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Misinterpretation of reincarnation?
This is just a hypothetical situation I made up. It's to illustrate how some Westerners may have a misunderstanding of reincarnation (Hindu version). However, most like to thnk Buddhism have discuss reincarnation, but as far as I know, it talks about rebirth. Tell me what you think of this story below.
There are these two hardcore family who strongly believe in reincarnation - literally. If reincarnation have found scientific proof, more lawyers will need to understand not only criminal law, property law, business law, but the law of reincarnation in human society.
Let's called the families the "Soun" and "Thy" family. The Souns and Thy were once neighbor, albiet had a lot of conflicts. The Souns consist of a couple (father/mother) and a young boy (age 9). The Thy's are just recently married couple - no kids. The Soun always thought they were higher-class than their neighbor - the Thy's. The Soun would sometimes talk behind their back. Both would always talk behind each other back - the Thy's even threat to take away the Soun's 9 yr. old misbehaving and rude boy to a child support service.
A few years later, Soun's only son died in an accident by falling down a sharp object which landed near his heart. The Soun's sought psychics who told them their son is not dead spiritually but alive here on this world. Confused, the Soun must've thought he must've been alive in heaven or reincarnated somewhere. During this time, the Thy's family was pregnant.
Years went by and Soun and Thy are still bad neighbor. Now, the Thy had a son. As the Thy's son was playing outside without his shirt, the Souns' notice a SIGNIFICANT birthmark on the Thy's son - birthmark that strikely resemble the area in which the knife that killed the Soun's son. Additionally, the young Thy's boy misbehaving personality seemingly resemble that of the Soun's deceased son. Both the Soun's and Thy's decided to discuss this issue about the possiblity of reincarnation.
Autospy examination has reveal mathematical precision in the area Soun's son was penetrated and the birthmark of Thy's young son on the chest. Yet, the mortician do not see how it has anything to do with reincarnation. Both Thy's and Soun's decided to investigate this further with New-Agers, monks, spiritualists for this matter - all of whom indicate reincarnation as a possiblity.
The Soun's now believe that their deceased son must've reincarnated to the Thy's young son at the moment they became pregnant. At this point, these two families are in legal battle and seeking justice authority to determine who's the true ownership of the young boy. They have try to seek a lawyer who's familar with the law of reincarnation, yet have not found such lawyers who believe such a thing seriously to handle in court cases. The Soun's even attempted to kidnap the Thy's son.
The Soun firmly believe their son is reincarnated to the Thy's and want their beloved son back. The Thy's argue that because the wife gave birth, it should belong to them (Thy's). Some people have even talk about Karma being the reason why they are in this situation.
The questions: Does the young boy belong to the Soun's spiritually? Does the young boy belong to the Thy's genetically? Should they both raise the son? Or, is this a worst care of the interpretation of reincarnation?
There are these two hardcore family who strongly believe in reincarnation - literally. If reincarnation have found scientific proof, more lawyers will need to understand not only criminal law, property law, business law, but the law of reincarnation in human society.
Let's called the families the "Soun" and "Thy" family. The Souns and Thy were once neighbor, albiet had a lot of conflicts. The Souns consist of a couple (father/mother) and a young boy (age 9). The Thy's are just recently married couple - no kids. The Soun always thought they were higher-class than their neighbor - the Thy's. The Soun would sometimes talk behind their back. Both would always talk behind each other back - the Thy's even threat to take away the Soun's 9 yr. old misbehaving and rude boy to a child support service.
A few years later, Soun's only son died in an accident by falling down a sharp object which landed near his heart. The Soun's sought psychics who told them their son is not dead spiritually but alive here on this world. Confused, the Soun must've thought he must've been alive in heaven or reincarnated somewhere. During this time, the Thy's family was pregnant.
Years went by and Soun and Thy are still bad neighbor. Now, the Thy had a son. As the Thy's son was playing outside without his shirt, the Souns' notice a SIGNIFICANT birthmark on the Thy's son - birthmark that strikely resemble the area in which the knife that killed the Soun's son. Additionally, the young Thy's boy misbehaving personality seemingly resemble that of the Soun's deceased son. Both the Soun's and Thy's decided to discuss this issue about the possiblity of reincarnation.
Autospy examination has reveal mathematical precision in the area Soun's son was penetrated and the birthmark of Thy's young son on the chest. Yet, the mortician do not see how it has anything to do with reincarnation. Both Thy's and Soun's decided to investigate this further with New-Agers, monks, spiritualists for this matter - all of whom indicate reincarnation as a possiblity.
The Soun's now believe that their deceased son must've reincarnated to the Thy's young son at the moment they became pregnant. At this point, these two families are in legal battle and seeking justice authority to determine who's the true ownership of the young boy. They have try to seek a lawyer who's familar with the law of reincarnation, yet have not found such lawyers who believe such a thing seriously to handle in court cases. The Soun's even attempted to kidnap the Thy's son.
The Soun firmly believe their son is reincarnated to the Thy's and want their beloved son back. The Thy's argue that because the wife gave birth, it should belong to them (Thy's). Some people have even talk about Karma being the reason why they are in this situation.
The questions: Does the young boy belong to the Soun's spiritually? Does the young boy belong to the Thy's genetically? Should they both raise the son? Or, is this a worst care of the interpretation of reincarnation?
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Comments
From what I understand of the story, this is not reincarnation, but rebirth.
As per Sogyal Rinpoche in The Tibetan Book of Living nd Dying, rebirth is like this:
"Most people take the word "reincarnation" to imply there is some 'thing' that reincanates, which travels from life to life. But in Buddhism we do not believe in an independent and unchanging entity like soul or ego that survives death of the body. What provides the continuity between lives is not an entity, we believe, but the ultimately sublest level of consciousness." (page 94)
Therefore, to my mind, the son is no longer the same person, but a new 'entity', 'belonging' to the Thy's.
I would have to say that from a strictly Buddhist perspective, the young boy really belongs to nobody, not even himself. He is simply a temporary collection of form, feelings, perceptions, thought formations, and consciousness that has taken on the convention of "the Thy's son". But in truth, there is no one to own, no one to belong to another, no permanent thing that could be said to be "mine", "theirs", "ours", etc..
Since it is considered a parent's duty to rasie their child, it should really be up to the biological family of the young boy to decide what is best for him. So, legally I would have say that whether this young boy was reborn or not, the Thy's should be granted full custody. Perhaps both families could join together and help to rasie him if the Thy's consented, but for whatever reason, the boy was born as the Thy's son.
I can't help but to feel compassion for these hypothetical people. The Soun's are simply attaching to the memory of their lost child, and their attachment is doing nothing but creating a great deal suffering for themselves, as well as the Thys. One could only hope that they were somehow able to realize this, and develop a more skillful attitude towards the whole situation. If only they too could recall the Buddha's words:
Sincerely,
Jason
She discovered that it is impossible, and came to terms with her loss....
And for arguments' sake, I think it IS important to understand the distinction between reincarnation, and rebirth..... and the two ARE very different, exactly as Sharpiegirl ilustrates.
So far, you guys seem to imply that we're a completely different entity/being right? Does the subtlest consciousness means collective memories? There are monks or those who meditate intensively who claim to be able to remember their past lives. Is this possible?
To add some drama to the hypothetical situation, let's say, as Thy's son grew up a bit, he underwent pastlife regression technique by a spiritual expert. Thy's son was now able to remember his past life and saw that he was indeed the son of the Soun's in his previous life. As a result, he now felt close to his former family. From a "letting go" perspective, it's best to let go of your past-life attachment and move on with your life as if you're a property but belonging to the cosmic universe, right?
So as I see it, there is little point in reviving or attempting to maintain and continue an essence of the Past...The important is to develop the qualities encouraged by study of the Dharma, and to develop Positive karma for the future....
I could well see why the boy would want to maintain cordial relations with his previous family....providing this did not obscure his current existence, nor distract him from his life, NOW.... It could compliment, but not replace.
Reading HHDL's autobiographies makes very clear the family love in which he grew up and the deep filial feeling that he experiences. This does not change. He remains the son of fine parents and the sibling of outstanding brothers and sisters.
At the same time, Chenrezig incarnates through him.
Sounds like superstition to me.
"The Dalai Lama explains: According to the Buddhist explantion, the ultimate and creative principle is consciousness. There are diffrent levels of consciousness. What we call innermost subtle consciousness is always there. The continuity of that consciousness is almost like something permanent, like the space particles. In the filed of matter that is the space-particles; in the filed of consciousness, it is the Clear Light...The Clear Light, with its special energy, makes the connection with consciousness.
The exact way in which rebirth takes place has been well illustrated with the following example:
The successive existances in a series of rebirths are not like the pearls in a pearl necklace, held together by a string, the 'soul', which passes through all the pearls; rather they are like dice piled up on top of the other. Each die is separate, but it supports th eone above it, which it is functionally connected. Between the dice there is no identity, but conditionality"
Sharpiegirl, you pay me an unmerited compliment, and I thank you....
:wavey:
If you are into the scientific study of rebirth, have you ever heard of Dr. Ian Stevenson, or Dr. Jim Tucker?
Sincerely,
Jason
However Ian's research seems to require some kind of a Self, a Soul. I'm thinking if this could be avoided.
Brfore you "put karma into the equation", you have to define and identify what you mean by 'karma' in the laboratory. You also have to take the observer into account (vide Heisenberg)
I think the stupidest perversion of reincarnation that I have ever heard was told to me by a friend who swears she heard it here in Sedona (to no surprise). It was from a woman who was moving out East somewhere and had decided to euthanize her dog because she didn't have room in the truck for it, but she said it wouldn't be a problem because it would undoubtedly be reborn by her new home and they'd get together again! Seriously!
I agree with those who say that once you leave this life, that's the end of this life. The next life is its own deal. And Vachagotta hit the nail on the head by pointing out that every sentient being we meet has at one time or another been our kind, loving mother.
Palzang
pretty astute for a five-year old - !!
In any case - it's a good point!
Despite some years of study and practice, as well as meetings with reincarnates in Dharamshala, I am still very confused by what is actually going on when a tulku is reborn. I have tended to turn away from the question as unprofitable to my practice but, as death approaches, I have to admit that I am puzzled. Can you help a poor householder?
I don't think it was particularly astute, it was just something I "knew", it seemed natural to me. I guess that has something to do with why rebirth never seemed like an odd concept to me.
It's funny, I remember thinking the same thing when I was very young, too. Not knowing about reincarnation, I think at that age it might have been just an intuitive response to the unthinkability of not existing. Just glancing at these researches into past lives that was posted, there seems to be a focus on children who claim past lives, so there could be a connection that it was a young age, not so totally entrenched in "this" identity that a "that" identity would not be so unnatural.
in friendliness,
V.
Or was it simply becuase we were too young then to understand Death?
Hmm, yeah, it is a poser, isn't it? I wish I could clear it up for you, but then it'd have to be clear to me, and if it was, then I'd probably be a tulku too! In fact, from conversations I've had with such beings it is often not clear to them what is going on either! Many have said that they have no recollection of their past lives. Others do have such recollections. I think the simple answer is that their intention of returning to samsara again and again until all sentient beings have been liberated is what drives the engine, so to speak. Of course, you also have to ask yourself what is it that is being reborn, or reincarnated as is the case with tulkus. You hear of great masters having multiple reincarnations, a la the three candidates in Little Buddha who were all recognized as reincarnations of the lama who had died, one a reincarnation of the body, another of the speech, another of the mind. What does it all mean? I dunno. It is very confusing, but on the other hand, it is also clear that something is going on.
If you've ever met the reincarnation of a high lama who is the tulku of another great lama you've met, there is no question in your mind that they're the same being, despite differences in appearnance or whatever. Certainly that's true with the Karmapa XVII, who I immediately recognized as soon as I saw his picture. There was no question in my mind that this was the same being I met in his guise as Karmapa XVI.
One time at a public talk Trungpa Rinpoche was asked if he remembered his previous lives. His answer was, "Yes." I think that about sums it up!
My teacher also talks about her former lives sometimes. She says her memories are more sensory than like actual memories. For instance, in her incarnation as Genyenma Ahkon Lhamo at Palyul Monastery in Tibet, she spent most of her life meditating in a cave. Periodically she would emerge to give blessings to the faithful, and she says she has distinct memories of how her hands felt after a full day of touching their heads. As you know, it is said that Tibetans wash only three times in their lives: once when born, once when they get married, and once when they die. So their hair (at least in those days) tended to be a mass of oil and dirt and whatever, so at the end of the day her hands would be literally covered in gunk, and that is what she remembers on a tactile level. Also in her incarnation as Mandarava, she resided in a cave next to Tso Pema, the lake where they tried to burn Padmasambhava at the stake, where she practiced. When her father the King of Zahor sent his soldiers to punish her for consorting with this wild foreigner (Padmasambhava), they had to literally drag her from the cave. She held on so tightly that she actually left holes in the wall of the cave from her fingers grasping so tightly. When we visited the same cave in 1996, her fingers fit the holes exactly, and it brought back a flood of memories for her. So while it's not clear how memory survives death, it does somehow.
Anyway, probably not much help, but they're nice stories!
In regard to the question about birth marks marking injuries from previous lives, I would say they definitely do, at least in some cases. I saw a TV show on just such a case, I think it was on the History Channel or something, about a man who had birthmarks on various parts of his body. During a visit to a Civil War battlefield, he by chance happened on the story of a general who had been wounded very seriously there but who had survived his wounds to go on to live a long life. The wounds, however, had left major scars, including a scar from a bullet that had penetrated his cheek and blown the lower part of his face off. When the man looked at the wounds this general had suffered, they matched his birthmarks exactly, including a large birthmark on his face and jaw that matched the horrific wound the general had suffered. Plus when you compared the picture of the man with the picture of the general, they looked almost identical! This seems to be a clear case of birthmarks matching old wounds from a previous life, and I've heard of others as well, but whether that is always the case, I dunno. It is an interesting phenomenon though, eh?
Palzang
I think I'd vote for the first one, Ajani. I've read of numerous cases where very young children have shown clear memories of past lives that have been confirmed by their parents or others visiting those places, but as they grow older and their little brains get conditioned, those memories fade and eventually disappear altogether. Also a very interesting phenomenon!
Palzang
My first memory is seeing record albums strewn all around me and I leaned in closer to them and I could see the green apple, both sides, from the Beatles albums, though I didn't know that at the time. But I wasn't allowed to touch them. I had no shirt because I could see my belly and I was wearing diapers. So I guess I was sitting on the rug in the basement in my diapers surrounded by my brother's Beatles records. Whenever I saw the apple on the albums I knew they were my brother's and I shouldn't touch.
My mother also has a clear first memory. Her real mother (Maddie) died of tuberculosis in 1935 when my mother was an infant and my mother's first memory is pointing up to a shelf in a cupboard that was open, pointing to a play tea set wrapped in plastic and hearing her mother say "You better not, Chess, it might be covered in germs." Chess was my mother's real father. After Maddie died and Chess proved to be the cad he was, my mother was adopted by Maddie's sister, Jean, and her husband Bob.
My experience is that when young, there is little dichotomy between other and self (mother/child), and that extends to what is real/unreal and this life/that life. I'm 45 now, and my memories of being young are actually memories of memories, but I do recall events when I was 3, 2, 1, a white light, and of dying in the past life. It was all 'natural'....something that was just there...part of the fabric/oneness of being...no dichotomy. I probably would have forgotten or 'pooh poohed' the past life memory if I had a way to rationalize it, or mentally compartmentalize it. But somehow, it persisted...just there and nothing special.
It has only been resolved in the past two years. After experiencing kensho, and then discovering Buddhism as a paradigm, I see this past life memory as karma working in this life. I actually read somewhere (TBLD?) that the passing from the last bardo in this life was important...that it should be stressless because the one passing would bring the last moments as an impression to the next bardos. The moment I made that connection, that 'ah ha', I was finally able to shelve that memory. The attachment became dust.
I see Buddhism as a science of liberation, and past life memories are an added layer of stuff that one needs to address. So, fortunate are those that don't have all that old baggage.
I know what you mean about these things not feeling extraordinary.
I love the way you put this. I can also use it for visualization.
Your post has stopped me in my tracks and got me really thinking deeply. Thank you so much.
Brigid
"The attachment became dust."...
Diamond-clear perception in a few simple words.
My jaw has, metaphorically speaking, joined yours, brigid....
If birthmarks are remainders from wounds, it could give us a hint to what is being passed from one life to another...
My own anam cara, who had spent time with Dom Bede Griffiths, used to ask, "When the spark returns to the flame and the atman to the Brahman, does it still have our name on it?" I don't know, anymore than he did, and I may find out, only to forget 'next time round'.