A.A. and the 12 Steps Versus Buddhism and the Sangha...

Tosh

Something has been on my mind for a while, so I thought I'd share it here.

I'm a member of A.A. and we have a spiritual path which is complete in of itself, or perfectly complimentary with any religion, so for a few years now I have been practising the 12 Steps and Buddhism.

The core of the 12 Steps is the following:

Dealing with our past (very much like tonglen practise 'giving victory to our enemies)
Watching our behaviour (continuing to take personal inventory) which easily translates to living an ethical life.
Prayer and meditation
Practising compassion (specifically in helping newcomers to A.A. get and stay sober).

It's very similar to the core of a Buddhist practise:

Ethical life
Prayer and Meditation (developing wisdom)
Practising compassion

I work and have a family, so free time is precious to me, so recently I have been devoting most of my spare time to helping newcomers in A.A.. I like the A.A. sangha too - there's no (or very little) pretensions and no rituals - and we have A.A. meetings everywhere that cost nothing to attend (though we do pass the hat).

I guess I'm thinking about ending my Buddhist studies and contact. The deciding factor is that when it comes to practising compassion, I'm far more useful in helping other alcoholics recover from their illness than I am in any other areas of practising compassion.; in fact I love watching a newcomer arrive in a bad state; often close to suicide, get sober, stay sober, grow spiritually and get happy. It's lovely to be a part of it.

So, my question is, do you think I would be making a mistake in withdrawing from Buddhism and just focussing on my 12 Step spiritual path?

MaryAnne

A mistake? I certainly wouldn't see it that way.
And I think it's absolutely wonderful that you want to help others in AA.

I need to ask though... you aren't setting aside Buddhism all together are you?
I can see how it could be very important to limit time here on forums, in sangha, and in active 'study' in order to free up more time for something you find important... but are you saying that you're "not going to be a Buddhist" any longer? :-(

karasti

it sounds to me almost as if in practicing what you do in AA, you are still practicing Buddhism. Do you really have to choose between the 2? or just have one take more of a back seat than the other, and if you feel the need to meditate or whatever, you can. Or perhaps the other way around. I don't think you have to choose, I think it is normal for your ability to practice hard-core things to wax and wane. Perhaps it's time to give Buddhism a break and concentrate on something else, but I bet in the future it'll change around again. Buddhism is really about keeping it simple. Part of just being a good person is following the 8Fold path. There isn't some kind of requirement to be Buddhist to study or meditate. If you are keeping in mind the simple things about Buddhism, and practicing compassion, then why feel the need to "drop" anything? And, I for one would miss you around here. I enjoy your comments.

andyrobyn

Hi Tosh,

I had a similar experience, except in my case I came to a point where I had lots of thoughts around withdrawing from my 12 step activities to focus more on my Buddhist activities.
After awhile I came to a point where I now do not need to compartmentalise my life in such a way and even though on most days I do not attend any meeting I use the steps and concepts in my affairs in a natural way.
I still love the ritual of 12 step meetings and attend one whenever I can and benefit greatly from the sharing experience.
I also do not attend a Buddhist centre often these days either - my daughter gets me to take her to special days and attends group teaching and meditation on a weekly basis so I take her and see others due to this ( she will be able to drive herself soon ... probably will be using my car !! ).
12th step work opportunities are everywhere and as you say sit very comfortably with all aspects of Buddhist practice.
I found during the first few years of recovery I had a narrow focus and as the years have gone by my ability to see a wider view has grown.

Jeffrey

I would advise to keep a small foot in the buddhist sangha. Yes you have limited time, but you can value both. But what you are doing is great practice, and yes I believe in multiple lifetimes. Maybe just do a refuge prayer in the morning and arousing bodhicitta prayer before going to AA. The arousing bodhicitta prayer might guide you? I think it has spiritual power.

Arousing bodhicitta:

May the heart's awareness waken in the unawakened
Where it has begun to stir may it never fade
And may it awaken fully

Davetheseeker

Being in AA as a recovering alcoholic I find my practice to be a great help to my 12 step program. As has been mentioned.
I don't really understand why you 'feel' you need to drop one for the other.

Also passing on the things our practice as a Buddhist has taught us, like compassion and proper meditation/calming the mind, is of great benefit to others in the program.
As we all know our mind can cause us our greatest downfalls.
And it can be passed on with no mention of ones spiritual path.

May your decision be of great benefit to you and all others you help on their path.

Beej

Alcohol has had a huge impact in my life. I have three immidiate family members in AA. Another goes to the Al-Anon support group. Also have aunts and uncles and cousins involved as well. IMO opinion they have all improved their life as a result of going to AA, but this is because of the choices that they make, not because of the groups they are in. Though its quite clear that AA works, if you work with it. And those choices keep my family together by a few reseliant threads. It's almost a miracle that I didn't have to end up there too, but alas I found a different way. I broke free of alcohol and it's entaglements by breaking my attatchment to almost everything that I used to tell my self I needed, and with those attatchments went my desire to drink. Ultimately, it doesn't matter what group you are in, be it AA, your sangha, or a knitting club. If it works for you, if you find it to be a noble use of your time, if you can practice compassion, and if you fall asleep at night knowing you did your best or at least wanting to do your best when you get another shot at it tomorrow, then I think thats just fine. Better than fine, really. Its dandy. I will miss you here if you go @Tosh, because your candid insight into the matter at hand has helped me understand my own family members a little better, and it helps me to practice compassion for them, and even for myself. So, simply put, you are a help here. You are a help at AA. I have a feeling you'd be helpful at a knitting club if ever you ended up there, too. Go where your heart tells you. Help who you can, when you can, where you can.... and don't forget to keep helping yourself. Just keep comin' back.... where ever you decide "back" should be.

genkaku

@Tosh -- To the extent you need to compartmentalize, then get your head screwed on straight: Sober is more important than Buddhism. At the extremes, if you quit Buddhism, nothing bad will happen; if you quit AA, the shit is likely to hit the fan. Those are, as I say, the extremes, but it would probably be a good idea to keep them in mind. I don't know how grounded you feel in your sobriety, but to the extent you are not entirely sure of your footing, sobriety is the most important thing. Period! Talk to your sponsor or whatever other AA comrades you trust. Get their take ... especially from the old timers who may be more aware of sidetracks.

Only you can make up your mind, of course. But if for some reason you decide to put Buddhism on the shelf for the moment, don't imagine it is lost forever. When it wants you, it will come and find you.

First things first.

Best wishes.

OneLifeForm

Upon reading the title I thought a battle was about to be had!

I am a member of Narcotics Anonymous.

As you've said the 12 Steps are very complementary to whatever path an individual takes.

In my experience the 12 Steps are simply there to help an individual find out what path works for them. My workings in that program pointed me to Buddhism.

Buddhism is the wisest stuff I've come across yet, no way would I give that up.

The First Seal:
All Compounded Things are Impermanent

The Second Seal:
All Emotions are Painful

The Third Seal:
All Phenomena are Empty; They Are Without Inherent Existence

The Fourth Seal:
Nirvana is Beyond Extremes

The problem I see with the post is that if you are Buddhist now, there is no way you could give it up or end your studies.

So, that being typed, if you attempted to deny such things as being true then you would actually be harming yourself, big time.

What you might want to ask yourself is whether or not it is a cop out.

Buddhism can appear to be quite daunting.

I have banged my head against the wall before in attempt to hope that these things arent true.. because I am lazy. I don't really want to do the work. I'd rather not have to take a look at all of these things.

As one grows the path becomes narrower, that is what makes a lot of people abandon spiritual paths, be it 12 Step wagons, Buddhism, other faiths, etc.


They say the truth will set you free but at first it will make you miserable. Working through the "misery" is crucial.


As a fellow twelve stepper I type this post out of concern for your well being.

If you are a Buddhist then you must accept it, there is no running away from it, that will only be needless suffering.

If you don't find the four seals to ring true then perhaps you could step away and be ok and a different path awaits you, one that is more suitable to the creature that goes by Tosh on this site.

Sile

We already have everything we need (Pema Chodron). You might decide to spend more time on your AA colleagues and call it "giving up Buddhism," but someone else might look at that and label it, "Applying Buddhism." One nice thing about maintaining at least a small personal practice, though, is that it helps ensure you spend at least a little time focusing on your own mind and needs, in addition to others'.

charirama

Have you read "One Breath at a Time: Buddhism and the Twelve Steps" by Kevin Griffin?

zenff

Yes. Drop Buddhism. Be who you are.
(Because doing so is what Buddhism is all about imho)

poptart

The Buddha said, once you have crossed the river you don't need to carry the raft.

Buddhism IS practice. You cannot ever leave us if we are already one.

Good luck with whatever you do.

caz

A.A is a very good programme but it is not an end to suffering it is a bandage for problems that will change shape and the intensity at which they manifest. If you are having problems reconciling doing A.A with Buddhism you maybe need to rethink your imagining of the Bodhisattva's way of life as a method separate from helping people at A.A.

Bunks

I wish you all the best Tosh.....

seeker242

Helping people at AA is true Bodhisattva action.

in fact I love watching a newcomer arrive in a bad state; often close to suicide, get sober, stay sober, grow spiritually and get happy. It's lovely to be a part of it.

Buddhist "Mudita" in action. If you keep doing this, sorry to say that dropping Buddhism would be impossible! In order to really drop Buddhism, you would have to become a car thief or something like that.

Tosh

Thanks guys, it's been interesting reading your thoughts. I've bought another 'Buddhist' book that was recommended to me in this post. I think what I've really done is over complicate things. Morning meditation, evening meditation, Lam Rim, studying the Two Truths from the point of view of four different Buddhist schools, studying Emptiness, Buddhist psychology, Bodhichitta, Dependant Arising; reading lots of Buddhist books, listening to lots of Buddhist talks...

I think I just need to step back from it all and simplify everything. Just living an ethical life, doing some regular breathing meditation, trying to cultivate positive traits and decrease negative traits, and showing compassion to others.

I do think a sangha is extremely important and I do really like my A.A. sangha. It's full of people who want to be 'better' human beings; it's good for my motivation to practise; and I find newcomers to help there.

You know, every weekend I arrange to meet up with an A.A. newcomer early on. I like to meet them early since it doesn't interfere with family life so much and it shows me they're motivated and willing to recover from their alcoholism. So I give up a weekend lie in to do this. For that alone I should get a good rebirth!

Thanks again!

Tosh

OneLifeForm said:

Buddhism is the wisest stuff I've come across yet, no way would I give that up.

The First Seal:
All Compounded Things are Impermanent

The Second Seal:
All Emotions are Painful

The Third Seal:
All Phenomena are Empty; They Are Without Inherent Existence

The Fourth Seal:
Nirvana is Beyond Extremes.

You know, I think us alkies and addicts have a unique insight into suffering and the reasons for it. We do the reduce to absurdity thing and take craving to the extreme. We know that emotions are painful; alcohol wasn't really my problem, alcohol was my solution to the real problem, and that was the way I felt when I was sober.

And take a look at the Third Seal; emptiness of objects, phenomena and self. The emptiness of self always reminds me of A.A.'s Rule 62; "Don't take yourself so god-damned seriously". If the self is empty of inherent existence, there's not a lot to take seriously is there?

Most things I find in Buddhism, I do also find in A.A., funnily enough. A.A. (for example) teaches me that my primary purpose is to stay sober and help the still suffering alcoholic. I can use this intention for everything I do; even taking care of my family or working or resting enables me to stay sober and help other alkies. My Buddhist course teacher said that Boddhichitta can be our motivation for everything we do too.

Can you see the similarities? I can.

A.A. does not deal with death though, quite rightly too, it's a program for living, but in Buddhism I've heard if we live well, we will die well; though I've yet to test that one!

federica

That's what a delightful Bikkhuni told me once: "It's even better than "The 4, the 8 and the 5: Simplify!!"

She was right.
I sometimes think we feel we have to be such good Buddhists, that to be a really good Buddhist, you have to know it all, practice it all and live 'n' breathe it all 100%, 100% of the time.

We don't.
Simplify, with right Effort. Lute strings, neither too tight, nor too loose....

This is what makes us good 'Buddhists'. Doing the best we can, with what we've got.

MaryAnne

Tosh said:
"I think I just need to step back from it all and simplify everything. Just living an ethical life, doing some regular breathing meditation, trying to cultivate positive traits and decrease negative traits, and showing compassion to others."

Wise words, from a man with a big heart and a bunch of "Buddha" in him.
:thumbsup: It's too late; You're a "goner"...

Beej

One of my family memebers told me that when the Dalai Lama was asked, "what is America's greatest contribution to the world?" he replied, "Alcoholics Anonymous."

Don't know if that's true and I don't have a source for it, but anything that teaches you to "not take yourself too seriously" is a spot on idea, IMO.

jessie70

Tosh,
You have gotten such great responses in this post. I think over one's lifetime, the amount of time and type of effort we can put into learning about Buddhism will ebb & flow. But as evidenced by your post, whatever we learn along the way need not be un-learned. It has already been added to who you are, and how you process. Everyone has already pointed out, that it seems that based on your compassion and care, that you have much of the Buddha nature in you, whether you have time to intellectually pursue teachings or not, you have integrated your learning into who you are. Your post was very inspiring to me.
Happiness to you, and may your good works flourish

lillymac61

Hi Tosh, it's been a while since your post but I feel drawn to share my experience with you. My spiritual path started with AA and for years I accepted the tenets and did my best to live them everyday. After doing a 10 day Vipassana retreat, something shifted within me. Excited by my discovery of the Dharma I began to study meditation and teachings but along the way, I found I could no longer integrate my AA life with what I was learning and practicing. I won't go into the reasons why because they are irrelevant, but what I found was an anxiety that seems to be the reverse of yours. I spent many months feeling guilt at abandoning a fellowship that supported me so well. Recently, after talking it through with a cherished AA friend I have found peace in my decision because I realised I do not have to shut the door entirely on AA, I can appreciate and retain the useful things I learnt there and be grateful for all I received. I don't no what is going to happen to me in the future and I may find myself in the rooms again, so I remain open to all that is good in my life without having to put a label on it. Helping newcomers is a fine expression of compassion and in these efforts you are carrying your buddha-inspired wisdom with you wherever you go. May you be well, may you be happy.