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I'm not anti-Sangha, but...

...is it wrong for me to think that practicing/studying the Dharma should be primarily a personal activity? Perhaps it's because I began practicing Buddhism before a Sangha was available to me...or maybe it's because the only Sangha within reasonable distance now is Korean Zen and I consider myself Theravada and thusly it doesn't seem a very good fit for me.

But moreover, I feel that the Dharma should mean something special to you yourself as opposed to simply agreeing with what your teacher says. Of course I feel that other opinions can be beneficial, and I still do go to my temple for services. But I mostly do private practice without the assistance of a Sangha.

I guess my point of this post is this - what do you find beneficial about a Sangha? Is there something I'm missing?

Comments

  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran
    I don't attend a sangha either but there seems to be a suggestion that meditating with other people is beneficial (not sure about that myself) and that they help keep you on the spiritual path (i.e. they aren't trying to coax you down the pub for 7 pints of ale).
  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
    edited February 2013

    ...is it wrong for me to think that practicing/studying the Dharma should be primarily a personal activity? Perhaps it's because I began practicing Buddhism before a Sangha was available to me...or maybe it's because the only Sangha within reasonable distance now is Korean Zen and I consider myself Theravada and thusly it doesn't seem a very good fit for me.

    But moreover, I feel that the Dharma should mean something special to you yourself as opposed to simply agreeing with what your teacher says. Of course I feel that other opinions can be beneficial, and I still do go to my temple for services. But I mostly do private practice without the assistance of a Sangha.

    I guess my point of this post is this - what do you find beneficial about a Sangha? Is there something I'm missing?

    I disagree with James in saying that it is wrong to think this way. it only IS a personal activity in reality.

    I am in your same boat. I am a Theravada practitioner with no Theravada monastery close(closest is an hour, and the one I go to most frequently is 5 hours away). I am also the only buddhist I know in my daily life. I find nothing wrong with this. I am fine when I am alone, and I'm fine when I am with Dhamma friends.

    There is nothing wrong with both. The Buddha talked about dhamma friends being important, but he also talked about how we all must trod our own path, and this is what he had to say when it came down to the business of meditation -

    "There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore.[1] Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out.

    I do not feel a dire need for a teacher, and the monastics I learn from that I consider teachers, like Bhante G who is five hours away from me, are very big on taking your practice directly from the four Nikayas. This is how they practice and this is how they teach. I have all four of those Nikayas and can access the Buddha's words any time. I also have the confidence to trust my gut in matters of meditation practice and lack little doubt as to its benefits and worth.

    If you do have some doubts and troubles, having dhamma friends close can be of great help to your practice.

    I admittedly have a preference to meditate alone in the places the Buddha mentioned. I have trouble meditating inside, even meditation halls. This has more to do with my own attachments and aversions then any person or community of course.

    Invincible_summer
  • There is energy from the sangha that help propel one to practice. Just like energy of a sports team when the players start to believe in themselves and 'buy into' the team.
    BunkslobsterCinorjer
  • BhanteLuckyBhanteLucky Alternative lifestyle person in the South Island of New Zealand New Zealand Veteran
    Jayantha said:


    I disagree with James in saying that it is wrong to think this way. it only IS a personal activity in reality.

    Yes, fair comment.
    Maybe it comes down to personal style and preference in the end. The Buddha said to wander alone like a rhinoceros, but he also stressed the usefulness of a sangha. So there is lots of flexibility along that spectrum.
    My approach so far has been a pretty communal one, with lots of monasteries and meditation centres nearby.
  • I don't have an actual teacher, but I have started going to a dharma center that offers meditation and discussion. I'm finding it a helpful motivator. Some weeks I do great on my own, but other times I need an extra push to get me going -- I've learned to never underestimate the power of day to day crap to completely derail all my best laid spiritual plans. Plus it's just nice to know that I'm not alone in this. I don't see why practicing with a group and finding personal meaning has to be an either or scenario.
  • NirvanaNirvana aka BUBBA   `     `   South Carolina, USA Veteran
    edited February 2013
    Really enjoyed your first post, @JamestheGiant, especially what you quoted in bold and I repeat below. The benefits of holy company or a sangha are immense if there is a spirit of humility, openness, and friendship prevailing. In such atmosphere people tend to be at their best, whereas on their own they may slip and slide lots more. Now, one may argue that just because people tend to be at their best in certain situations, that may all be just phoney baloney, and they go back to their banal selves when they leave. I'd argue, though, that the good influences you get, plus the insight, plus the special kind of calming, soothing, and energizing "vibes" you are imbued with go a long way. It's good karma, generally, and sometimes even a spicier deliciousness than you can get alone in your own meditation closet.

    I sure miss my twice weekly or more contacts with my sangha from years ago. I really feel I'd be better off if I had one nearby now. I have to go great distances now to "go back home" to my "sangha." As it is, for now I'm stuck in South Carolina; it's a beautiful place full of beautiful people. However, as was once famously said by S.C. Congressman James Petigru in December of 1860 (when the special state convention voted 169 - 0 to secede from the Union): "South Carolina is too small for a republic and too large for an insane asylum." Believe me, the people striving to follow dharma on Newbuddhist aren't a tenth as crazy as some of the people who inhabit my state.

    A sangha is good grounding. To those who say it's an extra, who believe that the teaching is just "taught" and not "caught" from living vessels: "Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie is actually the whole of the holy life. When a monk has admirable people as friends, companions, & comrades, he can be expected to develop & pursue the noble eightfold path.
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    Training on your own, is just one world of training within the safe confines of a controlled environment.
    It helps you focus in specific ways but remains conditional to those surroundings.
    Beyond that controlled environment is the chaos and compromises of a wider world that is society at large.

    Practising with a Sangha (those who pay homage to the Buddha and his teachings) is a training that challenges and hones ones meditative skills beyond all worlds, to flourish where ever you go.
    Invincible_summerlobster
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    I imagine some of it depends on the tradition, as well. In Tibetan Buddhism there seems to be more focus on helping others achieve, not just yourself. When I studied myself, I still really enjoyed it, but found there were many things I did not always quite grasp. Once I found a teacher I connected with, I found he could explain things in a way he knew I would understand. I appreciate that.

    For me, my teacher(s) are more guides. I don't listen to what my main teacher says and just take it as The Word or anything like that. I listen to what he says and take whatever I can use. Sometimes, I don't agree, and I am ok with that, and so is he. The path, the journey, is still very personal and very individual. But I really enjoy the support. Not just in teaching but in simply knowing others who are on the same path and who can nod in agreement when I have question or a problem. To share in joy in each others lives yet travel the path alone.

    I did fine without a sangha. And 6 days a week I practice alone. But I appreciate and enjoy the one day a week I can come together with them as well. Kindred spirits are nice, especially when you feel surrounded by people who don't understand where you are coming from.
  • ...is it wrong for me to think that practicing/studying the Dharma should be primarily a personal activity? Perhaps it's because I began practicing Buddhism before a Sangha was available to me...or maybe it's because the only Sangha within reasonable distance now is Korean Zen and I consider myself Theravada and thusly it doesn't seem a very good fit for me.

    But moreover, I feel that the Dharma should mean something special to you yourself as opposed to simply agreeing with what your teacher says. Of course I feel that other opinions can be beneficial, and I still do go to my temple for services. But I mostly do private practice without the assistance of a Sangha.

    I guess my point of this post is this - what do you find beneficial about a Sangha? Is there something I'm missing?

    I agree for most part.

    I use this site a bit as a sangha.
    It often is a big dissapointment.
    Sometimes its really usefull for some insights tough.

  • ...is it wrong for me to think that practicing/studying the Dharma should be primarily a personal activity? Perhaps it's because I began practicing Buddhism before a Sangha was available to me...or maybe it's because the only Sangha within reasonable distance now is Korean Zen and I consider myself Theravada and thusly it doesn't seem a very good fit for me.

    But moreover, I feel that the Dharma should mean something special to you yourself as opposed to simply agreeing with what your teacher says. Of course I feel that other opinions can be beneficial, and I still do go to my temple for services. But I mostly do private practice without the assistance of a Sangha.

    I guess my point of this post is this - what do you find beneficial about a Sangha? Is there something I'm missing?

    No compassionate would ever expect you to just trust him. The Buddha urged his disciples not to blindly trust him because it doesn't help them pierce through ignorance. The term for those whom practice mostly by themselves ( or at home) I believe is a layman.I found it helpful to seeing a teacher prior to starting zen.
  • DaltheJigsawDaltheJigsaw Mountain View Veteran
    I don't know if there is much wrong or right, but I suppose it depends on each individual. You can practice at home, but you can practice in a Sangha, if it makes sense to you. I believe Jesus said - I'm paraphrasing - "Practice on your own, without anyone watching you, on your knees, praying to thy Almighty." So do what you feel is right within you. Do not let anyone tell you other wise.
  • BhanteLuckyBhanteLucky Alternative lifestyle person in the South Island of New Zealand New Zealand Veteran
    blu3ree said:

    The term for those whom practice mostly by themselves ( or at home) I believe is a layman.

    No, a layman or laywoman is a Buddhist person who is not a monk. By themselves or at home makes no difference in that definition.

    Definition of layman:
    1. a man who is not a member of the clergy
    or
    2. a person who does not have specialized or professional knowledge of a subject

    blu3ree
  • I use this site a bit as a sangha.
    It often is a big disappointment.
    Sorry.
    We could try harder but the disappointment is yours to deal with . . . :p

    The reason for community is reinforcement for the karmically challenged. Some sangha and community have been at it for years. Water off a ducks back. They still quack. However there are far more who provide insight, experience, knowledge, an open ear and a spare mala. Some are even enlightened (it happens). :clap:
    BhikkhuJayasaraBunks
  • blu3ree said:

    The term for those whom practice mostly by themselves ( or at home) I believe is a layman.

    No, a layman or laywoman is a Buddhist person who is not a monk. By themselves or at home makes no difference in that definition.

    Definition of layman:
    1. a man who is not a member of the clergy
    or
    2. a person who does not have specialized or professional knowledge of a subject

    Oops disregard my ignorance.
  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
    edited February 2013
    Jeffrey said:

    There is energy from the sangha that help propel one to practice. Just like energy of a sports team when the players start to believe in themselves and 'buy into' the team.

    maybe there is something "wrong" with me.. in that I've yet to feel this "energy" people talk about with being in dhamma groups. I understand what you mean by the "buy into the team" thing, buying into an ideal etc, but for me that has been buying into the teachings and the fact that dhamma works, not necessarily buying into a group.

    I guess the closest I've ever come to feeing the " energy" is last year on Vesak it was also an Uposatha day and there were about 8 of us who stayed up very late meditating with Bhante Seelananda. We arranged our cushions in a half circle and meditated. It was rough for me to meditate for so long but I did feel a bit of a connection with the others doing this special activity.

    I will admit though to feeling an attraction to monastics and the life of a monastic, or else I would not be planning to become one. There is something impressive about this life that draws me towards it, but thats a bit off topic.
  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
    Also I forgot to add -

    "You are your own teacher. Looking for teachers can’t solve your own doubts. Investigate yourself to find the truth - inside, not outside. Knowing yourself is most important." - Ajahn Chah
    MaryAnne
  • ZenBadgerZenBadger Derbyshire, UK Veteran
    There are positives and negatives to both the solitary life and the life of those with access to a formal sangha. If you are exclusively solitary you have no-one to direct you but yourself, you have only your own likes and dislikes and these actually direct your study and progress rather than someone else looking at you objectively and helping you find your strengths and weaknesses. But, you are also unlikely to become involved in arguments, power struggles and ego-trips since you only have yourself to impress. You have access to a temple and dharma friends surround you on the net if not in person so you do have a sangha, even if you choose not to call it that. If you struggle with a concept you can shout out and someone will answer, it might not be someone in a fancy robe (although I have my suspicions about some Newbuddistas) but it might just be the answer you need.
    MaryAnne

  • what do you find beneficial about a Sangha?
    Is there something I'm missing?

    What benefit is there in posting?
    Perhaps its one of the same benefits of a sangha.
    MaryAnneBunks


  • Alone: Questions arise; Questions get answered - through reading books, watching various teachers/Buddhist monks on video, and searching within oneself for the answers - (with the aid of the 4NTs and the 8 Fold path and perhaps even some suttas).

    Within Sangha: Questions arise; Questions get answered - through readings suggested by teachers/Buddhist monks, with some one on one conversation, and being advised to do some searching within oneself for the answers - (with the aid of the 4NTs, the 8 Fold Path and more than likely some suttas) ....

    Don't let anyone imply that you are somehow less a student of Buddhism if you can't - or don't wish to be - in a formal, real-life sangha. It is not for everyone, nor is it a strict requirement.

  • I don't really know what flavor of Buddhist I am (yet?). I attend a non-sectarian Dharma center and enjoy it thoroughly. We have Dharma discussions based on a reading, and it is really nice to be able to listen to others' ideas as well as voice my own ideas. I also feel that a group meditation is more energizing, for some reason.

    I don't think you necessarily HAVE to have a Sangha, but perhaps your case is just that you haven't found the "right" Sangha for you. Also, in a way, the people in this forum are a type of Sangha.
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    I can feel a definite different energy when with a group, especially meditating. It doesn't matter whether they are people I know well or not, but it is very different for me. I like both meditating alone and within a group. It's a good practice for me to meditate with others, because it is the only time I run into distractions and have to work past them. When someone coughs, sneezes, changes positions all the time, a phone rings, or whatever. When I meditate at home, I do not have any distractions to contend with. Which is nice, for sure, but it's also nice to learn how to deal with them.

    I tend to be of the belief that whether you belong to a Sangha or not, the entire Buddhist community worldwide is your Sangha. Whether you visit with your teacher in person or not, you would not be able to even be a Buddhist (most of us anyhow) without having teachers, even if your only teacher is Buddha himself only through the Sutras. No matter how solitary you are in your practice, you are still part of a larger Buddhist community simply by identifying as Buddhist.
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    What do you find beneficial about a Sangha? Is there something I'm missing?

    To train with a Sangha is to be spiritually challenged through that interaction. So many beings in the proccess of trying to let go of a lifetime of identity habits with varying degrees of success. It is like living in a meditative gym where Individual delusions get very little support.

    What you are missing by training alone is the taking on of group delusions that are often entangled in the practise itself.

    Both have there pro's & cons.

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited February 2013
    @Jayantha, imagine Ajahn Chah WAS your teacher. Would you get energy from that? :) If you met him each week or month for an interview... wouldn't that be cool?
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    Practicing on your own, the danger is pride.
    Practicing with others, the danger is laziness.

    In Zen, there is a sangha metaphor about a farmer who harvests his potatoes, puts them in a burlap bag, ties the top and throws them into a flowing stream. The potatoes rub against each other and become clean.
    BhikkhuJayasarachelalobsterBhanteLucky
  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
    Jeffrey said:

    @Jayantha, imagine Ajahn Chah WAS your teacher. Would you get energy from that? :) If you met him each week or month for an interview... wouldn't that be cool?

    even though he has been dead 20 years(when was 14, long before I was a buddhist), I do feel drawn to Ajahn Chah, not because of HIS teachings per say, but because of how he puts the dhamma in ways all can understand. This is another reason I like Ajahn Brahm, but even Brahm can't seem to do it quite like Chah.

    Chah is the only being In my experience where when people say he was enlightened I think.. "hmm, very possible".

    from what I read and heard he would often push away students who grew too attached to him by sending them out of country to start their own monasteries lol.
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    That's exactly why I like having an in-person teacher, and a sangha. Because sometimes people in the group have questions I have not thought of and bring a whole new light to things. Sometimes my teacher can explain things in a way he knows I will understand because he knows and understands me. I've had many, many more "ah HA!" moments from sangha meetings and teacher meetings than I've ever had on my own, even though I've had plenty in that way, too.
    Jeffrey
  • Thanks for all your input, guys. It's been very helpful.

    I realize that I also should've mentioned about the Sangha I visit that's Korean Zen - the only person there that I converse with is the teacher; I'm inherently a very shy person and don't converse with the other members of the temple. That's of course by no fault of theirs - some of them have seen me by myself and have started up conversations. I think I'm just a pretty awkward person! Everyone is at least a decade older than I am and they all just seem so...far away. If that makes any sense.

    I don't know if this makes any of your answers any different. Does me being a shy person make it any more excusable to almost dismiss the importance of a sangha in MY daily life? (Please please please do not read that as me dismissing its importance in general! I swear I understand the importance of a sangha to many Buddhists.)
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    Everyone just has to do what they feel is best. I'm actually a very reserved person, in person. I really enjoy my sangha and since I've been around them every week for a year, I have gotten to know most of them and am more willing to talk to them. But it is still very common for me to go every Saturday to our meetings and not say a word. I felt very awkward about it at first, but knowing people like me was important enough to me for me to put my discomfort aside to try. Since then, I have learned that whatever reason I am more reserved than others, doesn't matter. They don't judge me because of it. They don't "wish" I'd talk more, or whatever. If I feel the need to ask a question or share something, I do. If I don't, I don't. And they all fully accept me for who I am, and that is part of what I enjoy about it. That for once, I can go somewhere, and be my quiet, reserved, observing self and no one there makes me feel weird because of it. They don't try to strike up strange conversations because they feel sorry for me or anything, which happens in a lot of other situations.

    So, no, I don't think you are awkward or anything, it's just who you are. But, don't let it stop you from doing something you *want* to do because you might wonder what the others think of you. Chances are, you feeling awkward is much more you worrying about what they think about you, and chances are, they don't think anything awkward about you at all.

    Lastly, why do you feel a need to excuse the fact that you don't want, or feel the need to have a sangha? If you don't need it or want it, then that is ok. You don't need to come up with a reason or excuse to NOT have one in order to satisfy us, or anyone else. As long as you are satisfied with your practice, that is what matters.
    MaryAnne
  • When we’re young we can miss out on learning some (social) skills or we may actively develop some ineffective patterns of behavior.
    At least that is true for me.

    So when I joined a sangha –and in this context that word simply means a Buddhist group - I ran into my particular lack of skills and ineffective patterns of behavior. That really shouldn’t have been a surprise. I ran into them in my work, I would have encountered them in any other group that I wanted to become a part of.

    Sangha turned out to be life; not a school for life; just life. When I look back I think I was naïve about that. I must have thought that a Buddhist group was a safe place like a swimming class and that the teacher was like the instructor maybe. But instead it turned out to be just deep water.
    Some jump in knowing how to swim and they’re fine.
    Some jump in and learn how to swim and they pass through some personal growth.
    Some jump in and when they seem to drown someone sees it and is capable of giving the useful instructions.
    But when you’re not so lucky you just drown and people laugh behind your back.
    That’s life; that’s deep water; that’s sangha.

    I’ll get to my point. I wonder how “practice” relates to “personal growth” and how “personal growth” relates to “waking up” and what the role of sangha in all of that is.
    First of all I think sangha should be a safe place for practice. I don’t know about all Buddhist groups, but where I’ve been there was little organization. For instance when you finished a sesshin - and that can be an intense experience - you simply went back home. No-one there to help you sort it out.
    The least they could have done was talk about it at the end of the sesshin and say something like:”Listen; this kind of serious meditation may actually do something to you. Take it easy for some time. Don’t do anything crazy. Here are some people you can call when you need to talk.”

    Secondly personal growth is good for you, but in a sense it’s beside the point. For instance when you get a job like being the cook for the sesshin, you can learn a lot about how to cook and about how to organize the kitchen and about how to get a team to do a good job.
    All of that is great; but it’s not the main reason you’re there. We’re all there to wake up.

    In Zen we love a job well done. We love to have the place ridiculously clean and orderly at all times. We think the world ends when we miss a prescribed bow or a bell or a clap. The way we fold our napkin appears to be crucial for our chances to enlightenment.
    But the truth is we can wake up to a mess. When we fuck up, that’s a great moment for having a glimpse. And – the way I see it – we can fully wake up and still don’t know how to run a kitchen.

    Maybe we should ask ourselves these questions. This Buddhist group that we’re in is it a safe place? Why do people drop out? Do we care? Or are we really just competing with our fellow practitioners for status in the group and for getting close to the teacher?
    And also; why are we really here? What we get all excited about; the folding of the napkin, the rituals and the robes; or even the personal growth, the social skills or the lack thereof; is that what our practice is about?

    I woke up in the middle of the night and this is what I was thinking about. I wrote this and only after that I noticed this thread about the benefits of sangha.
    I guess it depends on the sangha and on what you want from it.
    You can get some “personal growth” in a safe sangha.
    But “waking up” is done here and now.

    Sorry for the long post
    MaryAnne
  • I think I'm just a pretty awkward person!
    You and me both.
    I may be one of the gawky awkward Buddhas - when I awaken.
    The perfect sangha, perfect teacher and perfect practitioner is hard to find in the realm of samsara. Buddhists are often a little distant, comes from too much composure and equanimity. As our social skills can be improved, how can we go about this?

    Maybe I will start with Instant Messaging . . . Anyone recommend a friendly Buddhist place for the socially inept?

    :wave:
  • BhanteLuckyBhanteLucky Alternative lifestyle person in the South Island of New Zealand New Zealand Veteran
    edited February 2013

    Does me being a shy person make it any more excusable to almost dismiss the importance of a sangha in MY daily life?

    That's totally okay. In fact, it sounds as if you have made peace with your shyness, and you know how best to be by yourself. You know that you may do better practising alone.
    That's making what most people would see as a weakness, into a strength.
    So, good work. :)
    MaryAnne


  • I don't know if this makes any of your answers any different. Does me being a shy person make it any more excusable to almost dismiss the importance of a sangha in MY daily life? (Please please please do not read that as me dismissing its importance in general! I swear I understand the importance of a sangha to many Buddhists.)

    I'm very shy too. It took me months before I was comfortable checking out places. One thing that I've discovered about myself, is that being shy it takes me awhile to feel really comfortable with people. But if I keep going back (what ever activity it might be -- this goes for more than just a sangha), I will slowly start to get to know other people and feel more comfortable. It just takes time, but if I don't at least get out there, I never give myself the chance to meet and warm up to new people and experience new situations.

    I've been to the dharma center twice now -- the first time I was really nervous, the second time I was a little better (especially after the discussion at the end. I didn't really say much, but I got a better sense of the other people) and got more out of meditating there, and I know the more I go the more I will get out of being there.

    If this is something that you just don't feel is going to be helpful to you right now, that's ok. Everyone is different, and it may take more time before looking for a group and/or teacher is the right thing for you to do. Feeling shy and awkward (as I do much of the time) is not necessarily an easy thing to deal with, but it can get better -- but don't rush yourself. There's nothing wrong with doing things at your own pace.
    lobster
  • ...is it wrong for me to think that practicing/studying the Dharma should be primarily a personal activity? Perhaps it's because I began practicing Buddhism before a Sangha was available to me...or maybe it's because the only Sangha within reasonable distance now is Korean Zen and I consider myself Theravada and thusly it doesn't seem a very good fit for me.

    But moreover, I feel that the Dharma should mean something special to you yourself as opposed to simply agreeing with what your teacher says. Of course I feel that other opinions can be beneficial, and I still do go to my temple for services. But I mostly do private practice without the assistance of a Sangha.

    I guess my point of this post is this - what do you find beneficial about a Sangha? Is there something I'm missing?

    When Buddha started to seek for the answer to the sufferings of life, he had no Sangha to rely on. The Sangha came into existence only after his enlightenment. It is for propagating the Dhamma. If there is no Sangha, there will come a day when the Dhamma will be hidden from the view of human. If you think studying the Dhamma is a personal activity, it should be fine but whatever knowledge you have about the Dhamma would be with you and you only.It would be better to encourage the perpetuation of the Sangha to enable the seed of the Dhamma to be dipersed lest the world will be filled with light of goodness. The Sangha, I suppose could be regarded as a professional body, the monks being trained and specialised in their field of propagating the real Dhamma.
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