Friend of a Friend

lobster

As some of you know we have friends in other religions. For example the Fiends [sic] of God, the dervishes.
http://www.chishti.ru/
I have on occasion hung out with these heretic Buddhists. Should we be friendly with other whirls? Will we be entranced by their wailing and poetry? Should we follow them on Face Book? What happens if we end up Quran teened?

la-ilaha-illa-allah :wave:

Wisdom23

Sinples treat everyone with kindness and compassion. If you befriend a jew and find judausm more appealing to you than surely thats a goid thing as you may find mental piece in this faith.

Hope this helps

much love

lobster

Thanks Wisdom23

I was made an Honorary Jew but I am bad at it, I am not even kosher, oy vey!
My escapades with Sufism continues . . .
http://kirpalsingh.org/Booklets/Sayings_of_Sufi_Masters.pdf

Zero

quaran-teened made me laugh out loud... very good.

There is much to suggest that sufis are practicing something far older than Islam.

For example, the Masnavi in original farsi is a compellingly cryptogramic collection of seemingly unconnected allegories, all framed within the context of Islamic discourse but so loosely as to point itself to other sources - there are many fascinating contradictions even within individual stanzas - on one level, it is a collection of themes and thoughts of the time but collected within an Islamic framework, possibly I suspect to preserve it in as many guises as possible rather than due to it being rooted whole heartedly in Islam.

There is a body of academic opinion that considers that Islam / the quaran developed from pre-existing systems such as sufism which in turn originate from older practices.

For my part, I feel a deep sense of familiarity with the issues faced by sufis.

lobster

When I became a Moslem (I have led a decadent and depraved existence), it was really to study Sufism. All I got was washing (ablutions), incessant prayers and excellent chicken curry. The Sufis I met at the time were pious and friendly but I found the treatment of women hard going.
Later I met others less Islamic . . . Anyway will be rejoining some dervish internet groups, so that they can pray for me (somebody has to).

Allah Akbar aka Om Ya Ha Hum . . . Peace Be With You
http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/study/islam/general/relation_between_buddhism_sufism.html

Zero

Quite apart from the distinct branches of Islam, sufism itself is an umbrella label that encompasses a varied cultural mix - most often what is presented is not sufism but rather some form of modified Islamic practice - there was once a person on this site who identified herself with sufism and described it as 'liberal islam', which true sufism is not.

There are very few true sufis - also there is a difference between live/developing sufis and those following a past Sheikh - the former are closer to the true sufi.

Dervishes are a slightly different matter again - though they are often linked to sufism, the two are not interchangeable.

Chances are, unless you're born into an established Sufi line (of which very very few exist) it will be challenging locating a real sufi or rather one with the correct heritage and knowledge to claim that they are sufi - only a true sufi will be able to provide you with the cyphers required to consider the esoteric and coded language of the transmissions.

lobster

The Dalai Lama once said,
'This Buddhism . . . is a matter of the Mind'
. . . and he pointed to his Heart.

Many Buddhist are very cerebral (just an observation)
. . . how do we enter a transmission and interchange with the heart centered and openly dervish?

Khunuk ân kas ke chu mâ shud, hame taslîm u rezâ shud
Geruv-e 'ishq u junûn shud, guhar-e bahr-e safâ shud.

Happy the one who has become like us;
who has become all surrender and contenment;
Who has become the pledge of love and madness;
who has become a jewel in the sea of purity.
Rumi

Zero

lobster said:

Khunuk ân kas ke chu mâ shud, hame taslîm u rezâ shud
Geruv-e 'ishq u junûn shud, guhar-e bahr-e safâ shud.

Happy the one who has become like us;
who has become all surrender and contenment;
Who has become the pledge of love and madness;
who has become a jewel in the sea of purity.
Rumi

The translation doesnt run well with the original text.

Khoonak un-kas ke che mu shod... is quite far from 'Happy the one who has become like us...'

or rather, the original is encoded and by translating, loses the encoding, symmetry and various levels of meaning.

Your conclusions may lead you in the opposite direction - as this was the intention in encoding it in the first place.

lobster

I fully accept this is only one translation
and likely incomplete as you say.

However we can start with the mundane:
“Forget safety.
Live where you fear to live.
Destroy your reputation.
Be notorious.” Rumi

Such abandon :clap:

Zero

Not so much incomplete as probably not intended to be translated and then considered outside of the framework from which it was forged...

The risk is that one finds what one is looking for! sometimes an invisible prison....

lobster

Good points.

I also feel some material is applicable in a variety of guises and languages for example the humour of Nasrudin . . .
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Sufism/Nasrudin

Zero

yes - the humour of mullah nasradin proverbs are legendary - some are linked to sufi doctrines, some to islamic, some are just cultural - there is a lot of oral tradition there - their use in more modern times are more akin to quoting from shakespear than say from the bible.

The masnavi though is more akin to a technical manual which goes far beyond the simplicity and charm of a nasradin proverb - what is translated commonly are excerpts from parts that seem to flow and work together but usually are very disjointed focuses.

That said, it is just the one message that they convey - so I suppose if you get that then you're alright with the entire works as they all seek to express the same thing but in the different ways that it may be expressed - part of the concept of a living book in that it mirrors life in its multitude of expressions.

karasti

@lobster if you pay attention, many Tibetans and others refer to the head, or mind while touching their heart area. In their cultures there isn't nearly the separate of mind and heart that we suffer from in the western world.

lobster

Yes indeed many thanks, neurones have been found in the heart - about 40 000, the Greeks used to think with their lungs, Egyptians with their stomachs. In martial arts we use 'body memory' to bypass normal brain reaction times. All emotions and such physical processing is brain based . . .
Mind, Body, Spirit
awareness is brain based . . . unless we have a multidimensional quantum soul to be discovered reincarnating . . .

karasti

It's quite fascinating to watch science start to catch up with "proof" of what people have known all along. A lady in our sangha shared that about the heart and neurons just last weekend. Interesting stuff.

lobster

The heart section here might be of interest
http://www.fmbr.org/papers/sci-sufi.php

This is a very orthodox expression of Sufism for the Islamically inclined (not many here no doubt)
http://pages.britishlibrary.net/edjason/friends/