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Logo Design Dilema

Hey fellow members. I am currently working on a new project of a logo design and everything is fine, easy stuff apart from one crucial aspect. It is for a Chinese client and the logo has one word in English and 2 calligraphy symbols. It needs to look clean, simplistic and stylish/expensive. I know the fonts, how to layout the parts to obtain this but the problem is she said that she wants the calligraphy to look more westernized. How would one go about doing that? I would appreciate serious answers and not humourous ones, cheers.

Comments

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    are the two symbols in Chinese? Maybe it's just a question of turning the strokes into blocks with rounded ends.... It's hard to give input without seeing the word/calligraphy....
  • Just like with most languages there are fonts, and she told me that this could be shoown in thousands of ways due to the font styles. Here is the link the word, it means 'boat mountain'.

    http://www.zhaozi.cn/fonts/china/riben/?text=??

    I really want to get it right for her as well as me as it will pretty much break or make her newly established company. I have created quite a few logos before, but making Chinese calligraphy more westernized is a noodle scratcher for me.
  • Sorry you need to add these into the bar at the top and press enter 舟山
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    I think this is going to need hand-work. I don't think it's going to be easy to incorporate and create such a design using a computer program alone.

    but I'm a tecchie doofus, so maybe I'm wrong....
  • No I can literally create my own calligraphy, so if you mean by handwork drawing or something then no it is fine. It just seems really difficult to make something so Asian westernized and appear to be stylish and expensive.
  • Well... First off... Why does she want Chinese characters? Why is that important to her and to the brand? Is the product Chinese or is she Chinese? Is the business in china? Does it represent the company or is it just a bit of an arbitrary decision on her part? Because if it's just unnecessary or doesn't really make a lot of sense you could advise her against it. It might not solve the problem because she might not take the advice :lol:

    Another route could be taking a look at some Chinese characters in other mediums and seeing how other designers have tackled the calligraphy in various places.

    Maybe something like a brush change (something very solid, or even going another way and using a pattern brush) could provide you with the effect you're looking for? But I know that it would be very detailed and not necessarily appropriate for a logo...

    But good luck! Design is so awesome :)
  • She is Chinese and all I know is that the logo is for silk scarfs, maybe more I don't know. I have come up with something really quickly and slap dash as a first attempt, but as with all my clients I say that I will show designs as I go and then they can comment on what they like or dislike and then improve on that.

    She gave me a link with the two Chinese words in different fonts, so I have enough calligraphy thanks. I am just trying to maintain it being clean, simple, looking expensive and making the Asian aspect look more westernized.... :wtf:
  • :lol:

    I don't know then, we probably have different approaches to this kind of thing and my way of tackling it is probably different to yours :)

    But I'm sure you'll come up with something! Sending you creative vibes!
  • Thanks Rebecca, I am going to show the client what I have done so far and we will discuss things from there. She is really laid back with time and a deadline which is good. I am sure I will end up with a design she is happy with :)
  • Ahhh the dream client! That's a rare one for sure. Let us know how it goes :)
  • Yea I have about 5 logo designs so far that I have bashed out over night and this morning and am waiting for her to wake up. Then as we dicussed she will take a look at them and say what is what. My last client was really cool with time as well. I actually have had quite decent clients looking back at them now to be honest.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited October 2012
    TT, if she says she wants it to look more "Westernized", it means stylize it. Make it look a little more abstract. It may not be important to show the individual brushstrokes, for example, which are what make it look "Chinese". Play with it.
  • It is meant to be really simplistic and stylish. In fact I will copy part of what she required so you can get a better idea and then I will post a few screenshots of what I have done so far.

    'Yes, I want use both CHAUSAN and the Chinese character. But no third part.
    Your are correct, CHAUSAN needs to be looking like Chanel or Fendi or L.V style.

    And the Chinese bit has to be nicely westernised into something which doesn't look too Chinese. This must sound odd to you, but I need to make it look expensive rather than cheap Chinese stuff. :)

    By the way, I am Chinese, so when I see cheap Chinese rubbish, I really can see it, lol.'

    Anyway yea I have bashed these out in a day and the typeface is not a sure thing, that can always be changed but I think it works. I have just been playing around. The calligraphy I actually did draw myself with the pen tool in illustrator. This is still in the early stages to be honest, I am just waiting for her to wake up so I know where I stand.
    RebeccaS
  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran
    I was going to comment saying that the more calligraphy-like or accented brush strokes... that makes it seem more 'Asian' and less westernized to me, but you seem to already have figured that out. :)

    Nice work, Tom. I'm very drawn to the first one (yellow on black background) and the last one, for some reason, but they are all very nice. Second choice would be fourth one with large font and small Chinese characters.
    PrairieGhost
  • PrairieGhostPrairieGhost Veteran
    edited October 2012
    I totally agree with zombiegirl. If it's silk scarves, I'd say the 1st one is a cooler, edgier brand, whereas the last one is more respectable.
  • I LOVE the black one!! The first one! It looks very high-end-brand sort of thing. It looks like it already exists out in the world, in use. Meaning it looks like a done deal, it looks ready to just put on products, ads, scarves, perfume boxes, whatever. And yeah, the last one would be my second choice. They both (the black especially) already look like Chanel, Fendi, etc. HOT!

    Great job, Tom!
  • edited October 2012
    My vote is for the first as well. Might even cause me to buy a scarf, which is way out of character for me.
    RebeccaS
  • My vote is for the first as well. Might even cause me to buy a scarf, which is way out of character for me.

    LOL! This is what I was thinking! Tom, let us know when the scarves become available! :thumbsup:
  • Thanks for the responses guys, much appreciated but the client for some reason actually wants the chanel font (which is impossible so I had to find the cloest to it), and has a different notion of it all. But thanks for the help and comments everyone.
  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran
    That's kind of disappointing that she just wants to copy it. Oh well. Apparently, Chanel's font is called ITC Avant Garde Gothic Demi. Hopefully there won't be any sort of copyright issues.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    I think there's a little bit of 'dishonesty' here. She's trying to profit from their look.
    That's naughty.
    Yes. look into copyright and what their hold on anything is.
    I take it she's turned down further input from you?
  • @Federica is correct. The Chanel font is copyrighted by the company http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chanel#Corporate_identity

    The font @Zombiegirl mentioned is a close match, though.

    Fonts in logo design can be a legal madhouse when it comes to copyright, trademarking and licensing. I often email the font designers to make sure I understand how they've licensed it and to make sure I can use it (I'm not keen on the outline loophole, even though the law recognizes it), but I prefer to do my own typography just to make sure I'm not infringing on anyone else's work, and to make sure that the client is getting something unique to them. It does depend on the client, though. If I'm doing a job for a few hundred bucks I probably wouldn't have time to draw up a custom font, but it is my favorite way to do it where possible even if just to avoid the legal head scratching :lol:

    Sorry that your client ended up being lame about her vision for her brand :( It's not cool that she just wants to basically steal stuff. Not good for business at the end of the day.
  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran
    Maybe you can talk her out of it?
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    In a London east end market, a stall owner - a true-blue-blooded cockney who had lived there all his life - had his market stall canvas canopy manufactured in a specific shade of green, and his name emblazoned on the front, in the style of London's most famous Department Store. His name was Harrap. he called his stall, "Harrap's",

    Harrod's Board of Directors took him to court - and won.

    I forget what he sold, but of course, his tiny little stall was no threat to the Store, but it was the principle of his using their trademark shade of green, and his name in their gold-lettering typeface....
    The Judge awarded damages of just £5.00 - but the canopy - with its distinctive gold lettering - had to go.....
    RebeccaS
  • SileSile Veteran
    edited October 2012
    Curious about the "Chau" part of Chausan...I guess Chausan might look a bit more European than Jausan or Zhoushan.
  • Actually, on the subject of copyright, @ThailandThom have you heard of myows.com? They copyright/date mark your work for free. It's a really cool service and I keep looking for ways to recommend it to people :)
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited October 2012
    Well, wait a minute. (Thinking out loud.) It would be Tom's client, not Tom, who would have to worry about copyright infringement, no? And she's Chinese, so they're always pirating logos and brand-names, she probably doesn't care. Is she Taiwanese? "San" is the Taiwanese pronunciation of "shan", the 2nd character in the name. Now whether or not Tom wants to be a party to that is another question: professional integrity, right livelihood, and all that.

    I still think the black and gold are really classy. :)
  • I was way ahead of you, I found a font that was very close to it but isn't actually the font, it is called SF New Republic. Anyway the client has returned to the first design to run with but with this font below and to experiment with colours and some how try to make the calligraphy subordinate. I shall see how it goes and what gets requested of me next :p haha.
  • Experiment with colors? Chinese red, that red with a little pink in it? And spring green, and white? Too cliche? Oh well. I'm getting into this. Let us see it when you're done.
  • I know of a fair few decent colour combinations, and of course they need to relate to the design. I am really busy at the moment, I have more than this job running so I am not posting so much on forums at the moment. Appreciate the feedback here though, cheers :D
  • ZeroZero Veteran
    If you're not using the exact font, you dont have it in your mind to copy the style or to use their goodwill for your purposes then you're probably alright - the general test is whether a reasonable member of the public would be mislead... the product line is also important (e.g. more of a risk in perfumes than foodstuffs say).

    You can only prevent so far - the organisations have methods of checking the marketplace for infringement - this are usually via the registrys (so if you try to register a trademark, patent or design right) - depends also on jurisdiction (where the alleged infringement is thought to take place)

    Consider your contract with your client carefully - you may either try to exclude liability for infringement in your standard terms and conditions or to assign all rights in your designs upon payment or that the rights will be with the principal once the design is complete and paid for - this will probably mean that you do not have any interest in it nor do you control its use.

    I think they go for the actual infringers rather than the designers (unless I suppose there is a causal link between the two which doesnt appear to be the case here).
  • @Zero the designer wouldn't get into legal trouble because he transfers the rights to the client (I assume, that's a standard contract but I do know some designers actually license the design to the client rather than transfer the rights) and so they're responsible for it.

    But if a designer did infringe on copyright and the client got sued it could seriously damage his reputation which is really important, especially in the current design climate where the Internet is littered and polluted with these design "contests" that just refuse to disappear already :lol:
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