Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Examples: Monday, today, last week, Mar 26, 3/26/04
Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.

Dharma studies in Prisons and Prison Reformation

sovasova delocalized fractyllic harmonizing Veteran
Hello Everyone!

I am very interested in working toward prison reformation here where I live in the US. There are some prisons in the world where inmates are treated like people, like this one on Bastoy island in Norway, and their relapse rate into a life of crime is very low! http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/feb/25/norwegian-prison-inmates-treated-like-people

"Every type of offender, including men convicted of murder or rape, may be accepted, so long as they fit the criteria, the main one being a determination to live a crime-free life on release."

This is very fundamental and important.

So far I am thinking that I would like to go visit this prison in Norway, visit some prisons around the US and around the world to do some research, and come up with ways we can harmonize the US prison system into a beautiful atmosphere of recuperation and dignity, instead of the wretched state of affairs at current. Please send waves of support if you can, I am very ambitious about this.

The reason I think this is so important is because we must hold our ideals high. In societal-speak I would like to point to the model of the Commune. Communes are most excellent communities of superior harmony, often growing their own food and being very sufficient on their own and community oriented. Many people "escape" the buffles of our "civilization" to live fulfilling and wholesome lives in communes, and to me this level of living, when it is expanded to include the whole of humanity, is what many refer to as "Utopia"

If the highest rung of the ladder is an idealized Utopia, the prison system in the US currently functions as the bottom rung, the catch of the funnel, the gutter.

This gutter can become a place of poise and equilibrium, a place where people who have "fallen off the face of the earth" by committing some seemingly unforgivable action, can come back to human nature, and be nourished to grow and love and be loved. The aim of this spillway should really be the top of the ladder. That is, to successfully orient prison culture to be of Benefit to outside-the-prison culture; for far too often does an inmate leave and no sooner is she or he dropped back into the agonizing loop.


There are some spots I feel that are most pivotal in prison reform:

Culture. When a prison is constructed its atmosphere is established through both the architecture (how it is designed, how communities are established), and the first generation of inmates to go through this gauntlet. If the culture starts on a positive, recuperative, healthy note, this can be maintained and even strengthened through successive iterations of the prison.

Ratio. Prisons typically have many inmates and few stabilized people. Shifting the ratio of "good to good-not-yet-discovered" people can really accelerate the process of healing and educating.


These are some thoughts from this morning. Please contribute if you are sincerely interested in the welfare of the myriad inmates subject to harsh conditions, and even harsher proclivities. If we affect positive change in the lowest rung of the ladder, if the gutter improves remarkably and substantially, the whole ladder will benefit. So many countries base their judicial standards on those the US, and with helpful changes to the US system, the whole world will benefit. Humanity at large will benefit.

Already there is a movement called the Prison Dharma Network, where people start meditation groups and Dharma book clubs in prisons. I have been very moved by their work. One quote " I have shed many of my negative identities" really touched me to the point of tears. It is nigh impossible to imagine what sort of life one goes through to end up in prison, and to think that there is so little we do to help pull people out of the womb of poisonous snakes breaks heart.

http://www.prisondharmanetwork.net


Please send your support. I thank you all in advance. Namaste and Arigatou.
karastiseeker242riverflowJohn_SpencerDaltheJigsawZeropersonGlowlobsterkarmabluessndymornFullCircle
«1

Comments

  • Hey @sova - amazingly important thing to get involved in.

    Have you heard of this organsisation in the UK that provide Buddhist 'chaplaincy' for prisoners.

    Named after Angulimala - you know the guy with all the fingers round his neck.

    You are entering a kind of hell realm working with prisoners - my dad used to work as a probation officer with ex-offenders and he would come home white-faced every time he had to visit a client in prison...

    Ksitigarbha would be proud of you!
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    I certainly have no problem with reforming prisons.

    But, have you ever been to one? I have. Many of guys in prison are not people who have made a mistake. Many are the worst gang members in the nation. So I actually would suggest that you get involved in working with gangs (as one example) out in the community. Then you would have some concept of the kind of people you are working with. I've had just a taste of it, and it scared the shit of me.

    Also, American prisons are not the bottom rung. Suggest you read up on prisons in the third world, or even a "rapidly industrializing nation" such as Thailand.

    Another place for you to start might be to help ex-cons once they are out of prison. My nephew was an ex-con...and I was never told why, and minded my own business. But he never could get a job after being released, and if he did somehow manage to do so, would get fired as soon as they found out he had been an ex-con.

    You want to do something very noble. But if you actually get involved with the people involved, I hate to think how many time you are gonna shit your pants. So I would suggest to start with something more do-able than reforming the entire prison system.
    DakiniJeffrey
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    A buddy of mine, Kobutsu Malone was, for some time a Zen Buddhist chaplain who visited prisons. He is the author of Prison Chaplaincy Guidelines for Zen Buddhism: A Sourcebook for Prison Chaplains, Administrators and Security Personnel.

    And if Bastoy holds some interest, the movie tale of an insurrection there is pretty good. It's called "King of Devil's Island."
  • Check out "The Dhamma Brothers". Available on Netflix.
    riverflowrivercanekarmablues
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    I'm not sure if I'd say "many"of the prisoners are the worst gang members. On a federal level, only 8% of offenders are violent offenders. On a state level, about 50%. Most of the rest are in prison due to recidivism for drug and property crimes (which are often related to drug usage). A lot of recidivism comes from being unable to successfully join society and from things that happen while they are in prison (notably the large % of prisoners who are raped and/or pressured into sex). The US incarcerates more adults, and more youth, than anyone on the planet. Pretty sad. At one point I wanted to work with troubled youth within intervention programs but once I had my own kids I found it was not something I could do and still go home to my family.

    @sova many good wishes and blessings to you. As you go through the process, remember to protect yourself, not merely physically but mentally. I will be very interested to follow your process. My state is one that allows incarceration beyond judicial sentence for sex crimes, so people finish their prison sentence and then go to sex offender treatment (which is really just another prison) until they are deemed releasable....but in more than 20 years only one person has been released. I worked at their main facility a number of years ago and majored in criminology, so I follow your mission with both Buddhist and study interest. I hope it goes well and I hope you can bring some change. At this point, even small changes will have huge impacts. I fear much of the problem we see in our prisons are a symptom of our large societal problems, so it won't be an easy mission on your part. I wish you well. Good for you for doing something to make changes.
    riverflowJohn_Spencer
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    In my opinion, the prison system is pretty heavily invested in its current form money-wise, power-wise and the social climate is one of judgement and punishment rather than reform. I think its a very big hill to climb if not altogether impossible to reform from the top down.

    As you pointed out in your OP there are many dharma organizations doing prison outreach and prisons are obligated, if not happy to allow such religious programs, into their walls. These efforts have a definite and immediate impact and I feel would be a better place to put your energy.

    Also, seeing practical benefits of helping prisoners will go a lot farther than offering up studies or examples from Socialist! countries.
    vinlyn
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    person said:

    In my opinion, the prison system is pretty heavily invested in its current form money-wise, power-wise and the social climate is one of judgement and punishment rather than reform. I think its a very big hill to climb if not altogether impossible to reform from the top down.

    What's alarming is the privatization of the prison industry, turning the warehousing of people into a for-profit business. With that, an incentive arises to incarcerate more and more people to grow the business.

    rivercane
  • karasti said:

    I'm not sure if I'd say "many"of the prisoners are the worst gang members. On a federal level, only 8% of offenders are violent offenders. On a state level, about 50%.

    He said "many" not "most." 8% of many is still many. :-)

    I've been training to work as a facilitator in the Alternatives to Violence program, which teaches prisoners non-violent ways of resolving conflict. It is not dharma, but the OP may want to look into it. It has the potential to reach many more people.

    Most of what I know about prison issues I learned from the NYS prisoner justice group. There is probably a similar group in your state.
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    edited May 2013
    No, he said many of the people in prison are the country's worst gang members. There most certainly are gang members in prison. I wouldn't say that their population constitutes a designation of "many." That'll also vary widely depending on where the prisons are. Chicago/Detroit and CA have high gang populations, compared to most other areas. You'll see a much higher # of gang members in Soledad prison in CA than you will in ND State Pen in Bismarck, ND. No doubt about it gangs are an issue, both on the street and in prison, but I just thought it was worth mentioning that it's a misrepresentation to say that overall, many prisoners are the country's worst gang members. In most states, the vast majority of incarcerations are due to drug and property crimes, around 60-70%. Another 25% for violent crimes, about half of which are for physical assault, another 5% for robbery. That leaves around 8% of prisoners who are in prison for murder, manslaughter, or forcible rape. Not that 8% isn't too much when you consider the crime, of course. Anyhow, it's a common misconception (and again, it varies by prison location) that most or even many people in prison are violent criminals. It's not true. The remaining 5 or so % of people in prison are there for things such a probationary weapons violations, repeated DUIs and so on.
  • jlljll Veteran
    have you heard of robina courtin or dhamma brothers?

    they provide buddhist service for prisoners.
    sova said:

    Hello Everyone!

    I am very interested in working toward prison reformation here where I live in the US. There are some prisons in the world where inmates are treated like people, like this one on Bastoy island in Norway, and their relapse rate into a life of crime is very low! http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/feb/25/norwegian-prison-inmates-treated-like-people

    "Every type of offender, including men convicted of murder or rape, may be accepted, so long as they fit the criteria, the main one being a determination to live a crime-free life on release."

    This is very fundamental and important.

    So far I am thinking that I would like to go visit this prison in Norway, visit some prisons around the US and around the world to do some research, and come up with ways we can harmonize the US prison system into a beautiful atmosphere of recuperation and dignity, instead of the wretched state of affairs at current. Please send waves of support if you can, I am very ambitious about this.

    The reason I think this is so important is because we must hold our ideals high. In societal-speak I would like to point to the model of the Commune. Communes are most excellent communities of superior harmony, often growing their own food and being very sufficient on their own and community oriented. Many people "escape" the buffles of our "civilization" to live fulfilling and wholesome lives in communes, and to me this level of living, when it is expanded to include the whole of humanity, is what many refer to as "Utopia"

    If the highest rung of the ladder is an idealized Utopia, the prison system in the US currently functions as the bottom rung, the catch of the funnel, the gutter.

    This gutter can become a place of poise and equilibrium, a place where people who have "fallen off the face of the earth" by committing some seemingly unforgivable action, can come back to human nature, and be nourished to grow and love and be loved. The aim of this spillway should really be the top of the ladder. That is, to successfully orient prison culture to be of Benefit to outside-the-prison culture; for far too often does an inmate leave and no sooner is she or he dropped back into the agonizing loop.


    There are some spots I feel that are most pivotal in prison reform:

    Culture. When a prison is constructed its atmosphere is established through both the architecture (how it is designed, how communities are established), and the first generation of inmates to go through this gauntlet. If the culture starts on a positive, recuperative, healthy note, this can be maintained and even strengthened through successive iterations of the prison.

    Ratio. Prisons typically have many inmates and few stabilized people. Shifting the ratio of "good to good-not-yet-discovered" people can really accelerate the process of healing and educating.


    These are some thoughts from this morning. Please contribute if you are sincerely interested in the welfare of the myriad inmates subject to harsh conditions, and even harsher proclivities. If we affect positive change in the lowest rung of the ladder, if the gutter improves remarkably and substantially, the whole ladder will benefit. So many countries base their judicial standards on those the US, and with helpful changes to the US system, the whole world will benefit. Humanity at large will benefit.

    Already there is a movement called the Prison Dharma Network, where people start meditation groups and Dharma book clubs in prisons. I have been very moved by their work. One quote " I have shed many of my negative identities" really touched me to the point of tears. It is nigh impossible to imagine what sort of life one goes through to end up in prison, and to think that there is so little we do to help pull people out of the womb of poisonous snakes breaks heart.

    http://www.prisondharmanetwork.net


    Please send your support. I thank you all in advance. Namaste and Arigatou.

  • jlljll Veteran
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    edited May 2013
    fivebells said:

    karasti said:

    I'm not sure if I'd say "many"of the prisoners are the worst gang members. On a federal level, only 8% of offenders are violent offenders. On a state level, about 50%.

    He said "many" not "most." 8% of many is still many. :-)

    I've been training to work as a facilitator in the Alternatives to Violence program, which teaches prisoners non-violent ways of resolving conflict. It is not dharma, but the OP may want to look into it. It has the potential to reach many more people.

    Most of what I know about prison issues I learned from the NYS prisoner justice group. There is probably a similar group in your state.
    Thank you Fivebells.

    But I guess I should qualify my comment a bit. There are many different levels of prisons. First there's the division between state and federal, not to mention county and city. Within the state and federal system there are also a number of levels. I don't think we're worried much about the type of prison that Wesley Snipes was in (for example). No, most prisoners are gang members, but in some levels of prisons there are quite a few gang members.

    I want to go back to Person's post. Having been through the criminal justice system with my adopted son...court...and 3 months of weekly visits to a medium security prison, any thoughts of reforming the American prison system just seem like folly to me. And I don't think many Americans have any understanding of what many of these prisoners are like...which is why we have different levels of prisons. In my view, the place to have a real effect is before prison and after prison.

    I also wanted to comment about the oft stated fact that America's incarceration rate is the highest in the world. And I was comparing that to Thailand (where I lived for a while), at half as high a rate. But I thought of some things that are true in Thai society -- prostitution (including forced prostitution and child prostitution) is frequently overlooked; with much money (and in many cases it's not that much) you can bribe your way out of arrest and/or prison. During a number of military coups in Thailand not so distant past, dozens, even hundreds of participants weren't incarcerated...they simply disappeared. In the Deep South at one point many Islamic men were arrested and put in tractor trailer trucks to bake to death...so they weren't incarcerated. All I'm saying is you can't take the data about a country's incarceration rates and equate all issues involved in that. Do I think we in America have too high an incarceration rate? Yes. But perhaps we also have a higher societal standard of behavior in some cases.

  • rivercanerivercane Veteran
    edited May 2013
    Despite whatever crimes they may have committed, I have long felt compassion for the suffering of prisoners and the deplorable conditions they are forced to endure. There are also many innocent people who get caught up in the criminal justice system.

    Now, there are some bad people in prison. Some really bad people, which makes it even worse for the people who are sentenced for non-violent drug possession, most of whom have never been to jail before, much less prison. Many are unable to defend themselves.

    It sickens me when I hear people joke about prison rape, as though it's supposed to be part of the punishment when clearly it is a violation of the Constitution, which prohibits cruel and unusual punishment. The same thing goes with long periods of solitary confinement.

    I am also against the death penalty; I don't believe the government has a right to execute someone and I think we should follow the model of countries like Norway. One thing I like is the fact that you can only serve a maximum of 20 years, whereas in America, you can have multiple life sentences for a non-violent offence.

    American prisons and jails are brutal. I live not very far away from one of the worst prisons in the US, although there is a lot of competition for that title as we have so many bad ones and while I see your point @vinlyn I'm not so sure about the US having a higher societal standard of behavior. It seems to me that the majority who suffer are the poor and minority groups. A white collar criminal may be responsible for the loss of billions of dollars but may never go to jail while a poor person who steals a candy bar or gets caught with a little bit of marijuana will often do time, especially if they are out on parole. From what I hear, once you're in the system it's very hard to get out and it seems to me that their is clearly a racial bias.
    riverflowkarmablues
  • edited May 2013
    Not all people in jail are evil. That's understood. But neither should we assume that every criminal is a victim of the system or circumstances. Many of them are sadistic and brutal and would not hesitate to hurt those who try to help them. So one must be a little wary and not be too idealistic.

    p.s.
    I am talking generally here, not ref. to any specific nation.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    rivercane said:

    ...A white collar criminal may be responsible for the loss of billions of dollars but may never go to jail...

    You mean like Bernie Madoff?

  • riverflowriverflow Veteran
    edited May 2013
    I was thinking more like this:



    [LINK]
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    From the people that I have met doing prison work, they are all fully aware of what it entails and the risks involved. They are fully aware of what kind of people are in prison and they act accordingly. I'm sure the Prison Dharma Network does not even let people go into the prisons without first making them aware of what it entails.
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    I guess when I speak of America and our prison and prison rates and such it is in comparison to other developed countries, such as those in Europe. When you compare the US to similar countries, the conditions in which prisoners live and the rate and which we incarcerate people (and what we incarcerate them for) is insane. Clearly, what we are doing is not working, and it never has. We have a hard time reforming anything, no matter how badly it isn't working, when someone else is profiting from it. It's sad that in the US, some of the most profitable industries are based on people's health and lives.
    riverflowlobsterKundo
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    karasti said:

    I guess when I speak of America and our prison and prison rates and such it is in comparison to other developed countries, such as those in Europe. When you compare the US to similar countries, the conditions in which prisoners live and the rate and which we incarcerate people (and what we incarcerate them for) is insane. Clearly, what we are doing is not working, and it never has. We have a hard time reforming anything, no matter how badly it isn't working, when someone else is profiting from it. It's sad that in the US, some of the most profitable industries are based on people's health and lives.


    The only part of your commend that I would disagree with is that the evolution of our prison system into what it is today took place before it became big business.

    I problem that I see is that we ought to be working with certain types of prisoners in different ways. A famous example -- Wesley Snipes. Was he a danger to anyone? In my view, definitely not. Why did he need to be in prison? Why not let him continue his life and the soak the hell out of his income until every penny of owed taxes with a stiff interest and fine is paid off? Bernie Madoff certainly harmed others, financially. Why not monitor him, make him work off all he owed people plus penalties and interest, while earning only a living wage. To me, prison should be reserved for people who are a danger to society.

    riverflow
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    I think with white collar criminals part of the problem is that their area of expertise is usually finance. Well, who is going to hire them to work in that industry (even if most of the money is going to pay back those they stole from) after they have fooled and ripped off so many people for so much money? It's not like putting Maddoff on the grill line at McDonald's would help anyone. For him to be of financial value to pay back what he stole, he'd have to be working in the same industry that he stole from, and most people would have a hard time trusting him in that area again. But overall, I agree. The amount of money we spend on imprisoning people is crazy, when we consider how many of them need help rather than punishment.

    There is a kid who lives near us whose been a troubled kid for a long time. He's 15 now, and was suspended from school for the rest of the year for trying to start a fight. One of the football players was bullying him, and the kid flipped his lid, punched and kicked a locker and went after the much larger football player, who continued to taunt the kid. The football player was not punished despite his bullying, the other one is out of school. Time and time again, this kids parents, the school and the juvenile justice system has failed this kid. Did he deserve punishment? Yes. But he needs more help than anything else and he's not getting it. Things started off with trespassing and minor theft and have progressed, and will I'm sure progress until he is in prison himself. The school kicked him out, good for them, they don't have to deal with him anymore. But now society as a whole has to deal with him in a whole different way. Prison is about the same. We don't know how to help people, so we remove them from society as punishment, which only fuels their anger and exacerbates their problems even more. The kid just needs someone to care. But being a minor, he's subject to his parents and the system and even when others try to help, the mom rejects any help. I talked to our Outward Bound program for troubled kids here, which is an amazing program, and they offered a full scholarship minus a $100 application fee, which I offered to pay and his mom refuses to allow him to go. I just feel so bad for the kid, he's a kid that could probably still be helped, but not for much longer, before he ends up in prison. By the time he is old enough to make decisions without his parents approval, it'll be too late.
    person
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    My long diatribe about the kid was meant to agree with what someone (@vinlyn I think) said about helping before someone gets to prison. I still think it's worthwhile to work within the system as well, but I was just reading something by TNH the other day where he talked about using compassion to prevent problems rather than try to solve them after they get rolling. He was talking on a larger level of peace between nations and preventing war, about what we can really do to inflict change before a country is overtaken by dictators the rest of the world then needs to fight. It made a lot of sense, and I agree. Unfortunately with this kid we have people willing and able to help, and his mom refuses to relinquish any control and allow him to enter a program that could save him from a life of hurt. I assume because she takes this to look down on her as a mother in admitting her son needs more help than she can provide. She is never home and completely uninvolved in his life, yet she insists on stopping him from receiving the help he needs. Frustrating.

    But I do think that changing things within the system can then change things once the people get out, and hopefully increase their chances of success in the future and break the cycle in their family.
    riverflow
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    The problem with solving this issue is, quite frankly, money.

    I was thinking of this from a different angle. Every day I get 2-3 pieces of mail from various charities asking for my financial support. I put them all in a box, and in December of each year I write checks of varying amounts to those that for me are most worthy. Additionally there are phone solicitations, including one already this morning.

    Now, at the end of the year as I am writing my checks to some of these organizations, one (if there were one) that wouldn't get a dime from me, would be to support convicts. Not because I don't see the problem, but because I simply have more sympathy for people with cancer, or orphans, or children at Indian schools, or those with muscular dystrophy, or wounded American vets, or... The list goes on much longer. And I can't give to all of them, so I select a few. And here's the thing, the charities that get my support are those who support people who were innocent victims of a disease or life circumstance.

    For most of my life I lived in the DC area, and at least when I lived in Fairfax County, we had a voter constituency that was relatively willing to pay high taxes for good services. Now I am living in Colorado, and there's quite a different attitude out here. I'm exaggerating slightly, but it's basically to keep taxes relatively low at any cost. And, for most tax issues, people actually get to vote on specific taxes and tax purposes. Reforming prison ain't getting a dime from Colorado tax payers. And the reason, in my view, is that people who go to prison -- for the most part -- got there because of decisions they made, so it's their own fault. I always assumed that the reason my nephew went to prison was drug dealing; that was his choice. When my adopted son made a momentary very bad choice and got arrested, it was his own fault. And I think it's very hard for society to say to itself -- "I should pay more money in taxes because someone else made bad personal choices".

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    But as a society we should be invested if not in their prison life, but in their return to the rest of us in society. Recidivism rates for many types of crime are exceedingly high, and much of that is due to them being stuck in a circle they can't get out of without much help. All of us should be interesting in them getting out of prison and participating in a worthwhile manner to society rather than reoffending, costing many more dollars in tax payer money in police work, trials and yet more prison time. Money wise, it would be more cost effective to stop them are their one time in prison and help them become productive (those that are interested, obviously there is no changing someone who doesn't want to change).

    From a sociological standpoint, it's not nearly as simple as "they made the choice." At the end point, yes, they made a choice. But what went into that choice is a pretty vast and complex series of events and circumstances, many times, and as a society, we play a part in those events and circumstances that drove them to make the choices they did. As in the case with our neighbor kid. We could intervene, we have the opportunity, but when the mom will not accept neighboring help the system should make up for her lack of parenting and do something to help the kid. He should be in an intervention program, and his extensive school and police juvenile record should be enough for a court to be able to place him there. Yet they don't. We have a chance to prevent this kid from going to prison right now, and our system isn't doing it where the rest of us cannot because his mother will not allow it.
    riverflowperson
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    @Karasti, my comments were not so much about how it should be, but rather about how society actually looks at it.

    I'd like to bring up a couple of other points for discussion:


    1. Somewhere else here on the forum this morning was post that relates to your post. I can't find it now, so I'll try to paraphrase something that I read about 4 hours ago: As Buddhists we accept that we are responsible for the actions that create our karma.

    2. Let me draw another analogy and then ask a question, and it's about the topic of recidivism. In my school occasionally I had to expel a student (typically this involved a drug or weapons offense, although there were rare cases where it involved a sexual offense). Almost without exception, students who got expelled had been previously suspended (which in our system was rarely more than 3 consecutive days) multiple times, had been on in-school suspension multiple times, detentions, etc. Are we so sure that in ex-cons that the recidivism rate is so high because they were in prison...or is it high because those people have taken "short cuts" in life all along? I'm not so sure prison causes the recidivism, but perhaps it's just a "way of life" some people learned long before they got to prison.

    I don't know the answers to my 2 posits. It's just for discussion.


  • GlowGlow Veteran
    edited May 2013
    vinlyn said:

    2. Let me draw another analogy and then ask a question, and it's about the topic of recidivism. In my school occasionally I had to expel a student (typically this involved a drug or weapons offense, although there were rare cases where it involved a sexual offense). Almost without exception, students who got expelled had been previously suspended (which in our system was rarely more than 3 consecutive days) multiple times, had been on in-school suspension multiple times, detentions, etc. Are we so sure that in ex-cons that the recidivism rate is so high because they were in prison...or is it high because those people have taken "short cuts" in life all along? I'm not so sure prison causes the recidivism, but perhaps it's just a "way of life" some people learned long before they got to prison.

    This is what criminology studies. One pioneering study was by Frank Tannenbaum in 1938, which posited a labeling theory for criminality: Tannenbaum saw that the way the criminal justice system brands people does indeed lead to a certain psychology that makes them liable to reoffend.

    Of course, that's not the only factor. Another one is the fact that it's very hard to live off the stigma of a criminal conviction. It's hard enough to get a job as a person with a clean slate. It's all but impossible if you have a felony on your record. You may have completely turned your mindset around, but if the society you live in has little forgiveness for an ex-convict, you're short of luck and have very few options. Victor Hugo made an eloquent case in Les Miserables for some of these issues: Valjean, though he was truly a deeply changed man, had to live the rest of his life in hiding and under various pseudonyms.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    @Glow, I'm not sure you've answered my posit. Would they have offended even if they had not already been in prison.

    I know what you mean, though. My nephew either couldn't get a job after his felony, or couldn't hold a job he did get because it meant that he had lied on his job application.
  • GlowGlow Veteran
    vinlyn said:

    @Glow, I'm not sure you've answered my posit. Would they have offended even if they had not already been in prison.

    I know what you mean, though. My nephew either couldn't get a job after his felony, or couldn't hold a job he did get because it meant that he had lied on his job application.

    It's impossible to answer your present question ("Would they have offended even if they had not already been in prison.") -- how would we know? We can't very well go back in time, create an alternate universe in which this person didn't get arrested, and see for ourselves. There is no possible study we could devise to answer that question.

    What we DO know is that prison doesn't DETER people from committing further crimes and (as evidenced by Tannenbaum and post-Tannenbaumian studies) it may well contribute to further criminality. And that's what we need to deal with as a society. What is the cost-benefit ratio, here? Are the resources being pooled into the prison system resulting in much of a payoff for us as a country? If not, what can we do to make our criminal justice system more effective?

    Out current justice system is based on principles of punishment vs. remediation. Slowly, we have made progress toward the latter, but we have a ways to go.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Glow said:


    It's impossible to answer your present question ("Would they have offended even if they had not already been in prison.") -- how would we know? We can't very well go back in time, create an alternate universe in which this person didn't get arrested, and see for ourselves. There is no possible study we could devise to answer that question.

    What we DO know is that prison doesn't DETER people from committing further crimes and (as evidenced by Tannenbaum and post-Tannenbaumian studies) it may well contribute to further criminality. And that's what we need to deal with as a society. What is the cost-benefit ratio, here? Are the resources being pooled into the prison system resulting in much of a payoff for us as a country? If not, what can we do to make our criminal justice system more effective?

    Out current justice system is based on principles of punishment vs. remediation. Slowly, we have made progress toward the latter, but we have a ways to go.

    But that sort of sullies the belief that prison causes recidivism.

    Let me ask it another way. Let's take theft. I would guess that the vast majority of people who get arrested for theft aren't first time offenders. That they've actually committed theft numerous, perhaps even many times before getting finally getting caught.

    Now why is that important? Because I think the odds of turning somebody around who is in prison are relatively low. I think the work needs to be done before they get arrested.

    To your second point, being in prison certainly deters people from committing a crime...while they're in prison, and I think that's the true intent of prison.



  • GlowGlow Veteran
    vinlyn said:


    But that sort of sullies the belief that prison causes recidivism.

    Wait... what does? I simply cited one of the prevailing criminological dialectics. If anyone is saying categorically that "prison causes recidivism", they are greatly oversimplifying the situation. Just as, I would say your point that "the odds of turning somebody around who is in prison are relatively low" also is an oversimplification. It depends on many factors. Again, there's an entire field of study dedicated to this. There's no reason to be speaking in hypotheticals.
    vinlyn said:


    Let me ask it another way. Let's take theft. I would guess that the vast majority of people who get arrested for theft aren't first time offenders. That they've actually committed theft numerous, perhaps even many times before getting finally getting caught.

    Now why is that important? Because I think the odds of turning somebody around who is in prison are relatively low. I think the work needs to be done before they get arrested.

    I agree that, ideally, it's better to get someone early in their criminal career. There are programs and systems with high recidivism and there are programs and systems with low recidivism. There are people out there who are actually studying what is effective vs. ineffective. Jumping straight to "the odds of turning somebody around who is in prison are relatively low" is jumping ahead of the data. The fact is our prison system in the U.S. is already teeming with prisoners. In addition to dealing with those who have not been arrested yet, we have to effectively deal with those who are already in the criminal system. I think that's all anyone is really saying.
    vinlyn said:

    To your second point, being in prison certainly deters people from committing a crime...while they're in prison, and I think that's the true intent of prison.

    Sure. And then what? They're in jail for a decade or less and then...? We have to deal with the ex-prisoners. We can't just ignore this problem.
    betaboy
  • sovasova delocalized fractyllic harmonizing Veteran
    edited May 2013
    No debating allowed. Be nice :D
  • sovasova delocalized fractyllic harmonizing Veteran
    edited May 2013
    By the way, here is something crazy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_prison
    A private prison or for-profit prison, jail, or detention center is a place in which individuals are physically confined or interned by a third party that is contracted by a government agency. Private prison companies typically enter into contractual agreements with governments that commit prisoners and then pay a per diem or monthly rate for each prisoner confined in the facility.
    Turns out, prisons are extremely profitable business. Kinda funny to think that every prisoner is actually a government employee. (except their paycheck goes to the prison)
    Glow
  • GlowGlow Veteran
    sova said:

    No debating allowed. Be nice :D

    Sorry. This is what happens when I just jump into a discussion without reading anything that came before the last post, lol. I withdraw from this thread. :)

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    There's no reason to withdraw from the thread, although, of course, it's your choice.

    But I would say that if we are only going to base discussions on data and facts, we may as fold up the website since there will be almost no posts to read! ;)
    John_SpencerGlow
  • GlowGlow Veteran
    vinlyn said:

    There's no reason to withdraw from the thread, although, of course, it's your choice.

    But I would say that if we are only going to base discussions on data and facts, we may as fold up the website since there will be almost no posts to read! ;)

    lol, nah. Discussion would probably just move a lot quicker. This is the internet. Facts and figures have never stopped anyone from debating things into the ground. Just look at any politics forum. :P
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    I taught IT in a prison for a short while. It is not an easy environment to be in. The category B prison I worked in had a teacher of Zen and a whacko yoga teacher (the only person who attacked me was her). What you are doing is very needed and worthwhile. I would suggest metta Bhavna meditation for the prison staff, (call it stress relief). The Zen teacher was great, only got to talk with her once. Practically all the prisoners used some religious practice to cope.

    Good luck. :clap:
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    There is evidence (I am on my way to bed but will try to remember to find it tomorrow) that even for a first time non-violent offender, spending time in prison leads to recidivism. I think it's fair to say that if someone has 17 arrests for robbery and spends time in prison several times, they they will probably re-offend and that prison did not cause him to do so. But, could a better system have prevented him from doing so? Maybe. Anyhow, people who are sentenced for minor drug crimes, assaults and so on, come out of prison only to re-offend shortly after. They return to a society that does not want them, no matter how many crime they didn't commit, no matter what they have to offer. They spent a number of years being treated worse than dogs by the officers and inmates, and as we know is the case from many, many studies, the more times someone is told what they are, they start to believe it.
    riverflow
  • karmablueskarmablues Veteran
    edited May 2013

    Have you heard of this organsisation[Angulimala] in the UK that provide Buddhist 'chaplaincy' for prisoners.

    According to the Daily Telegraph, Buddhism is by far the fastest-growing religion in England's jails. "In 1997 there were only 226 Buddhists in prisons in England and Wales, but by the end of June 2008 that figure had risen by 669 per cent to reach 1,737 which amounts to 2 per cent of the 79,734 prison population."

    Lord Avebury, a Liberal Democrat peer who is the patron of Angulimala, told The Daily Telegraph: "My inclination would be to say it must help people after they leave jail. The whole idea of Buddhism is not to cause harm to anybody, and the person who persists in their faith is likely to be totally recast in their life and must be less likely to re-offend."

    By the way, Ven. Khemadhammo who is the founder and director of Angulimala, was a student of Ajahn Chah and began his prison services due to receiving the blessings from Ajahn Chah to do so. In 2003, Queen Elizabeth bestowed him with an OBE (Officer of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire) for his prison services.

    I like what Ven. Khemadhammo said about his prison work: "Of course, people in prison can't come to the temple, so we have to take the temple to them.''
    John_SpencerlobsterKundo
  • sovasova delocalized fractyllic harmonizing Veteran
    Glow said:

    sova said:

    No debating allowed. Be nice :D

    Sorry. This is what happens when I just jump into a discussion without reading anything that came before the last post, lol. I withdraw from this thread. :)

    @Glow no hard feelings :D your enthusiasm is appreciated. now to channel our forces for the power of good, fellow jedi.


    I like what Ven. Khemadhammo said about his prison work: "Of course, people in prison can't come to the temple, so we have to take the temple to them.''

    @karmablues that's wonderful!

    thank you everyone for your material suggestions. I shall watch some of these documentaries!
  • betaboybetaboy Veteran
    The prison system deals with the symptoms and not the actual cause. if some hardened criminals are monsters, then society is the Frankenstein that created them.
    riverflowVastmind
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    betaboy said:

    The prison system deals with the symptoms and not the actual cause. if some hardened criminals are monsters, then society is the Frankenstein that created them.

    Here's why I disagree with that: If society created the 0.7% of Americans who are incarcerated, then society also created the 99.3% of Americans who are not incarcerated.

    What happened to the oft stated Buddhist principle that we are responsible for our own karma?

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    are we 100% responsible for everything that happens to us? No, we aren't. If Karma means action, then we aren't 100% responsible for the actions perpetrated on us. We are ultimately responsible for how we react but it's unfair to say every person has the same causes and conditions that allow some to overcome and succeed against all odds because they don't. Overwhelmingly, people born into bad circumstances tend to continue on with lives of bad circumstances. There are those who overcome and rise above, but they certainly aren't the majority. We don't cease having compassion for, or trying to help them as a result. They need great intervention, assistance and support to pull out of that circle, which is often generations deep. That takes people who care, who can help, and money and as you pointed out @vinlyn, society as a whole doesn't care to invest in people who have already made bad choices, so they continue stuck in the circle and have children born into the circle.
    riverflow
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Mostly I'll agree with what you said, Karasti. However, take any general neighborhood where the crime rate is higher than average -- let's say NE Washington, D.C. No matter how high that crime rate is, it's still a distinct minority who actually turn to crime.
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    edited May 2013
    Of course it is. But of that minority, how many of them came from stable, livable income families? The majority of people in the US don't live in those conditions, so the majority of US citizens are law abiding folk, for the most part. Those who DO live in those conditions, they provide a majority of our crime, our drug abuse, our homelessness, our high school drop outs, our prison population.
    riverflowJohn_Spencer
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    And to a large extent -- since most of the people in those neighborhoods still don't turn to crime -- some people make bad choices.

    Someone earlier alluded to Victor Hugo's Jean Valjean, as if it were comparable. It's not. Jean Valjean stole bread to feed his family. That's not comparable to what the Latino gang members who live in northern Virginia communities such as Culmore. The theft, home break-ins, forced prostitution, and so forth that many of these gang members are involved in support a drug culture and a not-work culture. It isn't about stealing bread for their families. Meanwhile the many good Latino families who also live in that neighborhood struggle to resist gang involvement by their children, the parents work 2 or more jobs each, come to school for parent meetings, and abide by the law.

    One of the students in our school was in one of the northern Virginia gangs and came to me for help getting out the gang. His family wasn't poor, they were doing okay. He got into the gang because he met some other young people who were in the gang. When he chose to get out he was told it was easy to get out -- just play Russian roulette in front of other gang members. I worked to get him some help, but he took matters into his own hands a few hours before. The next day the professional who was going to help him arrived at our school and we called the young man in. He said it was okay because he had already gotten out of the gang without our help. I asked if he had played Russian roulette. He said, "No, Mr. Lynch. You like me and you treat me with respect. So I'm not going to tell you what I did to get out of the gang, because if I told you what I did, you'd never want to look at me again. You don't want to know." What's my point? From getting into the gang, to wanting to get out of the gang, to seeking help, to taking matters into his own hands, to doing whatever he did, he made a series of choices.

    And, although he wasn't in a gang, it was the same for my nephew. He was lower middle class. Had a decent job as a chef. Had a car. Had an okay life. Never hungry. Always had decent clothes and a stereo and television. Not lacking for anything important. Then he got involved in something -- I never knew what, but almost certainly selling drugs. And after serving 2 years in prison told me it was all about the bad choices he made.

    The majority of people -- even those who live in bad, bad situations -- still choose to stay within the law.
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    Yes I know. My point was that OF those who do break the law (in ways we are speaking of), most of them come from bad situations. That's a common theme that has been studied to death. It isn't a coincidence. And while this is also a contentious debate, many kids who join gangs do so out of a feeling of acceptance and support. A twisted way to get it, but that is what many of them who are interviewed claim. So while parents most certainly might mean well, if they are never home because they are always working, can they provide their kids with what they are looking for? Not all, but most young people who join gangs do so to get that sense of family loyalty that they are lacking in their lives.

    Anyhow we are straying pretty far from what the OP was intending, I think. My only point in bringing it all up as it relates to the OP is that we can do a better job in many, many ways. We can do a better job with providing resources and interventions before people go to prison. We can do better with supporting them when they get out, AND we can do better to help them change their lives if they so desire by supporting them in prison. And I think anyone working towards any of those goals is one to be admired. It's not an easy path.
    riverflow
  • GlowGlow Veteran
    edited May 2013
    vinlyn said:

    What happened to the oft stated Buddhist principle that we are responsible for our own karma?

    Why did the Buddha teach the dhamma? To awaken us out of aversion, craving, and ignorance. People sometimes choose their actions with mind-states poisoned by the kilesas. Sometimes they choose their actions unclouded by the kilesas, and yet still suffer unjustly because of the socio-political system they are operating within.

    Do we simply abandon people to rot with the results of their actions born out of ignorance, aversion, or craving? Does Buddhism devolve into quietism in the face of the present socio-political system? If that was what the teaching of kamma was about, the Buddha wouldn't have bothered teaching at all.
    John_SpencerriverflowFullCircle
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Glow said:

    vinlyn said:

    What happened to the oft stated Buddhist principle that we are responsible for our own karma?

    Why did the Buddha teach the dhamma? To awaken us out of aversion, craving, and ignorance. People sometimes choose their actions with mind-states poisoned by the kilesas. Sometimes they choose their actions unclouded by the kilesas, and yet still suffer unjustly because of the socio-political system they are operating within.

    Do we simply abandon people to rot with the results of their actions born out of ignorance, aversion, or craving? Does Buddhism devolve into quietism in the face of the present socio-political system? If that was what the teaching of kamma was about, the Buddha wouldn't have bothered teaching at all.
    I agree. But I don't think -- at least in the Buddhist scriptures I've read -- that we should at people as victims, and there's an awfully lot of that here. They're victims of Nestle company. They're victims of potato chips and ice cream. They're victims of poverty. They're victims of _______________ (fill in the blank). To all the victims, including myself, "man-up".

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    First of all, I don't think it's fair to bring stuff from other threads here, because not everyone reads every thread and it causes confusion if they haven't read it and don't know what you are talking about (for example, anyone who has read the thread on obesity should know no one is saying people are a victim of potato chips yet your post implies that that is what is happening).

    I, at least, am not suggesting we simply label people as victims and have pity for them. I'm saying that in any situation, there is far more to it that cannot, and should not, be overlooked if we are looking to solve the problem. Simply throwing up our hands and saying "the people in prison deserve to be there because they made bad choices." does nothing to solve the problem of helping people make better choices before they get to prison, does nothing to help them improve while they are there, and does nothing to prepare them for rejoining our society. This is something we should all be invested in since we all have to live with previously incarcerated people, but most people are happy to lock them up and keep them out of sight, out of mind. Until that person is released and commits another offense,then we have lots of interest in them and why we can't just lock them up for life. Rather that do that, it would be better for them, and for all of us, for them to be worthwhile contributors to society.

    Yet as is so often the case, no one wants to invest in anything until it's too late. No one wants to spend $4000 on a tornado shelter until they lost their home or family member to a tornado. No one wants flood insurance until their home floods. No one wants to pay for healthy food but then they complain how much it costs to get medical care. It all comes down to us, as usual, being only reactionary and failing miserably at being proactive. We bandaid problems, we don't prevent them. We never learn after all the times the bandaid gets ripped off and takes our skin and hair with it that it is best to prevent needing the bandaid at all.
    Jeffrey
  • GlowGlow Veteran
    edited May 2013
    vinlyn said:

    I agree. But I don't think -- at least in the Buddhist scriptures I've read -- that we should at people as victims, and there's an awfully lot of that here. They're victims of Nestle company. They're victims of potato chips and ice cream. They're victims of poverty. They're victims of _______________ (fill in the blank). To all the victims, including myself, "man-up".

    I would say there's a difference between playing the victim (which entails giving up responsibility for and power over one's actions in the present and future) and acknowledging the untoward circumstances in which actions took place in the past (and acknowledging the limitations that conditions place on actions in the present). The former implies resignation. The latter implies action.

    In the Kammavibhanga Sutta, the Buddha warned agaisnt speculating on people's kamma. It's a confounding little sutta, but what I take away from it is this: it's not our place to judge someone. That's "adding extra" -- it's doing more work than is necessary or helpful. What we're called to do as Buddhists is see suffering and the end of suffering. We cannot ultimately control whether someone decides to return to crime or not. That is what the teaching of kamma is about. But we CAN help mitigate the conditions that might cause recidivism. What does "man up" mean in this context? I would say it means "do what can be done." But there's only so much that can be done sometimes. And sometimes, a man can use a helping hand. If there are people willing to give these people a break, what's it to you? So someone made some bad decisions. Now what? I like the way the Desert Fathers put it:
    If a man has done wrong and does not deny it, but says: I did wrong, do not rebuke him, because you will break the resolution of his soul. And if you tell him: Do not be sad, brother, but watch it in the future, you stir him up to change his life.
    As for Jean Valjean: for all Bishop Myriel knew, Valjean could have been a murderer. In fact, Valjean posited this very possibility. "God will take care of that," was the Bishop's reply. We are Myriel: we have a choice in how to treat our fellow human beings (kamma). Had Myriel treated Valjean like everyone else, who knows what would have become of him? We don't have to be foolhardy and open our houses to every criminal out there. But we have little to lose from opening our hearts.
    John_Spencerriverflow
Sign In or Register to comment.