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The 5 precepts

TheEccentricTheEccentric Hampshire, UK Veteran
This doesn't really apply to me much because I'm not really old enough to even want to break most of them but if you do break them do you get excommunicated or not considered a "true" Buddhist. Does anybody here blatantly ignore any of the precepts?
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Comments

  • I ignore the drinking one.

    Some people will think I'm a shit Buddhist, but let 'em :)

    I've never heard of a Buddhist apostate, at least, not in the sense that people who leave the religion are blacklisted.
  • Blatantly ignore? I'm not sure how that would go. People don't have to take the precept vows to be Buddhist. You just have to take refuge in the Buddha in some form.
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    It really depends on a lot of things. I maybe once or twice a month, have a small glass of wine with my dinner. Some people have a problem with this, I do not. The main point of the precept is to not allow beverages or drugs not needed for health reasons to impact your thinking, mindfulness and practice. For me, 4 ounces of wine does not have an impact, and it just goes well with the pork chop I usually get. So, there's another precept some say I break, but my teacher does not have a problem with meat eating and neither do I.

    So, do I "blatantly ignore" precepts? From some people's perspective, I do. From mine and my teachers, I do not, and I put more weight on what my teacher has to say than a bunch of people online, most of whom are a different tradition than me anyhow. You have to do what is right for you. But the challenge comes in with your ability to look honestly at why you choose to do things if you feel they are against the precepts.
  • I can only speak for my sangha, but I don't think you would be excommunicated unless you are doing something that would hurt the sangha like showing up to meditation very drunk or sexually harassing the other sangha members.
  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
    edited December 2012

    This doesn't really apply to me much because I'm not really old enough to even want to break most of them but if you do break them do you get excommunicated or not considered a "true" Buddhist. Does anybody here blatantly ignore any of the precepts?

    The five precepts
    1. I undertake the training rule to abstain from taking life. Pāṇātipātā veramaṇī sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi.
    2. I undertake the training rule to abstain from taking what is not given. Adinnādānā veramaṇī sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi.
    3. I undertake the training rule to abstain from sexual misconduct. Kāmesumicchācāra veramaṇī sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi.
    4. I undertake the training rule to abstain from false speech. Musāvādā veramaṇī sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi.
    5. I undertake the training rule to abstain from fermented drink that causes heedlessness. Surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānā veramaṇī sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi.[6]

    I explaine this often to people new to buddhism but as you can see.. these are training rules :).. they are not commandments to which you must follow or else you will have to confess and go to hell! if you break a rule you observe yourself breaking it and observe why you did it and resolve to put forth effort in abandoning the unskillful act from here on.

    there is no guilt in buddhism.. no confession in buddhism( except for monastics), there is no such thing as excommunication either.. this isn't like the church where you belong to some organized body.


    the precepts are very grey, not black and white.. so people interpret this in different ways, especially the 5th precept refraining from taking drinks or drugs that cause heedlessness. I personally have not had any alcohol since taking on the precepts on Vesak of 2008 and I don't miss it one bit. Other people are not ready to do this. The more of the precepts that you can follow the better obviously but following some is better then none.
    CinorjerMaryAnne
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    RebeccaS said:

    I ignore the drinking one.

    Some people will think I'm a shit Buddhist, but let 'em :)

    I've never heard of a Buddhist apostate, at least, not in the sense that people who leave the religion are blacklisted.

    Thank you. It is nice to see somebody just say that they ignore one, rather than hem and haw and try to minimize them. Nice to see the honesty.

  • A list of "do not do's" has natural limits, including most obviously a lack of direction as to what you should do, but they are a helpful guide if you've gone off the rails.
  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran
    I also follow the precepts but have a beer or two every night or a glass of wine. Getting drunk or stoned is no longer an option though. That would "break" the precept.

    As an aside, I also include "sensual" misconduct as part of the third precept i.e. don't over indulge in food, TV, music etc.
    BhikkhuJayasara
  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
    Bunks said:

    I also follow the precepts but have a beer or two every night or a glass of wine. Getting drunk or stoned is no longer an option though. That would "break" the precept.

    As an aside, I also include "sensual" misconduct as part of the third precept i.e. don't over indulge in food, TV, music etc.

    ah the old sensual misconduct.. often overlooked ;)
  • are you old enough to tell lies?
    buddhism is all about the consequences of your actions.
    if you tell lies all the time, what will be the consequencces?

    This doesn't really apply to me much because I'm not really old enough to even want to break most of them but if you do break them do you get excommunicated or not considered a "true" Buddhist. Does anybody here blatantly ignore any of the precepts?

  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran

    This doesn't really apply to me much because I'm not really old enough to even want to break most of them but if you do break them do you get excommunicated or not considered a "true" Buddhist. Does anybody here blatantly ignore any of the precepts?

    I didn't take the Pratimoksha vows till I was 21 they can be taken formally by request to your Resident teacher, Its good to abide by them even if we haven't had them yet. you can only break them once you have formally taken them.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran

    Does nybody here blatantly ignore any of the precepts?

    No, because I know deep down they are good for me....

    :p
    Bunks
  • 1. I undertake the training rule to abstain from taking life. Pāṇātipātā veramaṇī sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi.
    I eat meat and fish, garden. I am a life taker. If I find any demons, I am happy to kill them whenever possible.
    . . . so failed that one . . .
    2. I undertake the training rule to abstain from taking what is not given. Adinnādānā veramaṇī sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi.
    Oh yes I will steal any karma I can even though it is not possible, I will steal your time and your equanimity . . .
    . . . more failure . . .
    3. I undertake the training rule to abstain from sexual misconduct. Kāmesumicchācāra veramaṇī sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi.
    I lust after every woman I see. So gorgeous.
    oh well . . . no success there . . .
    4. I undertake the training rule to abstain from false speech. Musāvādā veramaṇī sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi.
    I lie every time I open my mouth, which is rarely closed . . .
    . . . not doing very well . . .
    5. I undertake the training rule to abstain from fermented drink that causes heedlessness. Surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānā veramaṇī sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi
    Hope to get drunk at Christmas . . .

    . . . well that's it then . . . straight to the hell realms for me . . . I hope we have a barbecue . . .
    . . . look forward to telling the demon realms the effects of breaking precepts . . . :clap:
    Bunks
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    RebeccaS said:

    ISome people will think I'm a shit Buddhist, but let 'em :)

    Say 4 "Hail Marys" and 4 "Our Fathers" :D
    lobsterBhikkhuJayasaraRebeccaSStormer
  • Once more in to the breech...The precepts are not commandments..they are training wheels like the ones on your bike before you are confident enough to do without...the difference being that these training wheels may well be necessary for a lifetime for most of us.
    Addressing your question I drink about two three glasses of wine a week and may be two beers also.
    Which a Theravadin might tell you is a blatant ignoring of the precept..but which many Mahayanists see as a middle path.
    BhikkhuJayasara
  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
    edited December 2012
    lobster said:

    1. I undertake the training rule to abstain from taking life. Pāṇātipātā veramaṇī sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi.
    I eat meat and fish, garden. I am a life taker. If I find any demons, I am happy to kill them whenever possible.
    . . . so failed that one . . .
    2. I undertake the training rule to abstain from taking what is not given. Adinnādānā veramaṇī sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi.
    Oh yes I will steal any karma I can even though it is not possible, I will steal your time and your equanimity . . .
    . . . more failure . . .
    3. I undertake the training rule to abstain from sexual misconduct. Kāmesumicchācāra veramaṇī sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi.
    I lust after every woman I see. So gorgeous.
    oh well . . . no success there . . .
    4. I undertake the training rule to abstain from false speech. Musāvādā veramaṇī sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi.
    I lie every time I open my mouth, which is rarely closed . . .
    . . . not doing very well . . .
    5. I undertake the training rule to abstain from fermented drink that causes heedlessness. Surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānā veramaṇī sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi
    Hope to get drunk at Christmas . . .

    . . . well that's it then . . . straight to the hell realms for me . . . I hope we have a barbecue . . .
    . . . look forward to telling the demon realms the effects of breaking precepts . . . :clap:

    ya know what your worst offense in all of this is? guilt( being attached to your past actions) and negativity(attaching fear to the future) :)... practice even through many failures.. the buddhas last words were " Appamadena Sampadetha" - Strive diligently.
  • ya know what your worst offence in all of this is?
    As an unbuddhist and human, I feel no guilt about attempted normality. Also I have no fear of the hell realms.
    My worst offence is not caring about precepts as a form of moral and social Straitjacket.
    http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/14842/have-you-ever-mindfully-broken-a-precept-to-serve-a-greater-good :wave:

    Don't think I will ever make the grade . . .
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    No, there is no "excommunication" for Buddhist laypersons concerning the vows. If that was the case, then pretty much everyone here would be forever barred from being a Buddhist. :lol: When a layperson breaks them, there is no one but yourself there watching over you. There aren't any guilt trips in Buddhism. Not to see their drawbacks or to think they are not a big deal is a mistake though. When you break the vow that you took, you simply renew the vow and continue on practicing the best you can. Everyday is a new day to renew your vows. Some people even go so far as to officially take them again if they feel they have broken them. This is allowed by most sanghas I would say. Human beings by definition are imperfect and Buddhism acknowledges this and allows for it. But, just because laypersons breaking precepts is allowed does not mean it's not unskillful to do it.

    For monks though, there is a similar type of thing where if the monk violates certain rules, etc. they are "disrobed". Which is not exactly the same as "excommunication" but its along the same lines.

    Some people might think you are not a "true Buddhist". But I would not pay attention to these people because these are the people who think they have never broken any of these vows themselves. Yea right, LOL! Even the highest masters have broken vows before. Of course they don't anymore but they did at one point.

    However, just because you are young, I would not say they don't apply.. It's never good to kill stuff, lie about stuff and steal stuff, regardless of how old you are. :)
    BhikkhuJayasaralobsterJason
  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
    one of my mottos is "vows are meant to be broken".. meaning you cannot , through force of will, vow to never break a precept.. you naturally fall into the precepts through practice and coming to recognize that these actions are unskillful and not beneficial to myself and others.
    lobster
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    Citta said:

    Which a Theravadin might tell you is a blatant ignoring of the precept..but which many Mahayanists see as a middle path.

    Sure, there are different approaches in different traditions. Though in the Mahayana there is the sīla pāramitā ( virtue ) as one of the 6 perfections, and of course the Bodhisattva ideal which can be seen as perfect altruism.

  • Citta said:

    Which a Theravadin might tell you is a blatant ignoring of the precept..but which many Mahayanists see as a middle path.

    Sure, there are different approaches in different traditions. Though in the Mahayana there is the sīla pāramitā ( virtue ) as one of the 6 perfections, and of course the Bodhisattva ideal which can be seen as perfect altruism.

    I'll drink to that.
    DairyLama
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Since everyone is being so damned honest, I'll post on this topic once again...if for no other reason than for some of you to note that there's another sincere viewpoint out there.

    They're not "just" training rules. And they're not training you as some sort of mental /emotional technique (chess would be equally effective in that regard).

    They're training you not to murder. They're training you not to steal. They're training you not to lie. They're training you not to be sexually irresponsible. They're training you not to partake in intoxicating substances.

    And the lack of consistency on this forum about Precepts is bothersome, as well. For example, a couple of times in the distant past I suggested that the rule that monks not eat after noon be abolished for health reasons and because there is no truly significant justification for the rule. And I was cut down pretty quickly by members saying that oh no, you couldn't eliminate or modify that rule...and yet some of those say members drink alcohol and/or take drugs.

    I know some of you are not going to like this post, but you keep having your say on this topic...over and over again. So I'm going to bring up the other view.

    And since we're being so honest here, I personally think that the reason that quite a few people minimize the Precepts -- or in some cases certain Precepts -- is because some people just want to do what they enjoy doing (e.g., DON'T EAT A HAMBURGER, but let's go down to Hop's Bar).

    BhikkhuJayasaramusiclobster
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    The precepts mimic enlightened action.
    The precepts are aids to staying on the path to the cessation of suffering. The breadth, width and subtlety of what they cover makes them in the absolute, both unbreakable and unkeepable. A practitioner just follows them the best they can.

    Eventually one will see that their kaleidoscopic nature demonstrates that no one precept can be broken without some transgression of all the others just as the keeping of one will assist in supporting the rest.

    Those interested in traversing the Buddha's path use the precepts to show themselves where their behaviour will lead them off the path.

    Spiritual children will see them as curtailments and disciplinary rules.
    Spiritual adults recognaise them for the masters they are.
    BhikkhuJayasaralobster
  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
    vinlyn said:

    Since everyone is being so damned honest, I'll post on this topic once again...if for no other reason than for some of you to note that there's another sincere viewpoint out there.

    They're not "just" training rules. And they're not training you as some sort of mental /emotional technique (chess would be equally effective in that regard).

    They're training you not to murder. They're training you not to steal. They're training you not to lie. They're training you not to be sexually irresponsible. They're training you not to partake in intoxicating substances.

    And the lack of consistency on this forum about Precepts is bothersome, as well. For example, a couple of times in the distant past I suggested that the rule that monks not eat after noon be abolished for health reasons and because there is no truly significant justification for the rule. And I was cut down pretty quickly by members saying that oh no, you couldn't eliminate or modify that rule...and yet some of those say members drink alcohol and/or take drugs.

    I know some of you are not going to like this post, but you keep having your say on this topic...over and over again. So I'm going to bring up the other view.

    And since we're being so honest here, I personally think that the reason that quite a few people minimize the Precepts -- or in some cases certain Precepts -- is because some people just want to do what they enjoy doing (e.g., DON'T EAT A HAMBURGER, but let's go down to Hop's Bar).

    The Buddha did say the sangha could change or remove the lesser rules after his death
    Bunks
  • TheEccentricTheEccentric Hampshire, UK Veteran
    hermitwin said:

    are you old enough to tell lies?
    buddhism is all about the consequences of your actions.
    if you tell lies all the time, what will be the consequencces?

    This doesn't really apply to me much because I'm not really old enough to even want to break most of them but if you do break them do you get excommunicated or not considered a "true" Buddhist. Does anybody here blatantly ignore any of the precepts?

    I said most of them, not all of them. I'm not old enough to want too drink alcohol, kill or have sexual misconduct.

    lobster
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    how said:

    The precepts mimic enlightened action.
    The precepts are aids to staying on the path to the cessation of suffering. The breadth, width and subtlety of what they cover makes them in the absolute, both unbreakable and unkeepable. A practitioner just follows them the best they can.

    Eventually one will see that their kaleidoscopic nature demonstrates that no one precept can be broken without some transgression of all the others just as the keeping of one will assist in supporting the rest.

    Those interested in traversing the Buddha's path use the precepts to show themselves where their behaviour will lead them off the path.

    Spiritual children will see them as curtailments and disciplinary rules.
    Spiritual adults recognaise them for the masters they are.

    A very thoughtful post.

  • CittaCitta Veteran
    edited December 2012
    And Vajrayana practitioners will continue to attend Tsok Pujas where participating in alcohol is mandatory.
    There is no single pan- Buddhist view of the issues involved.
    Not even when contemplating the first precept..I was present when one of the very seniormost Tibetan Teachers said that if you became aware that a terrorist was about to detonate an atomic bomb then your Buddhist duty is to stop him . even if that meant killing him.
    Its a wonderful thing to have an ecumenical Buddhist forum..but absolute statements will only ever be consistent to a particular tradition.
    The Dzogchen tradition within which I practice is authentic and ancient and has no hard and fast rule about alcohol ( for example ) at all. The same is also true I believe of many Zen lineages as well as the Nyingma lineage in Vajrayana..
    lobster
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Yes, @Citta, I agree with you that there is no single pan-Buddhist view of most issues. And each of us is speaking here -- regardless of the issue -- about our personal view of Buddhist principles. And you will not see me saying that a Precept should never be broken. I personally agree with the terrorist scenario you mentioned, but that is much different than saying, "Oh I guess I'll go out and kill someone". I have friends who have been prescribed a glass of red wine in the evening by their cardiologists, which is different than saying, "Hey, let's go down to the bar and have a few drinks." Okay, your practice doesn't seem to have the alcohol Precept. That's fine for you. I disagree with it. I'm not condemning you for it. I'm disagreeing with you about it.
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    edited December 2012
    Actually it does not have any of the precepts per se at all. My earliest Buddhist instruction was in a Theravadin setting...so I am familiar with that modality.
    But Rinzai Zen and some branches of Soto Zen as well as Dzogchen do not merely have a different interpretation of the Precepts, they do not use them at all.
    Their approach to Sila.. ( morality , ethics ) takes its position from the intrinsic nature of Buddhadhatu or Dharmadhatu..not from external precepts.
    Bunks
  • RebeccaS said:

    ISome people will think I'm a shit Buddhist, but let 'em :)

    Say 4 "Hail Marys" and 4 "Our Fathers" :D
    I always say 'Hail Mary Jane' ... oops!
  • Precepts, like the 10 commandments, were given to us by a much more evolved being to help guide us to happiness. Keeping them results in a greater level of happiness, or at least, steers us away from more suffering.

    As someone who ignores the fifth precept, I can tell you that I suffer from ignoring it. (Though a bacon sandwich and an old Polish hangover cure do help somewhat :p )

    They seem less constrictive and more constructive as you get a bit older and see that they're not there to hold us back or to make life boring, they actually contribute to a much brighter experience of life.

    You begin to want to live your life by the precepts because ignoring them simply doesn't make sense.
    lobster
  • Just curious ... could it be that the precepts don't make us enlightened at all? Maybe, precepts are 'evidence' that we are enlightened. For instance, as long as we're tempted by something we can rest assured that we are not enlightened. But if temptations slowly lose their grip on us, maybe that's proof that we are becoming enlightened. So precepts may not be the cause of enlightenment; they could be hints that we are on the way.
  • RebeccaSRebeccaS Veteran
    edited December 2012
    Not stealing and not harming people doesn't make you enlightened, it just makes you a reasonably decent human being.

    That sounded harsher than I meant it to, sorry.

    I just mean that following the precepts isn't a big deal. It's not like you're being asked to hold your breath in a shark tank for two hours; keeping them isn't some major feat. For the most part it's just common decency.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    music said:

    Just curious ... could it be that the precepts don't make us enlightened at all? Maybe, precepts are 'evidence' that we are enlightened. For instance, as long as we're tempted by something we can rest assured that we are not enlightened. But if temptations slowly lose their grip on us, maybe that's proof that we are becoming enlightened. So precepts may not be the cause of enlightenment; they could be hints that we are on the way.

    Interesting.

  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    Anyone see some value as to whether a being was enlightened
    or just in accord with enlightenment?

    I'll be in the corner counting how many New buddhists can dance on the head of a pin.
    lobster
  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
    vinlyn said:

    Yes, @Citta, I agree with you that there is no single pan-Buddhist view of most issues. And each of us is speaking here -- regardless of the issue -- about our personal view of Buddhist principles. And you will not see me saying that a Precept should never be broken. I personally agree with the terrorist scenario you mentioned, but that is much different than saying, "Oh I guess I'll go out and kill someone". I have friends who have been prescribed a glass of red wine in the evening by their cardiologists, which is different than saying, "Hey, let's go down to the bar and have a few drinks." Okay, your practice doesn't seem to have the alcohol Precept. That's fine for you. I disagree with it. I'm not condemning you for it. I'm disagreeing with you about it.

    if the alcohol is prescribed then that is considered medicine.. Similar to how someone could use marijuana for medical purposes. you can also use a percocet for medical or abuse reasons.

    as for the terrorist bomb scenario, killing is killing no matter what.. But I think most anyone would take that kamma on to save everyone else.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    Citta said:

    Actually it does not have any of the precepts per se at all. My earliest Buddhist instruction was in a Theravadin setting...so I am familiar with that modality.
    But Rinzai Zen and some branches of Soto Zen as well as Dzogchen do not merely have a different interpretation of the Precepts, they do not use them at all.
    Their approach to Sila.. ( morality , ethics ) takes its position from the intrinsic nature of Buddhadhatu or Dharmadhatu..not from external precepts.

    Would you know which schools? I personally have never heard of any zen school, Rinzai, Soto or otherwise, that does not use any of the precepts. Rinzai priests take vows as well as Rinzai laypersons. Same goes with Soto, Soen and Thien. All the ones I have ever heard of all have precepts.

  • CittaCitta Veteran
    edited December 2012
    I have no personal experience of Zen..but friends who are members of Rinzai and Soto sanghas tell me that they do not formally take or recite precepts.
    Certainly in Dzogchen there is no parallel process.
    Let me be clear..I am not arguing against the use of the precepts, as I said my first instruction was in the Theravada and I took the precepts and Refuge.
    I am pointing out that there is no single approach to them..from the absolute teetotal stance of many Theravadin teachers on the one hand to the Dzogchen View on the other where what is paramount is the introduction to ones Primordial Mind by the actions of a Guru and a gradualist approach is eschewed .
  • There are actually many more vows in the bodhisattva vow and the tantric vows.
  • music said:

    Just curious ... could it be that the precepts don't make us enlightened at all? Maybe, precepts are 'evidence' that we are enlightened. For instance, as long as we're tempted by something we can rest assured that we are not enlightened. But if temptations slowly lose their grip on us, maybe that's proof that we are becoming enlightened. So precepts may not be the cause of enlightenment; they could be hints that we are on the way.

    They are both a means to an end, and the end itself. Realizing the nature of reality does bring upon those changes inadvertently, but if we have a hard time realizing, those changes can be used to coax us in the direction we seek to go. Some of us wake up from the strange dream we've lived prior in an instant, others it takes time to truly understand. It depends on our willingness to let go of illusion, to let go of attachment.
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    edited December 2012
    Jeffrey said:

    There are actually many more vows in the bodhisattva vow and the tantric vows.

    Which are also largely eschewed in Dzogchen ..depending on the teacher and lineage.
    A whole new Dzogchen centred website has recently been set up by followers of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, one of the best known Dzogchen teachers current, largely by Dzogchen students who no longer identify with any Buddhist position.
    Indeed some of ChNN's students are Christian monks and nuns.

  • Again..to be clear. I am not advocating a particular position vis a vis the precepts..I am just pointing out that there is a tendency to assume that one particular model is the Buddhist default position..and as with much in life..its just not that simple.
    JeffreyMaryAnne
  • My teacher studied mahamudra and I believe she took the Bodhisattva vows. Mahamudra is very similar to Dzogchen, both are higher tantras.

    Just curious but do you have a link to the sanhga that doesn't teach vows? My sangha is in the Shantideva tradition and in that tradition there are vows as far as I am aware. When I asked my teacher what to do in the eightfold prior to right view and she said to uphold the 10 skilfull actions and not commit the 10 unskilful actions. Maybe @taiyaki also has some info on Dzogchen?
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    I think the key is to be open to the idea that you very well may change. I may very well evolve in my practice to a point I no longer eat meat, only eat what I can grow myself, stop driving a car because of all the animals I kill doing it and walk barefoot all the time looking at the ground hoping to kill fewer ants. I may not. Most likely, I will adapt some of that and not all of it. It doesn't make me more or less a Buddhist than people who adopt fewer or more of those things. I may very well eventually not drink any alcohol at all. For me, having a glass of wine once or twice a month is quite a bit different than the 5 long island iced teas I used to have every Thursday night after work.

    The bottom line is, my practice is my practice. If I drink 5 iced teas on Thursday, one glass of wine on my date nights with the husband, or none at all, how, exactly, does it affect your practice? It doesn't. We all simply do the best we can and as long as you are open to your best changing suddenly, or over time, then terrific. If you are going to drink a 6 pack every night and say "screw that precept, I'll never stop drinking" then that's a different problem, if you ask me.

    We all have our sticking points, and I think it's unfair to call someone out for them saying they might be vegetarian but have not 100% stopped drinking. Because not all the precepts are as easy for some as for others to attain, it's just something we work towards. Not something we suddenly read and can do that day. It's a work in progress, it's a practice, and that's how it should be if you ask me.

    At least we think about it, consider it, talk about it. The best thing is only to worry about yourself. None of us here are perfect in our practice. If we were, we wouldn't need to be here.
    Cole_MaryAnnelobsterblack_tea
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    edited December 2012
    Jeffrey Dzogchen is not
    Jeffrey said:

    My teacher studied mahamudra and I believe she took the Bodhisattva vows. Mahamudra is very similar to Dzogchen, both are higher tantras.

    ust curious but do you have a link to the sanhga that doesn't teach vows? My sangha is in the Shantideva tradition and in that tradition there are vows as far as I am aware. When I asked my teacher what to do in the eightfold prior to right view and she said to uphold the 10 skilfull actions and not commit the 10 unskilful actions. Maybe @taiyaki also has some info on Dzogchen?

    " Dzogchen is not sutra and not tantra. neither is it associated with any particular religion or culture.it is the Path of the Self Liberated State . "
    Chogyal Namkhai Norbu.

    There are limits to what can be publically talked about in terms of Dzogchen practice...this is not coyness or being mysterious...Dzogchen can only be understood in relationship with a realised teacher.
    However anyone interested can google The Dzogchen Community. which will provide links.
  • Thanks for the info Citta. From a historical perspective Nagarjuna was also a major reformer of ethics in addition to his ideas which influenced all of Tibetan Buddhism. So historically it would be normal to feel attraction to vows and so forth. But I guess not all sanghas concern themselves. Are you from a nyingma or gelukpa tradition?
  • In Dzogchen the only samaya is the natural state.

    Been studying and practicing Mahamudra as well and it seems its basically the same samaya.

    Traditional Hinayana vows are taken if that is necessary medicine for a certain sickness of an individual practitioner. If not necessary, then one doesn't limit themselves and goes for the real meaning.

    That is what I've heard.

    Though I really don't bother about these things. =]
    robotJeffrey
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    edited December 2012
    @Citta
    Soto Zen..got precepts coming out our ears. Need to talk to your friends again.
    Most of their laity take the 10 precepts.
  • how said:

    @Citta

    Soto Zen..got precepts coming out our ears. Need to talk to your friends again.
    Most of their laity take the 10 precepts.

    Actually if you wanted you could have a conversation with a small selection of the online ones on Zen Forum International or on Jundo Cohens site, or Brad Warners.
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