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As being an American. Why do I feel like a lot of Americans want a theocracy?
I'll see if I can dig it out, but I was reading a big, USA survey which showed that far from wanting a theocracy, the vast majority of Americans were basically secularists who disapproved of this blurring of church and state. Most believe in the existence of 'god', but when you dig a little deeper, their definitions of god were basically woolly.
The number of atheists has increased dramatically, as have the numbers of non-monotheists, including Buddhists, Hindus, Pagans etc.
The conclusion of the survey was that whilst the majority of Americans pay lip service to the idea of USA being a 'Christian' country, it was more culturally Christian than religious Christian.
I found it extremely encouraging, coming from the other side of the pond, to realise that most Americans were not bat-sh*t insane Santorum-fans. But in the USA and UK, the fundamentalist, Christian Taliban punch way above their weight and make a lot more noise than the saner people. Which is why I've decided to join the National Secular Society in UK, which is campaigning against this. The last thing any of us need is a bunch of Evangelicals running our countries, with ideas about putting democracy back 50 years and possibly starting WWIII in order to fulfil 'prophecy' (shudder)
I'm glad you posted about this. Thank you.
I'm not sure what you mean by "woolly". I guess that must be a British term. Does it mean "fuzzy" or "indistinct"? If so, i can understand that, but I think that may be a dose of reality. Personally, I do believe in God, but I have long thought that man does not understand what God really is or how "he" works. But clearly, the idea that you can pray to God and have him answer your prayers...well, I just don't think so, because we all know that rarely (if ever) happens. For the most part, I think life is up to us.
I really that definition that the U.S. is "culturally Christian", not "religiously Christian". I had never thought of that, but I think it's a significant distinction.
As to your National Secular Society...good intention. Of course, such organizations may just tent to goad the evangelicals to be even more evangelical toward government interference. Time will tell.
To the citizens of the United States of America from Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II:
In light of your immediate failure to financially manage yourselves and also in recent years your tendency to elect incompetent Presidents of the USA and therefore not able to govern yourselves, we hereby give notice of the revocation of your independence, effective immediately. (You should look up 'revocation' in the Oxford English Dictionary.)
Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II will resume monarchical duties over all states, commonwealths, and territories (except Kansas , which she does not fancy).
Your new Prime Minister, David Cameron, will appoint a Governor for America without the need for further elections.
Congress and the Senate will be disbanded. A questionnaire may be circulated sometime next year to determine whether any of you noticed.
To aid in the transition to a British Crown dependency, the following rules are introduced with immediate effect:
1. The letter 'U' will be reinstated in words such as 'colour,' 'favour,' 'labour' and 'neighbour.' Likewise, you will learn to spell 'doughnut' without skipping half the letters, and the suffix '-ize' will be replaced by the suffix '-ise.'Generally, you will be expected to raise your vocabulary to acceptable levels. (look up 'vocabulary'). (I love that one)
Using the same twenty-seven words interspersed with filler noises such as ''like' and 'you know' is an unacceptable and inefficient form of communication. There is no such thing as U.S. English. We will let Microsoft know on your behalf. The Microsoft spell-checker will be adjusted to take into account the reinstated letter 'u'' and the elimination of '-ize.' ' (I love that one too)
3. July 4th will no longer be celebrated as a holiday.
4. You will learn to resolve personal issues without using guns, lawyers, or therapists. The fact that you need so many lawyers and therapists shows that you're not quite ready to be independent. Guns should only be used for shooting grouse. If you can't sort things out without suing someone or speaking to a therapist, then you're not ready to shoot grouse.
5. Therefore, you will no longer be allowed to own or carry anything more dangerous than a vegetable peeler. Although a permit will be required if you wish to carry a vegetable peeler in public.
6. All intersections will be replaced with roundabouts, and you will start driving on the left side with immediate effect. At the same time, you will go metric with immediate effect and without the benefit of conversion tables. Both roundabouts and metrication will help you understand the British sense of humour.
7. The former USA will adopt UK prices on petrol (which you have been calling gasoline) of roughly $10/US gallon. Get used to it.)
8.You will learn to make real chips. Those things you call French fries are not real chips, and those things you insist on calling potato chips are properly called crisps. Real chips are thick cut, fried in animal fat, and dressed not with catsup but with vinegar.
9. The cold, tasteless stuff you insist on calling beer is not actually beer at all. Henceforth, only proper British Bitter will be referred to as beer, and European brews of known and accepted provenance will be referred to as Lager. New Zealand beer is also acceptable, as New Zealand is pound for pound the greatest sporting nation on earth and it can only be due to the beer. They are also part of the British Commonwealth - see what it did for them. American brands will be referred to as Near-Frozen Gnat's Urine, so that all can be sold without risk of further confusion.
10. Hollywood will be required occasionally to cast English actors as good guys. Hollywood will also be required to cast English actors to play English characters. Watching Andie Macdowell attempt English dialogue in Four Weddings and a Funeral was an experience akin to having one's ears removed with a cheese grater.
11. You will cease playing American football. There are only two kinds of proper football; one you call soccer, and rugby (dominated by the New Zealanders). Those of you brave enough will, in time, be allowed to play rugby (which has some similarities to American football, but does not involve stopping for a rest every twenty seconds or wearing full kevlar body armour like a bunch of nancies).
12. Further, you will stop playing baseball. It is not reasonable to host an event called the World Series for a game which is not played outside of America . Since only 2.1% of you are aware there is a world beyond your borders, your error is understandable. You will learn cricket, and we will let you face the Australians (World dominators) first to take the sting out of their deliveries.
13. You must tell us who killed JFK. It's been driving us mad.
14. An internal revenue agent (i.e. tax collector) from Her Majesty's Government will be with you shortly to ensure the acquisition of all monies due (backdated to 1776).
15. Daily Tea Time begins promptly at 4 p.m. with proper cups, with saucers, and never mugs, with high quality biscuits (cookies) and cakes; plus strawberries (with cream) when in season.
@Vinlyn - I believe your definition of a belief in a god is called "deism." That is what many of the founding fathers were.
Yes...sort of. Perhaps in a loose sense, because I just think we don't know.
I think that one of the biggest cop-outs in the world is that when people pray to God for something really big (like that a relative or friend is cured of cancer), and...as is typical...it doesn't happen, then they say, "Well, God works in mysterious ways." Of course, every religion has those kinds of cop-outs...like imponderables.
The United States seems to be drifting away from other developed countries over religion in public life. A candidate for President, from either party, must be seen to be a church goer, and must profess to be a Christian. In most other western countries the religious life of elected politicians is seen as a private matter, and not a public measure of qualification. Mitt Romney is an interesting case... being a Mormon he isn't Christian enough for some. I imagine the millions of Americans who are not evangelical Christians, or sympathetic with the Evangelical agenda, must feel like their country is going down the rabbit hole...
or maybe this is just the media lens? How much of the religiosity seen in the media do you live with in your daily life... your work, friends, community?
Interesting post.
I know those evangelical groups are out there. Yet, even when I was still working, as a principal, and meeting lots of people every day, I've only met a couple of them. And now, in retirement, I live in Colorado Springs, which is well known as a center of Evangelism, and I don't personally know of a single evangelical here.
I'm kind of coming to the conclusion that a few people in the evangelical movement are VERY loud, but are far more strident than the typical evangelical.
Many people do not consider Neo-conservatives to be actual conservatives precisely for the reasons stated above, and many others.
Actually, Noe-Consertaitves are Conservatives who believe America should be replacing others people's governments and replace them with a pro-American Republics. They are pro-Empire Conservatives.
But in the USA and UK, the fundamentalist, Christian Taliban punch way above their weight and make a lot more noise than the saner people.
Wow, you are a deeply morally confused individual. While I was still left-leaning in high school, it was this sort of broken moral compass thinking from people I otherwise admired, that caused me to begin my drift rightwards.
So how many women have US and UK Christian thrown acid into their faces? How many women have they cut off ears and noses? How many little girls' schools have the Christian Taliban blown up? How many Buddhist statues have the Christian Taliban dynamited? How many bodies have the Christian Taliban mutilated and hung on lampposts this year?
What strange thinking.
If you are not aware of extremist, right-wing, fundamentalist Christian groups in your country who would have exactly those sorts of thing, then I'm afraid you are missing something. Gays and transgendered individuals have been lynched, there have been bombings, shootings and various other incidents over the years. Have you forgotten the Oklahoma bombing of a few years ago? But more scary than some of the stuff they have already done is the stuff they threaten to do: like, for instance, starting World War III believing that by doing so, they are starting Armageddon.
I was a fundamentalist Christian myself for many years. I know what sort of people these are. They believe in the death penalty for adultery and homosexuality and they want women to stay at home and not go out, their heads covered when they do, just like the Taliban. The simularities are startling.
(And incidentally, they believe Buddhists are Satanists)
The Taliban are not simply identified by the atrocities you mentioned: they didn't start out like that, they started out as a nationalist, Islamic movement within Afghanistan, and we (the West) funded them to help kick out the Soviets. But they were always deeply conservative, misogynistic and violent. It's just that we used to think they were the lesser of several evils, just as some currently regard Christian extremists.
But just because you aren't aware of, and don't understand, the threat, don't start telling me that my moral compass is broken or that I'm morally confused. I happen to believe in freedom of conscience and freedom of religion, which the people we're talking about certainly don't.
Yes, Yahweh & Allah are the same god. All three faiths (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) trace themselves to Abraham.
But the ignoramus in the video says "we don't worship Allah, we worship God!"
the vast majority of Americans were basically secularists who disapproved of this blurring of church and state. Most believe in the existence of 'god', but when you dig a little deeper, their definitions of god were basically woolly. The conclusion of the survey was that whilst the majority of Americans pay lip service to the idea of USA being a 'Christian' country, it was more culturally Christian than religious Christian.
This is what I've been posting for many months. Members don't believe me. Nice to have a survey to back it up. Odd that there's such a huge disparity between what some members here experience, and what the pollsters find.
So how many women have US and UK Christian thrown acid into their faces? How many women have they cut off ears and noses? How many little girls' schools have the Christian Taliban blown up?
You never know how far they might go if they got into office. They're already rolling back abortion rights, access to contraception, and even certain aspects of health care for women. This doesn't bode well for a future under a Holy Roller President or Congress. The US doesn't have little girls' schools, it's a moot point. And btw, Tibetans used to cut of women's noses. It can happen anywhere, even in Buddhism.
Heck in even in New England (Outside the Bible Belt) a student had death threats and called an "evil little thing" by her own state Representative for suing a the school district because her school had a Christian prayer up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahlquist_v._Cranston
No matter how liberal you are with the Establishment clause. Even trying to remove even deism in government. Theists will start attacking.
Although the US government is a secular institution, and the 1796 Treaty of Tripoli states that the US "is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion," it can't be denied that our nation, and the culture that shaped it, was predominately Western European and heavily influenced by Judeo-Christian beliefs and values. All the founders were of Western European ancestry, and most were Christians and/or Deists, and Christianity itself has played a major role in American history since the arrival of the first English settlers in the early 1600s.
Christianity has dominated modern American politics for decades, as well. For example, the bill that legally establishes the National Day of Prayer was a blatant attack on atheists and political free speech, as evidenced by Sen. Absalom Robertson's (Pat Robertson's father) comment when introducing the bill in the Senate in 1952 as a measure against "the corrosive forces of communism which seek simultaneously to destroy our democratic way of life and the faith in an Almighty God on which it is based." It should also come as no surprise that the Fellowship, also known as the Family, is one of the most well-connected and politically powerful organizations in the US. And then there's the Christian Coalition, Focus on the Family, Moral Majority, and a host of other influential Christian organizations that are also involved in national politics and seeking to push religiously-based political agendas.
@B5C You're right--there are regional differences, and pockets of religious conservatism everywhere. Prayer in public school is illegal, there was an earlier Supreme Court case about that. At my college graduation ceremony, though, at a public university, they did have a pastor say a prayer. That really bugged me.
It's funny, but when it comes to Native American religion, suddenly everyone's against the Establishment clause. Native Americans have lost religious rights time and time again. Every once in a while, Congress does the right thing, and remedies a bad Supreme Court decision in that regard.
There is a loud minority who believe exactly as this preacher says. It doesn't matter what the facts are. They might claim not to want a theocracy, but that's because most of them don't know how to apply basic logic to their thinking.
It starts with the myth of a "Christian nation". What does that mean? That the people who founded our nation were all Christians? Were the Native Americans Christian? Oh, those heathens don't count. How about the people who built our nation, the Chinese and African slaves, were they Christian? Oh, they aren't white, so they don't count. So the upper class white folk who are known as the "founding fathers" were Christian, and that's all that matters? Well, they were not all Christian, but even so what's important is, did they mean to found a Christian nation, or a secular one unlike the British with their Church of England?
But none of this matters, because they know what they mean. They want a nation with laws founded on Biblical Principles. But...but...you say laws that claim their authority from a religious book is the definition of a theocracy. Nonsense, they say. This is the Bible, not just any old religious book. We're talking God's law here, not Mohammed's law or Buddha's law or (shudder) man's law. If people started living by God's law, we'd all be blessed with riches and manna would rain down from heaven and the Gays would be cured and teenage girls would keep their legs shut and...
And because they're not allowed to force other parent's students to pray in school, it becomes "Our children aren't allowed to pray in school!" And the fact this is a lie makes no difference, because those heathen non-Christians don't make a difference in their minds. It's all about the people who counted back in 1776, and the people who count today.
No, it's not all Christians here preaching Dominionism. But it's enough Christians shouting Amen to preachers like this, to show there is a basic flaw in what they teach.
@B5C You're right--there are regional differences, and pockets of religious conservatism everywhere. Prayer in public school is illegal, there was an earlier Supreme Court case about that. At my college graduation ceremony, though, at a public university, they did have a pastor say a prayer. That really bugged me.
It's funny, but when it comes to Native American religion, suddenly everyone's against the Establishment clause. Native Americans have lost religious rights time and time again. Every once in a while, Congress does the right thing, and remedies a bad Supreme Court decision in that regard.
During the 1800s, the US government forced Christianity unto the Indians. They believe Christianity is part of civilizing the natives.
If you are not aware of extremist, right-wing, fundamentalist Christian groups in your country who would have exactly those sorts of thing, then I'm afraid you are missing something. Gays and transgendered individuals have been lynched, there have been bombings, shootings and various other incidents over the years. Have you forgotten the Oklahoma bombing of a few years ago? But more scary than some of the stuff they have already done is the stuff they threaten to do: like, for instance, starting World War III believing that by doing so, they are starting Armageddon.
I was a fundamentalist Christian myself for many years. I know what sort of people these are. They believe in the death penalty for adultery and homosexuality and they want women to stay at home and not go out, their heads covered when they do, just like the Taliban. The simularities are startling.
(And incidentally, they believe Buddhists are Satanists)
The Taliban are not simply identified by the atrocities you mentioned: they didn't start out like that, they started out as a nationalist, Islamic movement within Afghanistan, and we (the West) funded them to help kick out the Soviets. But they were always deeply conservative, misogynistic and violent. It's just that we used to think they were the lesser of several evils, just as some currently regard Christian extremists.
But just because you aren't aware of, and don't understand, the threat, don't start telling me that my moral compass is broken or that I'm morally confused. I happen to believe in freedom of conscience and freedom of religion, which the people we're talking about certainly don't.
You were okay in an earlier post. Now I think you've gone over the edge. First, although you may not have intended to do so, you make it sound as if all fundamentalist Christian groups are involved in lynching gays (I can find almost no references to this when Googled), major bombings, and so forth. And I've yet to see any significant number who are ready to start WWIII. The few evangelicals I know don't say anything about Buddhism being related to Satanism, even when you're talking to them about religion.
Ada, you sound like the far-left counterbalance to the people you are describing. I really think you need to put things in perspective a bit more.
During the 1800s, the US government forced Christianity unto the Indians. They believe Christianity is part of civilizing the natives.
I thought we were past this. Now it's more about not recognizing a religion that doesn't take place inside a building, an organized religion, as opposed to praying out in nature, or in a temporary sweat lodge.
I was a fundamentalist Christian myself for many years. I know what sort of people these are. They believe in the death penalty for adultery and homosexuality and they want women to stay at home and not go out, their heads covered when they do, just like the Taliban. The simularities are startling.
That the people who founded our nation were all Christians? Were the Native Americans Christian? Oh, those heathens don't count. How about the people who built our nation, the Chinese and African slaves, were they Christian? Oh, they aren't white, so they don't count.
Let's not forget that the reason slaves and Native Americans "didn't count" is that they weren't considered human. Slaves, legally, were considered 3/5 human. Native Americans were considered animals. The Georgia Supreme Court referred to the Cherokees as "beasts of the forest" when Georgia was trying to take their land. Those "beasts" had 90% literacy in the Cherokee language. Georgia citizens has 10% literacy in their language. History is interesting.
Some days I look at the progress we humans have made worldwide in at least paying lipservice to universal human rights, and think there is hope that people will one day learn to live better. Then I make the mistake of reading the comments section of some news story about some tragedy, and despair. I really have to stop reading those comment sections.
I make the mistake of reading the comments section of some news story about some tragedy, and despair. I really have to stop reading those comment sections.
If abortion is outlawed in the US, can you sit there and honestly, truly tell me with a straight face that no woman in the US will ever get an abortion again?
That's as absurd as saying, "If murder was illegal, can you sit there and honestly say that no man in the US would ever murder again?!" Of course not. But that fact that well over 50 million babies have been ripped out of their mothers' wombs, necks snapped or sliced to pieces is a tragedy. Not to mention the devastation it has wrought on minorities, where blacks have a 72% illegitimacy rate.
You totally avoided my question. Yes or No: If abortion is outlawed, is it okay to you that women will die because they have to get illegal abortions at back alley clinics by people who may or may not be trained in how to do it? It's a simple question.
If your answer is "yes", then I'm not sure what kind of human being you are. If your answer is "no", then it makes no sense to outlaw abortion.
Don't get me wrong - I'm in no way in favor of abortion. But I'm dead set against you or anyone else (especially anyone who doesn't own a uterus) telling a woman what she can or can't do with her own body. If a fetus is not viable outside the womb, then by definition it's a part of the woman's body. And unless you're prepared to personally see to it that each and every unwanted child born because an abortion wasn't performed is adopted into a healthy, loving home, then it just makes no sense to outlaw abortion. And what about the unwanted children born to mothers who are drug and/or alcohol addicted? Is it kinder to those children to allow them to be born with horrendous birth defects, developmental defects, and very likely a life of institutionalization (at taxpayer expense, btw)? How is that kind and compassionate? I just don't see it.
If abortion is outlawed in the US, can you sit there and honestly, truly tell me with a straight face that no woman in the US will ever get an abortion again?
That's as absurd as saying, "If murder was illegal, can you sit there and honestly say that no man in the US would ever murder again?!" Of course not. But that fact that well over 50 million babies have been ripped out of their mothers' wombs, necks snapped or sliced to pieces is a tragedy. Not to mention the devastation it has wrought on minorities, where blacks have a 72% illegitimacy rate.
You totally avoided my question. Yes or No: If abortion is outlawed, is it okay to you that women will die because they have to get illegal abortions at back alley clinics by people who may or may not be trained in how to do it? It's a simple question.
If your answer is "yes", then I'm not sure what kind of human being you are. If your answer is "no", then it makes no sense to outlaw abortion.
Don't get me wrong - I'm in no way in favor of abortion. But I'm dead set against you or anyone else (especially anyone who doesn't own a uterus) telling a woman what she can or can't do with her own body. If a fetus is not viable outside the womb, then by definition it's a part of the woman's body. And unless you're prepared to personally see to it that each and every unwanted child born because an abortion wasn't performed is adopted into a healthy, loving home, then it just makes no sense to outlaw abortion. And what about the unwanted children born to mothers who are drug and/or alcohol addicted? Is it kinder to those children to allow them to be born with horrendous birth defects, developmental defects, and very likely a life of institutionalization (at taxpayer expense, btw)? How is that kind and compassionate? I just don't see it.
Republicans are big on requiring women to bring pregnancies to term, but they don't want public money going to help insure that those babies grow into healthy, stable adults. They can't have it both ways. If they want to end abortion, they need to provide support services for pregnant women, make sure the women won't get fired from their jobs due to pregnancy, and provide support for the kids. If conservatives don't want to spend the money and make the effort to implement such programs, then maybe abortion is actually in their best interests. Allowing abortion means less demand for public services.
Does anyone know what percentage of Republican women support banning abortion, btw?
One last question: why is it the same people who are pro-life and anti-abortion are also pro-war? If they're pro-life, wouldn't you expect them to be anti-war?
A lot of people who are Republicans say, "Well, a lot Republicans, in fact, most that I know, aren't the religious fundamentalists that want to institute a theocracy and hate gays and black people and stuff. I'm not like that, and nearly all the Republicans I know aren't like that. That's just a loud minority."
whut.
Then why is Santorum leading in so many states? If its just a loud minority... then how'd they get so many votes? How come Gingrich or Cain got so much support? Was the minority just magically becoming the majority?
Am I wrong? Just stupid? Or what? But it doesn't seem like a small minority of Republican voters. It seems like its a lot.
hm...you may have a point. But what are the alternatives to Santorum? (I haven't been following the Republican thing.) Wouldn't they be just as bad? Aren't all the candidates a bit "out there"? So you might say the same thing no matter which of them was ahead. Those upper crust Republicans who are quiet about their religion (if they have one) don't seem to have a candidate.
Yup, it's been said from Toqueville through the ages of US history that we Americans are as crazy as bat shit but all this spoken above is nothing but circus sideshows. When all is said, America will be known for giving the world the blues, rock-n-roll and the open road. I really fucking love this website forum for hearing ideas and points of view from all over the world. But until you can experience the wide open road with that freedom that comes with that particular feeling, you can't really judge our insanity in it's totality.
The reality of American politics is this. 1). Obama is going to be re-elected. The Repubs know this or they wouldn't allow this Republican primary circus to continue. 2). I hope and I'm thinking there will be a brokered Republican Presidential convention in Tampa Bay this year. Now, how great would that be for a display of democracy?
After Obama, then what? Then who? Duck for cover! It'll probably be messy.
I wonder what my country will be like 30 years from now. Will it implode or split up in a manner such as the Soviet Union did? Will it continue in hustler capitalist hunger and greed until it destroys everything? Without the social structure that the Soviet Union had, with all it's faults, I don't have much optimism for the end of the American Empire. There are times in history when we should think historically and the dumbing down of America civilization brings me to despair.
I wonder what my country will be like 30 years from now. Will it implode or split up in a manner such as the Soviet Union did? Will it continue in hustler capitalist hunger and greed until it destroys everything? Without the social structure that the Soviet Union had, with all it's faults, I don't have much optimism for the end of the American Empire. There are times in history when we should think historically and the dumbing down of America civilization brings me to despair.
I am hoping for this. Every great Empire falls. Just a lot of us Americans don't want to see it. Gotta love our number one mentality.
In about 20 years, China will be leading the world as it's new superpower.
I'm worried about the up-and-coming generations, the mess they're inheriting.
It's strange how since the 60's, droves of people keep saying they hate capitalism, the destruction of the environment, and corporate greed. But somehow, all that stuff continues. The problems just get worse. What happened to those convictions, that idealism? A few managed to bring those ideals to the corporate world, I guess, like Ben and Jerry of the ice cream company. Maybe some of those people ended up working for non-profits. Still, change hasn't happened, except for the worse. Where is everyone when you need them?
edit: "China will be the new superpower". Americans are fools to let that happen. But it's happening. I wonder what India will do? Maybe there's hope in India?
I think it would be good for the American prominence to end. It is time. It will happen. It is happening now. The worry I have, and I think the whole world has, is how will America leave the stage? I have great admiration for how Britain bowed out in Africa and Asia (well, let's leave India for another discussion), with all it's mistakes, as opposed to other European colonial powers in regards to structures left behind. But I have great worries about the pride and arrogance that I see in my own country. It saddens me so. We've always felt separate from the world community and even the European community from which we came. The meaning of the word civilization has included hatreds and atrocities throughout the ages but I feel now at this point in history we are at a jumping point in social evolution and civility is sorely lacking, in my opinion.
Here's the thing about predictions of what the nation and world events are going to be like twenty years from now. Whether made by the politicians, from the sociologists, from the preachers, or from the so-called psychics; every prediction has been spectacularly wrong.
Twenty years ago the Soviet Union was in the middle of imploding, and all the predictions by our political talking heads were for an age of shining democracy as capitalism ushered in a new prosperity for everyone. Funny how the typical Russian is still waiting for that prosperity. Oh, and with the cold war finally "won", why world peace was just around the corner. Of course, America had a billion dollar weapon industry busy selling tanks and guns to dictators, and a whole lot of people hated our guts for messing around with their countries during the cold war, but they certainly wouldn't use them on their own people or neighbors, would they? And nobody would be stupid enough to actually attack the remaining superpower.
Chaos theory says tiny events that we cannot anticipate or control have huge consequences. Sociology and psychology says the people in power are too invested in the illusion of control and their own egos to even see change coming, when it hits them between the eyes.
A lot of Buddhism is about getting it pounded into your head that the belief we can control or predict what happens in the world is illusion, dangerous and leads to suffering.
I wonder what my country will be like 30 years from now. Will it implode or split up in a manner such as the Soviet Union did? Will it continue in hustler capitalist hunger and greed until it destroys everything? Without the social structure that the Soviet Union had, with all it's faults, I don't have much optimism for the end of the American Empire. There are times in history when we should think historically and the dumbing down of America civilization brings me to despair.
I am hoping for this. Every great Empire falls. Just a lot of us Americans don't want to see it. Gotta love our number one mentality.
In about 20 years, China will be leading the world as it's new superpower.
You know, this about does it for me at this place. I've chosen to serve in the military for this country, and I belong to a forum where I read this sort of rubbish; people wishing for the end of the country that some friends, aqcquaintances, and family have died or nearly died for.
You live in a bizarre world sir, the depths of which I could never conjure. This has been one of the most decent countries to ever be established, choosing not to conquer at the height of its power, but to check and destroy tyrants around the globe. Korea, Germany, Japan, all proaperous and pacidic nations today. Iraq and Afghanistan were foolishly handled with appeasement to forces of Sharia, but none the less burning out AQ and the Taliban were noble ventures.
You may be right that someday America will lose her prominence on the world stage, and be replaced by what? An amoral China that butchered 70 million of its own people in peacetime and never apologized? You may wish for that world, but if creeping Sharia or anarchy ever take hold where you live, you might wish for the day of benign American hegemony and control of the seas around the world.
The strange views people hold are too legion for me to spend my day arguing, and it wouldn't do much good. So I'm taking my leave for good now from this forum. It's been enjoyable. But I'm married now and have too many obligations in the military to bother reading disparagement of the country that employs me anymore.
I wonder what my country will be like 30 years from now. Will it implode or split up in a manner such as the Soviet Union did? Will it continue in hustler capitalist hunger and greed until it destroys everything? Without the social structure that the Soviet Union had, with all it's faults, I don't have much optimism for the end of the American Empire. There are times in history when we should think historically and the dumbing down of America civilization brings me to despair.
I am hoping for this. Every great Empire falls. Just a lot of us Americans don't want to see it. Gotta love our number one mentality.
In about 20 years, China will be leading the world as it's new superpower.
You know, this about does it for me at this place. I've chosen to serve in the military for this country, and I belong to a forum where I read this sort of rubbish; people wishing for the end of the country that some friends, aqcquaintances, and family have died or nearly died for.
You live in a bizarre world sir, the depths of which I could never conjure. This has been one of the most decent countries to ever be established, choosing not to conquer at the height of its power, but to check and destroy tyrants around the globe. Korea, Germany, Japan, all proaperous and pacidic nations today. Iraq and Afghanistan were foolishly handled with appeasement to forces of Sharia, but none the less burning out AQ and the Taliban were noble ventures.
You may be right that someday America will lose her prominence on the world stage, and be replaced by what? An amoral China that butchered 70 million of its own people in peacetime and never apologized? You may wish for that world, but if creeping Sharia or anarchy ever take hold where you live, you might wish for the day of benign American hegemony and control of the seas around the world.
The strange views people hold are too legion for me to spend my day arguing, and it wouldn't do much good. So I'm taking my leave for good now from this forum. It's been enjoyable. But I'm married now and have too many obligations in the military to bother reading disparagement of the country that employs me anymore.
Peace [Through Strength]
KOB
While one may agree to disagree with KOB's viewpoint, I think it's a case of frequent lack of mindfulness and right speech that drove him away.
I do not recall ever reading a post by KOB about the Dharma...except where is relates to a political position. The posts have always been of a political and nationalistic nature. I would really like to talk to KOB about practice... about the Dharma in his life.. rather than just his views on politics and American exceptionalism. We all have views, but part of Buddhism is the practice of seeing and letting go of view..as view.. and realizing what cannot be contained within view. Maybe I missed KOB discussing that?
The strange views people hold are too legion for me to spend my day arguing, and it wouldn't do much good. So I'm taking my leave for good now from this forum. It's been enjoyable. But I'm married now and have too many obligations in the military to bother reading disparagement of the country that employs me anymore.
Peace [Through Strength]
KOB
Judging from all your posts on this topic, "strange views" probably means "not the same as yours."
But anyways, good knowing you on these forums. Stay safe.
I see no lack of right speech in Gui's and B5C's posts quoted above. I thought Gui's post showed a very sincere and heartfelt concern for the direction in which the US is going. B5C isn't alone in worrying about China gaining ascendency. That topic is standard fare in foreign policy circles. And the idea of the American empire falling has been around for decades. He's right--every empire does fall. The question is, will the US give up its dominance gracefully, or will it go down in flames?
This thread has actually been relatively mild, compared to some of our political discussions.
I had to learn quick that there are many here spun very tight on political issues... once you accept that, then your no longer surprised by it. I have learned much here that I would have missed if I had let the political banter bother me.
If you don't come back, let me say that I appreciate you, your views and convictions. Best of luck to you in your career.
@Knightofbuddha , I had to learn quick that there are many here spun very tight on political issues... once you accept that, then your no longer surprised by it. I have learned much here that I would have missed if I had let the political banter bother me.
A lot of people who are Republicans say, "Well, a lot Republicans, in fact, most that I know, aren't the religious fundamentalists that want to institute a theocracy and hate gays and black people and stuff. I'm not like that, and nearly all the Republicans I know aren't like that. That's just a loud minority."
whut.
Then why is Santorum leading in so many states? If its just a loud minority... then how'd they get so many votes? How come Gingrich or Cain got so much support? Was the minority just magically becoming the majority?
Am I wrong? Just stupid? Or what? But it doesn't seem like a small minority of Republican voters. It seems like its a lot.
I have actually never met a republican religious person. The republicans around here aren't concerned about religion, they are concerned about making money. That is why Romney got a whopping 46% and Santorum got a measly 13%. Even Gingrich blew away Santorum with 30%. In some places, like Florida, religious republicans are the small minority.
As of now nationally, Romney has won 16 states while Santorum has won 10. Delegate count projections for Romney is 497, Delegate count for Santorum is 183. In other words, Romney is blowing Santorum away.
I have actually never met a republican religious person. The republicans around here aren't concerned about religion, they are concerned about making money.
Agreed. Most Republicans would look askance at Santorum and his preacher friend, to put it politely. They may be thinking, "Who let all this riff-raff into our Grand Old Party?" It only seems like the fundamentalists and revivalists are among the majority in the Party because they're the loudest, and they were given a platform and empowered by G.W.Bush, who toadied to them in recognition of their potential as a voting bloc.
You live in a bizarre world sir, the depths of which I could never conjure. This has been one of the most decent countries to ever be established, choosing not to conquer at the height of its power, but to check and destroy tyrants around the globe.
Sure, when it suits our purpose. But the US also has a history of propping up dictators whenever it suits our needs (e.g., the Shah in Iran, Marcos in the Philippines, Pinochet in Chile, Mubarak in Egypt, etc.), as well as helping to overthrow democratically elected governments (e.g., Chile, Guatemala, Iran, etc.).
Yeah, the US is a pretty great place compared to some other nations, and there are many things to be proud of. But that doesn't mean we, as citizens, have be nationalistic sycophants and turn a blind eye to our faults, or that non-citizens have nothing to be critical of, from slavery and the genocide of Native Americans to our imperialistic policies and unethical human experiments.
I see no lack of right speech in Gui's and B5C's posts quoted above. I thought Gui's post showed a very sincere and heartfelt concern for the direction in which the US is going. B5C isn't alone in worrying about China gaining ascendency. That topic is standard fare in foreign policy circles. And the idea of the American empire falling has been around for decades. He's right--every empire does fall. The question is, will the US give up its dominance gracefully, or will it go down in flames?
This thread has actually been relatively mild, compared to some of our political discussions.
Yeah, the US is a pretty great place compared to some other nations, and there are many things to be proud of. But that doesn't mean we, as citizens, have be nationalistic sycophants and turn a blind eye to our faults, or that non-citizens have nothing to be critical of, from slavery and the genocide of Native Americans to our imperialistic policies and unethical human experiments.
Jason, I consider that a fair and balanced statement.
You might, however, want to look into how various Indian tribes attacked and murdered other Indian tribes before you paint them as total innocents. There were a few alliances, but there were also many wars within the Indian culture.
I see no lack of right speech in Gui's and B5C's posts quoted above. I thought Gui's post showed a very sincere and heartfelt concern for the direction in which the US is going. B5C isn't alone in worrying about China gaining ascendency. That topic is standard fare in foreign policy circles. And the idea of the American empire falling has been around for decades. He's right--every empire does fall. The question is, will the US give up its dominance gracefully, or will it go down in flames?
This thread has actually been relatively mild, compared to some of our political discussions.
Dakini, I did not mention Gui or B5C in any way.
You quoted them, so I thought your comment about lack of mindfulness and right speech was inspired by the passages you quoted.
Does the fact that some tribes had a warrior culture justify what the US did to them? I'm not sure I get the drift of you post in that regard. It's not as if European tribes never waged war against each other.
pssst, @Jason--Mountains might freak if he saw that you attributed KoB's statements to him. And thanks for posting what many of the rest of us were thinking.
Comments
I'm not sure what you mean by "woolly". I guess that must be a British term. Does it mean "fuzzy" or "indistinct"? If so, i can understand that, but I think that may be a dose of reality. Personally, I do believe in God, but I have long thought that man does not understand what God really is or how "he" works. But clearly, the idea that you can pray to God and have him answer your prayers...well, I just don't think so, because we all know that rarely (if ever) happens. For the most part, I think life is up to us.
I really that definition that the U.S. is "culturally Christian", not "religiously Christian". I had never thought of that, but I think it's a significant distinction.
As to your National Secular Society...good intention. Of course, such organizations may just tent to goad the evangelicals to be even more evangelical toward government interference. Time will tell.
I think that one of the biggest cop-outs in the world is that when people pray to God for something really big (like that a relative or friend is cured of cancer), and...as is typical...it doesn't happen, then they say, "Well, God works in mysterious ways." Of course, every religion has those kinds of cop-outs...like imponderables.
I know those evangelical groups are out there. Yet, even when I was still working, as a principal, and meeting lots of people every day, I've only met a couple of them. And now, in retirement, I live in Colorado Springs, which is well known as a center of Evangelism, and I don't personally know of a single evangelical here.
I'm kind of coming to the conclusion that a few people in the evangelical movement are VERY loud, but are far more strident than the typical evangelical.
I was a fundamentalist Christian myself for many years. I know what sort of people these are. They believe in the death penalty for adultery and homosexuality and they want women to stay at home and not go out, their heads covered when they do, just like the Taliban. The simularities are startling.
(And incidentally, they believe Buddhists are Satanists)
The Taliban are not simply identified by the atrocities you mentioned: they didn't start out like that, they started out as a nationalist, Islamic movement within Afghanistan, and we (the West) funded them to help kick out the Soviets. But they were always deeply conservative, misogynistic and violent. It's just that we used to think they were the lesser of several evils, just as some currently regard Christian extremists.
But just because you aren't aware of, and don't understand, the threat, don't start telling me that my moral compass is broken or that I'm morally confused. I happen to believe in freedom of conscience and freedom of religion, which the people we're talking about certainly don't.
The US doesn't have little girls' schools, it's a moot point. And btw, Tibetans used to cut of women's noses. It can happen anywhere, even in Buddhism.
States in the Bible Belt has openly passing laws requiring schools to teach creationism as an alternative theory to Evolution:
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/03/20/tennessee-senate-passes-anti-evolution-bill/
Damon Fowler was forced out of school, town, and state for opposing prayer in public School:
http://www.atheistrev.com/2011/05/damon-fowler-is-atheist-hero.html
Heck in even in New England (Outside the Bible Belt) a student had death threats and called an "evil little thing" by her own state Representative for suing a the school district because her school had a Christian prayer up:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahlquist_v._Cranston
No matter how liberal you are with the Establishment clause. Even trying to remove even deism in government. Theists will start attacking.
Christianity has dominated modern American politics for decades, as well. For example, the bill that legally establishes the National Day of Prayer was a blatant attack on atheists and political free speech, as evidenced by Sen. Absalom Robertson's (Pat Robertson's father) comment when introducing the bill in the Senate in 1952 as a measure against "the corrosive forces of communism which seek simultaneously to destroy our democratic way of life and the faith in an Almighty God on which it is based." It should also come as no surprise that the Fellowship, also known as the Family, is one of the most well-connected and politically powerful organizations in the US. And then there's the Christian Coalition, Focus on the Family, Moral Majority, and a host of other influential Christian organizations that are also involved in national politics and seeking to push religiously-based political agendas.
It's funny, but when it comes to Native American religion, suddenly everyone's against the Establishment clause. Native Americans have lost religious rights time and time again. Every once in a while, Congress does the right thing, and remedies a bad Supreme Court decision in that regard.
It starts with the myth of a "Christian nation". What does that mean? That the people who founded our nation were all Christians? Were the Native Americans Christian? Oh, those heathens don't count. How about the people who built our nation, the Chinese and African slaves, were they Christian? Oh, they aren't white, so they don't count. So the upper class white folk who are known as the "founding fathers" were Christian, and that's all that matters? Well, they were not all Christian, but even so what's important is, did they mean to found a Christian nation, or a secular one unlike the British with their Church of England?
But none of this matters, because they know what they mean. They want a nation with laws founded on Biblical Principles. But...but...you say laws that claim their authority from a religious book is the definition of a theocracy. Nonsense, they say. This is the Bible, not just any old religious book. We're talking God's law here, not Mohammed's law or Buddha's law or (shudder) man's law. If people started living by God's law, we'd all be blessed with riches and manna would rain down from heaven and the Gays would be cured and teenage girls would keep their legs shut and...
And because they're not allowed to force other parent's students to pray in school, it becomes "Our children aren't allowed to pray in school!" And the fact this is a lie makes no difference, because those heathen non-Christians don't make a difference in their minds. It's all about the people who counted back in 1776, and the people who count today.
No, it's not all Christians here preaching Dominionism. But it's enough Christians shouting Amen to preachers like this, to show there is a basic flaw in what they teach.
Ada, you sound like the far-left counterbalance to the people you are describing. I really think you need to put things in perspective a bit more.
If your answer is "yes", then I'm not sure what kind of human being you are. If your answer is "no", then it makes no sense to outlaw abortion.
Don't get me wrong - I'm in no way in favor of abortion. But I'm dead set against you or anyone else (especially anyone who doesn't own a uterus) telling a woman what she can or can't do with her own body. If a fetus is not viable outside the womb, then by definition it's a part of the woman's body. And unless you're prepared to personally see to it that each and every unwanted child born because an abortion wasn't performed is adopted into a healthy, loving home, then it just makes no sense to outlaw abortion. And what about the unwanted children born to mothers who are drug and/or alcohol addicted? Is it kinder to those children to allow them to be born with horrendous birth defects, developmental defects, and very likely a life of institutionalization (at taxpayer expense, btw)? How is that kind and compassionate? I just don't see it.
Does anyone know what percentage of Republican women support banning abortion, btw?
One last question: why is it the same people who are pro-life and anti-abortion are also pro-war? If they're pro-life, wouldn't you expect them to be anti-war?
What? me? nothing...nothing at all... :nyah:
A lot of people who are Republicans say, "Well, a lot Republicans, in fact, most that I know, aren't the religious fundamentalists that want to institute a theocracy and hate gays and black people and stuff. I'm not like that, and nearly all the Republicans I know aren't like that. That's just a loud minority."
whut.
Then why is Santorum leading in so many states? If its just a loud minority... then how'd they get so many votes? How come Gingrich or Cain got so much support? Was the minority just magically becoming the majority?
Am I wrong? Just stupid? Or what? But it doesn't seem like a small minority of Republican voters. It seems like its a lot.
In about 20 years, China will be leading the world as it's new superpower.
It's strange how since the 60's, droves of people keep saying they hate capitalism, the destruction of the environment, and corporate greed. But somehow, all that stuff continues. The problems just get worse. What happened to those convictions, that idealism? A few managed to bring those ideals to the corporate world, I guess, like Ben and Jerry of the ice cream company. Maybe some of those people ended up working for non-profits. Still, change hasn't happened, except for the worse. Where is everyone when you need them?
edit: "China will be the new superpower". Americans are fools to let that happen. But it's happening. I wonder what India will do? Maybe there's hope in India?
Twenty years ago the Soviet Union was in the middle of imploding, and all the predictions by our political talking heads were for an age of shining democracy as capitalism ushered in a new prosperity for everyone. Funny how the typical Russian is still waiting for that prosperity. Oh, and with the cold war finally "won", why world peace was just around the corner. Of course, America had a billion dollar weapon industry busy selling tanks and guns to dictators, and a whole lot of people hated our guts for messing around with their countries during the cold war, but they certainly wouldn't use them on their own people or neighbors, would they? And nobody would be stupid enough to actually attack the remaining superpower.
Chaos theory says tiny events that we cannot anticipate or control have huge consequences. Sociology and psychology says the people in power are too invested in the illusion of control and their own egos to even see change coming, when it hits them between the eyes.
A lot of Buddhism is about getting it pounded into your head that the belief we can control or predict what happens in the world is illusion, dangerous and leads to suffering.
You live in a bizarre world sir, the depths of which I could never conjure. This has been one of the most decent countries to ever be established, choosing not to conquer at the height of its power, but to check and destroy tyrants around the globe. Korea, Germany, Japan, all proaperous and pacidic nations today. Iraq and Afghanistan were foolishly handled with appeasement to forces of Sharia, but none the less burning out AQ and the Taliban were noble ventures.
You may be right that someday America will lose her prominence on the world stage, and be replaced by what? An amoral China that butchered 70 million of its own people in peacetime and never apologized? You may wish for that world, but if creeping Sharia or anarchy ever take hold where you live, you might wish for the day of benign American hegemony and control of the seas around the world.
The strange views people hold are too legion for me to spend my day arguing, and it wouldn't do much good. So I'm taking my leave for good now from this forum. It's been enjoyable. But I'm married now and have too many obligations in the military to bother reading disparagement of the country that employs me anymore.
Peace [Through Strength]
KOB
But anyways, good knowing you on these forums. Stay safe.
This thread has actually been relatively mild, compared to some of our political discussions.
I had to learn quick that there are many here spun very tight on political issues... once you accept that, then your no longer surprised by it. I have learned much here that I would have missed if I had let the political banter bother me.
If you don't come back, let me say that I appreciate you, your views and convictions. Best of luck to you in your career.
As of now nationally, Romney has won 16 states while Santorum has won 10. Delegate count projections for Romney is 497, Delegate count for Santorum is 183. In other words, Romney is blowing Santorum away.
Yeah, the US is a pretty great place compared to some other nations, and there are many things to be proud of. But that doesn't mean we, as citizens, have be nationalistic sycophants and turn a blind eye to our faults, or that non-citizens have nothing to be critical of, from slavery and the genocide of Native Americans to our imperialistic policies and unethical human experiments.
You might, however, want to look into how various Indian tribes attacked and murdered other Indian tribes before you paint them as total innocents. There were a few alliances, but there were also many wars within the Indian culture.
Does the fact that some tribes had a warrior culture justify what the US did to them? I'm not sure I get the drift of you post in that regard. It's not as if European tribes never waged war against each other.
pssst, @Jason--Mountains might freak if he saw that you attributed KoB's statements to him.