Do we master Zen, or does Zen master us?

JohnG

I'm a bit reminescent now, after reading the "fellow student attacked" thread. Many times while at the Dojang, we would have a discussion on the art, and the martial arts themselves. The usual debate would be the ' to master the art, a student must ...." one. One thing that I always brought up, and do now again; is it we who master the art, or does the art master us?

Has anyone here ever thought of this? :om:

how

DO WE MASTER ZEN OR DOES IT MASTER US?

Zen is a path towards the cessation of suffering. It's just about letting go.
Are these questions about letting go?

Cloud

Emptiness realizing emptiness.
@how is right, "who is there to master?". The entire question falls apart.

genkaku

@JohnG -- So long as there are two things -- the master and us -- there will be confusion. So long as there is one thing, the same confusion will reign. And to the extent that there is no-thing, the eyes remain blurred.

Really, it's nothing fancy or philosophical. I think everyone has experienced moments of clarity -- pounding a nail, painting a picture, sneezing or kissing -- when there is no room for anything as superfluous as a 'master.' Later, we may dance and sing about the wondrousness of it all, but in that moment itself, there is ... well, there is something and it is pretty relaxed and pleasant ... even if it can't be named.

JohnG

DO WE MASTER ZEN OR DOES IT MASTER US?

Zen is a path towards the cessation of suffering. It's just about letting go.
Are these questions about letting go?

Yes, that is the word I was looking for. When I began the martial arts, many years ago, I was very young, arrogant and thought that it was all kick and enjoy. As I progressed, I began to feel something wrong, missing, I left and thought I could go it alone. To many questions, the fact was, I wasn't accepting what the art is. I returned and let it guide me, (the best explination I can come up with.) The fragility of life is a momentous thing to understand, when one can end it so easily.

I'm very much trying not to be star warsish, but, when I accepted and let go as you said, I became part of a world that can't easily be defined. I became a better cop, 'I' actually heard people, felt their pain and anger! That is why the question, do we master or do we become mastered, by letting go?


genkaku, yes, that I have learned. I am still a beginner, and probably will be for a long time to come. To me, 'mastery' is teacher.

RebeccaS

it was all kick and enjoy.

Vastmind

@genkaku........ And to the extent that there is no-thing, the eyes remain blurred.

How will I 'see' the no-thing then? Blurred vision is still confusion, no?
Removing the blurred vision, I thought was the emptiness.

"Really, it's nothing fancy or philosophical. I think everyone has experienced moments of clarity -- pounding a nail, painting a picture, sneezing or kissing -- when there is no room for anything as superfluous as a 'master.'

Ahhhhh, yes, enjoying the moment. right then and there! I agree,
there's nothing like it!

"Later, we may dance and sing about the wondrousness of it all, but in that moment itself, there is ... well, there is something and it is pretty relaxed and pleasant ... even if it can't be named


I need names to discuss things, though. lolololol

Zen is a path towards the cessation of suffering. It's just about letting go.
..........

ok, if I let go of all the things that cause sufferring, then are'nt I still
attached to the 'temporary, impermanent' view of non-suffering?
How do I let go of craving no suffering?
From the Zen point of view.

how

@Vastminds
How do I let go of craving no suffering?
From the Zen point of view.

Just consistantly letting go of ego over time leaves little for craving to effect.

Zen would say "training for training's sake". Zen practise ( like many other paths) does become the goal of goalessness. The practise of letting go becomes its own activity, just another river with no mind to speed or slow it's journey.
We can point out that it is towards the cessasion of suffering to conveniently explain our compass direction on a spiritual map but in Zen practise, that and a couple of bucks buys you a cup of coffee.

Vastmind

@how.....Gratitude. I understand the craving/letting go connection a little
better now.
Putting it in the frame of " what's being effected", bridged some questions
I have had about Zen for awhile.

Thanks again! :bowdown:

JohnG

Thank you how.

DairyLama

The entire question falls apart.

That's a relief because I didn't understand the question anyway...

JohnG

JohnG

I think we need a moon icon. :coffee: