so busy with acitivities. I have said in that district you teach like all kids are gifted, in another district with poverty and gangs and parents who are doing something very different you teaching like they all are learning disabled. (please understand this is a style not a judgement).

    Okay I have a middle kid who never really learned that sometimes things like the school system or the world is what we need to adapt to instead of having it customized for us. So while I have agreed with this POV for a long time I am seriously questioning some of it now. Which may not relate at all.

    I still think the praise/encouragement point is valid, it is possible with 2 kids or 30, possible by parents, teachers, anyone really. It is a hard thing to learn at times but it does affect our kids.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran


    Kaku's a legend of popular science.

    Yes, Kaku is a legend of popular science, and he has an impressive resume, particularly in physics. He really has quite an impressive life, beginning with his family history and continuing through string physics. But I wonder if, to some extent, he lives in a Shelton Cooper/Leonard Hofstadter/Howard Wolowitz/Raj Koothrappali kind of environment. In a profession where the joy of science is the stuff life and dreams are made of. In a family setting where science is looked on in a special way which simply cannot be replicated in a normal household. It's sort of like when I was a principal and held interviews to hire a teacher. A pretty standard question for me was, "What's the most important subject in middle school." More often than not, the prospective English teacher would say English, the prospective math teacher would say math, the prospective history teacher would say social studies, and the prospective science teacher would say science. My ideal candidate -- and this was rare -- was the one who could actually put his or her subject in perspective, as related to the four core subjects of middle school.

    Back in the late 1970s, I was teaching earth science in Maryland where it was a 9th grade subject...as it apparently is for Kaku's child (based on the child taking a Regents exam...presumably in New York State...where I began my career). Continental drift/plate tectonics was in the curriculum, and Maryland (as well as Virginia) were quite ideal to study the phenomenon. The landforms were classic examples of what you would find in a region where plate tectonics had been active (for example, the horst and grabens of the fault block region in the area of Thurmont). The rocks were classic examples of what you would find in the old subduction zone (basalt, for example). And so, as part of my graduate program in teaching earth science, I developed a lab activity designed to lead students to be able to identify the various geologic provinces in Maryland, how they related to plate tectonics. And ultimately, they would be able to actually identify the boundary of the subduction zone, the major geosyncline, etc. I went around Maryland from the Atlantic Coastal Plain to far western Maryland and core of the Appalachians and collected extensive rock samples. I took photographs of the various landforms in each area. I prepared topographic maps. Etc. To be immodest, it was really quite impressive work, and turned quite a few heads at the university.

    As a lab, in a 9th grade classroom, it was rather a flop. Because -- and here's where I believe Kaku gets it wrong -- these 14 year-olds didn't have the background in the basics of geology to be really able to conceptualize plate tectonics, and particularly not to be able to conceptualize it in the field. Kaku makes light of the lab identifying minerals using Moh's scale of hardness, doing the scratch test, using 10% hydrochloric acid to test for calcite, etc. It was in our curriculum, and yet, these kids couldn't comfortably identify basalt, granite, limestone, sandstone, etc. So that part of the lab on plate tectonics went over their head. They had read about fault block mountains and peneplains, etc. But that was not the same as looking at a topographic map and photo and being able to visualize it. And trust me, to get to the point where one can really have a grasp of plate tectonics takes far more basic geology than one learns in a 9th grade course in earth science, or for that matter a first year course in physical geology at college.

    I am sort of reminded of my geomorphology professor, for whom I was a grad assistant. Computers were just getting into college geology labs, and one day he was at the computer and quite engrossed with something. "Come over and look at this." I did, and the printer was spewing out some rather exotic looking profiles. "What is that," I asked. "It's the profile of a hillside in a glaciated area." By that time I had done a fair amount of field work in the glaciated areas of western NYS, and I said, "I've never seen a hill slope that looked remotely like that." "Oh, you're right," he responded. "None exist. It's just a conceptual exercise." Okay. Fine. But not for Kaku's 9th grade earth science student.

    Back in the mid 1960s, there was a movement in earth science education to develop ESCP -- the Earth Science Curriculum Project. It was quite cutting edge. I hated the textbooks, because they had no factual information. The texts were all about posing questions. One day, for example, you would pose a question to the kids: "How could we identify how plate tectonics affected Maryland?" And for one 45 minute period the class was supposed to sit around and discuss how they might go about solving such a problem. The problem was, the kids didn't have the background to do so, so you would often not get to the second step -- creating a lab based on some kid's idea. It was rarely very practical, although it was more like real science.

    We like to pretend in science education. We pretend that the labs we do are examples of how scientists work. Yet, we give kids the "purpose", the list of materials, the step by step procedures, they write down their observations that are totally predictable, and they come to the only conclusions possible based on how we adults set up the lab activity. That's not how science works. But it is how 9th grade earth science works.




  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    I remember a 4th grade project where we learnt about insulation. The project was to make a cardboard box with a window in it and insulate it as best we could so that a thermometer would stay as warm as possible. Basic materials were provided but our teams were all free to make the box however we thought best.

    To me this seems like a way we were able to learn about a subject while using our creativity and imagination.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    I remember a 4th grade project where we learnt about insulation. The project was to make a cardboard box with a window in it and insulate it as best we could so that a thermometer would stay as warm as possible. Basic materials were provided but our teams were all free to make the box however we thought best.

    To me this seems like a way we were able to learn about a subject while using our creativity and imagination.
    I don't disagree.

    How many class periods did you spend on it?

  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    I remember a 4th grade project where we learnt about insulation. The project was to make a cardboard box with a window in it and insulate it as best we could so that a thermometer would stay as warm as possible. Basic materials were provided but our teams were all free to make the box however we thought best.

    To me this seems like a way we were able to learn about a subject while using our creativity and imagination.
    I don't disagree.

    How many class periods did you spend on it?


    This was 30 years ago, I'm glad I remembered that much. A day or two I think?
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    edited February 2012
    So maybe there should be a separate course called "The Love Of Science". But that kind of activity doesn't allow the teacher to teach -- for example -- all the important content of what is included in earth science -- physical geology, historical geology, meteorology, climatology, and astronomy...all in 180 days.

    It kind of gets down to, which do you want to teach -- your content, or kids. I'm not so sure you can successfully do both. If you teach to the imagination curiosity of kids, then your content is going to be very superficial, and not address what is needed as they move into college.
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    I guess my bias is that I've always learned better and had more interest in learning when I had some reason to learn about something. For example if I wanted to build a piece of furniture or something I could easily dive into learning about types of material, styles, etc. In contrast if I were to attend a class about building materials, furniture styles I would quickly get bored and unmotivated. I'm pretty lazy that way so this may have more to do with me.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    I guess my bias is that I've always learned better and had more interest in learning when I had some reason to learn about something. For example if I wanted to build a piece of furniture or something I could easily dive into learning about types of material, styles, etc. In contrast if I were to attend a class about building materials, furniture styles I would quickly get bored and unmotivated. I'm pretty lazy that way so this may have more to do with me.
    Actually, I think that's fairly common, and is part of the problem in education. How many kids would choose to study 4 years of history, 3 or 4 years of science, 4 years of math, 4 years of English...not to mention what I refer to as "forced electives". Yet, such a base of study is important.

  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited February 2012
    There's the Waldorf School (nationwide) that allows kids to choose what they want to study. From what I understand, there's no fixed curriculum. The kids just spontaneously pick or suggest study topics based on whatever captures their interest. Somehow, by the end of highschool, they've learned what they need to know to get into college. It all works out in the end, from what I'm told. Does anyone have any info on success rates for that program?

    @ImmersedOne It sounds like you needed to be in a gifted kids program.
  • For you Brits: does anyone know how the Summerhill students did, as far as university admissions go? How long did that school last? Remain open, I mean.
  • @vinlyn, can I come teach for you? Or do you have any advice for an interview where you explain you are a great 'outside the box' teacher as is currently a popular thing to say, but sometimes your resume looks like you have been outside the box (lack of teaching jobs). Sigh,...
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    The problem with being outside the box in the teaching profession, is that when you sign the contract with the Board Of Education, you agree to work from inside the box in return for your pay.
  • @Leon and @Dakini http://www.summerhillschool.co.uk/

    It's still going strong. Alternative schools, progressive schools, can range from the radical (Summerhill has little in the way of structured classes, IIRC) to the more conventional, in which there are structured classes and curricula like in any school, but the selection of study materials may not be standard. For example, a friend of mine attended a progressive school that was college-preparatory. In Latin class, instead of reading classical texts, they read Winnie-the-Pooh in Latin. Alternative schools can be found in the public school system in some states, and in private schools as well. (I understand those labels are reversed in the UK; what we call public schools are called "private" there.) Generally they allow for more creativity and student-directed or independent work.

    Leon, you may enjoy reading the book, "Summerhill", by A.S. Neill, to get a feel for the alternative school concept.

  • @ImmersedOne It sounds like you needed to be in a gifted kids program.
    The school offered to move me up grade-wise when I was younger, but my parents, and me to some degree, decided against it, because of the likely negative social implications that would have resulted from me being in a higher grade, especially since I was one of the younger ones in my grade as it was. Being moved up isn't a REAL solution anyways, I don't think. I would have still been subjected to the same essential system. I don't really know much of anything about these "gifted programs," and if they allow for more freedom in the learning environment and things like that.
Sign In or Register to comment.