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FREEDOM!

NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
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Berserker sensibilities aside, what does freedom mean to you in a spiritual sense? Can we be free?
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Comments

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    Freedom means trusting the moment to unfold.

    riverflowDaltheJigsawLucy_Begood
  • For me, there are 2 types of Freedom;

    Physical freedom - having the ability to live how ever we want to live..

    And

    Mental freedom..

    Realistically, physically we will never be free! We are all in chains...

    But mentally, we can all be free!

    swaydamDaltheJigsaw
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    edited June 2013
    that just brought up a thought. Can a moment actually unfold? An event sure can. But a moment? I've had like 20 moments just typing this, none of them unfolding, they just were there, and then they were gone. It seems the unfolding is so quick (that we can't even apply time as a reference to it) that by the time we say "unfolding" it's already over.

    Freedom...I don't think we can be free until we die, for good. We can be more free than most of us currently are. We don't have to be the slaves to our emotions and our material goods and our attachments that we are, for sure. But no matter how unattached you are to many things, there is still pain. There is still the loss of a mother, a father, a great teacher, and so on, and we're still bound by those connections which to me means we aren't entirely free.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited June 2013
    @karasti, good observation, it made me think. I think what you are saying is similar to what my teacher is teaching me. We have this facutly of awareness. It's like we can drive a car and it is panoramic. We don't have to say "blue car behind me going 35... stoplight.." I mean we kind of do but we take in so much info and then our awareness reacts. Typing these lines.. lines lines lines lines lines... see how my mind puts the sentence together without knowing how it will end. Just like how do I pick up my cheese and bread and put them in my mouth? I just do it.

    I think a buddha can give dharma teachings just like I put bread in my mouth. It becomes them.
    Straight_Manperson
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    Free to Love More with a Brave Heart.
    karmabluesCinorjer
  • To be free from the dictates of the defilements
    JeffreylobsterInvincible_summerperson
  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran


    My fiance swears that this music video made her realize she was gay... which is a certain form of freedom...
    But today the way I play the game has got to change
    Oh yeah
    Now I'm gonna get myself happy

    I think there's something you should know
    I think it's time I stopped the show
    There's something deep inside of me
    There's someone I forgot to be
    Take back your picture in a frame
    Take back your singing in the rain
    I just hope you understand
    Sometimes the clothes do not make the man
    TheEccentric
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    " Freedom is a kind of gyp, a basic misunderstanding of the nature of ourselves and the nature of things, and the way that they arise dependently ".

    Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche. author of ' The Myth Of Freedom '.
    Zero
  • how said:

    Given that I've just had a cider and this particular fool has no tolerance for alcohol.....

    Freedom to me in a spiritual sense means being able to head in whatever direction is appropriate for that moment. My conditioning is the curtailment of freedom but in conditioning's absence, only freedom remains.

    Not bad for drunken babbling!
    lobsterInvincible_summer
  • SabreSabre Veteran
    edited June 2013
    I can see freedom in a lot of ways. But one thing that spiritual freedom for me is not is the freedom to do things, to go, or think whatever we want. It's this wanting that keeps dragging us all over the place, never let's us be in peace and really free.
  • zenffzenff Veteran
    edited June 2013
    Not wearing socks.
    For some reason that is the definition of freedom for me.
    personJeffreyhowWonderingSeeker
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    Citta said:

    " Freedom is a kind of gyp, a basic misunderstanding of the nature of ourselves and the nature of things, and the way that they arise dependently ".

    Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche. author of ' The Myth Of Freedom '.

    This is along the line I was thinking. It seems freedom can be very self oriented.
  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran
    Maybe freedom is the ability to prattle about "freedom".
    howlobsterCitta
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    And to be able to prattle about anything..if it is below anyone's dignity to give a considered reply that doesn't simply dismiss the topic they should perhaps ignore the thread.
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    Prattle or not prattle, there is no escaping responsibility, right?
  • FlorianFlorian Veteran
    edited June 2013



    My fiance swears that this music video made her realize she was gay... which is a certain form of freedom...

    I thought the whole argument for it being okay to be gay was that is that it is not a form of freedom.

  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    Meditation = freedom.
    riverflowChe
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    edited June 2013
    How so?
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    I don't think being gay is what makes a person free. Understanding something about themselves and accepting it fully can be freedom. That is the same for anyone, regardless of what they might be dealing with internally. We all have challenges to overcome in some way, whether we need to accept our sexuality, accept that who we are is ok even if other people don't always like it, accept that not everyone will like us, and so on. Accepting oneself is a form of freedom, absolutely.
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    @Nevermind
    If your "How so?" question was about my previous post..the answer is best demonstrated by simply asking you "What limits your spiritual freedom and what frees it?.
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    Are you perhaps suggesting something like non-duality = freedom, How?
  • how said:

    Meditation = freedom.

    What kind of freedom??

    Can meditation give me the freedom from heart ache when mourning for a loved one who is no longer around?

  • GuiGui Veteran
    First, find the "you" who is free or not free.
  • TheswingisyellowTheswingisyellow Trying to be open to existence Samsara Veteran
    edited June 2013
    I want to be free of even the word freedom, it's our conceptual mind that binds us to the wheel we long to escape.
  • Gui said:

    First, find the "you" who is free or not free.

    Easy... Im here, right now!

    I wont 'last' forever, i know... (So theres no 'abiding self' ... But im still here NOW!
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    Perhaps this video may express the situation...

  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran
    Florian said:



    My fiance swears that this music video made her realize she was gay... which is a certain form of freedom...

    I thought the whole argument for it being okay to be gay was that is that it is not a form of freedom.

    What?
    I can't quite understand your point but I can elaborate on my comment. The need to conform to heterosexual society can be very damaging and sometimes deadly for homosexuals in that early stage of realization. They often say that the most important person you come out to is yourself. Pretending to be straight, as many of us do for varied lengths of time for varied reasons, can feel very suffocating. Once you take that step and admit to yourself, and then admit to others that you're gay, it does feel like freedom. Basically, you're finally letting go of all of the self-imposed burdens and facing society head on with the courage to be yourself.
    lobsterJeffreyriverflow
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    edited June 2013
    @Nevewrmind
    Nevermind said:

    Are you perhaps suggesting something like non-duality = freedom, How?

    Yes...but I should point out for those who missed it that the question was specifically about spiritual freedom.

    Meditation is the process of allowing all phenomena to ebb and flow free of our conditioning. Meditation is where we stop habitually feeding the conditioning which binds us to phenomena, which is the experience of spiritual freedom, as opposed to indulging our identify with a buffet of what we do or do not want, which brings about our loss of that freedom..
    riverflowzenff
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    This seems to overlook the fact that we cannot exist as individuals. We are inextricably tied to other beings. Their fears are our fears and their bonds are our bonds.

    Roy said it best...
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    edited June 2013
    When fear arises in Meditation, it is simply experienced for what it is. Unless one grasps after or runs away from that fear, it has no power to enslave the meditater. Within the experience of fear (or empathy or sympathy) the meditator remains both mindful of the fear and free.
    If one is unable to abide as a meditative observer in the presense of such phenomena, then I think that could just be called a moment that you were unable to meditate. Until
    one can allow the fear to just be what it is, then enslaved you remain.
    riverflow
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    Non-duality is not freedom, or rather it's just as much bondage as it is freedom, because in non-duality there is no duality between free and bound.

    In non-duality we do not save our countrymen from enslavement, because we're too busy meditating. :-/
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    Berserker sensibilities aside, what does freedom mean to you in a spiritual sense? Can we be free?
    Free but not independent.
    http://buddhism.about.com/od/basicbuddhistteachings/a/genesis.htm
    riverflow
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    @Nevermind
    Perhaps you are talking about the dangers of being a Precheka buddha.
    Personally I think such a state is actually more akin to a directed concentration practise as opposed to meditation.
    I have no experience of being too busy meditating to help others as this would be the description of a personally directed practise with the possibility of exclusion whereas what I think of as meditation is directionless and thereby applies everywhere.
    lobsterswaydamriverflow
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    edited June 2013
    If it's directionless then it couldn't be directed towards helping others.

    Listen to Titiyo. Make a statement, take a stand... be a thorn on the rose.
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    FREEDOM! :clap:

  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    edited June 2013
    Wow..

    Let me apologize in advance if I've got this wrong (I only seem to get the audio from NewBuddhist.com)

    But are you explaining freedom by highlighting the movie script read by an actor who's forever apologizing for repeatedly spouting derogatory racial epithets in real life?

  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    Uh, I'm not "explaining freedom" at all. :(
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    Nevermind said:

    Uh, I'm not "explaining freedom" at all. :(

    What are you doing if anything?
    :wave:
    how
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    edited June 2013
    Exploring the subject, if that's okay with y'all. :p

    Listen to Wallace, he says "they may take our lives but they can't take our freedom." What does that mean?
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    Nevermind said:


    Listen to Wallace, he says "they may take our lives but they can't take our freedom." What does that mean?

    Nothing useful. It is the equivalent of saying Nihilism is the only freedom.
    A person dead is no longer spiritual, unless hoping for a 'get out of dying' reincarnation as a kilt.

    :)
    riverflow
  • FlorianFlorian Veteran
    Seems a useful remark to me, and a true one. But we'll all read it in different ways.
    lobster
  • riverflowriverflow Veteran
    edited June 2013
    lobster said:


    Nothing useful. It is the equivalent of saying Nihilism is the only freedom.

    "Freedom, however, is not the last word. Freedom is only part of the story and half of the truth. Freedom is but the negative aspect of the whole phenomenon whose positive aspect is responsibleness. In fact, freedom is in danger of degenerating into mere arbitrariness unless it is lived in terms of responsibleness." ~ Viktor Frankl
    swaydam
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    lobster said:

    Nevermind said:


    Listen to Wallace, he says "they may take our lives but they can't take our freedom." What does that mean?

    Nothing useful. It is the equivalent of saying Nihilism is the only freedom.
    A person dead is no longer spiritual, unless hoping for a 'get out of dying' reincarnation as a kilt.

    :)
    Fighting against tyranny, the rape and murder of your family members, is nihilistic? What do you think nihilism means?
  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    "I want to conclude by offering a metaphor for this Mahamudra training.

    Let us suppose that we are an eagle in a cage perched on the edge of a cliff. That we have been dressed up in clothes, we have a coat on, we have a hat, we have big mittens over our wings, we have boots over our feet. And we have come to believe that this is who we are. We're weighed down with all these dark coverings and we don't even know what our wings look like, we don't know what our claws look like. When we look in the mirror in our little cage all we see is these haunted eyes and this rather disfigured creature all dressed up in a kind of comical way. We think that the cage is the normal situation, our normal situation. That its our world, its how things are. Meantime, we can see through the bars and we look out and see this vast open space ahead of us. It goes to infinity and during the day we see the sun riding through the sky, we see the clouds and at night we see the stars and moons. And we feel such incredible longing in our heart. We almost want to throw ourselves into that space, we want to drink the sky, we want to touch the sun. We want to smell the moon and hold the stars. But of course we know thats not how things are. We're this weighed down, cloaked being in this cage. And even when we feel that longing we think we're insane. We think we're crazy. And if there were other similar eagles dressed up they'd be telling us no, no, no you can't do that, that's not what it means thats not what life is for. And then all of a sudden somebody throws open the door, somebody pulls the door of the cage open and without even thinking we throw off our boots and we throw off our gloves and we throw off our hat and our coat. And as we're doing it there's some kind of huge surge this kind of absolutely irresistible longing and urge to leap into the space. And we do. And we leap from the cage and there's a little part of us that thinks we're insane and we're leaping to our death. But then our wings open and they're huge and we feel the updraft and we spread our wings and we ride up on the wind. And we ride up into that beautiful huge sky. Up and up and out and out. And we look ahead and we see nothing but infinity. And we see the clouds and we fly up among the clouds. We feel their moisture and up higher we feel the warmth of the sun. And there is such joy in our being. We feel so free and suddenly our life feels so good. And we feel finally for the first time we actually know who we are and we know why we are born. To fly like this through all eternity. To enjoy and taste and touch all the things we meet on the way. And pretty soon those dark clothes and that tiny cage just seem like a distant memory. "

    -Reginald Ray from "Mahamudra for the Modern World"
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    Nevermind said:

    what does freedom mean to you in a spiritual sense?

    We are dead. We are free? Suicide is spiritual freedom from dukkha?
    You have asked about spiritual freedom. Perhaps freedom is the capacity to free ourselves firstly and interdependently others . . .

    This is not the way:
    http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/dharmadata/fdd30.htm
    Nor is aggression. Or replacing one set of oppression with another. Perhaps you can answer your own question, I am confused by what you are asking for. What does spiritual freedom mean? It is nothing to do with berserkers or bazookas as far as I know . . .

    :wave:
    Jeffrey
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    FLOWERS!

  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    edited June 2013
    lobster said:

    Nevermind said:

    what does freedom mean to you in a spiritual sense?

    We are dead. We are free? Suicide is spiritual freedom from dukkha?
    You have asked about spiritual freedom. Perhaps freedom is the capacity to free ourselves firstly and interdependently others . . .

    This is not the way:
    http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/dharmadata/fdd30.htm
    Nor is aggression. Or replacing one set of oppression with another. Perhaps you can answer your own question, I am confused by what you are asking for. What does spiritual freedom mean? It is nothing to do with berserkers or bazookas as far as I know . . .

    :wave:
    It's a trick question, categorical freedom is not freedom. Responsibility applies across the board, and it's a big board.


    Pretty flowers, Person!
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