I am trying to understand how Buddhism views Mental Health...Schizophrenia?

LeonBasin

Is there a remedy for Schizophrenia by using Buddhism? I am trying to understand how Buddhism views Schizophrenia?

Bekenze

Bekenze doesn't think Buddhism can help. We certainly don't.

LeonBasin

Bekenze doesn't think Buddhism can help. We certainly don't.

I see. I suppose it's out of reach for all religions? I am studying Clinical Psychology right now.

Bekenze

Bekenze doesn't think Buddhism can help. We certainly don't.

I see. I suppose it's out of reach for all religions? I am studying Clinical Psychology right now.

*cough* That was supposed to be a joke... :-/

vinlyn

In my view, at least based on my visits to, and living Thailand, the topic is more a cultural one than any widely based Buddhist attitude toward it.

LeonBasin

Bekenze doesn't think Buddhism can help. We certainly don't.

I see. I suppose it's out of reach for all religions? I am studying Clinical Psychology right now.

*cough* That was supposed to be a joke... :-/

Sorry, I am in deep thought. Was doing some self-realization. Wonder if I have something like that..

LeonBasin

In my view, at least based on my visits to, and living Thailand, the topic is more a cultural one than any widely based Buddhist attitude toward it.

Care to add a little bit more? You mean depending on the culture, people feel different about it? But does that mean that they are ignoring it?

Jeffrey

Well one thing is that schizophrenia is heterogenous I believe. Each patient is specific to their life-mind-body.

No quick fixes and one size fits all.

The dharma is not about fixing abnormalities thus it is no problem to be schizophrenic and practice the dharma. But it can't fix schizophrenia as far as I know.

I am schizophrenic and I pretty much take refuge. I rely on awareness rather than things and people. Wherever I can go into it. And I can do things to care for muse. Ok now. Life still tastes. Whatever it is even if it tastes like being injected with a syringe of bleach by your psychic neighbors. :om:

As federica says #3458

Goal of 10000 hours meditated just for the kicks.

Wacky vajra world turning against you. Laugh. Cry. Dissolve into oblivion..

Trick wacky birthday cake candles keep relightening.

Opium sea.

Montana.

Desert.

Power trip.

vinlyn

In my view, at least based on my visits to, and living Thailand, the topic is more a cultural one than any widely based Buddhist attitude toward it.

Care to add a little bit more? You mean depending on the culture, people feel different about it? But does that mean that they are ignoring it?

Thailand is not a very enlightened (in the cultural sense) place. People with physical handicaps are often beggars in the street, where in the West they would have undergone rehabilitation and lead more normal lives. I never saw a wheelchair in Thailand until, perhaps 2000. There are special bricks in the sidewalks for the blind, but those paths often just end or go right up to a wall! Smack!

I think it is very much similar with mental disorders.

I did begin to see signs of improvements for those afflicted with physical problems, so I imagine there are similar improvements beginning in terms of mental issues.

But you have to remember that there is a widespread belief in Thailand that physical and mental issues are the direct result of punishment via karma.

Jeffrey

@vinylyn, I wonder if there is less incidence of schizophrenia? For example it is not skyscrapers and all that. I am a peaceful person and I can do work if somebody shows me how to do it. I don't know about without medicine. Anyhow I can stamp letters all day, but if there is any non-routine or ambiguity I get paranoid. But someone really paternal or maternal working with me with positive reinforcement and I am very compliant. I just need things super simple.

shays860

If you find any treatment for schizophrenia in any Buddhist context I think it will be in a modern, probably self help, book.

vinlyn

@vinylyn, I wonder if there is less incidence of schizophrenia? For example it is not skyscrapers and all that. I am a peaceful person and I can do work if somebody shows me how to do it. I don't know about without medicine. Anyhow I can stamp letters all day, but if there is any non-routine or ambiguity I get paranoid. But someone really paternal or maternal working with me with positive reinforcement and I am very compliant. I just need things super simple.

Numbers I can't speak to, but I've seen some pretty crazy street people in Thailand.

federica

Is there a remedy for Schizophrenia by using Buddhism? I am trying to understand how Buddhism views Schizophrenia?

There is a remedy for EVERYTHING in Buddhism - but Buddhism isn't a remedy for anything.

Even asprin does nothing if you don't actually take it.

andyrobyn

The term

Is there a remedy for Schizophrenia by using Buddhism? I am trying to understand how Buddhism views Schizophrenia?

There is a remedy for EVERYTHING in Buddhism - but Buddhism isn't a remedy for anything.

Even asprin does nothing if you don't actually take it.

This captures it well for me.

The concept schizophrenia is medical model and does not tell us much about an individual, really.

caz

Is there a remedy for Schizophrenia by using Buddhism? I am trying to understand how Buddhism views Schizophrenia?

Mindfulness, We all hear voices in our mind if you can recognize them as delusions you can gain control over your actions we have a friend who suffers with this as well considering all the medication they dump into your system for it non of it seems to work but just suppress the problem if the money was available I think some may benefit more from counselling. IMO

andyrobyn

Hi caznamyaw ( long time no see ??? ) ... Not sure what you mean by counselling - in my experience what is described as schizophrenia is not something which is to be worked through, such as grief or adjusting to change.

caz

Hi caznamyaw ( long time no see ??? ) ... Not sure what you mean by counselling - in my experience what is described as schizophrenia is not something which is to be worked through, such as grief or adjusting to change.

Its an In mind problem.

Schizophrenia (/ˌskɪtsɵˈfrɛniə/ or /ˌskɪtsɵˈfriːniə/) is a mental disorder characterized by a breakdown of thought processes and by poor emotional responsiveness.It most commonly manifests itself as auditory hallucinations, paranoid or bizarre delusions, or disorganized speech and thinking, and it is accompanied by significant social or occupational dysfunction. The onset of symptoms typically occurs in young adulthood, with a global lifetime prevalence of about 0.3–0.7%. Diagnosis is based on observed behavior and the patient's reported experiences.

The problem starts when people Self identify with mind phenomena.

Nice to see you to andyrobyn :)

andyrobyn

I am not sure about your conclusion that " the problem " ( presumbly, you mean of the difficult symptoms which the medical model describes as Schizophrenia ? ) starts when
" people identify with mind phenomona ".

Jeffrey

caz,

not always true. i hear voices outside of myself which is what most schizophrenics experience. That's the definition of an auditory hallucination is that it is believed to come from something outside of 'me'.

You could say non-duality could resolve that but that's like saying the space shuttle can reach the moon but you only have a canoe.

caz

caz,

not always true. i hear voices outside of myself which is what most schizophrenics experience. That's the definition of an auditory hallucination is that it is believed to come from something outside of 'me'.

You could say non-duality could resolve that but that's like saying the space shuttle can reach the moon but you only have a canoe.

Someone who watches the mind would see it is a simple illusion. The difference is the grasping at the object. If you grasp strongly it will cause suffering and various actions that promote suffering where as not grasping at them does the opposite and makes things more bearable.

When people experience mind phenomena they grasp at it as self and accordingly perform actions out of ignorance which lead to suffering, When people experience mind phenomena which they perceive to be outside of their boundaries of their selves they do the same thing and engage in actions out of Ignorance and create the causes for suffering. So all manner of phenomena could manifest but one who is skilled in understanding the mind and wise in knowing the nature of phenomena will not experience such suffering.

Tell me @Jefferey does practicing mindfulness help or hinder your condition ?

andyrobyn

My observation from 15 years of working in psychiatry and mental health is that conditions like
" schizophrenia" makes practicing mindfulness as well as many other activities very difficult.

Jeffrey

caz, there isn't a consensus of what mindfulness means. In my sangha we use the word awareness. Which means there's no option of non-mindfuless.

With the voices it's hard to see through. It's sort of like a baseball flies and hits you in the forehead and knocks you out. So granted that you experienced that you conclude that the baseball is real. This is a kitchen sink thing and not to do with philosophy or the heart sutra; when a baseball hits you in the head it's not philosophy.

Zero

Schizophrenia is like an umbrella definition for a range of 'outside of normal spectra' behaviours and responses - its tough pinning it down as a set of symptoms or manifestations - it is not understood...

The thing with 'normal' reality is that it is graded for everyday functional existence - if you wake up, wash, go to a job, hold down relationships, not break the law, spend money and not say too many weird things too often.... then youre sane and all is well...

It only takes a little deviation from that for people to raise eyebrows and recommend therapy - the reality is the same, the response is the same, its just the fiction employed is more or less acceptable in the social context.

Can Buddhism remedy schizophrenia per se? On a broad population analysis likely not - that said, nothing we are aware of currently seems to work across the board - everyone is different and the functions of the brain are not understood sufficiently for a universal remedy (if that is possible even)...

It may be that the Schizophrenics are closer to seeing reality than so called 'normal' people...

Example - I'm not diagnosed as Schizophrenic and I dont consider that I have an issue in that regard - that said, my behaviour is outside of the normal spectra... I have dreams that come true... I'm not talking about wishywashy I saw a rabbit so youre going to be lucky type dreams - I'm talking about 'I was in your house and I know where you keep your stash and I've never seen your house before' type dreams... ones where I am told where to be and what will be said... I'll always know if there is a death close - sometimes I'll just say what you've been trying to hide inside and provide you with the solution then I'll spend weeks learning from it myself...

It is only in this very short portion of our evolution where we have decided that the 'self' rules all and anything outside of our understanding is incorrect - ever met a shaman...? how schizophrenic are they in the main... but equally how sane compared to the suited fakers I meet everyday... trying their best to convince themselves that everything firm is all there is!

Ok... rant over... :)

caz

My observation from 15 years of working in psychiatry and mental health is that conditions like
" schizophrenia" makes practicing mindfulness as well as many other activities very difficult.

Difficult not impossible, Practice make progress.

caz

caz, there isn't a consensus of what mindfulness means. In my sangha we use the word awareness. Which means there's no option of non-mindfuless.

With the voices it's hard to see through. It's sort of like a baseball flies and hits you in the forehead and knocks you out. So granted that you experienced that you conclude that the baseball is real. This is a kitchen sink thing and not to do with philosophy or the heart sutra; when a baseball hits you in the head it's not philosophy.

Mindfulness=A mental factor of observance/awareness.

Hard but not impossible. Its only Philosophy if you cant see the emptiness of the baseball :)

Victorious

Bekenze doesn't think Buddhism can help. We certainly don't.

I see. I suppose it's out of reach for all religions? I am studying Clinical Psychology right now.

*cough* That was supposed to be a joke... :-/

poe poe poe pow. Tadaaam.


:D

/Victor

federica

@caznamyaw,

Unless you are speaking from a standpoint of somebody medically qualified to make comments about this mental condition, and you have professional experience, i actually think you need to abstain from making comments about a condition of which you know nothing.
I don't believe you have any medical training or foundation into psychiatry, and as such, your comments, in my opinion, are based on an uneducated and ignorant premise.
If you really believe a serious psychiatric condition can be addressed by the patient themselves in ways you describe, then you are very, very mistaken.

caz

Yes you are right which is why in my first post I put IMO. Its opinion which is why there is a thread to discuss it. If it is not a suitable topic for discussion then remove it :)

patbb

Here is the amazing professor Robert Sapolsky's talk on the subject of Schizophrenia if some of you are interested in the neuro biological understanding of it:

quite interesting and informative talk!

federica

Yes you are right which is why in my first post I put IMO. Its opinion which is why there is a thread to discuss it. If it is not a suitable topic for discussion then remove it :)

you are entitled to your opinion, but you must try to understand that - to put things very bluntly - a person with diagnosed medical mental issues, may not be in a capable state of mind to discern what might you suggest, or be useful or helpful.
therefore, no matter what your opinion, insistence of your point, in an effort to counter-argue the more experienced comments of others - is not helpful discussion.

caz

Yes you are right which is why in my first post I put IMO. Its opinion which is why there is a thread to discuss it. If it is not a suitable topic for discussion then remove it :)

you are entitled to your opinion, but you must try to understand that - to put things very bluntly - a person with diagnosed medical mental issues, may not be in a capable state of mind to discern what might you suggest, or be useful or helpful.
therefore, no matter what your opinion, insistence of your point, in an effort to counter-argue the more experienced comments of others - is not helpful discussion.

If it cant be discussed for fear of someone going of kilter then perhaps its time for a new injunction to not discuss them at all ? :)

federica

That's not necessary.

Just stop being so insistent that what you propose is always feasible, when people tell you that due to disgnosed medical conditions, it's not.

I'm not in the habit of censoring or "issuing in junctions" and I'm certainly not going to prevent others from discussing the matter, simply because one person can't seem to understand when enough is enough.

It is part of my job, however, to steer things in a constructive manner and to guide members when appropriate, in what is appropriate. Or not.

;)

That's as far as I'm prepared to discuss the matter.

LeonBasin

In my view, at least based on my visits to, and living Thailand, the topic is more a cultural one than any widely based Buddhist attitude toward it.

Care to add a little bit more? You mean depending on the culture, people feel different about it? But does that mean that they are ignoring it?

Thailand is not a very enlightened (in the cultural sense) place. People with physical handicaps are often beggars in the street, where in the West they would have undergone rehabilitation and lead more normal lives. I never saw a wheelchair in Thailand until, perhaps 2000. There are special bricks in the sidewalks for the blind, but those paths often just end or go right up to a wall! Smack!

I think it is very much similar with mental disorders.

I did begin to see signs of improvements for those afflicted with physical problems, so I imagine there are similar improvements beginning in terms of mental issues.

But you have to remember that there is a widespread belief in Thailand that physical and mental issues are the direct result of punishment via karma.

Right, they strongly believe in Karma. Well, most of the East does.

LeonBasin

If you find any treatment for schizophrenia in any Buddhist context I think it will be in a modern, probably self help, book.

Interesting.

LeonBasin

Is there a remedy for Schizophrenia by using Buddhism? I am trying to understand how Buddhism views Schizophrenia?

There is a remedy for EVERYTHING in Buddhism - but Buddhism isn't a remedy for anything.

Even asprin does nothing if you don't actually take it.

:)

LeonBasin

Is there a remedy for Schizophrenia by using Buddhism? I am trying to understand how Buddhism views Schizophrenia?

Mindfulness, We all hear voices in our mind if you can recognize them as delusions you can gain control over your actions we have a friend who suffers with this as well considering all the medication they dump into your system for it non of it seems to work but just suppress the problem if the money was available I think some may benefit more from counselling. IMO

You are right! I am somewhat against taking pills, thus, I was wondering if there were remedies that Eastern thought could over. One of the main things I could think of is Mindfulness, but to say that to a Schizophrenia individual is bogus. They might not have a clue if the voices they are hearing are theirs, or if someone else's. I would like to hear more from @Jeffrey! Would you please let us know if you were diagnosed or if you feel that way? From my research, I feel that I might have similarities to being Schizophrenia. I believe I used to have ADHD and then I am thinking I have bipolar, but that might be the problem with the west, we are quick to assign labels to ourselves, instead of working hard and helping ourselves by simply being mindful and many other simple ways of approaching something like Mental Illness.

LeonBasin

caz,

not always true. i hear voices outside of myself which is what most schizophrenics experience. That's the definition of an auditory hallucination is that it is believed to come from something outside of 'me'.

You could say non-duality could resolve that but that's like saying the space shuttle can reach the moon but you only have a canoe.

Someone who watches the mind would see it is a simple illusion. The difference is the grasping at the object. If you grasp strongly it will cause suffering and various actions that promote suffering where as not grasping at them does the opposite and makes things more bearable.

When people experience mind phenomena they grasp at it as self and accordingly perform actions out of ignorance which lead to suffering, When people experience mind phenomena which they perceive to be outside of their boundaries of their selves they do the same thing and engage in actions out of Ignorance and create the causes for suffering. So all manner of phenomena could manifest but one who is skilled in understanding the mind and wise in knowing the nature of phenomena will not experience such suffering.

Tell me @Jefferey does practicing mindfulness help or hinder your condition ?

This was nice!

vinlyn

Is there a remedy for Schizophrenia by using Buddhism? I am trying to understand how Buddhism views Schizophrenia?

Mindfulness, We all hear voices in our mind if you can recognize them as delusions you can gain control over your actions we have a friend who suffers with this as well considering all the medication they dump into your system for it non of it seems to work but just suppress the problem if the money was available I think some may benefit more from counselling. IMO

If you're schizophrenic, that's a pretty big IF.

caz

Is there a remedy for Schizophrenia by using Buddhism? I am trying to understand how Buddhism views Schizophrenia?

Mindfulness, We all hear voices in our mind if you can recognize them as delusions you can gain control over your actions we have a friend who suffers with this as well considering all the medication they dump into your system for it non of it seems to work but just suppress the problem if the money was available I think some may benefit more from counselling. IMO

If you're schizophrenic, that's a pretty big IF.

Schizophrenics are not beyond help, Why we had one monk who has the condition and from training in the path he successfully reduced his suffering. The medication is always a helpful tool much like aspirin for pain but the root problem is another issue.

vinlyn

Is there a remedy for Schizophrenia by using Buddhism? I am trying to understand how Buddhism views Schizophrenia?

Mindfulness, We all hear voices in our mind if you can recognize them as delusions you can gain control over your actions we have a friend who suffers with this as well considering all the medication they dump into your system for it non of it seems to work but just suppress the problem if the money was available I think some may benefit more from counselling. IMO

If you're schizophrenic, that's a pretty big IF.

Schizophrenics are not beyond help, Why we had one monk who has the condition and from training in the path he successfully reduced his suffering. The medication is always a helpful tool much like aspirin for pain but the root problem is another issue.

I'm not saying they're beyond help at all. But to expect a schizophrenic to realize when delusions are delusions is, as I said, a pretty big IF.