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A Dharma for the masses

mindatriskmindatrisk Veteran
edited July 2012 in Buddhism Today
I'd like to start thinking about what we can do to take Buddhist teachings to a wider audience. The motive is simple... As Buddhists our core aim and function is to relieve the suffering of others, and since there remains, after 2500 years, ample suffering in the world then our responsibility is to continue to find ways to relieve that suffering.

I'm sure that no-one here is of any doubt that the Buddha's skillful, insightful teachings, when implemented in our lives, have the most potential of any spiritual philosophy for relieving suffering and bringing happiness. However, regardless of this the Buddha's teachings have not made their way into mainstream society in the west - certainly they are more evident, but given the degree of suffering, including depression and stress, in our modern society, I certainly feel that Buddhism has not been as embraced as a real solution as its core merits deserve.

Why is this? Well, my honest feeling is that the Buddha's teachings have become shrouded in a lot of unattractive, intimidating, and unnecessarily abstract elements that put people off, and that the essential teachings that can and will bring happiness are being overlooked, misunderstood and tangled up in elements that are not vital or overly helpful to a modern day layperson achieving happiness.

To successfully integrate the Buddha's teachings in our life, i.e. to be happy and relieve our suffering, does not require any understanding of anything but our tangible day to day existence. To understand karma does not require any great leap of imagination or insight... we can relate karma to simple and understandable experiences, for example, if we act with anger towards someone then there is a good chance that they will act with anger back. Exploring these basic aspects of our lives and bringing clarity to them is sufficient to reconsider our behaviour and to become a more caring person.

What i've noticed on this website and at Buddhist centres etc. is that newbies do not have any real sense of what the essence of Buddhism is. We have people trying to wrap their heads around emptiness, impermanence, karma, meditations, and so on, instead of just recognising their own present and alive Buddha nature that exists within every kind and caring action they perform. This is easily relatable to others - something that every human being identifies with and appreciates, and to me, this is the level that Buddhism needs to be teaching at to successfully achieve what its main purpose is to achieve - the happiness and wellbeing of all life forms.

Buddhism has always adapted. And it has certainly adapted somewhat to western society, but evidently not enough because suffering still prevails over happiness for most people. To me, there is nothing in Buddhism that is sacred and that cannot be foresaken for the benefit of others. To promote the Buddha's core teachings does not even require that we speak of the Buddha, lest it intimidates and confuses anyone. We can take his teachings and adapt them to meet the lives of everyday people and successfully teach them how to be happy and how to relieve suffering, without anyone ever knowing that they are learning Buddhism, and as such we could begin to see the emergence of Buddhists and, maybe, Buddhas, in our world who do not even recognise themselves as what we consider Buddhists. And to me this is fine and beautiful so long as happiness is being attained and suffering is being limited.

And look, this does not negate the more complex, abstract teachings of the Buddha that have immense value - it's just that they need to have their own place for the appropriate student. Our focus as Buddhists must be on the skillful promotion and engagement of compassionate teachings to those who are suffering... it does not matter how, it does not matter under which banner it is done, it only matters that people have the tools to be happy and to limit their suffering. If this is done and achieved with no mention of the Buddha but through the Buddha's teachings then so be it. But at the moment I personally see Buddhism as failing. Simply because we do have the tools and the skills to have happiness for everyone on this planet, but we are using them very unskillfully and that is why most human beings do not have these tools and skills.

What does everyone else think? I think I would like to begin a movement that focuses on the practice and promotion of core teachings with the simple aim of bringing increased happiness and reduced suffering to the masses... not a simple task, I know, but spared of religious cloaking and intimidating teachings, I feel there are core ideas that can be easily taught and implemented into everyday lives that successfully bring happiness... but we as Buddhists just need to be a bit more willing to strip back to basics and make the compassionate lifestyle attractive, understandable, and, essentially, easy to live.

Thank you. :)
«134

Comments

  • Oh, and with it cut out ALL foreign words that we litter our western Buddhism with... it is an obstacle for laypeople, and we don't need to place that obstacle to be successful in teaching. Again, at higher levels then these words are great, because they convey concepts that can't be easily translated into English... but in teaching compassion and kindness to everyday people these words are not helpful at all.
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited July 2012
    I think this movement is already ongoing. Buddhism isn't failing, it's spreading and adapting as it always has. As practitioners spread more compassion and wisdom, and come to their own realizations which empower even greater change, it will continue to spread and cause effective change in the world. And it's not just Buddhism... not at all. How many obstacles has humanity overcome in America for instance, at least legally, without Buddhism (such as sexism and racism and religious intolerance, and maybe soon the bias against gay marriage)? The human race is moving toward harmony in the same way Buddhism would bring harmony, and we should recognize that it's always been doing so.

    Soon I think Buddhism will seem even more "modern" to humanity, since humanity has changed so much. It will grow more out of this than out of any directed movement. In fact why are Americans turning to Buddhism at all? It makes more sense now, is more applicable to the current world-view including scientific discoveries. People are coming to know just how temporary and unsatisfying our worldly pleasures are, especially where worldly pleasures are abundant. We can't help but turn away from them at some point! And that makes Buddhism very attractive indeed.
  • Indeed, I agree with what you are saying, and I have no doubts that humanity is moving in the right direction... but that doesn't mean we can't accelerate our progress, or that we cannot adapt even further to facilitate that acceleration.

    Can Buddhism be further refined? Are their obstacles to people engaging with Buddhism in its present forms? Are these obstacles necessary? These are worthwhile questions. If we find that improvement can be made - regardless of how well Buddhism may be doing - then why not make these improvements? Could we strip Buddhism down to core components that are easily understood and implemented by the masses? I think so! Can we remove the obstacles to people engaging with Buddhist practices? Sure!

    My best friend is Christian, and she won't go near Buddhism, not even to attempt to understand it, because she sees it as a conflicting religion competing with her own... Yet she would obviously benefit massively from Buddhist teachings, and so if these teachings are presented without the religious cloak and without association with anything religious or even spiritual - which is easy enough for Buddhism - and if this means that more and more people embrace and utilise these teachings, then surely this should be how we as Buddhists move forwards?
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited July 2012
    I used to think like that, but unless you're going to set up a center and become a teacher, and have your own set of teachings... And of course some people have, especially in America. There are new forms cropping up because Buddhism is being parsed differently (by some) in America, rather than accepted in traditional form. I can't say that all of it is good, but not all of it is bad. This is how Buddhist reform works, and how it's going to penetrate where it has hitherto not penetrated.

    It's a great thought to have a Buddhism for everyone, even not calling it Buddhism, but what really works is when people actually choose to adopt Buddhism and adapt it for themselves. Hopefully the primary teachings are not abandoned. To have just a "superficial" Buddhism that no longer contains the Four Noble Truths and Noble Eightfold Path, for instance, would be a shame. Maybe it would alleviate some suffering, but it would obscure the real message of where that suffering comes from.

    People can now, when they become disillusioned with worldly pleasure, find plenty of sources even on the internet that "boil down" Buddhism and present the basics without requiring you to flounder through scriptures. I'm not sure we need to "do" anything to make Buddhism more accessible, other than what time is already going to do. People are waking up to a world they're not satisfied with, and everything is right there. It will be changed, it will become different, but it won't be through our wanting of it alone... it will be more through theirs.
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    @mindatrisk, Of course I wouldn't mind hearing if you came up with something concrete, some actual way of teaching Buddhism without it being Buddhism. I think it can only be made so simple and still retain its power...
  • sovasova delocalized fractyllic harmonizing Veteran
    @mindatrisk, I completely agree! When I first got into this stuff pretty much every 3rd word out of my mouth was "Buddhism" -- thinking name dropping would sorta make the world a better place magically, but in my closest circles I found this to actually be counter-productive, putting people off with a "foreign" concept -- people forget that the Buddha was a human being just like us, and in my happy stupor it was something I forgot to mention (but very important!) -- although it's understandable that there is an immense amount of respect and devotion in the east for the legacy he left us, it's still a very sensitive period in the world with the various "competing religions" (an absurd idea in itself)

    There was this awesome site I saw a while ago, www.justbegood.net and I thought what they are doing is really cool.

    I have read in a few books that Buddhist teachings are actually finding their way into the west mostly through psychology and "therapeutic" means. That's cool, but still somehow beyond the reach of an everyday person living an everyday life.

    I have found dharma to be magic in my own life, and it is just like the old homage goes, you can extend the lighted fire from one candle to another and never is the fire reduced, only increased. By being happy and open the trend of compassion naturally spreads, no matter what name it is given. I really do think it is our innermost nature to grow to Love. If I had to name my religion I think it would be just that.

    I think a big thing that puts people off in the beginning is "buddha knows everything" - or in general showing respect to someone that is nice. Regretfully, people seem to believe there is weakness in kindness, and really this could not be further from the truth. Happiness in day-to-day as a valuable "commodity" is just starting to catch on in the "West" but deep down people can't help but vibe, because it feels good to be good. It feels good to have memories of good deeds done, and it feels good to know that you helped someone else feel good. Sometimes it seems so simple that people tend to shrug it off, but I'm glad many many more people are beginning to see the value of meditation, and with time I think many many people will see the value of "pith instruction" .. the invaluable succinct contemplation(s)

    My good friend and I talked about this a few times, the sorta "self-hate" people tend to harbor in the West -- I'm not good enough, I don't deserve happiness, I don't deserve love -- the deluded ideas that totally bring down our ability to even see our unlimited potential! For this there are many techniques that can help someone who's really open to try anything to improve their life (if you have suffered enough). I think firstly I would start a campaign that simply reads YOU DESERVE HAPPINESS, YOU ARE WORTHY OF LOVE

    Can we make happiness and kindness cool again?


    love+courage
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    My best friend is Christian, and she won't go near Buddhism, not even to attempt to understand it, because she sees it as a conflicting religion competing with her own... Yet she would obviously benefit massively from Buddhist teachings, and so if these teachings are presented without the religious cloak and without association with anything religious or even spiritual - which is easy enough for Buddhism - and if this means that more and more people embrace and utilise these teachings, then surely this should be how we as Buddhists move forwards?
    So which bits of the Dharma do you think a Christian would be able to use?
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    @mindatrisk, Of course I wouldn't mind hearing if you came up with something concrete, some actual way of teaching Buddhism without it being Buddhism. I think it can only be made so simple and still retain its power...
    That's secular Buddhism isn't it? ;)
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited July 2012
    @PedanticPorpoise, What's secular Buddhism?
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    @PedanticPorpoise, What's secular Buddhism?
    People who like Stephen Batchelors books. ;)
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    @PedanticPorpoise, That doesn't help much. ;) Do I really have to go research?
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    @PedanticPorpoise, That doesn't help much. ;) Do I really have to go research?
    Have a look here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_Buddhism

    Basically it's Buddhism with all the "supernatural" bits taken out, so effectively a path of self-development?
    Alternatively there is MBSR ( Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction ) which is a therapeutic approach based on the 4 foundations of mindfulness ( Satipatthana Sutta )
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited July 2012
    @PedanticPorpoise, I'm sure that would be helpful for many, but it's not exactly what I mean. Actually I'm not sure what I mean. It doesn't seem very possible for it to be not-Buddhism and still convey what Buddhism conveys. This is what I was asking of @mindatrisk, to come up with something concrete that made sense. :D

    I don't think it's helpful for things like karma and rebirth to end up on the cutting room floor, for instance, but recognize that some would do just that. I'd want the entire essential components to remain intact, because it really is about this cycle of suffering (not just this life)... but put in a non-religious way? I'm not sure that can be done exactly.

    It's easy enough for people, in this modern age, to be able to recognize all the ways in which we suffer and the cause of that suffering. It's reasonable at least, when explained. But a way leading to suffering's cessation? It seems if we get rid of anything of the Four Noble Truths it'll no longer be Buddhism, but if it contains those then it's clearly still Buddhism. There are just a lot of questions...
  • My best friend is Christian, and she won't go near Buddhism, not even to attempt to understand it, because she sees it as a conflicting religion competing with her own... Yet she would obviously benefit massively from Buddhist teachings, and so if these teachings are presented without the religious cloak and without association with anything religious or even spiritual - which is easy enough for Buddhism - and if this means that more and more people embrace and utilise these teachings, then surely this should be how we as Buddhists move forwards?
    So which bits of the Dharma do you think a Christian would be able to use?
    Soooo much! When Jesus said that we reap what we sew, was he not pointing to the reality of karma? If a Christian believed that we reap what we sew could they then not benefit from the Buddhist explorations of karma? That's one point. But the main point is that Jesus commanded his followers to love unconditionally... now that is a lot easier to say than it is to do, and it is evident that in the last 2000 years that the vast majority of Christians have come nowhere near being able to love unconditionally, and why? Because no-one explained how! Or, even why it is so important. It remains an abstract ideal in the minds of most Christians that seems almost unattainable, or only in the realm of Jesus himself. So, where does Buddhism fit in? Well, Buddhism teaches people how to practice tolerance, patience, compassion etc. and it explains why and it explains all its benefits... are not tolerance, patience etc. all components of love? Do these things not add up to enabling a more loving - and maybe even, unconditional loving being? I think so!
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    @mindatrisk, One thing I see is that even if we put together a lot of teachings and call them something other than Buddhism, it might just become a philosophy. People will take it or leave it, as with any philosophy, as with any religion. There are a lot of things that are shared between religions, but people still want to cling to the ones they like and what they like about them. Jesus' message to love one another was really his emphasis, but that's not even what Christians tend to focus on (though they don't discount it).
  • @mindatrisk, Of course I wouldn't mind hearing if you came up with something concrete, some actual way of teaching Buddhism without it being Buddhism. I think it can only be made so simple and still retain its power...
    And so it begins! I have ideas, and i'm sure others would too, it would be a beautiful challenge, no? Maybe I will create a forum where people can go to offer their 'teachings' or their adaptations of Buddhist teachings to meet the specific requirements i've outlined? Or maybe whoever runs this forum will create our own forum where that can be done? I think it would be a wonderful thing. I mean, we don't need to be aiming for mass enlightenment... we don't need to go to that extent, but just to share some tools that do enable happiness and reduced suffering is enough surely at this stage?

    We cannot be stubborn about our practice! The happiness of all living beings is much more precious and vital than keeping any teaching intact. If in massacring the Buddhist faith we extract core ideas that actually bring happiness to people then surely the Buddha would be most pleased! We need to find what works. Buddhism has the solution to the worlds greatest problem... which is suffering and unhappiness. Everyone wants to be happy and relieve suffering, so why when there is a path to achieving this are so few practicing it? Because, I think, it is unclear, intimidating, people do not know what Buddhism is truly about, and also because it is very insular... Christians at least do something with their compassion, they go out and make a difference, whereas Buddhists are a little bit more ponderous.

    There are things in the way... quite obviously, otherwise everyone would practice Buddhism, so why not remove what is in the way and find out what core teachings we need, and how we need to adapt them, to make them attractive and simple to implement? I'm repeating what i've already said but i'm excited! This can be done, and it doesn't require a new Buddha, it just requires a whole bunch of compassionate hearted individuals to have a re-think. The Buddha's teachings are wonderful, they are all we need, we just need to find a new way of informing peoples lives with them.
  • Invincible_summerInvincible_summer Heavy Metal Dhamma We(s)t coast, Canada Veteran
    @mindatrisk:

    I definitely understand where you're coming from, but at the same time, I don't think the onus is necessarily on the global Buddhist community to use the dharma "more skillfully" in order to help people become happier.

    It's really up to people who are unhappy to find the teachings that relieve that suffering, and on their own.
    I met a Korean woman once who was wearing a necklace with a dharma wheel on it. Turns out she was Buddhist, and I told her I was Buddhist as well. She told me she grew up Buddhist, and asked if I was the same way. I told her that my family is a bunch of devout Christians, but I chose Buddhism on my own. She said "It must mean you are a very strong believer in Buddhism to change religions!"
    Just like how some "Born Again Christians" are very adamant about their faith, we should let people seek out Buddhism and understand the strength of the Dharma on their own terms to have "strong" Buddhists.

    Plus, I think it's a matter of history and culture as well. Buddhism isn't mainstream in the West for a lot of reasons, but one that sticks out to me is that the West is historically Christian and thus much of Western culture has, arguably, Christian roots. It's not easy for a completely different philosophical/religious tradition to just suddenly become mainstream. It's just like how in SE/E Asia, Christianity is a religion that has many devout followers, though it will probably remain a fringe religion because Buddhism and other religions are most culturally ingrained. Christianity had centuries to root itself in Western society; Buddhism has only really been in the West for about 50-60 years. Give it some time.


    I also don't think that "newbies" trying to understand more complicated Buddhist concepts is a failing of Buddhism at all. I think it's natural for someone who's eager to learn more about their new-found spiritual path to bite off more than they can chew. All it requires is a mindful nudge to bring them back to the basics. That is what a sangha is for.

    Furthermore, I think it's a slippery slope when we talk of avoiding the use of the word "Buddha" or anything remotely religious. When you learn about geometry, you learn about the Pythagorean theorem - just because the name is odd/foreign/related to an odd cult in ancient Greece doesn't mean schools should stop using it. The name is associated with the teachings for a reason, and I think it's a bit disrespectful to try and strip away any sense of tradition.




    Finally, regarding the "foreign words." Most people new to Buddhism will only really encounter a handful of words, and it's not like the definitions/translations are not readily available. I don't really see it as much of a hindrance.

  • CloudCloud Veteran
    This thread could get very interesting, but I have to hit the hay.

    Good luck @mindatrisk, and everyone. :)
  • @mindatrisk, One thing I see is that even if we put together a lot of teachings and call them something other than Buddhism, it might just become a philosophy. People will take it or leave it, as with any philosophy, as with any religion. There are a lot of things that are shared between religions, but people still want to cling to the ones they like and what they like about them. Jesus' message to love one another was really his emphasis, but that's not even what Christians tend to focus on (though they don't discount it).
    I wouldn't call them anything... i'd purposefully give them no name because it could just become another philosophy / religion / ideal that would mutate into the mess that I see Buddhism as being. It can just be a bunch of ideas... call them advanced common sense, because this is all they are to me. And yes people cling to their beliefs, but our example will always be our greatest advert and teacher. If people see us happy and dealing with difficult situations without suffering then they will begin to notice, and if we are consistent then they will ask us how we are the way we are, and then we simply explain that we think X,Y and Z which allows us to behave as we do. In fact, having no name would be helpful, because it would force us to explain our thinking, rather than just saying 'oh I practice Buddhism', when someone notices our behaviour and asks about it then we'd have to explain the actual thinking mechanics to them.
  • @mindatrisk:

    I definitely understand where you're coming from, but at the same time, I don't think the onus is necessarily on the global Buddhist community to use the dharma "more skillfully" in order to help people become happier.

    It's really up to people who are unhappy to find the teachings that relieve that suffering, and on their own.
    I met a Korean woman once who was wearing a necklace with a dharma wheel on it. Turns out she was Buddhist, and I told her I was Buddhist as well. She told me she grew up Buddhist, and asked if I was the same way. I told her that my family is a bunch of devout Christians, but I chose Buddhism on my own. She said "It must mean you are a very strong believer in Buddhism to change religions!"
    Just like how some "Born Again Christians" are very adamant about their faith, we should let people seek out Buddhism and understand the strength of the Dharma on their own terms to have "strong" Buddhists.

    Plus, I think it's a matter of history and culture as well. Buddhism isn't mainstream in the West for a lot of reasons, but one that sticks out to me is that the West is historically Christian and thus much of Western culture has, arguably, Christian roots. It's not easy for a completely different philosophical/religious tradition to just suddenly become mainstream. It's just like how in SE/E Asia, Christianity is a religion that has many devout followers, though it will probably remain a fringe religion because Buddhism and other religions are most culturally ingrained. Christianity had centuries to root itself in Western society; Buddhism has only really been in the West for about 50-60 years. Give it some time.


    I also don't think that "newbies" trying to understand more complicated Buddhist concepts is a failing of Buddhism at all. I think it's natural for someone who's eager to learn more about their new-found spiritual path to bite off more than they can chew. All it requires is a mindful nudge to bring them back to the basics. That is what a sangha is for.

    Furthermore, I think it's a slippery slope when we talk of avoiding the use of the word "Buddha" or anything remotely religious. When you learn about geometry, you learn about the Pythagorean theorem - just because the name is odd/foreign/related to an odd cult in ancient Greece doesn't mean schools should stop using it. The name is associated with the teachings for a reason, and I think it's a bit disrespectful to try and strip away any sense of tradition.




    Finally, regarding the "foreign words." Most people new to Buddhism will only really encounter a handful of words, and it's not like the definitions/translations are not readily available. I don't really see it as much of a hindrance.

    I think the onus is on compassionate people to shine a light where it is dark. We have to take our light to where it is needed, not just plonk ourselves down somewhere and expect all the miserable folk to gravitate to us. I volunteer with drug addicts... I take my light to them, I don't sit at home and feel that the onus is on them to find me.

    I don't think the west is historically Christian... Christianity is 2000 years old, human civilization is hundreds of thousands of years old, and by and large it is failing because it too has lost its essence. Most westerners are not Christian - even if they call themselves Christian, if you're not following Christ's teachings - and if infact you are contradicting them, then you simply aren't a Christian. I can call myself a tree, but if I don't have a trunk, branches and leaves then it's tough luck for me! I think an idealogy that is not religious, that relates to everyday life, that is understandable and accessible and is being practiced with evident benefit would be very attractive to anyone. And, if it does not have any religious association, people would naturally include it within their own religious practice anyway, thus enhancing it. Like I said, to me this would be like the evolution of common sense.

    Thanks for your reply!

  • @mindatrisk, I completely agree! When I first got into this stuff pretty much every 3rd word out of my mouth was "Buddhism" -- thinking name dropping would sorta make the world a better place magically, but in my closest circles I found this to actually be counter-productive, putting people off with a "foreign" concept -- people forget that the Buddha was a human being just like us, and in my happy stupor it was something I forgot to mention (but very important!) -- although it's understandable that there is an immense amount of respect and devotion in the east for the legacy he left us, it's still a very sensitive period in the world with the various "competing religions" (an absurd idea in itself)

    There was this awesome site I saw a while ago, www.justbegood.net and I thought what they are doing is really cool.

    I have read in a few books that Buddhist teachings are actually finding their way into the west mostly through psychology and "therapeutic" means. That's cool, but still somehow beyond the reach of an everyday person living an everyday life.

    I have found dharma to be magic in my own life, and it is just like the old homage goes, you can extend the lighted fire from one candle to another and never is the fire reduced, only increased. By being happy and open the trend of compassion naturally spreads, no matter what name it is given. I really do think it is our innermost nature to grow to Love. If I had to name my religion I think it would be just that.

    I think a big thing that puts people off in the beginning is "buddha knows everything" - or in general showing respect to someone that is nice. Regretfully, people seem to believe there is weakness in kindness, and really this could not be further from the truth. Happiness in day-to-day as a valuable "commodity" is just starting to catch on in the "West" but deep down people can't help but vibe, because it feels good to be good. It feels good to have memories of good deeds done, and it feels good to know that you helped someone else feel good. Sometimes it seems so simple that people tend to shrug it off, but I'm glad many many more people are beginning to see the value of meditation, and with time I think many many people will see the value of "pith instruction" .. the invaluable succinct contemplation(s)

    My good friend and I talked about this a few times, the sorta "self-hate" people tend to harbor in the West -- I'm not good enough, I don't deserve happiness, I don't deserve love -- the deluded ideas that totally bring down our ability to even see our unlimited potential! For this there are many techniques that can help someone who's really open to try anything to improve their life (if you have suffered enough). I think firstly I would start a campaign that simply reads YOU DESERVE HAPPINESS, YOU ARE WORTHY OF LOVE

    Can we make happiness and kindness cool again?


    love+courage
    :) You are on board then? Let's create a set of teachings that have no religious or spiritual allusions - including references to Buddhism, that are understandable and easily related to the everyday lives of western people, and that genuinely brings happiness and relieves suffering. And when we have our teachings we will practice, practice, practice in our lives to see if they work, and if they do work, then we will be perfect adverts for our teachings.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    You may find a guy named "Adyashanti" interesting. This is basically what hes doing. :)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adyashanti
  • Thank you, i'll read into him a bit more deeply, but just looking on this wiki page we can see some of the same 'problems' I outlined.. the language used, the religious / spiritual allusions, and most unfortunately for his Wiki page, there is no outline of what it is he teaches, although looking at his biblio I can definitely imagine me liking his work, so thank you. :)
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    He has lots of talks on youtube, they are pretty good. :)
  • ThePensumThePensum Explorer
    edited July 2012
    Hello,

    I'll skip to commenting on the last few comments, makes the job a little easier:

    @mindatrisk:
    "i'd purposefully give them no name because it could just become another philosophy / religion / ideal that would mutate into the mess that I see Buddhism as being. It can just be a bunch of ideas"

    Can you elaborate on that mess that you see as Buddhism being? Personally it's my belief that the 80,000 lessons or so taught by the Buddha, and passed down to us through very effective teachers, has been perfected over the past 2,500 years.

    @mindatrisk:
    "I don't think the west is historically Christian... Christianity is 2000 years old, human civilization is hundreds of thousands of years old,"

    Yes the West is historical Christian. Much of the art over the past 1,000 in Europe was inspired by Christ. Monuments, Churches, Cathedrals, the greatest architecture, some of the greatest music (Bach's Passion comes to mind, or any of his cantatas) were composed for the Church, for Christianity.
    Civilization is not hundreds of thousands of years old. Civilization can probably date as far back as 5,000 years. I'll give you 20,000 years. Before that, we were just warring tribes.
    What you are perhaps saying is that a human born in the West is not biologically inclined towards Christianity necessarily. This I will grant you.

    @mindatrisk:
    "d by and large it is failing because it too has lost its essence."

    Where is humanity failing? What exactly is humanity's essence?

    Unfortunately I'd argue we're the same we've ever been, just with the ability to blow ourselves up better!

    @mindatrisk:
    " Let's create a set of teachings that have no religious or spiritual allusions - including references to Buddhism, that are understandable and easily related to the everyday lives of western people."

    I've been searching for such a set of teachings for the last fifteen years. Buddhism is by far the least "religious", or "mythological". It's practicality is on par or better than any Western Philosophy of the past 200 years (which has delved in a lot of technicalities and jargon).


    @mindatrisk:
    "f in massacring the Buddhist faith we extract core ideas that actually bring happiness to people then surely the Buddha would be most pleased! We need to find what works."

    Monks in the forest, teachers the world over, they do not try to distill the Buddha's teachings for individuals? I believe they do.

    @mindatrisk:
    "so why when there is a path to achieving this are so few practicing it? "

    Remember the human condition. Please give us a break. Some of us are lazy. Some of us are ignorant. Some of us are stupid. Some of us just want to work hard 24 hours a day. Some of us need to work to feed their kids; or look for a job. We're in a recession after all. Some of us are homeless.


    MK
  • Teaching is something for the very spiritually advanced.


  • Can you elaborate on that mess that you see as Buddhism being? Personally it's my belief that the 80,000 lessons or so taught by the Buddha, and passed down to us through very effective teachers. has been perfected over the past 2,500 years.

    I’m not sure that they have been perfected, but that is not really my point. The Buddha’s teachings are wonderful, but their presentation is - in my eyes - unskilful, by and large.

    Why do I say this? Because in Buddhism there are certain teachings that are very profound and helpful and that could easily be related to everyday lives to great benefit, but are not reaching those living everyday lives. Why? Because of everything I’ve said… Buddhism is intimidating, it’s not understood, it’s not particularly accessible, unless you are fortunate to stumble across a good entrance book or have a good, welcoming, humble centre near you.

    The problem is not the teachings, it is that we are trying to integrate teachings from a different age and from very different cultures with very different mindsets and attitudes into a completely alien society. And yeah, there are some seekers around who are desperate enough to hunt down and seek out spiritual teachings, but by and large most people do not, and as such great suffering pervades.


    Where is humanity failing? What exactly is humanity's essence?

    Unfortunately I'd argue we're the same we've ever been, just with the ability to blow ourselves up better!

    I was referring to Christianity failing, not humanity, but my sentence wasn’t constructed very clearly… apologies!


    I've been searching for such a set of teachings for the last fifteen years. Buddhism is by far the least spiritual. It's practicality is on par or better than any Western Philosophy of the past 200 years (which has delved in a lot of technicalities and jargon).

    True, but it’s not good enough! I’m not saying anything weird here… I’m just saying let’s continue to evolve these teachings as has occurred for 2500 years. My slightly ‘revolutionary’ point is just that maybe the best way to serve the Buddha’s intention of ending suffering for all living beings (not just those beings seeking the end of suffering) is to remove any obstacles between the core teachings and the potential students. One such obstacle is the allusion to any kind of religion or spirituality in teaching compassion.


    Monks in the forest, teachers the world over, they do not try to distill the Buddha's teachings for individuals? I believe they do.

    Indeed, but how are they helping my next door neighbours on prozac who sit in front of their TV every night drinking a bottle of wine? Or the drug addict who hates himself and has no hope for his future etc. etc. There are many wonderful teachers, but their teachings require that people come to them, whereas my suggestion is that we create a teaching that can be confidently taken to the masses, because it is understandable, easy to implement, relevant to their day to day lives, and is of no conflict to any currently held beliefs.


    Remember the human condition. Please give us a break. Some of us are lazy. Some of us are ignorant. Some of us are stupid. Some of us just want to work hard 24 hours a day. Some of us need to work to feed their kids; or look for a job. We're in a recession after all. Some of us are homeless.

    There is no ‘human condition’. You are what you say you are. No-one is lazy. No-one is ignorant. No-one is stupid. You are free to do as you please, seek whatever you wish to seek… and if you want a break from those who want to do all that is possible to help others, then don’t read their threads! Otherwise, thank you for your great questions and insights. J
  • Teaching is something for the very spiritually advanced.
    Then you must be very spiritually advanced! For have you not attempted to teach something with these words? I personally feel that all human beings are teachers, and that we all are teaching one another, and that as teachers we do wonderful jobs... but, as students we are terrible! I think the time is gone when we will have great spiritual teachers influencing the masses and there will be a greater responsibility on simple individuals like you and I to share our piece of the puzzle. We don't need one person who knows and sees it all... we just need everyone empowered and encouraged to offer the gift they have in their hearts, and then learn to harmonise all those pieces.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    @PedanticPorpoise, What's secular Buddhism?
    One of the great debates is whether Buddhism is a religion or a philosophy. This forum doesn't discuss that much, but others do, and some forums are quite adamant that Buddhism is not a religion.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    @mindatrisk, perhaps I'm misunderstanding your overall proposal here. But a concern in my mind is that Buddhism is there for all to explore...but only when they are prepared to seek it. It sounds to me as if you want to spread Buddhism, which is not too much different than other religions peddling their spiritual wares. Where I began learning about Buddhism was Thailand, and there there is a deep feeling that you never proselytize. That people should come to Buddhism totally of their own volition. That every temple is open to everyone, and all are welcome.

  • Ficus_religiosaFicus_religiosa Veteran
    edited July 2012
    About the forum-thingy, I can't imagine how that'd work out.. I think it's a great idea to pass on Buddhist advice to non-buddhists whenever possible and not call it Buddhism.
    I do that a lot. As long as you don't say "that's what is called such and such in Buddhism and you should try this and this" people are pretty open to the suggestions you have.

    A good thing about this is, that as Buddhism spreads, people will have heard some of the teachings already, which could make them more open to the rest. They didn't know, that what they heard (and found helpful) was actually Buddhism and when they realize, they will automatically be more positive.

    The most effective way to do this, as I see it, is to make a group where we commit to spreading Buddhism whenever relevant, without calling it Buddhism - be it in real life or on forums for people with problems.

    A group could be entirely disorganized like Anonymous, with no formal leader and no formal HQ to secure maximum impact with a minimum of sensation. A movement, a Buddhist meme

    (edit: of course this would still require people to seek out Buddhism in order to actually know that what they heard was Buddhism. Maybe they will not realize even then. As such my suggestion deals both with the problem of spreading happiness, spreading Buddhism and letting people come to Buddhism by themselves)
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    If you can improve it, go ahead.
    If you can't improve it, go ahead.

    Either way, just go ahead with patience and courage and doubt.
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    I was hoping there'd be some actual ideas, some teachings, figured out by now... ;)
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited July 2012
    @PedanticPorpoise, What's secular Buddhism?
    One of the great debates is whether Buddhism is a religion or a philosophy. This forum doesn't discuss that much, but others do, and some forums are quite adamant that Buddhism is not a religion.
    I think Buddhism has become a religion, but is still very different from our normal conception of religion. The Buddha meant it as a path to alleviate suffering, I think. The teachings for both lay Buddhists and monastics are about non-harm/non-suffering. If we're adamant that Buddhism is one thing or another, we might fail to see how it's now many things combined. So count me out of those arguments. :D
  • SileSile Veteran
    @mindatrisk, while I disagree with some of your points, I think I do get some of your drift; it seems clear to me that the Dalai Lama, for example, makes a consistent point of doing what you are suggesting--stressing general ethics and wisdom.

    In order to strengthen the foundation of these ethics in a new population, at some point people have to accept them not on faith, but through reason--otherwise it becomes just another personality cult or fad which can fall apart at any moment. To ground themselves in reason, then, the new population needs to not simply know that the Four Noble Truths exist, but study and understand at least some basic proofs and theories supporting their validity. Once grounded, then, the new student will find vital information in historic and current teachings as to how to apply ones now-reasoned faith in the Four Noble Truths.

    Again, I do agree that there are certain basic concepts--for example, that ones beliefs should be reasoned, not blind--that we could do a better and more elegant job of conveying to those interested.

  • zsczsc Explorer
    There are schools of Buddhism that are more palpable to the masses. The problem is, intellectual westerners dismiss it as ritualistic superstitious hocus pocus. Forget the community (sangha) that those practices offer people, where they have access to the dharma and trust in the Buddha completely. Oh wait.
  • zsczsc Explorer
    And I wouldn't say that Buddhists don't have an impact on the world's liberation. Keeping in mind that our various practices make a positive difference in the world like ripples from a single point in a pond. That's what a dharma talk was about once.
  • ThePensumThePensum Explorer
    My slightly ‘revolutionary’ point is just that maybe the best way to serve the Buddha’s intention of ending suffering for all living beings (not just those beings seeking the end of suffering) is to remove any obstacles between the core teachings and the potential students. One such obstacle is the allusion to any kind of religion or spirituality in teaching compassion.
    Personally I don't think those obstacles are that large. That's just me. And personally any intelligent reader can determine the importance of compassion, and can obtain that determination by reading Buddhist texts, and modern adapatations by spiritual leaders.
    Indeed, but how are they helping my next door neighbours on prozac who sit in front of their TV every night drinking a bottle of wine? Or the drug addict who hates himself and has no hope for his future etc. etc. There are many wonderful teachers, but their teachings require that people come to them, whereas my suggestion is that we create a teaching that can be confidently taken to the masses, because it is understandable, easy to implement, relevant to their day to day lives, and is of no conflict to any currently held beliefs.
    Sounds a little like "Hillsong" to me.

    In all seriousness though, even if you have something easily available and accessible to the masses, it's still going to be the result of an active will on the half of the "seeker" to actually go out and find your advice, your new teaching. So just having something easily found by the "masses" isn't going to achieve much. After all there are reams of self-help stuff on the internet, and forums like this, that offer some great "advice," advice from world class philosophers, spiritual leaders; that's just in addition to any book you can find in a library.

    The point is that the first hurdle an alcoholic (for example) has to overcome is to figure out he has a problem. That's a huge hurdle. By the same token, for any bad habit an individual has (lack of compassion say), the first hurdle in overcoming it is its recongition. That hurdle that will stop him from going to your teaching.
    There is no ‘human condition’. You are what you say you are. No-one is lazy. No-one is ignorant. No-one is stupid. You are free to do as you please, seek whatever you wish to seek… and if you want a break from those who want to do all that is possible to help others, then don’t read their threads! Otherwise, thank you for your great questions and insights.
    Perhaps let's pull it back then. There is no human condition. But there are habits, and habits are pretty tough to break for a lot of people. There is the slothful habit, the alcoholic habit, the habit of ignorance. Sorry to say it, yes people are ignorant, and some people are stupid, or put another way, less able to adapt to some situations, or learn new skills, than are others.

    All I was pointing out here is that however much you can put out and distill Buddhist-tinged teachings to the masses, there will be people who are not interested, don't care, or simply don't have the time. That is the reality.

    The reality is also that individual spiritual and psychological development is a struggle, it's not supposed to be easy. It is also deeply personal, and will be different for everybody.
  • Thank you for everyones thoughts... I'm having a good think about what this new thing could entail to serve my stated aims. I have a few ideas that I think can serve as seeds that we as a community can nurture. My first sense is that whatever it is it needs to be concise, simple and effective. And it almost needs to be a slight evolution of the laypersons thinking rather than a slight devolution (or reduction) of the Buddhist's teachings... that might sound like a subtle distinction, but rather than us trying to think how we can make the Buddhist mindset simpler for the layperson, we need to think how can we advance the laypersons mind towards the Buddha's teachings. In other words, we need to go to their level and take a step forwards with them, instead of us trying to drag them into our direction. Thank you to everyone, so much to think about and consider, but let's be positive and creative and just see what can be done, even just as a fun exercise it will make us that bit more skilful in our practice. :)
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    The most effective way to do this, as I see it, is to make a group where we commit to spreading Buddhism whenever relevant, without calling it Buddhism - be it in real life or on forums for people with problems.
    I don't understand the idea of spreading Buddhism without calling it Buddhism.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    Could we strip Buddhism down to core components that are easily understood and implemented by the masses?
    But what are the core components, and how would one avoid throwing the baby out with the bathwater?
  • Invincible_summerInvincible_summer Heavy Metal Dhamma We(s)t coast, Canada Veteran


    I think the onus is on compassionate people to shine a light where it is dark. We have to take our light to where it is needed, not just plonk ourselves down somewhere and expect all the miserable folk to gravitate to us. I volunteer with drug addicts... I take my light to them, I don't sit at home and feel that the onus is on them to find me.
    @mindatrisk - I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I think you're going down a slippery slope here.

    It's not always skillful - in fact, I'd argue it's often quite unskillful - to bring the Dharma to people's doorsteps, so to speak. Yes, Buddhism is all about social justice, compassion, and the cessation of suffering, but it doesn't mean that one should try and convince others that they need their suffering removed. That can only be done through practice of the 8FP on the sufferer's part.


    Having someone tell you how great that cake is vs. actually trying the cake for yourself.
    I don't think the west is historically Christian... Christianity is 2000 years old, human civilization is hundreds of thousands of years old, and by and large it is failing because it too has lost its essence. Most westerners are not Christian - even if they call themselves Christian, if you're not following Christ's teachings - and if infact you are contradicting them, then you simply aren't a Christian. I can call myself a tree, but if I don't have a trunk, branches and leaves then it's tough luck for me! I think an idealogy that is not religious, that relates to everyday life, that is understandable and accessible and is being practiced with evident benefit would be very attractive to anyone. And, if it does not have any religious association, people would naturally include it within their own religious practice anyway, thus enhancing it. Like I said, to me this would be like the evolution of common sense.

    Thanks for your reply!

    If it's not historically Christian, then what's with the centuries-old cathedrals and abbeys all over Europe that predate modernity?

    I'm not really talking about whether or not people actually practice Christianity despite calling themselves Christians - that's a strawman. What I'm referring to is the fact that Christianity is pretty much a given in Western society, whereas Buddhism and its concepts are more or less still "exotic" in the West. Even if you take away the Sanskrit/Pali terminology, the ideas still aren't mainstream enough, although it's getting there. Again, I don't think it's the fault of Buddhists not trying hard enough to preach or whatever, but rather a cultural barrier.

  • The most effective way to do this, as I see it, is to make a group where we commit to spreading Buddhism whenever relevant, without calling it Buddhism - be it in real life or on forums for people with problems.
    I don't understand the idea of spreading Buddhism without calling it Buddhism.
    You just pass on some of the wisdom in Buddhism. I think for Buddhists it's quite difficult not to do so. If you pass it on saying "In Buddhism this is called ... and remedied by ..." you put people off, sounding like a missionary. So you just give them advice. The advice will reflect your Buddhism, thus pass on Buddhism without it being called Buddhism.
    The point is, that you can help people.
  • ThePensumThePensum Explorer
    edited July 2012
    The most effective way to do this, as I see it, is to make a group where we commit to spreading Buddhism whenever relevant, without calling it Buddhism - be it in real life or on forums for people with problems.
    I don't understand the idea of spreading Buddhism without calling it Buddhism.
    You just pass on some of the wisdom in Buddhism. I think for Buddhists it's quite difficult not to do so. If you pass it on saying "In Buddhism this is called ... and remedied by ..." you put people off, sounding like a missionary. So you just give them advice. The advice will reflect your Buddhism, thus pass on Buddhism without it being called Buddhism.
    The point is, that you can help people.
    Still, this what is the significant development here? I would think most effective teachers would probably provide advice, if wanted or if the occasion arose, without encapsulating it with a Buddhist certificate (ie "in Buddhism this is called ...").

    Not that I am a go-to person when it comes to this kind of stuff, and I have never had the arrogance to proffer a solution to spiritual need or personal growth, but if it were to happen, I would not throw in the word "Buddhism" or "Seneca" or "Stoics" or "Jesus" or whatever, unless of course I knew that that individual would not be put off by schools of thought that really only have offbeat names, from a Western perspective, going against them.


  • Even if you take away the Sanskrit/Pali terminology, the ideas still aren't mainstream enough, although it's getting there. Again, I don't think it's the fault of Buddhists not trying hard enough to preach or whatever, but rather a cultural barrier.

    I don't mean to overlook everything else you wrote, but what you wrote here is exactly what I think Buddhism needs to be considering, because at core there is nothing exotic or 'un-mainstream' about Buddhist ideas about compassion, kindness etc. We just need to remove those cultural barriers and make the practice of compassion desirable and achievable in western culture, which shouldn't be hard because compassion, kindness, tolerance, peace etc. are all standard religious subjects and human concerns... there is no human who doesn't value and desire kindness and people helping and supporting them, in fact, these are the things all humans want more than anything, so I really don't see why there should be such obstacles between these shared human desires and a teaching system which has pretty much perfected their practice and development. And I don't think preaching is the way to get the message out there. I'm thinking on it, and i'll have something written up soon. :)



  • Not that I am a go-to person when it comes to this kind of stuff, and I have never had the arrogance to proffer a solution to spiritual need or personal growth, but if it were to happen, I would not throw in the word "Buddhism" or "Seneca" or "Stoics" or "Jesus" or whatever, unless of course I knew that that individual would not be put off by schools of thought that really only have offbeat names, from a Western perspective, going against them.
    Why do you say 'arrogance'? I think it takes great humility to go to someone you see suffering and share your experience and understanding as a possible means of helping them.

  • SileSile Veteran
    edited July 2012
    A Dharma for the masses (the American masses, at least) would need to include teachings made available in the many languages of America. The Christians have long ago recognized the importance of reaching peoples' hearts via religious services and publications using mother tongues. For sheer numbers, nationwide the first additional language would need to be Spanish; after that, one can look at each city's local government practices to assess need (in our area the next language would be Hmong, for example--the buses here even have Hmong public service announcements).

    It takes a long and careful path to accurately translate the terms and concepts of any particular philosophy; fortunately, Spanish is well underway given the interest already in the dharma in Spanish-speaking nations over the past several decades, and translations of some dharma literature is already available. It would be a matter of finding Spanish translators for local dharma centers or at least for outreach work.

    Our teachings here are currently given in Tibetan and/or English, with a Chinese translator as needed.

    Out of curiosity, what are the languages used in other NewBuddhist members' dharma centers, if other than English?

  • mindatrisk:

    Trying to adapt Buddhism to the hedonist values and aims of modern culture is the destruction of Buddhism. The proper course of action is for modern culture to adapt to Buddhism by first giving up its deep attachment to materialism, hedonistic values, and scientism.
  • In other words, we need to go to their level and take a step forwards with them, instead of us trying to drag them into our direction.
    Ouch. I wouldn't like to be a non Buddhist thinking that Buddhists see me as lower than them, which is what this statement definitely implies. "Look at all the poor little non Buddhists going around with all their suffering and their Jesus and their Allah and their atheism, we must bring all the poor little non Buddhists to Buddhism but they're stupid so we have to make it easier for them". Seriously, ouch.

    All I'm seeing on this thread is this idea that Buddhism is right, and everything else is wrong. "My religion is better than your religion" and "my way of doing things is better than your way of doing things".

    Have more respect for people. There is nothing wrong with being Christian or being atheist or whatever, it certainly doesn't put you below Buddhists, and it doesn't mean that the only reason that you're not Buddhist is that you don't understand or you find it alienating.

    It's naive and narcissistic. As someone said above, a slippery slope.

    This doesn't mean there couldn't be more information available to people, but the idea of dumbing down or reducing it in any way to make it more "palatable" is really offensive to current Buddhists and to the people who it's aimed at because it's based around the idea that they're stupid. The idea that you have to hide the Buddhism in Buddhism isn't lying to people, but it's pretty close and based on the assumption that they're too stupid/afraid to be Buddhists. And that's just arrogance.

    I'm not shouting at you or anything, but this path you're walking right now is a dangerous one and it's based in naïveté and ignorance. Tread carefully.

    With much metta.
  • SileSile Veteran
    edited July 2012
    I'm not sure what you mean by bringing the population a step closer to Buddhism instead of adapting Buddhism to the population, but if you mean making additional Buddhist concepts more widely known--basic, helpful concepts which we believe Buddhism has gotten right, but maybe haven't gotten out there as much as other concepts, then I agree this could be good.

    By way of example, as mentioned above, I think of the concept "reasoned belief is stronger than blind belief." I think it would be good for Buddhism if people realized this is an important philosophy of Buddhism--but beyond that, I think it's a concept which would be healthy for people to consider adopting in general. As a former Christian, that simple phrase was an eye-opener...something I'd never considered, but struck me as true and logical the moment I did.

    You mentioned spreading the concepts of love and kindness--of course I agree these are good concepts to spread, but see that Buddhist people--along with those of nearly every religion--do stress those things already. Even secular public schools stress respect and non-harm, so it's clear those things are already considered good in modern society. Certainly, more love is always better! In keeping with our reasoned faith concept, maybe it would be good for Buddhists to stress the "why" more, though. The deep, long-studied reasons why loving-kindness is so vital.

    I would continue to look very carefully at the Dalai Lama's talking points. Of all current Buddhists, he has without question brought Buddhist concepts to the masses, without proselytizing, and with a focus on conveying to the widest number of cultures and personalities possible what he considers the most important points. His goal is not to convert but, as a deeply-studied Buddhist, to bring the good things Buddhism has learned to the general public--for their sake, not for Buddhism's sake.

    I'd like to ask you for (if you feel like it) one example of where you see current Buddhism failing, who it is failing, and an example of what you might do to address that particular issue. As a second question, you mentioned Buddhism has in your opinion become "shrouded" - can you give an example? As a translation-minded person, I see just the opposite--Buddhist concepts becoming better and better translated over time, and into more and more languages. So I'm curious about this point.

This discussion has been closed.