Is the Vajrayana/Tibetan tradition part of Mahayana or not?

TheEccentric

Sometimes people say that Tibetan Buddhism is part of Mahayana but I have also heard that Vajrayana counts as a third school, is it part of Mahayana or a completely seperate school?

Jeffrey

It's a different vehicle. Vehicles are only the classification of Tibetan Buddhism. Zen person doesn't say "I am mahayana vehicle"

Tibetan Buddhism teaches all three vehicles (hinayana -fundamental, mahayana, vajrayana), but some focus more or less on the different vehicles.

Dakini

hm...you're right, some people do categorize it as a 3rd school. But it uses Mahayana sutras, so it's a spin-off of Mahayana, like Zen is, in its own way.

caz

TheEccentric said:

Sometimes people say that Tibetan Buddhism is part of Mahayana but I have also heard that Vajrayana counts as a third school, is it part of Mahayana or a completely seperate school?

Mahayana can be divided in two schools that of Paramitayana which is Sutra and Vajrayana which is Tantra, Bodhichitta is essential for both.

Nirvana

I thought hinayana was a dirty word.

I wonder if someone gets to get his mouth washed out with soap for using it? No! I'm not supposed to care about ancient disputes, am I?

Here's a recent thread on the Three Buddhist Schools:

newbuddhist.com/discussion/17858/help-me-learn-about-the-3-buddhist-schools

Jeffrey

Tibetan Buddhism also teaches the hinayana. Maybe in former times it was used derogatory. The view however is that one should not slip to the hinayana view. Some mahayanas vow that and hope they won't go backwards (in their perspective). It is also a breach of the bodhisattva vows to dislodge a hinayana practitioner from their practice. Finally, I recall Shunryu Suzuki say his sangha was a hinayana practice with a vast mahayana mind.

BhanteLucky

The word Hinayana is only insulting when used to refer to Theravada.
When used to refer to the preliminary teachings taught within Mahayana or Vajrayana, it is a neutral technical term.

lobster

The vajrayanists regard their path as the third turning of the dharma wheel, encompassing the previous teachings but offering more dynamic skilful teachings for the Micky Mouse Buddhists (such as me) of the kali yuga.
The term 'hinyana' (small wheel) was introduced by the maha (greater) yana to belittle their predecessors and bolster their authority.

As far as I rememember there were ten or twelve original Buddhist schools. Then we had the first council and many were dissolved into nothingness. Therevada was one of the original 'Hinyanist' or 'School of the elders'.

Cinorjer

It's much more complicated than you can ever imagine.

Buddhism arrived early in Tibet, direct from India via the Silk Road. This Buddhism was not the "Tibetan Buddhism" as practiced today, however. At this point in India, Buddhism was already a mass of different practices and philosophies, from the scant accounts we have, and was different from even what we call Theravadan today. On top of that, Buddhism in Tibet quickly incorporated distinct elements of the native religion, Bon, to begin transforming Indian Buddhism into something different.

Then, over the next thousand or so years, Tibet and China began a dance of influence and dominance with the Mahayana and Chan Buddhism that developed there. At one point, Buddhism was actually wiped out in Tibet and later re-established from a few surviving temples in isolated regions.

Eventually, Chinese Buddhism influenced Tibet enough so that they shared quite a bit of language. However, Chinese Buddhism continued to reject the heavily cultural Tantric element so that remained distinctively Tibetan.

So if you look at the first path Buddhism took into Tibet, then Vajrayana is a distinctive branch that arrived from India. If you look at the influence of Chinese Mahayana, it's another branch of Mahayana.

Hope this makes a fascinating but confusing subject only slightly confusing.

caz

Nirvana said:

I thought hinayana was a dirty word.

I wonder if someone gets to get his mouth washed out with soap for using it? No! I'm not supposed to care about ancient disputes, am I?

Here's a recent thread on the Three Buddhist Schools:

newbuddhist.com/discussion/17858/help-me-learn-about-the-3-buddhist-schools

Its not a dirty word, Hinayana refers to the lower scope practices within Mahayana Buddhism such as meditations on 1. Our precious Human life 2. Death and Impermanence 3. The Lower realms 4. Refuge 5. Actions and their effects.

These are all very essential aspects of Mahayana Buddhism but they fall into the lower scope of meditation, Each meditation builds upon the next.

Dakini

JamestheGiant said:

The word Hinayana is only insulting when used to refer to Theravada.
When used to refer to the preliminary teachings taught within Mahayana or Vajrayana, it is a neutral technical term.

We recently had a thread devoted to whether "hinayana" was a legit term, and when this ^^ position was floated, it didn't go over. So...idk. Best to err on the side of caution, I guess.

Jeffrey

I don't think any modern Buddhist refers to hinayana as a disgusting statement.

Aside from that I think just as many Mahayanists say their vehicle is vastest as Theravadans who say Mahayanists are Hindu.

karasti

My teacher talked at one point of the "lesser" and "greater" vehicles, but he said the way we comprehend those words is not really the same as what they really mean and that one is not meant to be considered better than the other. It's always worth keeping in mind that what something translates to is often very inexact, and even if it does translate, we don't always apply the same meanings.

I've found this conversation interesting, in the same way I find Christians debating Catholicism vs Presbyterian vs Lutheran and such interesting. The core is the same, and the most important, yet everyone gets lost in the details instead of focusing on the important things.

BhanteLucky

Jeffrey said:

I don't think any modern Buddhist refers to hinayana as a disgusting statement.

Huh, just wait till you hang out with Mahayanists as a Theravadan. Someone will drop the H bomb eventually in disparagement. From my experience with Tibetan Buddhists, and me from the Thai Theravada tradition.

shanyin

A Tibetan Rinpoche and former abbot of Drepung Gomang Monastery in India stayed in my house. I asked him if he was a Mahayana Buddhist and he said yes.

Jeffrey

@JamestheGiant, They might say Hinayana, but not mean it as 'shit Buddhist'.

In any case I am not going to defend them, I am only responsible for my behavior (not theirs) and also I have concern for whether my teacher is ethical. I don't think my teacher or her teacher have ever been derogatory. Critical of differences in approach to dharma, but not derogatory. Her teacher said that it is a good thing for a lifetime to study shravaka view of emptiness and that his favoring shentong does not put down the shravaka view.

&Shravaka view means emptiness of the skhandas is what constitutes emptiness.

Another example is my teacher's teacher often teaches the 'two truths' even though the highest view he teaches goes beyond or refines 'the two truths'.

riverflow

84,000 doors. As they say down south, "It's all good."

taiyaki

In Tibetan Buddhism there are four vehicles.

Vajrayana is the third vehicle, which is built on the basis of the Individual and Great Vehicle (Hinayana & Mahayana, just words no flaming or pretension).

So without the Individual Vehicle and Greater Vehicle there is no Vajrayana.

Jeffrey

Taiyaki, which is the fourth?