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As a part-Christian, this kind of Christian tripe annoys me to no end

vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
Now before someone gets in a dither, remember, I consider myself sorta half-Christian and half-Buddhist.

But it just irks me when a Christian says or writes something like I just found from a friend of mine on Facebook: "Survived Frankenstorm- able to keep electricity and no damage. God's blessing!"

So let's see, God blessed you folks in northern Virginia but decided to make people in the NYC and NJ areas suffer flooded homes, wind damage, no electricity, isolation, etc.

I may believe in God, but I certainly don't believe God makes that kind of decision.

Prometheus
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Comments

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    I've seen a lot of "if you pray hard enough, the hurricane will dissipate and not cause any damage!" and that kind of stuff drives me nuts. It just encourages people to not prepare and plan and listen to emergency officials, because it's some crazy test of faith that if God means you to live, you'll live no matter what. It's not the wrath of satan versus the good of God's people. It's a natural phenomenon occurring because of certain conditions existing in our atmosphere, ocean and other weather patterns. Praying is not going to make God erase the hurricane.

    I can't imagine living that way, it seems like it would be a terrifying way to live-in constant fear and hope that God will spare you and put his wrath on others.
  • The Archbishop of Canterbury did an interview in the movie which for the life of me I can't remember the name of... And he adressed this question. I'll try and find it because it was a great movie anyway, but what he said was really good. I just can't remember that either :o
  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran
    Or maybe the omnipotent God could have just... not sent the hurricane to begin with...?

    I actually never knew you considered yourself half-Christian. Not like it matters, just never realized somehow.
  • Is it much different to those Buddhists on forums...( I have never heard it the flesh, but then that is true of all sorts of stuff that turns up on websites..I guess its the anonymity )
    who say that the dispossessed and injured had it coming due to their karma ?
  • RebeccaSRebeccaS Veteran
    edited October 2012
    @Citta I think that's true, but as westerners we assume negative karma is some kind of punishment (because of our associations with a vengeful Christian god) which I don't think is the case.

    From our perspectives as onlookers, as simple humans with egos, we see terrible things happening, but for all we know, it's actually the best possible thing that could have happened to the individuals involved.

    It makes sense if you believe in an eternal aspect of life, perhaps a soul.

    At the end of the day we're at the mercy of our own perception of these events which is intrinsically flawed.
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    I do tend to believe that everything that happens to a person has a lesson in it. Not on some cosmic "this event was handed to you because you need this lesson" but that there is just always something to learn in every experience. People affected by Sandy will inevitably take different things away from it. For some, it'll be a blip, and they will rebuild. For some it'll be life changing and they'll move. For some it'll be the worst thing that ever happened, and even for some, it might be the best thing that ever happened, once they move on with life and look at lessons learned and changed perspectives.

    I don't look as karma as retribution of any sort. It's just a normal cause and effect, and I don't think someone acting badly brings on a hurricane as a part of natural cause and effect. Perhaps someone will get more help than someone else, because they have been kind in the past and built those connections and the karma associated. That would be a better example of karma coming from the storm situation (for me). Doesn't mean the other person deserves less help for being less kind. Just that being more kind has natural rewards, and vice versa.
    DaftChrisJeffreypersonPrometheus
  • I feel we should not judge someone else's faith or beliefs... We may want to look at why that is upsetting to us, that someone else is grateful to their choice of "God". Does it also bother us when a sports figure points to the sky and gives thanks for being allowed to score a touchdown or homerun? These are all freedoms of expression, if anything we should be grateful that we are allowed to have these expressions.

    seeker242lobster
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    Just because I may not particularly like someone's choice in words or expression doesn't mean I'm not grateful that they have the right to express themselves. I wouldn't say it bothers me, but yes, I get the same sense about sports figures in that situation. It just doesn't follow, logically. If it makes them happy to believe it, then so be it. But I don't think pretending you can pray away a hurricane and make it turn around and go back out to sea (yes, some people actually said that) is helping anyone, and in fact can be hurtful to people.
  • B5CB5C Veteran
    A storm is just a storm. Mother nature doesn't give a damn on who or what it destroys or saves. Anybody claiming that every event has a supernatural meaning is a loon.
    stavros388WonderingSeeker
  • ZeroZero Veteran
    vinlyn said:


    "Survived Frankenstorm- able to keep electricity and no damage. God's blessing!"

    I may believe in God, but I certainly don't believe God makes that kind of decision.

    Sheepishly hold my hand up to part of this offence.

    I've had numerous near misses and for each one I've thanked the universe in its totality and counted it as a blessing - then changed my shorts.

    Perhaps it's comforting when probability has personality.
  • In reference to @B5C I wouldn't say that God sends a storm, but I would say that our minds have an experience during the storm which is rather obvious. And you could say whatever experience you have on your plate is all you have got and it is the only place to look for learning and appreciation in life. I wouldn't use the word supernatural but I would say spiritual in that any time you have a mind or experience there is spirit by which I just mean the seat of the six consciousness (senses and mind).

    Anyways I totally agree with B5C I am just piggy-backing my thoughts.
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    "Is he willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then is he malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god?"

    person
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited October 2012
    The nature of the world is dukkha. Thus how could a God create a world not stamped with the three marks? Would it even be possible?

    Maybe God created the world as a natural activity like a sneeze or humming a song.

    In a sense that relates to omnipotency but it is a variation. It is saying that any possible world would have suffering. So in that case should God have omitted to create a world? Does God suffer?
    lobster
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    Jeffrey said:

    The nature of the world is dukkha. Thus how could a God create a world not stamped with the three marks? Would it even be possible?

    Maybe God created the world as a natural activity like a sneeze or humming a song.

    There is no creator other then mind. The concept of an Omnipotent creator is not in fitting with reality.
  • There is Brahma I think, but he is like in my post I wonder. Brahma would be subject to karma and could not create a world outside of the three marks.
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    Jeffrey said:

    There is Brahma I think, but he is like in my post I wonder. Brahma would be subject to karma and could not create a world outside of the three marks.

    Oh yes there is the Maha Brahma, Buddha had several encounters with him, I believe this is the being that people universally refer to as God. However he Maha Brahma is a being afflicted with Ignorance the story goes that at the beginning of the Aeon Maha Brahma was the first being to descend into his heavenly realm and there he remained for a very long time alone and wishing for company, out of his great wish beings began to be born into his realm from the higher heavens above Maha Brahma mistakenly believed himself to have created these beings and the beings below him.

  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran
    What's interesting is that I say, "Oh thank god!" all the time, even though I actually have no interest in thanking him/her/whatever. Just a saying... but kind of similar to the OP. Sometimes I think people just say stuff like that out of habit. Maybe they're just trying to be thankful but not really thinking it through.
    Bunks
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Citta said:

    Is it much different to those Buddhists on forums...( I have never heard it the flesh, but then that is true of all sorts of stuff that turns up on websites..I guess its the anonymity )
    who say that the dispossessed and injured had it coming due to their karma ?

    Oh, there's some pretty wacko stuff on Buddhist sites sometimes, too.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    I_AM_THAT said:

    ...Does it also bother us when a sports figure points to the sky and gives thanks for being allowed to score a touchdown or homerun? ...

    Yes, it irks me when I watch boxing (my favorite spectator sports) and watch virtually every Latino boxer and many Black boxers do the sign of the cross before a match or thank God for victory after the match.

    No one is saying they don't have the "right" to do so. Just that it's irksome.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    caz said:

    "Is he willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then is he malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god?"

    I believe in God. I don't believe in a micromanaging God.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    caz said:



    There is no creator other then mind. The concept of an Omnipotent creator is not in fitting with reality.

    That's your reality...and a legitimate opinion.

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited October 2012
    vinlyn said:

    Citta said:

    Is it much different to those Buddhists on forums...( I have never heard it the flesh, but then that is true of all sorts of stuff that turns up on websites..I guess its the anonymity )
    who say that the dispossessed and injured had it coming due to their karma ?

    Oh, there's some pretty wacko stuff on Buddhist sites sometimes, too.

    I think karma is meant to be a positive thing. So if I am sick for a week I might say "oh gee I got rid of a lot of bad karma". But it would be tasteless for me to look upon someone with misfortune and say they deserved it due to their karma. The positive situation of karma is that it is not deterministic in the sense that the present doesn't matter. So it is a positive if you can say 'this is bad karma' 'this is samsara'.. because the whole hope is that you can become enlightened and leave samsara. So karma is not a negative at all. Well it's a reason to practice, I mean until you start practicing you don't have an effective path to remedy your situation.
    person
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    vinlyn said:

    caz said:

    "Is he willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then is he malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god?"

    I believe in God. I don't believe in a micromanaging God.

    You need to decide where to place your faith @Vinlyn
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    edited October 2012
    caz said:

    vinlyn said:

    caz said:

    "Is he willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then is he malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god?"

    I believe in God. I don't believe in a micromanaging God.

    You need to decide where to place your faith @Vinlyn
    I have. And I decided that there is no "right" religion, that we're all in this together, and that there is no need to be an exclusionist or to believe that my thought system is superior to the majority of the people in the world.

    RebeccaSBunks
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    Why is that, caz? There are lots of people who don't follow Buddhism as a religion, and manage just fine to apply principles of Buddhism with Christianity and make them work together. Whatever works for someone is valid, even if it doesn't work for you, and it doesn't invalidate what you believe, either.
  • Two children found a bag containing twelve marbles. They argued over how to divide the toys and finally went to see the Mulla. When asked to settle their disagreement, the Mulla asked whether the children wanted him to divide the marbles as a human would or as Allah would.
    The children replied, "We want it to be fair. Divide the marbles as Allah would."
    So, the Mulla counted out the marbles and gave three to one child and nine to the other.
    That is a tale from Nasrudin, the well known dervish humourist. We generate something way beyond our capacity to evaluate. Then we decide how it should be.

    The Buddha didn't bother.
    person
  • ToshTosh Veteran
    vinlyn said:

    caz said:



    There is no creator other then mind. The concept of an Omnipotent creator is not in fitting with reality.

    That's your reality...and a legitimate opinion.

    Genisis (not the pop band):

    "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

    3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day."

    Is it just me, but can't you see it? Light only exists in the mind; external to mind is electromagnetic waves - these waves enter the mind via the eye - and the brain creates light (somewhere around the back of the brain I think). So when God created light, are we not Gods in a sense, since we create light? If there were no conceptual minds, light would not exist; only electromagnetic rays. Alan Watts says that we 'make the Sun shine!'

    And who conceptualises 'heaven', 'earth', 'day', 'night', 'evening' and 'morning'? These are just labels - concepts created by a conceptual mind.

    When I read this stuff it makes me think that WE are God; we are the Creators (of our own experience) but in a very real sense.

    I think 'God' in this sense is a metaphor, like we say "Mother Nature" makes the trees grow, but no-one really thinks Mother Nature is some deity with human characteristics.

    Just my thoughts; it's late; I'm tired and my carer doesn't know I'm on the interweb.
    lobster
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    vinlyn said:

    caz said:

    vinlyn said:

    caz said:

    "Is he willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then is he malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god?"

    I believe in God. I don't believe in a micromanaging God.

    You need to decide where to place your faith @Vinlyn
    I have. And I decided that there is no "right" religion, that we're all in this together, and that there is no need to be an exclusionist or to believe that my thought system is superior to the majority of the people in the world.

    All religions that practice morale discipline and compassion have value to them. But it is not good to practice Junkshop spirituality there is a reason why this is not advised.
    lobster
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    caz said:



    ... But it is not good to practice Junkshop spirituality there is a reason why this is not advised.

    I'll email this to Websters so they can replace their current definition of elitism.

    lobsterTosh
  • Junkshop spirituality is all there is. Keep your junk in order. One day you might have to throw it out . . .
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    vinlyn said:

    caz said:



    ... But it is not good to practice Junkshop spirituality there is a reason why this is not advised.

    I'll email this to Websters so they can replace their current definition of elitism.

    :)
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    vinlyn said:

    I believe in God. I don't believe in a micromanaging God.

    It seems like a lot of people do believe in a micro-managing God. And if God doesn't micro-manage, then what use is he/she/it? ;)
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    caz said:

    But it is not good to practice Junkshop spirituality there is a reason why this is not advised.

    Though you can pick up some interesting items in junk-shops. ;)
  • It seems that the Master of Mirth and Chief of the Dervishes, Nasrudin, was once called to pontificate on the 'Nature of Allah' in the local mosque. Present were the many Imams and Doctors of the Islamic Law. Out of courtesy and because Nasrudin could not be counted on saying anything worthwhile, these illustrious guests explained and inspired the audience with their eloquence and wisdom.

    Finally it was Nasrudin's turn to explain 'the Nature of Allah'.

    "Allah ...", started Nasrudin impressively "is ..."

    Nasrudin removed and held up an ovoid mauve vegetable from the folds of his turban, " ... an aubergine."

    There was uproar at this blasphemy. When order was finally established, Nasrudin was reluctantly asked to explain his words.

    "I conclude that everyone has spoken of what they do not know or have not seen. We can all see this aubergine. Is there anyone who can deny that Allah is manifest in all things?"

    Nobody could.
    "Very well," said Nasrudin, "Allah is an aubergine."

    More stories for vegetables
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    edited October 2012

    caz said:

    But it is not good to practice Junkshop spirituality there is a reason why this is not advised.

    Though you can pick up some interesting items in junk-shops. ;)
    True, I do like to have a look through antique Junk shops but it is only for furniture. ;)
  • ZeroZero Veteran


    It seems like a lot of people do believe in a micro-managing God. And if God doesn't micro-manage, then what use is he/she/it? ;)

    It seems the definition of an omnipresent and omnipotent god would compel micromanagement - otherwise it would be a hierarchy.
  • Look, I dont want to introduce any more opportunities for papanca...joke..but, the God that is rejected by some western Buddhists has never existed in Eastern Christianity anyway..the prevailing view in Eastern Christianity is Panentheism....note not Pantheism which states that God is in everything ...but Panentheism which states that everything is in God...which sounds to me a lot like the Nirmanakaya.
    I thought I would just throw that out there....
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    Why are another persons beliefs annoying? Why does it matter that they believe their home being saved is gods blessings?
    OneLifeForm
  • "Caz said:
    But it is not good to practice Junkshop spirituality there is a reason why this is not advised."

    I agree- I think we have to pick a path and follow it to the end. Once you're there, only then can you truly know you never needed one:)
    caz
  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran
    Where I grew up, I always heard, "Our God is a jealous God." I always thought it was so strange that people would ascribe some of the lowest human emotions to God, but I think it's an offshoot from people comparing God to a father. Fathers can be angry and jealous and micromanaging and all those things... apparently, it's just hard for some people to think outside of what they know of human behavior.

    But personally, I'd take a micromanaging God over fire and brimstone jealous God. If he is a jealous God, we're all in for a big whoopin' in Heaven.
    lobster
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    seeker242 said:

    Why are another persons beliefs annoying? Why does it matter that they believe their home being saved is gods blessings?

    That's a fair question.

    If a member of the KKK came to your door and started discussing that Blacks were inferior and should be eliminated from American life...would you be annoyed?

    There are still Nazis and Neo-Nazis. When they are parading down the street, does it bother you?

    They may believe what they wish. That's freedom of thought. But when one begins to disseminate their beliefs...which Facebook certainly does...one is expecting people to react. If they weren't expecting a reaction, they'd keep their beliefs within.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    vinlyn said:

    I believe in God. I don't believe in a micromanaging God.

    It seems like a lot of people do believe in a micro-managing God. And if God doesn't micro-manage, then what use is he/she/it? ;)
    I'm going to make a pretty big leap here, but this is just an analogy, I didn't think I was God.

    As a principal, I had to decide when to become involved in various things happening in the school. I had the legal power to insert myself into virtually everything that happened in that school. But, I selected my battles so to speak.

    For example, some teachers would say that an administrator had to control discipline in their classroom. I said no, the teacher is responsible for all but extreme cases of discipline in their classroom. Some wanted the principal to control gum-chewing throughout the school. I said no, if you want to have a no-gum rule in your classroom that's fine, but we are not going to have a school-wide no-gum policy. I had the power, but didn't decide to use my power to micromanage.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    seeker242 said:

    Why are another persons beliefs annoying? Why does it matter that they believe their home being saved is gods blessings?

    Seeker, do you not react to people stating opinions here on this forum?

  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    vinlyn said:

    seeker242 said:

    Why are another persons beliefs annoying? Why does it matter that they believe their home being saved is gods blessings?

    That's a fair question.
    If a member of the KKK came to your door and started discussing that Blacks were inferior and should be eliminated from American life...would you be annoyed?
    Not really. I would pity them, not be annoyed by them. I would still probably close the door in their face, lol. But I doubt I would be personally annoyed just by their words.
    There are still Nazis and Neo-Nazis. When they are parading down the street, does it bother you?
    Not personally, no.
    Seeker, do you not react to people stating opinions here on this forum?
    Not for ones I consider to be harmless. What harm can come from someone saying they believe god saved their house? Sure, if someone is out killing people in gods name, that is a different story as that is not harmless. But just posting on facebook, it's not like they are out there killing people or something. I just don't see what the issue is.




  • Lets laugh at the Christians so we can all feel better about ourselves :)

    Buddhism is all about laughing other people's views :)
    Citta
  • vinlyn said:

    Now before someone gets in a dither, remember, I consider myself sorta half-Christian and half-Buddhist.

    But it just irks me when a Christian says or writes something like I just found from a friend of mine on Facebook: "Survived Frankenstorm- able to keep electricity and no damage. God's blessing!"

    So let's see, God blessed you folks in northern Virginia but decided to make people in the NYC and NJ areas suffer flooded homes, wind damage, no electricity, isolation, etc.

    I may believe in God, but I certainly don't believe God makes that kind of decision.

    You talk alot with an knowledgable tone. How about you actually have some right views and a principal for your life before trying to influence other people?
  • @Vinlyn the movie was The Nature Of Existence (Roger Nygard) and some of the higher ups in the British Church - might be wrong about it being the archbishop - talk about this exact thing. It's a great little documentary, so uplifting, if you have the 2 hours to spare I totally recommend it even though they only spend about 30 seconds talking about this thing.
  • Each individual acts according to their own karmic standing.

    That is all that they can do.

    For me, I am a Buddhist, it is what I can see works for me right now in every way.

    So not long ago I was really nervous about taking an exam to obtain some certification that I had went to school for.

    I was extremely nervous.

    A lady that I work with told me that she would pray for me in Jesus' name.

    That made me feel a lot better, I don't know if she prayed or not but I know that just that alone really helped as technically I shouldn't have passed that exam.. the hands on part at least.

    I made a pretty damned big mistake and you are normally supposed to score 100 percent on the hands on portion of the exam.

    If you realize you make a mistake before you complete a clinical then you can go back and correct it.

    I could not remember if what I was doing was wrong or not, I drew a blank in my mind.

    I found out after that I totally goofed.

    She passed me anyways though. Some of the evaluators, I have heard from many, are very mean.

    It was an infinite amount of causes and conditions coming together to create that but the fact that the lady at my work said she would pray for me was so wonderful to hear.

    I don't care what faith anyone is or what they believe.

    What she was doing was wanting another to succeed.

    That is beautiful.


    The main reason you are all here is because of Shakyamuni Buddha.

    Next time your genitals work in expelling waste, say thanks.

    Next time you eat, say thanks.

    Next time you are aware of anything, say thanks.


    Many people, many Buddhists want to act like "they" did something, or "they" got to where they are.

    That is the biggest load of shit ever.


    At least the people thanking God that their homes didn't get ruined by Sandy are humble and realize that it isn't their own egocentric behavior that prevented their homes from being destroyed.

    RebeccaSJeffrey
  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran
    The main reason you are all here is because of Shakyamuni Buddha.

    @OneLifeForm - do you mean here on Earth or here on this website?
    OneLifeForm
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