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Hallucinogenics - A 'smash-and-grab on the Transcendental'?
In regards to the topic: I have never seen substances as being a path to truth. I realize some people might disagree, though I maintain the belief that it only brings what could be comparable to a dream-like, illusory state. Personal belief.
I agree. If enlightenment is cutting through illusion to see reality as it really is, how can a drug which alters reality even further by creating new illusions be considered helpful?
One uses attachment to transcend suffering. You know, hold on to the boat until you get 'cross to the other side.
That said, you definitely gotta leave the boat if you're gonna walk around on the other side...
(not my original work, you can thank the Buddha)
Because this is in General Banter and not Members Only, I won't admit to much... suffice to say that I'm not exactly ignorant of the subject matter. :orange:
I don't mind if people use drugs recreationally. I only object to the notion that they are somehow aligned with the path of enlightenment. Drugs are fun, this I understand, I just don't believe people when they say they use them for purely spiritual purposes. It makes my bullshit meter go off. Any realizations learned arise from a condition that is not even comparable to regular life and therefore, I don't see how it can possibly apply.
In regards to the topic: I have never seen substances as being a path to truth. I realize some people might disagree, though I maintain the belief that it only brings what could be comparable to a dream-like, illusory state. Personal belief.
I agree. If enlightenment is cutting through illusion to see reality as it really is, how can a drug which alters reality even further by creating new illusions be considered helpful?
Very good question. I wish there was more research. I have a theory that it's sometimes because it stops ones mind working properly, and in a particular way. This allows us to glimpse what lies deeper than we usually look. Iow it's not visions that do it, it's the breakdown of our usual mental processes and thus a refocusing or redirection of attention.
This makes sense to me because I cannot see how weed, say, can act in an organised and beneficial way on our complex brain processes, but can easily see how it might disrupt them.
Madness will show you the light behind the door. I have deliberately inhaled from that dead end too. Extreme pain will show the light behind the door. Don't flagellate. Not tried that one - they did not have a whip in my size . . . Love of any sort is a way in. Love that door opener . . .
These are all glitches in the matrix. To break through we will have to accept who we are. We will have to realise who we are. How?
There are no shortcuts. Just an ass on a cushion . . .
Recent research on psilocybin does suggest that individuals do have profound insight experiences that change their lives in a powerful way.
"At the time, the volunteers reported mystical experiences — typically described as a "sense of unity" — in which the confusion of the world and of competing value systems came together in a coherent whole. These were not described in recreational terms, but as profoundly meaningful spiritual events. Fourteen months later, over half reported substantial increases in life satisfaction and positive behaviour, while no long-term negative effects were reported."
These appear to be life-altering experiences that have much in common with classical mystical experiences described throughout the ages,"
I can understand that meditators may be skeptical of the use of hallucinogens to gain insight but the evidence is there.
""At the time, the volunteers reported mystical experiences — typically described as a "sense of unity" — in which the confusion of the world and of competing value systems came together in a coherent whole. These were not described in recreational terms, but as profoundly meaningful spiritual events. Fourteen months later, over half reported substantial increases in life satisfaction and positive behaviour, while no long-term negative effects were reported."
These appear to be life-altering experiences that have much in common with classical mystical experiences described throughout the ages,""
This is very true. It has been my personal experience. It doesn't matter to me if those with an anti-"drug" mindset wish to believe this is impossible, or a delusion, or merely the 'rationalizations' of the drug-addicted or addled. I am neither drug dependent nor addled, thank you.
My experience profoundly changed my life, both spiritually and intellectually- forever. It is because of that experience I know - really know - I am undoubtedly and indescribably 'connected' to all humanity and the universe in a spiritual way. And isn't that an undeniable aspect of any religious awareness?
IMO there are two kinds of understanding when it comes to religious or spiritual matters- 1. the intellectual understanding; reading and comprehending the scriptures, the suttras, the dogma, etc., and 2. the spiritual understanding; the knowing and feeling and living Truth of it all at your very inner core ....
For some people, in some instances, under some circumstances, that CAN happen when using certain substances to unlock the barriers that block the modern, spiritually disconnected conscious mind from 'seeing' what the unconscious mind knows - for thousands and thousands of years.
I am not claiming this is any sort of "short cut" to spiritual awareness, or Buddhahood, or even that it should be routinely pursued as such. But, when it DOES happen, however it happens, it is no less valid a doorway than any other life-changing and profoundly moving experience others have mentioned; such as near death experiences, extreme pain, the miracle of birth, etc. To deny one is possible, you should deny ALL are possible. And to deny it all is, well, pretty darn arrogant, no?
My life was also changed by the experiences I had in the mushroom fields back in the seventies. At the the time I didn't meet anyone else who shared those experiences. The others got high. Because of the apparent rarity of any experience other than a "trip", either good or bad, from eating the mushrooms, I would never recommend that someone should try them. It's been many years since I have wasted my time trying to explain what I saw to anyone. Like @Maryanne I haven't looked for an explanation of or confirmation that my experiences were real or meaningful. I still go back to the area where those things occurred to walk or sit.
Just curious, @robot ... were you alone when you experienced this? Or were you with others also enjoying the mushroom fields? Did you set out with any sort of specific (spiritual) goal in mind? Or did that just... happen?
I was alone for my experience, and like you it was a long time ago in the '70's, and it did not lead to any sort of cravings or attachment to these sorts of drugs. I can still (intentionally) recall and relive much of the experience, right down to the goosebumps and visions/ connections of insight...
But I had also set out on my "journey" with a purpose in mind... I wasn't sure it was going to be successful or not, but it was definitely a "set up" in the fact that I planned the whole event and surrounding atmosphere to be conducive to the best possible experience. However, I did have prior experiences with this (mescalin) and other types of hallucinogens, but always with others around.
Also, I see this as the same as someone who partakes in "guided meditations" and other forms of consciously tapping into the unconscious. Like I said, no less valid, and IMO when it works- it works.
It doesn't matter to me if those with an anti-"drug" mindset wish to believe this is impossible, or a delusion, or merely the 'rationalizations' of the drug-addicted or addled. I am neither drug dependent nor addled, thank you.
My experience profoundly changed my life, both spiritually and intellectually- forever. It is because of that experience I know - really know - I am undoubtedly and indescribably 'connected' to all humanity and the universe in a spiritual way. And isn't that an undeniable aspect of any religious awareness?
IMO there are two kinds of understanding when it comes to religious or spiritual matters- 1. the intellectual understanding; reading and comprehending the scriptures, the suttras, the dogma, etc., and 2. the spiritual understanding; the knowing and feeling and living Truth of it all at your very inner core ....
I am not claiming this is any sort of "short cut" to spiritual awareness, or Buddhahood, or even that it should be routinely pursued as such. But, when it DOES happen, however it happens, it is no less valid a doorway than any other life-changing and profoundly moving experience others have mentioned; such as near death experiences, extreme pain, the miracle of birth, etc. To deny one is possible, you should deny ALL are possible. And to deny it all is, well, pretty darn arrogant, no?
Thanks @MaryAnne - this is just the sort of feedback I had been hoping for. I agree that many people seem to assume that such experiences must be 'deluded' but clearly many individuals such as yourself report deep insight experiences and real changes in behaviour as a result (which is what defines 'insight' as truly 'insightful').
I feel that our 'war on drugs' is terribly deluded. The problem is addiction, not drugs (and Shakyamuni, was after all, a recovered addict).
Society would benefit from a more mature relationship with such experiences and take people who have had them more seriously so thanks for your candour.
I wouldn't deny that mind-altering drugs could provide an initial glimpse into something new-- and that could be very inspirational. However, I'm not sure how such an experience could be repeated, sustained and developed in the context of Buddhist practice.
The cultivation of wisdom and compassion is the key to practice--not running after some thing called "enlightenment," with or without the use drugs. In the meantime, awakening will take care of itself--fruit ripens in its own due time, so why chase after "it"?
If someone is into Buddhism in order to "get enlightened," how is that really any different from chasing after a job, money, sex, or any other desired thing? In the end it is reduced to just more of the same.
Just curious, @robot ... were you alone when you experienced this? Or were you with others also enjoying the mushroom fields? Did you set out with any sort of specific (spiritual) goal in mind? Or did that just... happen?
I was alone for my experience, and like you it was a long time ago in the '70's, and it did not lead to any sort of cravings or attachment to these sorts of drugs. I can still (intentionally) recall and relive much of the experience, right down to the goosebumps and visions/ connections of insight...
But I had also set out on my "journey" with a purpose in mind... I wasn't sure it was going to be successful or not, but it was definitely a "set up" in the fact that I planned the whole event and surrounding atmosphere to be conducive to the best possible experience. However, I did have prior experiences with this (mescalin) and other types of hallucinogens, but always with others around.
Also, I see this as the same as someone who partakes in "guided meditations" and other forms of consciously tapping into the unconscious. Like I said, no less valid, and IMO when it works- it works.
@Maryanne No, I was not alone. I was with a bunch of other hippies, most of who were there for the camping and getting stoned. I had been reading Castenada during the summer that year and somehow had gotten the idea that the mushrooms might be different from other hallucinogens that I had taken on many occasions as a teenager. Also, I was traveling around with a guy about my age who had come from a more spiritual background and family and had been meditating for years by that time. I, as did a number of others, considered him to be a teacher of sorts, since he was the first person that I had met who had any spiritual understanding other than Christians and such. So I was expecting to have some changes in my view and my life with his influence. It was the right combination of events. After having had some normal trips, laughing, seeing flowery hallucinations ect, something shifted. You know what that was like.
I have no problem with any variety of things for medicinal purposes.
I don't 100% follow the 5th precept, but I honestly prefer TNH's description of it, in which case, few of us follow it. It makes the most sense to me that way, in our current world so it is what I keep in mind: Aware of the suffering caused by unmindful consumption, I vow to cultivate good health, both physical and mental, for myself, my family, and my society by practicing mindful eating, drinking and consuming. I vow to ingest only items that preserve peace, well-being and joy in my body, in my consciousness, and in the collective body and consciousness of my family and society. I am determined not to use alcohol or any other intoxicant or to ingest foods or other items that contain toxins, such as certain TV programs, magazines, books, films and conversations. I am aware that to damage my body or my consciousness with these poisons is to betray my ancestors, my parents, my society and future generations. I will work to transform violence, fear, anger and confusion in myself and in society by practicing a diet for myself and for society. I understand that a proper diet is crucial for self-transformation and for the transformation of society.
That said, I don't trust psychedelic drugs, and I wouldn't use them for insight into my consciousness. I know too many people who've had really bad times on many of them, even having only tried them a handful of times, sometimes even only once. When I hear what they experienced and how unrelated to reality it was, I have a hard time believing one can (or should) trust insight that is more positive. I have studied Native American history quite a bit and I don't even believe everything in their other world experiences. They believe someone can go off for days on Vision quests and live alone with no food, no or very little water and hallucinate their way into what they should do with their lives? I just don't believe that to be either healthy, or valid. It, too me (based on what I've heard and learned of course) seems just as unreal as my ego telling me some of the absurd things it does. I wouldn't trust anything I "saw"while high on drugs as valid because what makes that experience more valid than the next person who experiences paranoia and bugs crawling all over them...which clearly didn't happen? It doesn't seem any more reliable to me than dreams, or tarot readings and other such things. I've dreamed I was a millionaire a few times. I dreamed my children were kidnapped. Now, I can attempt to decipher my dreams into what they might mean, but it hardly makes it reality.
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zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
I wouldn't deny that mind-altering drugs could provide an initial glimpse into something new-- and that could be very inspirational. However, I'm not sure how such an experience could be repeated, sustained and developed in the context of Buddhist practice.
The cultivation of wisdom and compassion is the key to practice--not running after some thing called "enlightenment," with or without the use drugs. In the meantime, awakening will take care of itself--fruit ripens in its own due time, so why chase after "it"?
If someone is into Buddhism in order to "get enlightened," how is that really any different from chasing after a job, money, sex, or any other desired thing? In the end it is reduced to just more of the same.
I agree with this and also what @lamaramadingdong said about a glimpse of the light under the door. Even assuming that you can compare a drug induced insight/experience to something like kensho (the zen version of a brief glimpse of enlightenment), the advice that Buddhism offers is not to dwell on it. Afterwards, chop wood, carry water, you know? You're never supposed to exalt or cling to your experiences. But this is how people who are into hallucinogens sometimes talk about it (I'm talking about people I know irl here, they generally aren't into Buddhism as well). They want to do it more. They want to experience that high again, but it is not sustainable. It is dependent on an intoxicant in your system and therefore only creates another attachment.
I have had one realization under similar circumstances and it was basically, "Wow, perception of reality is pretty dependent on the chemicals in our brain." Just an observation. I can't compare that to the experiences that some members describe here (unfortunately), but at the same time, I've known soooo many people who have taken hallucinogens and I don't think I have to tell you guys how rare that is because, yeah, most people just get high. Unless you're talking about MDMA, I have no personal experiences, but people say it's like that every time. There is an entire documentary on it on Netflix called The Spirit Molecule.
Its pretty safe to assume that insight or awakening is caused by changes in brain chemistry. So there are plants and fungus in the environment that we have evolved along side of, that contain certain chemicals that temporarily induce those changes and experiences. It seems to be hard for some people to accept. Maybe try to think of it a manifestation of Lokeshvara. Hiding in the environment, until with great compassion, guiding people toward the path.
There is light and life behind the doors of perception. The door is always open. The first step has nothing to do with smash and grab and everything with gentle giving in . . . Life will change your perceptions of reality. You and no chemical, body high etc will change life. The reason I am for research in medical psychedelics is to cure illness.
Buddhism is a cure once you have given up on delusory methods . . .
"Today, a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration – that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There's no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we're the imagination of ourselves."
The researchers had expected to see an increase in brain activity to explain the vivid visuals etc associated with a 'trip'.
In fact they found that brain activity and connectivity decreased - I think, as a meditator, this is not irrelevant.
Very important I'd say. It supports the idea that some drugs work by making the brain less active and efficient, thereby revealing new territory for people who usually live in their thoughts. Thus also the information from our senses would get less 'theorised' on the way to our awareness, and we would experience sensations more immediately. But this is all guesswork.
"Spiritual attainments" aside. Can it be considered skillful to do something that could potentially send you to jail? Is the temporary insight, if you wish to call it that, worth the risk of becoming a convicted felon? Here in Florida at least, more than 1 gram of LSD carries a minimum mandatory sentence of 3 years in prison! Of course that is just stupid! But, it's still the reality until drug laws change.
it's not just jail time, if you are a young person in the US and get certain drug crimes on your record, you are not eligible for federal financial aid for college. Not to mention employers who drug test are more and more common, and many of them are changing to hair testing rather than urine or blood testing. Drug chemicals in hair samples can remain for a year. You try LSD a couple times you might not be able to get the job you want 6 months later. Not worth it.
"Spiritual attainments" aside. Can it be considered skillful to do something that could potentially send you to jail? Is the temporary insight, if you wish to call it that, worth the risk of becoming a convicted felon? Here in Florida at least, more than 1 gram of LSD carries a minimum mandatory sentence of 3 years in prison! Of course that is just stupid! But, it's still the reality until drug laws change.
A gram is a whole lot of LSD. Back in the day, mushrooms were legal here. At first there were very few people who knew where to find them or could be bothered. In time a market stared to grow for them and more and more people began to show up each fall for the potential bonanza. The legal problems began with trespassing. Farmers were rightly concerned and angry to find sometimes dozens of people or more in their cow pastures. Tracking who knows what kinds of contaminants in, leaving garbage and breaking fences. The police became involved. There was some sporadic vigilante action. And the whole issue became a drug trade, rather than a few hippies trying to find themselves. Once the spotlight was on the problem it was not long before those common pasture mushrooms became a controlled substance and people were arrested for having them. Now, of course the gangs are controlling the production and distribution.
You try LSD a couple times you might not be able to get the job you want 6 months later. Not worth it.
Many moons ago, being in a local music scene, I've seen people doped up. I've known once-intelligent people become barely coherent, flushing their lives down the drain. Not a pretty sight to say the least.
Being in a supervisory position at a hospital, I certainly don't need drug users in my department. I need accuracy and clear thinking. Be here on time, sober, and ready to work.
Its pretty safe to assume that insight or awakening is caused by changes in brain chemistry. So there are plants and fungus in the environment that we have evolved along side of, that contain certain chemicals that temporarily induce those changes and experiences. It seems to be hard for some people to accept. Maybe try to think of it a manifestation of Lokeshvara. Hiding in the environment, until with great compassion, guiding people toward the path.
Hello:
That is incorrect.
To put it in a simple way: A drug can`t teach u how to speak, a fungus can`t give u insight into how the tongue does the work of putting words in your mouth.
In the same way, for buddhist insight u need a.- to develop a skill b.- EXPERIENCE!.
"Spiritual attainments" aside. Can it be considered skillful to do something that could potentially send you to jail? Is the temporary insight, if you wish to call it that, worth the risk of becoming a convicted felon? Here in Florida at least, more than 1 gram of LSD carries a minimum mandatory sentence of 3 years in prison! Of course that is just stupid! But, it's still the reality until drug laws change.
A gram is a whole lot of LSD.
That is not the case in Florida! By law it is measured not by the actual LSD content but also by the medium it is on. For example, the tab of paper, gel capsule or sugar cube, etc. If you had just one dose of LSD on one sugar cube, that is 3-4 grams according to the law because that is how much a sugar cube weighs. If you only had 2 sugar cubes, with only 2 doses total, you would now be facing a minimum mandatory prison sentence of 7 years! Because it is now more than 5 grams. Of course that is just stupid! But, it's still the reality of the situation. The history of how these laws came about to begin with is interesting, but that isn't going to stop them from sending you to prison. Is it skillful to expose yourself to the risk of a 7 year prison sentence for 2 doses of LSD? I personally don't see how it can be!
I can only speak from experience, but the only thing MJ ever did for me was extreme pleasure at natural and musical beauty along with munchies. When I try now I just become unable to think, probably from my schizophrenia or meds. Trungpa Rinpoche was anti-marijuana and mooji is anti-drug.
I can only speak from experience, but the only thing MJ ever did for me was extreme pleasure at natural and musical beauty along with munchies. When I try now I just become unable to think, probably from my schizophrenia or meds. Trungpa Rinpoche was anti-marijuana and mooji is anti-drug.
I have read research that suggests cannabis use increases chances of experiencing schizophrenia six-fold when smoked by individuals under the age of 18. The developing brain just can't handle it.
Other research ongoing with cannabis ironically indicates that it can be used to reduce psychotic states in people - even to treat schizophrenia.
Two different chemicals in cannabis vie with one another. One (THC) promotes psychosis and the other (CBD) reduces it
Breeding of the natural plants to produce THC high cannabis (skunk) may be behind an apparent rise in psychotic episodes reported in relation to cannabis use.
This is a perfect example of my thesis that what we lack in society in a mature relationship with ourselves and the many addictive substances we encounter.
Cannabis seems to reflect this 'good guy, bad guy' aspect of drugs very clearly.
PS @jeffrey when you said "I can only speak from experience, but the only thing MJ ever did for me was extreme pleasure at natural and musical beauty along with munchies." I thought you meant Michael Jackson - you obviously didn't.
"Spiritual attainments" aside. Can it be considered skillful to do something that could potentially send you to jail? Is the temporary insight, if you wish to call it that, worth the risk of becoming a convicted felon? Here in Florida at least, more than 1 gram of LSD carries a minimum mandatory sentence of 3 years in prison! Of course that is just stupid! But, it's still the reality until drug laws change.
A gram is a whole lot of LSD.
That is not the case in Florida! By law it is measured not by the actual LSD content but also by the medium it is on. For example, the tab of paper, gel capsule or sugar cube, etc. If you had just one dose of LSD on one sugar cube, that is 3-4 grams according to the law because that is how much a sugar cube weighs. If you only had 2 sugar cubes, with only 2 doses total, you would now be facing a minimum mandatory prison sentence of 7 years! Because it is now more than 5 grams. Of course that is just stupid! But, it's still the reality of the situation. The history of how these laws came about to begin with is interesting, but that isn't going to stop them from sending you to prison. Is it skillful to expose yourself to the risk of a 7 year prison sentence for 2 doses of LSD? I personally don't see how it can be!
That's interesting. We have a redneck running things in Ottawa right now who is taking us down that road with minimum mandatory sentencing. Personally I wouldn't take drugs if they were legal and they were giving them away. I don't think my kids would either but that's their choice at this point.
Its pretty safe to assume that insight or awakening is caused by changes in brain chemistry. So there are plants and fungus in the environment that we have evolved along side of, that contain certain chemicals that temporarily induce those changes and experiences. It seems to be hard for some people to accept. Maybe try to think of it a manifestation of Lokeshvara. Hiding in the environment, until with great compassion, guiding people toward the path.
Hello:
That is incorrect.
To put it in a simple way: A drug can`t teach u how to speak, a fungus can`t give u insight into how the tongue does the work of putting words in your mouth.
In the same way, for buddhist insight u need a.- to develop a skill b.- EXPERIENCE!.
Thanks for the input. No offence intended here. I said it before and I will say it again more clearly this time. No one can tell me that my insights, regardless of how and when they have been attained are invalid. I reserve the right to make that determination for myself.
No one can tell me that my insights, regardless of how and when they have been attained are invalid. I reserve the right to make that determination for myself.
Personally I do not trust my 'attained insights'. I would trust them even less on or caused by temporary induced or circumstantial aberrations.
However they might give me the impetus to not trust attained insights . . . :wave:
"My experience profoundly changed my life, both spiritually and intellectually- forever. It is because of that experience I know - really know - I am undoubtedly and indescribably 'connected' to all humanity and the universe in a spiritual way. And isn't that an undeniable aspect of any religious awareness?"
When I was a young cructacean with a fixed idea of reality, LSD broke that rigidity. It could have been broken by art, life, meditation, love, insight etc.
It is not true or helpful to suggest drug based mind alteration in the hope that it might be useful. It also might induce delusion and psychosis. Psychedelics are not safe, guaranteed or required. :wave:
It is not true or helpful to suggest drug based mind alteration in the hope that it might be useful. It also might induce delusion and psychosis. Psychedelics are not safe, guaranteed or required. :wave:
Ow!
Unfair @lobster - I have not suggested anywhere that people should take hallucinogenics.
I am noting that people who have report real insights that they trust enough to change their lives for good.
As I said it my opening post : "This isn't intended to be a discussion about 'drugs' and whether we should take them.
I am hoping for a sober discussion about the nature of consciousness."
Would you answer my question as to why you think certain 'insights' are untrustworthy?
If it's an insight it doesn't matter the circumstances surrounding it.
The safety and presumed efficacy of hallucinogenics aside, it is still based on the notion that enlightenment is some kind of blissed out WOW! moment that one experiences. Is that what enlightenment is, something that one can simply grab-- either through drugs or meditation?
Sheng-Yen relates two incidents of this notion of enlightenment "experiences"-- without the benefit of drugs-- to explain that enlightenment is not an "experience". With or without the use of drugs, it is still just the ego experiencing some other thing. One doesn't "get enlightened."
Sheng-Yen:
Suppose that after much practice you experience the feeling of disappearance of the self into enlightenment. Tremendous bliss wells up inside you, and you think, "Truly, my self has disappeared completely and I have entered enlightenment." Have you really entered enlightenment though? Since you still approach enlightenment with a sense of self, the final achievement is still unrealized. However, experiences like this are so powerful that they are likely to mislead even an experienced practitioner.
Once, during a retreat, a student told me that she didn't want to meditate anymore--she just wanted to talk. So I invited her to the interview room and said, "Fine, let's talk."
She said, "I'm very happy. It's as if, in one instant, the whole world brightened up. I looked out the window, and everything was so beautiful. The birds and flowers, everything, is just a part of myself. I feel very beautiful. I've gotten into it."
I asked her to tell me what she had gotten into. She said, "Isn't this what you call enlightenment?"
I told her she was just having illusions, and she became very unhappy and said, "I've made such tremendous progress, and now you tell me it's just an illusion."
I told her that it is precisely her great desire for enlightenment that creates such illusions. "Go back and continue to work hard," I said.
On another retreat, a participant did not show up for afternoon meditation. I sent a couple of people to look for him and after a long while they found him in the woods. He was extremely happy and brought back a small dried twig, which he very respectfully offered to me, saying, "I've gotten it!"
I took the twig and threw it out the window. He became upset, angry in fact, and complained that it was a precious thing that he had worked so hard to get. What do you think about this precious thing?
In both of these cases the students had worked hard and achieved a deep experience. But enlightenment is not a possession you can hold on to, as if it were a jewel. Sometimes the mind experiences something that it takes to be enlightenment, but it is just the ego in a very happy state.
the whole debate hinges on what enlightenment is. If it is an experience, then any drug will do. if it is an experience of no experience, no drug will do.
I, personally, never claimed to achieve "enlightenment". Not with, or without the use of any substance, meditation, prostrations, prayer, study or whatever. I claim only to have had a profoundly moving and long lasting "insight" and "understanding" as far as my place in this world and universe. I was 17 years old. I was not a Buddhist at that time and didn't adhere to any arbitrary rules or restrictions about "intoxication" or drugs, etc.
If as a Buddhist, one insists that to seek enlightenment is a fundamental waste of time, (and honestly, I don't wholly disagree with that notion), then why meditate? Why pray? Why delve into the suttras and other forms of religious instruction -- to what end? What is the point if every step we (think) we take forward, is in fact merely an 'illusion' ?
And who decides if another's idea of enlightenment is valid or not? You? me? A Buddhist monk from 300 yrs ago?
To me- the whole notion of true 'enlightenment' is just another koan. Think you are enlightened? Well then you're not. Seeking enlightenment? Well, then you're missing it. What is enlightenment? There is no definitive answer, only questions. If you DO reach enlightenment, remember you can't grasp it or sustain it.... blah blah blah...
This is the aspect of Buddhism that I have little patience for, nor desire to 'conquer'. But hey, that's just me... and that's why I prefer secular Buddhism in the form of the 4NT & 8FP as a foundation upon which to live my normal, everyday life as a wife, mother, daughter, friend and human. I'll leave the never-ending "enlightenment" dilemma to those who find that sort of thing useful in some way. But I would never presume to tell others what enlightenment is - or should be - for them.
When I was a young cructacean with a fixed idea of reality, LSD broke that rigidity. It could have been broken by art, life, meditation, love,
It could have been, but then maybe not. Kinda like losing your virginity. You can only ponder about how it might have happened differently. I can't be undone.
Its pretty safe to assume that insight or awakening is caused by changes in brain chemistry. So there are plants and fungus in the environment that we have evolved along side of, that contain certain chemicals that temporarily induce those changes and experiences. It seems to be hard for some people to accept. Maybe try to think of it a manifestation of Lokeshvara. Hiding in the environment, until with great compassion, guiding people toward the path.
Hello:
That is incorrect.
To put it in a simple way: A drug can`t teach u how to speak, a fungus can`t give u insight into how the tongue does the work of putting words in your mouth.
In the same way, for buddhist insight u need a.- to develop a skill b.- EXPERIENCE!.
Thanks for the input. No offence intended here. I said it before and I will say it again more clearly this time. No one can tell me that my insights, regardless of how and when they have been attained are invalid. I reserve the right to make that determination for myself.
Hi Robot :
Sorry I didnt read the part where u talked about your personal experience (maybe its in another post -_-) , i was just pointing out the general difference between drug insight and buddhist insight.
Again, I dont say there is no such thing as drug insight (the experience of experiencing different perceptions, the feelings of openess and empathy some drugs cause,dissociation and "not-self" experiences, so on..it im sure its a relevation to people, so it can be classified as Insight.
I just say the buddha was talking about a different and particular kind of insight. This are insights into HOW things work: how hindrances arise, how they cease, how craving looks like, how it arise, how it ceases, how thoughts arise, how they cease.
They just recollect different aspects of the experience.
@MaryAnne For me, I don't meditate or do any other practice as a means to an end. I do it as a way to better myself and my management of my life and relationships right now. If some day it makes me enlightened, well then bravo, lol. But it's not what I am after or what I even think about. Sometimes, I think some people (no one here in particular) want so badly to get enlightened so they can avoid rebirth into samsara because they suffer so much. Obviously in Buddhist study that is the end goal, but I think most of the people who are so focused on it are missing the point. The point, I think, is to practice so that you can live better today, so you aren't suffering every moment of every day or even some moments of every day. Not to strive for an end that maybe be decades, or lifetimes away and still miss the present. Sometimes it just seems like some Buddhists are like that. They are so concerned with getting enlightened that they are still stopping to recognize the present. I don't worry about what happens to me after I die. In a more far off place, I hope that by living well, that whatever happens after I die will be an okay experience. But I worry more about living well today because if I don't, what does it matter what happens when I die? What is the point of living if all you are doing is trying to die well? I hope to die well. But I'd rather live well, first.
The safety and presumed efficacy of hallucinogenics aside, it is still based on the notion that enlightenment is some kind of blissed out WOW! moment that one experiences. Is that what enlightenment is, something that one can simply grab-- either through drugs or meditation?
I don't think this is what we are talking about @riverflow.
Insight is common to all human beings - it is a seeing into the nature of things in a way that inevitably changes one's relationship with the world (for the better).
It happens in meditation, it happens in therapy sessions and it happens on hallucinogens.
This isn't a blissed-out 'wow' moment - research indicates that these insights on hallucinogens result long-term changes for the individual concerned.
It is important we understand why this happens - no?
This isn't a blissed-out 'wow' moment - research indicates that these insights on hallucinogens result long-term changes for the individual concerned.
Of the many people I have known in the past who have dropped acid, I've certainly seen long-term changes, but none of them have resulted in insight. Rather it has always been a turn for the worst. I could tell quite a few stories (not me), all of them resulting in intellectually-stunted people (these are of course, people for whom dropping acid was a habit, not just a one-off experience). And it also resulted in not very compassionate behaviour either. Insight without compassion isn't very insightful.
Of course, it is just me, but I don't want insight. I want to practice, and what happens happens. Insight will come in its own due time.
Back in 2001, prior to much exposure even to Buddhism, I had "an experience," one which I still would not be able to put into words. The best I can say was that there was a sense of peace. (ironically, it was an experience that helped sever my ties to Christianity because it was something "bigger" than God) I had been playing my flute in the midst of some trees out in the country. I'll never forget that day.
However, it was just an experience. I wouldn't want to replicate the experience or something like it, even if I somehow could do so. It was an experience that happened to me which I cannot explain, but it was a gift to me in a way. I have a sense of gratitude for that. Wanting "more of that" would imply a sense of ungratefulness.
I don't want a "smash and grab on the Transcendental"-- it is something that one receives, like grace.
Back in 2001, prior to much exposure even to Buddhism, I had "an experience," one which I still would not be able to put into words. The best I can say was that there was a sense of peace. (ironically, it was an experience that helped sever my ties to Christianity because it was something "bigger" than God) I had been playing my flute in the midst of some trees out in the country. I'll never forget that day.
However, it was just an experience. I wouldn't want to replicate the experience or something like it, even if I somehow could do so. It was an experience that happened to me which I cannot explain, but it was a gift to me in a way. I have a sense of gratitude for that. Wanting "more of that" would imply a sense of ungratefulness.
I don't want a "smash and grab on the Transcendental"-- it is something that one receives, like grace.
Yes, that I can appreciate.
Your experience sounds profound - 'bigger than God' - I like that.
The reason my teacher used the words 'smash and grab on the Transcendental' was to imply that one hadn't earned this experience but bought it from someone, and there was a price to pay.
People who develop habits pay a terrible price and I don't want this to happen any more than anyone else - truly.
I also agree that 'wanting more of that' is ungrateful in a way. It is graceless you are right.
But when I read of the profound affects that some hallucinogens, wisely administered (and in clinical cases this is normally associated by a counselling session) have on people in real suffering; depression, alcoholism, PTSD, even psychosis I am curious.
As someone who has developed insight myself through years of sober practice I don't doubt the vivid similarities some people have experienced between 'my' insights and 'theirs', despite the fact they may never have sat to meditate.
Thanks for that story.
As an aside, seeing as you play the flute - have you seen Nathan 'Flutebox' Lee - incredible!
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zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
It is not true or helpful to suggest drug based mind alteration in the hope that it might be useful. It also might induce delusion and psychosis. Psychedelics are not safe, guaranteed or required. :wave:
Ow!
Unfair @lobster - I have not suggested anywhere that people should take hallucinogenics.
I am noting that people who have report real insights that they trust enough to change their lives for good.
As I said it my opening post : "This isn't intended to be a discussion about 'drugs' and whether we should take them.
I am hoping for a sober discussion about the nature of consciousness."
Would you answer my question as to why you think certain 'insights' are untrustworthy?
If it's an insight it doesn't matter the circumstances surrounding it.
It's insight.
No?
Hey now, you can't have a forum topic amassing all of the great and awesome things that have happened to users on drugs and think that this doesn't support the use of drugs. That's a little shortsighted, don't you think? I think @lobster 's post needed to be said just to keep it clear. Don't forget that there are quite a few minors (and probably impressionable adults, lol) that frequent this forum.
I've met many many people who have had 'bad trips' on drugs, but never (aside from this forum) have I ever met anyone who believed that they had a truly spiritual experience. Well... scratch that... remember the guy I told you about that is messed up for life from LSD? Well, he told me that during his trip, it was revealed to him that the entire world existed for his own purpose. That he was the reason for me and everything around him. He also believed that he could influence the world to get what he wanted, since he was technically its God. This actually marked the beginning of the end of our friendship. I couldn't be friends with a person who didn't believe in other people's free will. How could you? It seemed an incredibly dangerous belief to hold, but I could not negate his experience. When I tried, our conversation went in circles and he basically just told me I was an illusion. Heh... strange days.
Hey now, you can't have a forum topic amassing all of the great and awesome things that have happened to users on drugs and think that this doesn't support the use of drugs. That's a little shortsighted, don't you think? I think @lobster 's post needed to be said just to keep it clear. Don't forget that there are quite a few minors (and probably impressionable adults, lol) that frequent this forum.
Hey @zombiegirl - I do take your point, perhaps I was a little crabby to @lobster.
However, we must be very careful to not misrepresent each other on this forum (especially on such a topic) I have been very careful NOT to suggest people take drugs OR to deny their dangers (please see above posts).
Hence my firm response to @lobster when he implied otherwise.
I began this thread saying:
"This isn't intended to be a discussion about 'drugs' and whether we should take them.
I am hoping for a sober discussion about the nature of consciousness."
So I am a little disappointed to see you describe this thread as "amassing all of the great and awesome things that have happened to users on drugs."
Your assessment unsubtly misrepresents this thread and those that have contributed to it.
This is a subject we must be able to discuss without wilfully misrepresenting one another - agreed?
Comments
I don't mind if people use drugs recreationally. I only object to the notion that they are somehow aligned with the path of enlightenment. Drugs are fun, this I understand, I just don't believe people when they say they use them for purely spiritual purposes. It makes my bullshit meter go off. Any realizations learned arise from a condition that is not even comparable to regular life and therefore, I don't see how it can possibly apply.
This makes sense to me because I cannot see how weed, say, can act in an organised and beneficial way on our complex brain processes, but can easily see how it might disrupt them.
These are all glitches in the matrix. To break through we will have to accept who we are. We will have to realise who we are. How?
There are no shortcuts. Just an ass on a cushion . . .
There are no shortcuts. Put your shoulder to the wheel and get to work.
Recent research on psilocybin does suggest that individuals do have profound insight experiences that change their lives in a powerful way.
"At the time, the volunteers reported mystical experiences — typically described as a "sense of unity" — in which the confusion of the world and of competing value systems came together in a coherent whole. These were not described in recreational terms, but as profoundly meaningful spiritual events. Fourteen months later, over half reported substantial increases in life satisfaction and positive behaviour, while no long-term negative effects were reported."
These appear to be life-altering experiences that have much in common with classical mystical experiences described throughout the ages,"
I can understand that meditators may be skeptical of the use of hallucinogens to gain insight but the evidence is there.
These appear to be life-altering experiences that have much in common with classical mystical experiences described throughout the ages,""
This is very true. It has been my personal experience.
It doesn't matter to me if those with an anti-"drug" mindset wish to believe this is impossible, or a delusion, or merely the 'rationalizations' of the drug-addicted or addled. I am neither drug dependent nor addled, thank you.
My experience profoundly changed my life, both spiritually and intellectually- forever.
It is because of that experience I know - really know - I am undoubtedly and indescribably 'connected' to all humanity and the universe in a spiritual way. And isn't that an undeniable aspect of any religious awareness?
IMO there are two kinds of understanding when it comes to religious or spiritual matters-
1. the intellectual understanding; reading and comprehending the scriptures, the suttras, the dogma, etc., and
2. the spiritual understanding; the knowing and feeling and living Truth of it all at your very inner core ....
For some people, in some instances, under some circumstances, that CAN happen when using certain substances to unlock the barriers that block the modern, spiritually disconnected conscious mind from 'seeing' what the unconscious mind knows - for thousands and thousands of years.
I am not claiming this is any sort of "short cut" to spiritual awareness, or Buddhahood, or even that it should be routinely pursued as such. But, when it DOES happen, however it happens, it is no less valid a doorway than any other life-changing and profoundly moving experience others have mentioned; such as near death experiences, extreme pain, the miracle of birth, etc. To deny one is possible, you should deny ALL are possible. And to deny it all is, well, pretty darn arrogant, no?
At the the time I didn't meet anyone else who shared those experiences. The others got high. Because of the apparent rarity of any experience other than a "trip", either good or bad, from eating the mushrooms, I would never recommend that someone should try them.
It's been many years since I have wasted my time trying to explain what I saw to anyone.
Like @Maryanne I haven't looked for an explanation of or confirmation that my experiences were real or meaningful.
I still go back to the area where those things occurred to walk or sit.
I was alone for my experience, and like you it was a long time ago in the '70's, and it did not lead to any sort of cravings or attachment to these sorts of drugs.
I can still (intentionally) recall and relive much of the experience, right down to the goosebumps and visions/ connections of insight...
But I had also set out on my "journey" with a purpose in mind...
I wasn't sure it was going to be successful or not, but it was definitely a "set up" in the fact that I planned the whole event and surrounding atmosphere to be conducive to the best possible experience. However, I did have prior experiences with this (mescalin) and other types of hallucinogens, but always with others around.
Also, I see this as the same as someone who partakes in "guided meditations" and other forms of consciously tapping into the unconscious. Like I said, no less valid, and IMO when it works- it works.
I feel that our 'war on drugs' is terribly deluded. The problem is addiction, not drugs (and Shakyamuni, was after all, a recovered addict).
Society would benefit from a more mature relationship with such experiences and take people who have had them more seriously so thanks for your candour.
Your experience has been much like my experience.
The cultivation of wisdom and compassion is the key to practice--not running after some thing called "enlightenment," with or without the use drugs. In the meantime, awakening will take care of itself--fruit ripens in its own due time, so why chase after "it"?
If someone is into Buddhism in order to "get enlightened," how is that really any different from chasing after a job, money, sex, or any other desired thing? In the end it is reduced to just more of the same.
No, I was not alone. I was with a bunch of other hippies, most of who were there for the camping and getting stoned.
I had been reading Castenada during the summer that year and somehow had gotten the idea that the mushrooms might be different from other hallucinogens that I had taken on many occasions as a teenager.
Also, I was traveling around with a guy about my age who had come from a more spiritual background and family and had been meditating for years by that time. I, as did a number of others, considered him to be a teacher of sorts, since he was the first person that I had met who had any spiritual understanding other than Christians and such. So I was expecting to have some changes in my view and my life with his influence. It was the right combination of events.
After having had some normal trips, laughing, seeing flowery hallucinations ect, something shifted.
You know what that was like.
I don't 100% follow the 5th precept, but I honestly prefer TNH's description of it, in which case, few of us follow it. It makes the most sense to me that way, in our current world so it is what I keep in mind:
Aware of the suffering caused by unmindful consumption, I vow to cultivate good health, both physical and mental, for myself, my family, and my society by practicing mindful eating, drinking and consuming. I vow to ingest only items that preserve peace, well-being and joy in my body, in my consciousness, and in the collective body and consciousness of my family and society. I am determined not to use alcohol or any other intoxicant or to ingest foods or other items that contain toxins, such as certain TV programs, magazines, books, films and conversations. I am aware that to damage my body or my consciousness with these poisons is to betray my ancestors, my parents, my society and future generations. I will work to transform violence, fear, anger and confusion in myself and in society by practicing a diet for myself and for society. I understand that a proper diet is crucial for self-transformation and for the transformation of society.
That said, I don't trust psychedelic drugs, and I wouldn't use them for insight into my consciousness. I know too many people who've had really bad times on many of them, even having only tried them a handful of times, sometimes even only once. When I hear what they experienced and how unrelated to reality it was, I have a hard time believing one can (or should) trust insight that is more positive. I have studied Native American history quite a bit and I don't even believe everything in their other world experiences. They believe someone can go off for days on Vision quests and live alone with no food, no or very little water and hallucinate their way into what they should do with their lives? I just don't believe that to be either healthy, or valid. It, too me (based on what I've heard and learned of course) seems just as unreal as my ego telling me some of the absurd things it does. I wouldn't trust anything I "saw"while high on drugs as valid because what makes that experience more valid than the next person who experiences paranoia and bugs crawling all over them...which clearly didn't happen? It doesn't seem any more reliable to me than dreams, or tarot readings and other such things. I've dreamed I was a millionaire a few times. I dreamed my children were kidnapped. Now, I can attempt to decipher my dreams into what they might mean, but it hardly makes it reality.
I have had one realization under similar circumstances and it was basically, "Wow, perception of reality is pretty dependent on the chemicals in our brain." Just an observation. I can't compare that to the experiences that some members describe here (unfortunately), but at the same time, I've known soooo many people who have taken hallucinogens and I don't think I have to tell you guys how rare that is because, yeah, most people just get high. Unless you're talking about MDMA, I have no personal experiences, but people say it's like that every time. There is an entire documentary on it on Netflix called The Spirit Molecule.
The researchers had expected to see an increase in brain activity to explain the vivid visuals etc associated with a 'trip'.
In fact they found that brain activity and connectivity decreased - I think, as a meditator, this is not irrelevant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_on_meditation
Its pretty safe to assume that insight or awakening is caused by changes in brain chemistry.
So there are plants and fungus in the environment that we have evolved along side of, that contain certain chemicals that temporarily induce those changes and experiences.
It seems to be hard for some people to accept.
Maybe try to think of it a manifestation of Lokeshvara. Hiding in the environment, until with great compassion, guiding people toward the path.
The door is always open. The first step has nothing to do with smash and grab and everything with gentle giving in . . .
Life will change your perceptions of reality. You and no chemical, body high etc will change life.
The reason I am for research in medical psychedelics is to cure illness.
Buddhism is a cure once you have given up on delusory methods . . .
"Today, a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration – that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There's no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we're the imagination of ourselves."
Back in the day, mushrooms were legal here. At first there were very few people who knew where to find them or could be bothered. In time a market stared to grow for them and more and more people began to show up each fall for the potential bonanza.
The legal problems began with trespassing. Farmers were rightly concerned and angry to find sometimes dozens of people or more in their cow pastures. Tracking who knows what kinds of contaminants in, leaving garbage and breaking fences.
The police became involved. There was some sporadic vigilante action. And the whole issue became a drug trade, rather than a few hippies trying to find themselves.
Once the spotlight was on the problem it was not long before those common pasture mushrooms became a controlled substance and people were arrested for having them. Now, of course the gangs are controlling the production and distribution.
Being in a supervisory position at a hospital, I certainly don't need drug users in my department. I need accuracy and clear thinking. Be here on time, sober, and ready to work.
You don't want to take hallucinogenics and then turn up for work as an air traffic controller do you?
I think alcohol is probably the most pernicious addiction in this respect.
That is incorrect.
To put it in a simple way: A drug can`t teach u how to speak, a fungus can`t give u insight into how the tongue does the work of putting words in your mouth.
In the same way, for buddhist insight u need a.- to develop a skill b.- EXPERIENCE!.
Other research ongoing with cannabis ironically indicates that it can be used to reduce psychotic states in people - even to treat schizophrenia.
Two different chemicals in cannabis vie with one another. One (THC) promotes psychosis and the other (CBD) reduces it
Breeding of the natural plants to produce THC high cannabis (skunk) may be behind an apparent rise in psychotic episodes reported in relation to cannabis use.
This is a perfect example of my thesis that what we lack in society in a mature relationship with ourselves and the many addictive substances we encounter.
Cannabis seems to reflect this 'good guy, bad guy' aspect of drugs very clearly.
PS @jeffrey when you said "I can only speak from experience, but the only thing MJ ever did for me was extreme pleasure at natural and musical beauty along with munchies." I thought you meant Michael Jackson - you obviously didn't.
Personally I wouldn't take drugs if they were legal and they were giving them away. I don't think my kids would either but that's their choice at this point.
Thanks for the input.
No offence intended here. I said it before and I will say it again more clearly this time.
No one can tell me that my insights, regardless of how and when they have been attained are invalid. I reserve the right to make that determination for myself.
However they might give me the impetus to not trust attained insights . . . :wave:
What would you say of @MaryAnne 's experience that she reported?
That she not 'trust' this?
That it's not true or helpful?
@MaryAnne ;
"My experience profoundly changed my life, both spiritually and intellectually- forever.
It is because of that experience I know - really know - I am undoubtedly and indescribably 'connected' to all humanity and the universe in a spiritual way. And isn't that an undeniable aspect of any religious awareness?"
It could have been broken by art, life, meditation, love, insight etc.
It is not true or helpful to suggest drug based mind alteration in the hope that it might be useful. It also might induce delusion and psychosis. Psychedelics are not safe, guaranteed or required.
:wave:
Unfair @lobster - I have not suggested anywhere that people should take hallucinogenics.
I am noting that people who have report real insights that they trust enough to change their lives for good.
As I said it my opening post : "This isn't intended to be a discussion about 'drugs' and whether we should take them.
I am hoping for a sober discussion about the nature of consciousness."
Would you answer my question as to why you think certain 'insights' are untrustworthy?
If it's an insight it doesn't matter the circumstances surrounding it.
It's insight.
No?
Sheng-Yen relates two incidents of this notion of enlightenment "experiences"-- without the benefit of drugs-- to explain that enlightenment is not an "experience". With or without the use of drugs, it is still just the ego experiencing some other thing. One doesn't "get enlightened."
Sheng-Yen:
Suppose that after much practice you experience the feeling of disappearance of the self into enlightenment. Tremendous bliss wells up inside you, and you think, "Truly, my self has disappeared completely and I have entered enlightenment." Have you really entered enlightenment though? Since you still approach enlightenment with a sense of self, the final achievement is still unrealized. However, experiences like this are so powerful that they are likely to mislead even an experienced practitioner.
Once, during a retreat, a student told me that she didn't want to meditate anymore--she just wanted to talk. So I invited her to the interview room and said, "Fine, let's talk."
She said, "I'm very happy. It's as if, in one instant, the whole world brightened up. I looked out the window, and everything was so beautiful. The birds and flowers, everything, is just a part of myself. I feel very beautiful. I've gotten into it."
I asked her to tell me what she had gotten into. She said, "Isn't this what you call enlightenment?"
I told her she was just having illusions, and she became very unhappy and said, "I've made such tremendous progress, and now you tell me it's just an illusion."
I told her that it is precisely her great desire for enlightenment that creates such illusions. "Go back and continue to work hard," I said.
On another retreat, a participant did not show up for afternoon meditation. I sent a couple of people to look for him and after a long while they found him in the woods. He was extremely happy and brought back a small dried twig, which he very respectfully offered to me, saying, "I've gotten it!"
I took the twig and threw it out the window. He became upset, angry in fact, and complained that it was a precious thing that he had worked so hard to get. What do you think about this precious thing?
In both of these cases the students had worked hard and achieved a deep experience. But enlightenment is not a possession you can hold on to, as if it were a jewel. Sometimes the mind experiences something that it takes to be enlightenment, but it is just the ego in a very happy state.
~ Sheng-Yen, Subtle Wisdom: Understanding Suffering, Cultivating Compassion Through Ch'an Buddhism
I claim only to have had a profoundly moving and long lasting "insight" and "understanding" as far as my place in this world and universe. I was 17 years old. I was not a Buddhist at that time and didn't adhere to any arbitrary rules or restrictions about "intoxication" or drugs, etc.
If as a Buddhist, one insists that to seek enlightenment is a fundamental waste of time, (and honestly, I don't wholly disagree with that notion), then why meditate? Why pray? Why delve into the suttras and other forms of religious instruction -- to what end? What is the point if every step we (think) we take forward, is in fact merely an 'illusion' ?
And who decides if another's idea of enlightenment is valid or not? You? me? A Buddhist monk from 300 yrs ago?
To me- the whole notion of true 'enlightenment' is just another koan.
Think you are enlightened? Well then you're not.
Seeking enlightenment? Well, then you're missing it.
What is enlightenment? There is no definitive answer, only questions.
If you DO reach enlightenment, remember you can't grasp it or sustain it.... blah blah blah...
This is the aspect of Buddhism that I have little patience for, nor desire to 'conquer'.
But hey, that's just me... and that's why I prefer secular Buddhism in the form of the 4NT & 8FP as a foundation upon which to live my normal, everyday life as a wife, mother, daughter, friend and human.
I'll leave the never-ending "enlightenment" dilemma to those who find that sort of thing useful in some way. But I would never presume to tell others what enlightenment is - or should be - for them.
::: shrugs:::
It could have been broken by art, life, meditation, love,
It could have been, but then maybe not. Kinda like losing your virginity. You can only ponder about how it might have happened differently. I can't be undone.
It's not insight if you can't trust it.
Sorry I didnt read the part where u talked about your personal experience (maybe its in another post -_-) , i was just pointing out the general difference between drug insight and buddhist insight.
Again, I dont say there is no such thing as drug insight (the experience of experiencing different perceptions, the feelings of openess and empathy some drugs cause,dissociation and "not-self" experiences, so on..it im sure its a relevation to people, so it can be classified as Insight.
I just say the buddha was talking about a different and particular kind of insight. This are insights into HOW things work: how hindrances arise, how they cease, how craving looks like, how it arise, how it ceases, how thoughts arise, how they cease.
They just recollect different aspects of the experience.
Insight is common to all human beings - it is a seeing into the nature of things in a way that inevitably changes one's relationship with the world (for the better).
It happens in meditation, it happens in therapy sessions and it happens on hallucinogens.
This isn't a blissed-out 'wow' moment - research indicates that these insights on hallucinogens result long-term changes for the individual concerned.
It is important we understand why this happens - no?
Of course, it is just me, but I don't want insight. I want to practice, and what happens happens. Insight will come in its own due time.
However, it was just an experience. I wouldn't want to replicate the experience or something like it, even if I somehow could do so. It was an experience that happened to me which I cannot explain, but it was a gift to me in a way. I have a sense of gratitude for that. Wanting "more of that" would imply a sense of ungratefulness.
I don't want a "smash and grab on the Transcendental"-- it is something that one receives, like grace.
But I don't think enlightenment is a single experience. How big is the sky?
Your experience sounds profound - 'bigger than God' - I like that.
The reason my teacher used the words 'smash and grab on the Transcendental' was to imply that one hadn't earned this experience but bought it from someone, and there was a price to pay.
People who develop habits pay a terrible price and I don't want this to happen any more than anyone else - truly.
I also agree that 'wanting more of that' is ungrateful in a way. It is graceless you are right.
But when I read of the profound affects that some hallucinogens, wisely administered (and in clinical cases this is normally associated by a counselling session) have on people in real suffering; depression, alcoholism, PTSD, even psychosis I am curious.
As someone who has developed insight myself through years of sober practice I don't doubt the vivid similarities some people have experienced between 'my' insights and 'theirs', despite the fact they may never have sat to meditate.
Thanks for that story.
As an aside, seeing as you play the flute - have you seen Nathan 'Flutebox' Lee - incredible!
I've met many many people who have had 'bad trips' on drugs, but never (aside from this forum) have I ever met anyone who believed that they had a truly spiritual experience. Well... scratch that... remember the guy I told you about that is messed up for life from LSD? Well, he told me that during his trip, it was revealed to him that the entire world existed for his own purpose. That he was the reason for me and everything around him. He also believed that he could influence the world to get what he wanted, since he was technically its God. This actually marked the beginning of the end of our friendship. I couldn't be friends with a person who didn't believe in other people's free will. How could you? It seemed an incredibly dangerous belief to hold, but I could not negate his experience. When I tried, our conversation went in circles and he basically just told me I was an illusion. Heh... strange days.
However, we must be very careful to not misrepresent each other on this forum (especially on such a topic) I have been very careful NOT to suggest people take drugs OR to deny their dangers (please see above posts).
Hence my firm response to @lobster when he implied otherwise.
I began this thread saying:
"This isn't intended to be a discussion about 'drugs' and whether we should take them.
I am hoping for a sober discussion about the nature of consciousness."
So I am a little disappointed to see you describe this thread as "amassing all of the great and awesome things that have happened to users on drugs."
Your assessment unsubtly misrepresents this thread and those that have contributed to it.
This is a subject we must be able to discuss without wilfully misrepresenting one another - agreed?