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Pope Benedict XVI resigns
Brian
Detroit, MI Moderator
Today Pope Benedict announced his resignation, to the apparent surprise of even his "inner circle".
This led to a conversation with my roommate, also a former Catholic. We both commented on the global decline of the Catholic Church and speculated that a new Pope may have to come from Latin America or Asia; if I remember correctly (and I admit to not keeping up with Catholic news), the Church is declining world-wide except for Latin America and Asia.
This is a global community; what are the reactions of your local Catholic population or friends?
This led to a conversation with my roommate, also a former Catholic. We both commented on the global decline of the Catholic Church and speculated that a new Pope may have to come from Latin America or Asia; if I remember correctly (and I admit to not keeping up with Catholic news), the Church is declining world-wide except for Latin America and Asia.
This is a global community; what are the reactions of your local Catholic population or friends?
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Comments
As far as his reason, I'll take it at face value until there's some other reason found. I understand that not too long ago he was told he was not fit enough for international air flights.
The next Pope? Well, it will never be an American, (we're viewed as too liberal and radical), and it will most likely not be a Cardinal from Africa. (need we say why?)
So although it doesn't affect me directly, since I've renounced the Catholic Church about 40 yrs ago, I think they should stick to Italians or Spaniards or other European Cardinals-- preferably one without any connections, ties or scandals involving Nazis, child molestation cover-ups or other in-house criminal activities....
As to his reasons, I can't say one way or another. To me it makes sense that it might be a combination of ailing health and the stress of having to deal with the scandals. I didn't even realize they could abdicate/resign until today.
I think the new pope will be Italian or Sicilian. The Italians can't stand this Polish and German intrusion...
@Brian, I think they are all stunned by the news.
From the maha Parinibbana sutta -
1. Now the Blessed One spoke to the Venerable Ananda, saying: "It may be, Ananda, that to some among you the thought will come: 'Ended is the word of the Master; we have a Master no longer.' But it should not, Ananda, be so considered. For that which I have proclaimed and made known as the Dhamma and the Discipline, that shall be your Master when I am gone.
I was born and raised a catholic, was an alter boy, Eucharistic minister, and leader of my youth group all the while not feeling that any of it fit me. After "leaving" the church as a teenager I had much aversion and anger towards the church and many of the people in it. I have worked through most all of that though. I have no opinion on this current event one way or another because it is not part of my life anymore and these days ironically feels more alien to me then the path of dhamma I now follow that stemmed from another culture on the other side of the globe.
I'm from a Roman Catholic Italian family.... and it's a big family of more than 130 people. I think of that 130 ppl there are maybe 4 of us who are no longer acknowledged/practicing catholics.
But those who still are had absolutely no issues with Pope John Paul II (Cardinal Karol Wojtyla) from Poland. He was very much beloved and/or respected by Italians, western Europeans and American Catholics alike.
That was an unfair and - IMO - unfounded generalization against Italian Catholics you made.
As for compassion, I have compassion - even for this retiring pope- I wish him no harm or evil to befall him. But he did not merit the job; he dragged the Church back 100 years, and he has a shady very UNholy past to boot.
He's not Catholic, though.
Not all for the right reasons though.
One thing's for sure, Much as HH the DL is quite open as to the possibility of a female Dalai Lama in some future incarnation, I can't ever see the Catholic Church being swayed in similar manner with regard to a female papacy....
I watched the news this evening in the UK and it would appear a good many Italians feel that they are certainly not being given full access to facts, and that there is a great deal more to this than meets the eye....As an ex R.Catholic and Italian to boot, I heard for myself that Romans are dismayed, confused and very shocked.... But murmurings certainly seem to be focussing on Internal scandals being too much for him to deal with any more.
I too feel that a central European will be a [prime candidate.
I think the Papal See may be of the opinion that 'playing at home' may be a 'safer bet'.....
We have to wait, now....
Preferably before becoming too Catholic . . .
Glad to hear about the life of peace and prayer. Bit late to start but good luck. :clap:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/pope-benedict-xvi-resignation-lead-black-pope-article-1.1260928
I'm no friend of his detractors.
I thought it was about an event unprecedented in modern times.
I'm sorry for pointing out that compassion is rooted in being kind...
But if appealing to charity as the more appropriate thing to show towards an elderly man retiring from an exhausting job can be construed as a personal attack —I think Mrs. Patmore would say, "Then, I don't know what."
You said: "But if appealing to charity as the more appropriate thing to show towards an elderly man retiring from an exhausting job can be construed as a personal attack...."
I don't think that's what Brian was referring to when he commented about personal attacks. Could be wrong, and if so I hope Brian will correct me. But that's not how I read what he said...
All kinds of sites reporting this news about the Pope are getting a very mixed-bag of responses.... Even on the Christian and Catholic leaning sites.
Ratzinger was not nearly as "beloved" by Catholics as the last few men to hold that holy position of Pope.
Many do not like what he did within the Catholic church before becoming Pope, (He was essentially the appointed "clearing house" for priests' molestation and sex scandals/accusations - and subsequent cover-ups and bribes - from all over Europe), nor what he did even earlier in his life as a young man (Hitler Youth group member, member of the German army then conveniently "deserting" out of it just as WWII started, etc.)
People may call him "traditional" and "old fashioned"... but in truth his views are "fundamentalist". In many people's eyes there is a difference.
Pope Benedict XVI resigns:
You know, some words are just so close to meaning their exact opposite, with just a letter missing or two juxtaposed:
Friend V Fiend
Unite V Untie
Resign V Reign
and others not really antonyms, but totally opposed anyhow:
Marital V Martial
Pope Benedict XVI still REIGNS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
All I can say about that ^ is: Wow.
All I can think is: Wonder why Nirvana finds this particular Pope so endearing while at the same time can't understand why others would not (whether he feels the same or not).
I have not seen one reason mentioned for this reverence for the Pope - except he's "old" and he's the Pope....
As for your word game- here's another. SACRED vs SCARED.
or Hallowed vs Hollowed.
I personally think he just didn't want to be bossed around and told to wake up ;P
For all that this well-written article depicts (and yes, it's longer than a Tweet or Facebook entry), still it makes me wonder what was LEFT OUT.
I say no more now lest I give offense when none is intended. However, I do protest.
Here's a link to a blog by a Catholic monks who now has a therapy practice for those who have experienced abuse in the Church. He offers some very insightful analysis as to the conditions and mechanisms in the institutional structure that allow misconduct to continue. I think it's great that there are people like this who come up through the ranks and use their experience and observations to devote themselves to helping others heal.
http://www.thinkingfaith.org/articles/20100415_1.htm
But even supposing it were true for a moment, how then would you address other strikingly similar evidence that crops up in Vatican documents beginning as long ago as 309 AD and is followed by a laundry list of canonical documents about how to deal with the pedophilia problem in the church: Here is the list, which is probably far from inclusive, that ends in 2001 ... document after document attesting to the Vatican's desire to keep sexual deviations among celibate clergymen under wraps. Do Vatican documents come within your judgment of vicious fabrication? Read the documents ... judge for yourself.
Then, of course, there are a mounting number of court decisions and high-profile civil leaders' allegations that seem to throw your assertion into question ... as for example in a Kansas City court decision; or investigations in California; or the Prime Minister of Australia, Julia Gillard, setting up a royal commission in the wake of police revelations of Roman Catholic priest abuse of
small children.
The "terrible untruths" you allude to but do not support seem to me to be possible ... but at the moment, I wonder if it would not be more accurate to label the litany of evidence as belonging among the terrible truths.
I tried to read the aforementioned disgusting literature and found it absolutely the work of a deranged man, plain and simple. The plain truth is that it is not impossible still to be overcome with bitterness on ones deathbed, and a heart full of bitterness is nowhere where truth is either found nor to be sought.
I have known vicious people in my life, and true to form, they are full of vices; yet they see every small imperfection in others and can't help but magnify them. They truly are a resentful lot.
How you deduce that the author was "deranged" beats the socks off me since I found the writing clear and cogent ... and I have some small history both as a book and newspaper editor.
Obviously, since you cite no specifics and decline to address the other factual aspects of Vatican depredations, past and present, this is your point of view and one which -- for reasons I cannot quite fathom -- you may expect others to subscribe to despite any evidence other than your word and conclusions... without reference to the specific bases on which you premise those conclusions.
As the Anglican Charles Williams once observed, "People believe what they want to believe." There is no rational discussion possible when beliefs cannot be opened to an evidence-based assessment. Emotional remonstrances only reach so far: Saying "It's true because I say it's true" falls short of a convincing or even an entirely sane assertion ... or anyway, that's what I think.
OK, I give up.
But if justice is not involved, bringing all this murky slop up to the surface of the consciousness is just a hue and a cry from voyeurism.
What one is capable of believing lies within him. I, for one, just cannot fathom anything in the piece I have labelled a fabrication. Perhaps it's just as simple as a matter of taste, as you suggest. Fine. I do not approve of scandal where its none of my business. I don't read the printed newspaper in my town, nor do I watch the local news. The local news is all about rapes and break-ins, and people doing bad things like that —Not part of my life. It's none of my business who the police charge with J-walking or worse. I don't move among criminals and don't want consciousness of their activities to be imbued on my being in any way. Sri Ramakrishna would neither allow money nor newsprint to come anywhere near him.
As for the other things you have cited in this thread, @genkaku, I have not even looked at them after having struggled to make any sense of A MODERN MONK's TALE. I know that monasteries don't operate like that and that Abbots are almost always elected by the community of brothers for some specified term and always have some sort of episcopal oversight over them.
It's oft quoted that this resignation is the "first in 600 years," but no pope has voluntarily resigned since Pope Celestine V in 1294.