Morality Osho

shanyin

A true morality arises only in a meditator's conciousness. It is not something imported from the outside. It is something arising in your very being. It is spontaneous. And when morality is spontaneous it is a joy, it is simply sharing your compassion and love.

I really like that quote from Osho.

lobster

Bog one knew about morality? perhaps . . .
http://www.oregonlive.com/rajneesh/index.ssf/2011/04/part_one_it_was_worse_than_we.html

. . . perhaps morality is a little more than talking the nitrous oxide fuelled 'wisdom'

I would suggest morality is reflected in the results. Love that leads to some of the OnShow results is something we might be better without . . .

However you have posted from your moral sense and integrity and therefore the quote is of value. Thank you for posting.

BhanteLucky

shanyin said:

I really like that quote from Osho.

Osho and morality... I don't understand the connection...


But the quote is good, no matter who from.

riverflow

shanyin said:

A true morality arises only in a meditator's conciousness. It is not something imported from the outside. It is something arising in your very being. It is spontaneous. And when morality is spontaneous it is a joy, it is simply sharing your compassion and love.

I really like that quote from Osho.

To add some philosophical cross-fertilisation: It was that external 'morality' that Nietzche (and many other critics) saw as problematic, because this 'morality' had a source outside of oneself--all one can really do is conform to some metaphysical yardstick and that was considered to be 'good.' For all of Nietzsche's rhetoric, his assessment was more than valid.

This is one of the lamentable things that has occurred in the English language: the word 'virtue' has, especially since the Victorian age, taken on a different connotation from its original Latin roots: virtus. Cicero and later Seneca both transformed this word, which meant strength and 'manliness' to be proven on the battlefield into an inner strength-- so the word had more to do with one's own integrity-- it was something that was cultivated (in Stoicism) and which grew out of oneself.

This is why (in the original sense of the word virtue) De in the Daodejing is rightly translated as 'virtue,' though this virtue is cultivated in a way very different from the Stoics.

But the principle is the same: goodness, love, and compassion cannot be found elsewhere, either in a transcendent 'other' or by conforming to any external commandment. Each of us contain the seeds of compassion and love that are uniquely one's own (through countless causes and conditions) and those are the seeds we must cultivate and for which we should be thankful and pass on to one another. The precepts are aids to help cultivate those seeds--they are not merely moral commandments to be obeyed. And the cultivation and passing along of those seeds means learning to realise our own buddha-nature.

This is that goodness that spontaneously happens--it is manifested in oneself, yet it doesn't belong to oneself. True Compassion and true wisdom are not two things, but one and the same.

Many many years ago, when I was a Christian of sorts, a passage I really liked was from Galatians, regarding 'Not I, but Christ in me.' In a similar sense, in compassion that spontaneously arises, it is possible to say, 'Not I, but buddha in me.' But here is the twist: in order to realise that 'Not-I-but-buddha-in-me' one must at the same time realise the 'Not-You-but-buddha-in-you.'

John Daido Loori:

Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva is the Hearer of the Cries of the World. And one of the characteristics of Avalokiteshvara is that she manifests herself in accord with the circumstances. So she always presents herself in a form that’s appropriate to what’s going on. In the bowery, she manifests as a bum. Tonight, in barrooms across the country, she’ll manifest as a drunk. Or as a motorist on the highway, or as a fireman, or a physician. Always responding in accord with the circumstances, in a form appropriate to the circumstances. How is that?

Every time there’s a stranded vehicle on the side of the road and a motorist stops to help Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva has manifested herself. Those characteristics of wisdom and compassion are the characteristics of all beings. All Buddhas. We all have that potential. It’s just a matter of awakening it. You awaken it by realizing there’s no separation between self and other.

shanyin

thanks guys

Dakini

Osho really isn't one to be preaching about morality.....

Citta

shanyin said:

A true morality arises only in a meditator's conciousness. It is not something imported from the outside. It is something arising in your very being. It is spontaneous. And when morality is spontaneous it is a joy, it is simply sharing your compassion and love.

I really like that quote from Osho.

And the result of that philosophy was attempted murder. Deliberate introduction of pathogenic organisms into the food and drink of those who opposed them, and widespread fraud and intimidation. And the sexual exploitation of young women.
All or which is a matter of public record and is uncontested by former Rajneeshis..

The reality is that hell will freeze over before morality "arises in your very being".
Its a gyp and a fraud.

zenff

shanyin said:

A true morality arises only in a meditator's conciousness. It is not something imported from the outside. It is something arising in your very being. It is spontaneous. And when morality is spontaneous it is a joy, it is simply sharing your compassion and love.

I’m afraid the question where “true morality” comes from is more complicated.

Our brain has some genetically determined tendencies. Society rewards and punishes all sorts of behavior in all sorts of ways and the brain is sensitive to that. And last but not least what moral behavior is is open to debate and differently answered in different times and places.

I think the simple answer is that "true morality" is an illusion.

chela

I think that so many things are not so easy to discuss amongst friends because language often gets in the way of true meaning.

Don't forget that the Buddha taught that one should take to heart a teaching, which is not dependent on the teacher. In other words, "do as I say, not as I do." A teacher does not necessarily have to walk the talk in order to present a good lesson. Of course, we find it much easier to accept a teaching from someone who appears to be living the life, but we must go deeper to be a true student.

Jason

Citta said:

And the result of that philosophy was attempted murder. Deliberate introduction of pathogenic organisms into the food and drink of those who opposed them, and widespread fraud and intimidation. And the sexual exploitation of young women.
All or which is a matter of public record and is uncontested by former Rajneeshis..

Living in Oregon and seeing a recent documentary made about the events in Rajneeshpuram, Oregon, I have to say that I don't think everything that happened was the result of the philosophy of Osho or the communal structure of Rajneeshpuram so much as a combination of mounting antagonisms with locals arising out of things like xenophobia and zoning issues, internal politics, paranoia (both justified and exaggerated), and the influence of Ma Anand Sheela and her inner circle. The impression I get is that the wider community at Rajneeshpuram had no knowledge of, nor participated in, the poisoning and murder plots. Ma Anand Sheela was also the mastermind behind the Wasco County election fiasco, although the community seems to have supported the tactic in order to equal out what they felt to be bigotry and religious intolerance on the part of rural Oregonians trying to get rid of the commune. That said, I'm not all that enamoured with Osho's philosophy or extravagant tastes, nor the arguable cult-like mentality that surrounds many of his communities; but reading books like The Book of Secrets, I can't see anything within them and his philosophy that'd logically lead to attempted murder.

Dakini

Rajneesh was known in India for running a sex cult before he ever came to the US. He's into "sharing the love", alright. :rolleyes:

lobster

The person who taught me Chen Yen Buddhist Yoga was a cult leader.
Here is the official mythology
http://www.mushindokai.com

Here are some of his words
http://www.oocities.org/gorinto/5steps.html

I can point to other frauds who also inspired and provided genuine conditions for exploration.

My knowledge of physical mind/body interplay is in part enhanced by trying to unfathom teachings that still hold value even though the source was faulty.

It is the integrity of our learning that may eventually lead us from being second rate and 'attracted to fraud' inclinations into genuine aspirants and empowered seekers.

That is why as chela says, the lesson is 'independent' of the integrity of the teacher.
It is dependent on the integrity of the student.

We often have the condition of great teachers being asked to indulge in a facade of . . . well I will let you consider that . . .

Citta

Jason said:

Citta said:

And the result of that philosophy was attempted murder. Deliberate introduction of pathogenic organisms into the food and drink of those who opposed them, and widespread fraud and intimidation. And the sexual exploitation of young women.
All or which is a matter of public record and is uncontested by former Rajneeshis..

recent documentary made about the events in Rajneeshpuram, Oregon, I have to say that I don't think everything that happened was the result of the philosophy of Osho or the communal structure of Rajneeshpuram so much as a combination of mounting antagonisms with locals arising out of things like xenophobia and zoning issues, internal politics, paranoia (both justified and exaggerated), and the influence of Ma Anand Sheela and her inner circle. The impression I get is that the wider community at Rajneeshpuram had no knowledge of, nor participated in, the poisoning and murder plots. Ma Anand Sheela was also the mastermind behind the Wasco County election fiasco, although the community seems to have supported the tactic in order to equal out what they felt to be bigotry and religious intolerance on the part of rural Oregonians trying to get rid of the commune. That said, I'm not all that enamoured with Osho's philosophy or extravagant tastes, nor the arguable cult-like mentality that surrounds many of his communities; but reading books like The Book of Secrets, I can't see anything within them and his philosophy that'd logically lead to attempted murder.

I take your point about the wider community of Rajneeshpuram Jason..but I think there are layers of complex processes at work here.
One of my closest friends was the " town treasurer " of Rajneeshpuram and had a close-up view of the events. He remains convinced that Sheela at all times was acting only on the orders of Osho/Rajneesh.
He also subsequent to the collapse of that community sees much of what occurred as a direct result of the pernicious influence of the papanca around the idea of intrinsic goodness. A kind of correlation to the idea of Original Sin but with a plus sign.
The fact is the arising of conditions are not a result of any intrinsic factors.
We are tabula rasa plus karma..
And from Rajneeshpuram to the latest scandal involving a bonking Zen master a fertile ground for damage is created by the myth of intrinsic wisdom which needs no precept or instruction for its magical revelation ..it simply arises by achieving mental passivity.
Actually, demonstrably, it mostly doesn't.

Jason

Citta said:

I take your point about the wider community of Rajneeshpuram Jason..but I think there are layers of complex processes at work here.

Of course there are, which is why I added the above. The influence of a charismatic leader is one thing, suggesting that philosophical ideas about goodness lead to attempted murder is another. Both may have been factors leading up to events in Rajneeshpuram, but I certainly don't think it was entirely (or even mostly) due to the latter.

Citta said:

One of my closest friends was the " town treasurer " of Rajneeshpuram and had a close-up view of the events. He remains convinced that Sheela at all times was acting only on the orders of Osho/Rajneesh.

That may be true, but there's no evidence of that, so there's no way we'll ever know for sure.

Citta said:

He also subsequent to the collapse of that community sees much of what occurred as a direct result of the pernicious influence of the papanca around the idea of intrinsic goodness. A kind of correlation to the idea of Original Sin but with a plus sign.
The fact is the arising of conditions are not a result of any intrinsic factors.
We are tabula rasa plus karma..
And from Rajneeshpuram to the latest scandal involving a bonking Zen master a fertile ground for damage is created by the myth of intrinsic wisdom which needs no precept or instruction for its magical revelation ..it simply arises by achieving mental passivity.
Actually, demonstrably, it mostly doesn't.

Perhaps so. And if true, I think it also makes a good argument against certain conceptions and/or presentations of buddhanature, which is one of the criticisms Thanissaro Bhikkhu levels against it in "Freedom From Buddha Nature."

Jeffrey

The Buddha nature is not original virtue. It is original sensitivity, well-being, responsiveness that can yield. It is original clarity of mind that can see. It is the original sense of vastness of non-grasping.

All of those qualities are empty but without them there is no spiritual path. They are self evident. Have you ever been without sensitivity? Have you ever been without the faculty to know and learn?

Osho can claim he has realized the Buddha nature. But then I seem to think there are some distortions of it in the case of Osho. He may be a great yogi, but not so great as a buddhist.

Citta

I have no problem Jeffrey with the idea of original clarity of mind or of original non grasping and all that good stuff. My problem is with the idea that if we sit upright enough and become passive enough for long enough, all without instruction or the need for sila, all that good stuff simply pops up, and Bobs your uncle.

Its never happened. It never will.

As to Osho/Rajneesh being a great yogi. Did you know that there is a good deal of solid evidence that he was a heavy user of Nitrous Oxide ? A weird substance to abuse..but it seems that he did.
Hence the giggles. Hence the far look. Hence also his early death. He had a number of physical conditions. None of which would be helped by laughing gas.
Perhaps using Nitrous Oxide is compatible with being a yogi..I have my doubts.

maarten

I have only read one book by Osho (Yoga, the science of the mind Vol 2), but it inspired me a lot. It is one of the spiritual books that have impressed me most. AFAIK the book is a compiled version of some of his speeches, but remarkably coherent.
On the other hand, I will not say anything about Osho as a person. Maybe he completely lost it and developed a very unhealthy moral, there are more than enough pointers to make me worry. This would create quite a paradox: how can someone be (or seem) so wise and act so unwisely? Yet this will not keep me from reading his books.

Citta

I think he was a master maarten..a master that is of taking other peoples material and bits and bobs of other peoples hard won insights and weaving them into a convincing narrative which he then claimed as his own.
See, it wasn't the 32 Rolls Royces, or the 5 aeroplanes , or the tens of thousands of dollars found in his private jet when he attempted to flee the US that bothers me. Although they give me pause..Its the fact that he promised easy Enlightenment to thousands of sincere people..and could not deliver.
" You let down your people Evita, they wanted you to be immortal, thats all they wanted, not much to ask for, but in the end you could not deliver "..as Che sings to the eponymous heroine.
But Evita never claimed immortality...Osho/Rajneesh abusing substances and squirreling away riches on the other hand did claim enlightenment on a par with The Buddha.
And what of the thousands of followers after his demise ?
You will find that many needed long years of counselling to come to terms with what they saw and witnessed, including my friend. And that large numbers were so traumatised that they have become died in the wool militant secularists who shudder at the very mention of " meditation "..including my friend.
Its all in the public domain.

Citta

Thats " dyed-in-the-wool" ...Very Freudian..lol.