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Liberation and oneness (My first post)

Hi Everybody,

This is my first post on this site and I am very interested in hearing many opinions.

My question is regarding liberation and the idea of oneness. I believe that liberation is possible, i believe that Buddha as well as many others have achieved true liberation and the cessation of suffering, and i also believe that everybody is one and the same, that we are all God. We are all the Universe. We all are the same energy and matter being expressed in different physical forms. When i look at someone else, my first "conditioned" thought is - This person is separate from me, they don't look like me or act like me, based on the physical senses they are different, but upon further inspection it is quite evident that they ARE me. When the "bare bones" or "rawness" of the person is observed - which happens sometimes only very briefly, or in slight glimpses - It seems obvious that they are the same (i'm not going to elaborate any further just because I want to get to the point and not bore anyone)

So what I am perplexed about is how if we all are one in the same, being expressed differently only in regards to physical appearance, but spiritually we are literally the same essence of life, then why is it that liberation is such an individual experience? What i mean by this is if i am the same as any other person, then why must i achieve liberation independently from then and break the cycle of death and rebirth on my own. It seems very individualistic to me.

Also, i understand that we, as a collective whole, can gradually move towards a more awakened state while we are here on this earth and become more spiritual, but it seems that there will always be "individuals" who will not be willing to join in the movement or even fight against it.

Is this because while we are here on this earth, as this physical form, we can ONLY be individuals?

Any opinions/ideas/insights are very welcome, and i apologize for my scatterbrain approach to this post -i need to work on that clearly!






PrairieGhostcoz

Comments

  • There's nothing lacking, either alone or in company.
    Sabby
  • There's nothing lacking, either alone or in company.

    My my, so simple. Here i am expecting a long and detailed response, but then i see this and it put a big smile on my face, i keep forgetting that less is more and everything WILL be ok. Thanks for the response PrairieGhost :)
  • :) no problem, and welcome.
  • cozcoz Explorer
    awsome question
    well i feel that as we strive to achieve enlightenment
    we do affect others and we do affect all ,,,, as we are all a part of the same energy
    and we are what we think ,,, it will affect everyone in a possitive way
    so no matter what even tho we serch for our own elightenment we are in fact
    sharing that enlightenment with all, sort of like tebetin prayer flags
    or when the monks make a sand picture of the temple and then toss the sand in the wind with all there good intentions we will constantly affect everyone with our own
    enlightenment
    peace and joy
    Coz
    Sabby
  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandokai
    Identity of Relative and Absolute

    The mind of the Great Sage of India was intimately

    conveyed from west to east.

    Among human beings are wise ones and fools,

    But in the Way there is no northern or southern Patriarch.

    The subtle source is clear and bright; the tributary

    streams flow through the darkness.

    To be attached to things is illusion;

    To encounter the absolute is not yet enlightenment.

    Each and all, the subjective and objective spheres are related,

    and at the same time, independent.

    Related, yet working differently, though each keeps its own place.

    Form makes the character and appearance different;

    Sounds distinguish comfort and discomfort.

    The dark makes all words one; the brightness distinguishes good and bad phrases.

    The four elements return to their nature as a child to its mother.

    Fire is hot, wind moves, water is wet, earth hard.

    Eyes see, ears hear, nose smells, tongue tastes the salt and sour.

    Each is independent of the other; cause and effect must return to the great reality

    Like leaves that come from the same root.

    The words high and low are used relatively.

    Within light there is darkness, but do not try to understand that darkness;

    Within darkness there is light, but do not look for that light.

    Light and darkness are a pair, like the foot before

    and the foot behind, in walking. Each thing has its own intrinsic value

    and is related to everything else in function and position.

    Ordinary life fits the absolute as a box ands its lid.

    The absolute works together with the relative like two arrows meeting in mid-air.

    Reading words you should grasp the great reality. Do not judge by any standards.

    If you do not see the Way, you do not see it even as you walk on it.

    When you walk the Way, it is not near, it is not far.

    If you are deluded, you are mountains and rivers away from it.

    I respectfully say to those who wish to be enlightened:

    Do not waste your time by night or day.
    Sabby
  • Sabby:
    So what I am perplexed about is how if we all are one in the same, being expressed differently only in regards to physical appearance, but spiritually we are literally the same essence of life, then why is it that liberation is such an individual experience?
    "Then the Tathagata, with his unobstructed pure eye of wisdom universally beholds all sentient beings in the dharmadhâtu, and says: Strange! How Strange! How can it be that although all sentient beings are fully possessed of the wisdom of the Tathagata, because of their ignorance and confusion, they neither know nor see that?" (Avatamsaka Sutra)
    Sabby
  • Sabby said:

    Hi Everybody,

    My question is regarding liberation and the idea of oneness. I believe that liberation is possible, i believe that Buddha as well as many others have achieved true liberation and the cessation of suffering, and i also believe that everybody is one and the same, that we are all God. We are all the Universe. We all are the same energy and matter being expressed in different physical forms. When i look at someone else, my first "conditioned" thought is - This person is separate from me, they don't look like me or act like me, based on the physical senses they are different, but upon further inspection it is quite evident that they ARE me. When the "bare bones" or "rawness" of the person is observed - which happens sometimes only very briefly, or in slight glimpses - It seems obvious that they are the same (i'm not going to elaborate any further just because I want to get to the point and not bore anyone)

    So what I am perplexed about is how if we all are one in the same, being expressed differently only in regards to physical appearance, but spiritually we are literally the same essence of life, then why is it that liberation is such an individual experience? What i mean by this is if i am the same as any other person, then why must i achieve liberation independently from then and break the cycle of death and rebirth on my own. It seems very individualistic to me.

    The feeling of oneness ie. I am God, I am Life is not Buddhism.
    'He has been stilled where the currents of construing do not flow. And when the currents of construing do not flow, he is said to be a sage at peace.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? 'I am' is a construing. 'I am this' is a construing. 'I shall be' is a construing. 'I shall not be'... 'I shall be possessed of form'... 'I shall not be possessed of form'... 'I shall be percipient'... 'I shall not be percipient'... 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient' is a construing. Construing is a disease, construing is a cancer, construing is an arrow. By going beyond all construing, he is said to be a sage at peace."

    Dhatu-vibhanga Sutta
    "'Everything exists' is the senior form of cosmology, brahman."

    "Then, Master Gotama, does everything not exist?"

    "'Everything does not exist' is the second form of cosmology, brahman."

    "Then is everything a Oneness?"

    "'Everything is a Oneness' is the third form of cosmology, brahman.
    "

    "Then is everything a Manyness?"

    "'Everything is a Manyness' is the fourth form of cosmology, brahman. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.etc etc

    Lokayatika Sutta: The Cosmologist


    Sabby
  • Hi @Sabby

    Yes, we are the same. We have the same dreams, the same emotions, the same desires. Our minds operate the same way and we are social animals. We have a group identity that connects us to our family, friends, tribe, and life itself. We are One in a most basic and profound sense.

    We are also different. We have different memories, habits, experiences, hopes, and personalities. We are each unique in a most basic and profound sense.

    One does not negate the other. We are One in our Uniqueness. Let that rattle around in your mind for a while and see what pops up.

    Welcome to the club!
    Sabby
  • hello sabby,

    may i introduce you to the subject of the five aggregates.

    Form,
    Feeling,
    Perception,
    Volition,
    Consciousness.

    They neither exist or not-exist but self-existing.

    The cycles are the interactions of these aggregates, you may find that these covers everything from individuals to the whole samsara.

    You may find that when you are a bit more awakened,
    the whole samsara becomes less of a suffering.

    mindfulness and wisdom to all,
    kilesa
    Sabby
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    Believe anything you like. Believe in oneness. Believe in separation. Believe in the wondrous nature of something called enlightenment. Believe that various people have achieved marvelous states .... believe to your heart's content. Belief and $2 will get you a bus ride.

    A Buddhist practice is not designed for believers. It is designed for those who know, for a realization and actualization of what is simply true ... not sexy, not profound, just true.

    "Buddha" means "awake." Is there anyone anywhere who wakes up in the morning wondering whether they are awake? How could anyone wonder such a thing without, in fact, being awake? Does anyone toss and turn wondering whether anyone else is awake and if so, how they managed it?

    OK, so there are obstructions and a little reflection and a little meditation may help to clear things up. So ... there is practice. But the practice is not aimed at what you don't know. It is aimed at what you do.

    PS Being "a little bit enlightened" is like being "a little bit pregnant." Time for a reality check. :)
    PrairieGhostZeroSabby
  • genkaku said:


    PS Being "a little bit enlightened" is like being "a little bit pregnant." Time for a reality check. :)

    :D
    Sabby
  • edited September 2012
    I think you've raised a great question. I'm new to Buddhism... so take my idea as just an idea But, do you accept the biological idea that a cell has a life that's individual (it lives and dies as a cell), and yet it's part of a whole entire being... that also depends on it's "health" and regeneration... ?

    It's possible that we may (and I say may, because I don't really believe in very much when it comes to cosmology), we may, be like cells of a larger spiritual being. We may have our own independent spiritual health, and regenerate, if you will, into new cells, that continue to be part of the larger whole.

    Cells are independent, and unique, share characteristics, and yet they are part of a bigger entity... maybe that bigger entity is part of another one... and so on and so forth. And this could be true on a spiritual level, too.

    Maybe.
    RebeccaSSabby
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    genkaku said:

    A Buddhist practice is not designed for believers. It is designed for those who know, for a realization and actualization of what is simply true ... not sexy, not profound, just true.

    Yes, and beliefs, disbeliefs and speculations can get in the way. ;)
    ZeroSabby
  • It's great hearing everybody's ideas, and to read the quotes posted! I have appreciated everyone of them.

    Would anyone recommend any sources of literature or other source that relates to the initial question or where many of these wonderful quotes posted in this thread are from?

    It is interesting to know other people here are wondering the same thing and that some are so at peace with the idea. I do find myself becoming more at peace with the whole idea, it is just that i have been a scientific mind most of my life which has led me to over think things (it is something i am working on). From what i have learned from the branches of Buddhism i have looked into is that the answer is usually a simple one rather than a difficult one, we just tend to fabricate complex ideas with our minds, which is already a fabrication in itself and that only leads us farther from the truth - It is a slippery slope!

    A little quote i came up with this past summer "We must learn to live with our minds, then without it" Thought of it after reading the Tao Te Ching and reading the Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle. Note that when i say mind i am talking about the more egocentric mind that most westerners locate in the head.
    PrairieGhost
  • jessie70 said:

    I think you've raised a great question. I'm new to Buddhism... so take my idea as just an idea But, do you accept the biological idea that a cell has a life that's individual (it lives and dies as a cell), and yet it's part of a whole entire being... that also depends on it's "health" and regeneration... ?

    It's possible that we may (and I say may, because I don't really believe in very much when it comes to cosmology), we may, be like cells of a larger spiritual being. We may have our own independent spiritual health, and regenerate, if you will, into new cells, that continue to be part of the larger whole.

    Cells are independent, and unique, share characteristics, and yet they are part of a bigger entity... maybe that bigger entity is part of another one... and so on and so forth. And this could be true on a spiritual level, too.

    Maybe.

    I have definitely thought about this exact idea on numerous occasions, I'm currently in school for science and in classes such as immunology etc. It is utterly amazing to learn how cells of the body are so intertwined to each other. The way i see it is that the cells know exactly what to do in order for the system to function properly and are basically programmed to do so. I see ourselves in relation to cells, although we have awareness. I wonder if cells have awareness? It's quite a funny question, because if they were aware of themselves i'm sure some of them would think, hey i'm lazy today i am just not going to go to work, and poof... We're dead :P


    jessie70
  • xabirxabir Veteran
    edited September 2012
    Hi Sabby, your idea of oneness and liberation is the I AMness realization (which teachers like Eckhart Tolle are based on). However this is not yet liberation in buddhism. There are further to realize.

    Check out http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html

    Stage 5 also answers your question - there is no universal mind but unique, non-dual and empty minds.
  • Sabby, Jessie70,

    I wonder if we are the cells and the worldwide web is now conscious? How many connections before conciousness?? I think in order for the web to be sentient it would have to want something.. sooo what does the web want?
  • @Jeffrey apparently lots of pictures of cats. Just chiming in here.
    SabbyJeffrey
  • The sense of oneness occurs when there is letting go.

    The more letting go there is the more openness, sense of oneness, love there is.

    This brings about a new sense of freedom for the individual.

    Now from here a practitioner can go in many different directions.

    Oneness isn't much of a problem but it can be a problem.

    How? An serious meditation practitioner will reify oneness into a source by clinging to the sense of presence, awareness, nothingness, spaciousness, combination of those.

    And this inevitably will condition suffering/stress.

    The core delusion of the fabrication of a thing isn't examined.

    But that is for when a practitioner gets there.

    On a positive note this experience and way of looking can bring about a transformation of the heart and being, which brings great freedom.

    But the Buddha went even further and there is more freedom, which hopefully those practitioners can intuit.

    Either way suffering will bring them to investigation.

    Not all insights, realizations and meditative attainments are equal.

    Though we want to package them into neat, simple, easy to digest packages. This is just our projection of what we like.

    Some thoughts to ponder.
    Sabby
  • edited September 2012
    Sabby said:

    jessie70 said:

    I think you've raised a great question. I'm new to Buddhism... so take my idea as just an idea But, do you accept the biological idea that a cell has a life that's individual (it lives and dies as a cell), and yet it's part of a whole entire being... that also depends on it's "health" and regeneration... ?

    It's possible that we may (and I say may, because I don't really believe in very much when it comes to cosmology), we may, be like cells of a larger spiritual being. We may have our own independent spiritual health, and regenerate, if you will, into new cells, that continue to be part of the larger whole.

    Cells are independent, and unique, share characteristics, and yet they are part of a bigger entity... maybe that bigger entity is part of another one... and so on and so forth. And this could be true on a spiritual level, too.

    Maybe.

    I have definitely thought about this exact idea on numerous occasions, I'm currently in school for science and in classes such as immunology etc. It is utterly amazing to learn how cells of the body are so intertwined to each other. The way i see it is that the cells know exactly what to do in order for the system to function properly and are basically programmed to do so. I see ourselves in relation to cells, although we have awareness. I wonder if cells have awareness? It's quite a funny question, because if they were aware of themselves i'm sure some of them would think, hey i'm lazy today i am just not going to go to work, and poof... We're dead :P


    LOL! @sabby: It's nice to see I'm not the only one pondering that imponderable. I guess the analogy does break down... unless we are just as conditioned as the cells. But since you are studying immunology, and the like- what about cancer? Cells are kind of committing suicide, in a sense. Here's a riff on the same idea: Maybe we are like cells to something bigger, and that bigger thing is more conscious than we are, and it makes up the next big thing that has a "super-consciousness"....and so on. We could be like the hair on a bug.
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