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Beware of the Maya of Teachers and Teachings

Don't confuse the messenger with the message

The highest spiritual and the mundane are equal
Paradox

All spiritual and all mundane are without any
seperate, independant, individual self-nature

Spiritual and mundane are not independent,nor
do they exist outside of language

Enlightenment and delusion are non existent
Awakening and ignorance are delusive fantasies

Words and actions have nothing to do with the truth
Emotions, feelings, expressing, experiences and
behaviour has nothing to do with the Absolute

Going beyond the truth
Going prior to the truth and the truth
have nothing to do with the truth

Non-duality, witnessing and awareness temporary
seductive nested states which deny their inevitable "mortality"

Zen and Buddhism and dharma are formless and without chracteristics
They are based on words and are temporary
Why bother trying to understand or know them
or behave as if they are with a self-existing nature?

Their reality is an illusion

The Path is the obstacle

Even precious gold dust, if it gets in your eye causes blindness

Don't confuse the messenger with the message
Patr

Comments

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran
    and the message was written by who? lol
    I don't know that I believe that Dharma is based on words. The teachings are an attempt to put words to truth, which sometimes works better than others. If a person doesn't want to understand or know, then they certainly don't have to. But I appreciate those who have made an effort to put truth into words to help the rest of us out. As learning and knowing continues, the words to describe them become less necessary.
    riverflow
  • PatrPatr Veteran
    Think the average western Buddhist put way too much adulation for their gurus, especially in TB.

    In other schools, the gurus actually earn it.
    SillyPuttylobster
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited June 2013
    Patr said:

    Think the average western Buddhist put way too much adulation for their gurus, especially in TB.

    In other schools, the gurus actually earn it.

    That is just your opinion that other schools earn it. Can you say a little more about a criterian (sic) for who earns and who does not earn? Are you saying that the sangha doesn't ponder whether their guru has some or all the qualities to teach.

    Again, as in other posts between us, check out the Jewel Ornament of Liberation. It sets down the qualities a teacher should have such as freedom from the kleshas, scholarship, the ability to dismiss kleshas in students, and likewise dispell wrong views. It's all in the JoL.
    lobster
  • PatrPatr Veteran
    The jol is definitely not mainstream, and only referred to by a fraction of TB followers.
    That's like saying the a newer document is valid without reference to the Bible, go figure.

    Other schools (excl Jap zen, as mentioned above). The brilliant monks get recognition over time, with the quality of students turned out and their exemplary behaviour.

    Definitely no drunks, womanizers, boorish, bullying and arrogance. They would be defrocked immediately. Definitely no instant recognitions, no tulkus.
    Definitely no revered status just by wearing a monks robes.
    THEY have to EARN their respect the hard way.

    This is precisely why you dont understand the importance of arhat status. You have no foundation. Lamaism has too much Tibetan culture and Hindu practices, the true vajrayana is very diluted.

    Look at the schisms within TB, their unacceptable practices, consort tantra, exalted status for the ruling lamas, revered status of gurus, goes back to aristocracy days, where status is assured by birth alone.

    Have you knowledge of the NIKAYAS, the core teachings. Without reading it, there is no foundation at all.
    lobstercaz
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    Yes but where did you find this? What criterian do you use? Lamas spend time in retreat for three years? One standard is not to be a drunk or a womanizer. Fine but it is only some gurus. Don't throw out all of the apples because of the bad ones.

    I feel the mind itself is the only foundation. I have done a study group of the Pali Canon. But mostly I am studying my lama's course.

    How do you know I don't respect an arhat? Do you know that for certain? I suspect it is a projection. As I mentioned I have studied the Pali Canon a wee bit. My undertaking of dependent origination is to study the nidanas and realize emptiness of skhandas. There are subtler teachings on emptiness, but I stick with the shravaka understanding because it is easier for me.

    You must have had a bad experience somewhere? I hope you are not just xenophobic and have had bad experience. You may not want to talk about it, I guess. Anyhow I never slam Theravada because I have respect for the students. They are lovely people.
    karmablues
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    Patr said:


    Definitely no revered status just by wearing a monks robes.
    THEY have to EARN their respect the hard way.

    Ideally, yes. But even in Sri Lanka anyone wearing robes gets automatic respect and deferential treatment. Even to the point of being above the law. This is only now beginning to change.

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran
    I always find it interesting, and amusing, when someone who doesn't live in the west makes such sweeping generalizations of people who do. I'm thankful to have access to a good teacher at all in my location.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    @Dakini, the two truths are not always practiced that way. A master said "my mind is as vast as the sky, but my conduct (respect of karma) is as fine as flour.

    What I am saying is that it isn't the two truths doctrine that is the culprit, rather it is the interpretation. If you say a guru is above morality that is a wrong interpretation. The two truths is to help understanding dependent origination without venturing to nihilism. The whole point of this is that a transcendent view of emptiness DOES NOT get us 'off the hook' with respects to a phenomenal world. If we do unkind things there is still karma.
    personriverflow
  • PatrPatr Veteran
    Only a few months back, the chief Theravada monk in Malaysia, the rev Dhammaratana was asked to appear before a tribunal, on why he shouldnt be disrobed.

    His mistake was to don a suit to receive an award, on that occasion alone. There were many calls calling for the punishment, with the news spreading through the mainstream press. Some might say this is a slight transgression, others were of the opposite opinion, thankfully he managed to explain his position.

    Last year a very famous Mahayana monk in Taiwan was disrobed when his followers 'followed' him and caught him in a tryst with a woman, also made big headlines. (cant recall his name)

    So you see, what happens in the west can hardly be repeated in many Asian countries. Of course there are the discreet ones, but you will surely not get drinking monks, or those who are not celibate continuing their activities unchallenged.

    Again I must say TB lamas are the worst transgressors in this area, maybe its the culture shock in a new country, maybe its their practices, maybe its that they were not monks by choice. Whatever it is, its a statement that bears truth, sadly.



    Buddhist practices and concepts all point to the training of the MIND, in extinguishing our cravings, in practicing morality, in subduing the untamed characteristics of our minds. The very first precepts anyone takes ask for abstention from intoxicants.
    Some of the forumners here think the Bodhisattva vows are more important, its a major DELUSION, propagated by those whose cravings are fed by this delusion. What utter BS.

    Lastly, anyone who succumbs to sexual and alcoholic cravings, what do you have.... a person with a weak mind/ character. So how then can this person teach us to abandon our weaknesses. "Do as I say, but not as I do".
    Jeffrey
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    I think it's nuanced regarding if intoxication leads to a weak mind. But that is more nuanced. There are many aspects of mind and some may be weak while others strong. I have a beer occasionally so I guess I have a weak mind. But in other respects I've worked really hard and I feel better since I have meditated and studied so much. I like your post patr, but I think we need to be careful not to have such a broad brushstroke that we incriminate all Tibetan Buddhists. Some have issues and some don't. But I found this post more balanced analysis and gentle speech than some of the other ones I have read. Regarding sex I guess this leads to a weak mind as well. With sex it is like food. You are hungry and so you eat. You are craving sex so just have it or masturbate and get it out of your system. It's very hard to break craving sex if you've had it throughout your adulthood. And having sex as opposed to misconduct wasn't a part of the precepts (for laypersons).
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    So how then can this person teach us to abandon our weaknesses. "Do as I say, but not as I do".
    Integrity.

    As a low life and low level Bodhi, it is not my capacity to be any better than the average sex maniac. If you want a perfect teacher, first become a perfect student . . .

    Compared to me, my teacher was far more 'refined' . . . not so most people would notice but then we are all, speaking for myself . . . rather superficial . . .
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran
    I don't think it's that most people think the Bodhisattva vow to be more important, just different, with a different goal in mind. Because that is how it is taught. @Patr, I'm apprehensive in reading what you have to say because you appear to be so against Tibetan Buddhism. It makes it hard for me, because that is what I study and it is as important to me, as your beliefs are to you.

    I most certainly am weak-minded. Today I was a sloth, crabby as all get-out and suffering with horrid nasal allergies. After dinner and dishes, I made myself a cup of tea to relax. Is that really any different when I look to tea to bring relaxation than if I looked to a glass of wine? Sometimes I do that, too. Any time I look to get out of the state of mind I am in, that is craving and thus weak-mindedness. Sometimes I crave intimacy with my husband, or salty foods, or fresh air, or time away. We all crave something, that is why we continue to practice and study. We are all weak minded.
    Jeffreyriverflowlobster
  • o my my...its not the teacher or teaching...its the student

    I and I happen to find 2 maggots in a dung pile to be very enlightening
    riverflowlobster
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    In an ideal but non existent world this side of the rainbow, we would be perfect. People put on robes or become politicians and we demand impeccable behaviour.
    @karasti is human, like all of us trying to implement, enable, empower or just be . . .
    human.

    Dharma is simple.
    All around us, in us, here now.
    We do our best, to understand, to allow the 'simple being' to sit with us. Is our innate nature at ease with flaws, and life's wonders?
    Yes? No? Practice?

    Simple.
    We become the message or expression of our being and that is perfect.
  • PatrPatr Veteran
    Have you taken the first five precepts? If not, then by all means do whatever it is, have plentiful sex, drink to your hearts content, or whatever.

    Its only when you have taken the precepts, that you abstain, anyone dont understand this..?? Now all monks, Yogis, Buddhist Gurus would have taken more than the five precepts. And no, its not okay to break any precepts once taken.

    If you think Im outspoken against TB, thats partly because, it needs to be said.
    Again, the major portion of transgressions against the Vinaya happen to be from that area.

    The great Tsongkhapa started a new school, the Gelugpa precisely because of the Vinaya transgressions that he saw happening with monks at the time. Go google it up, before responding.

    Yup, the vast majority of us are weak minded, thats why we learn about Buddhism, in order to set us upon the correct path. Then find a good Guru who has succeeded, Ajahn Brahm comes to mind, HE Trungpa Rinpoche of Kagyupa as well. The Rev Ngawang Tashi Chuphel Rinpoche of Sakyapa, who has spent more than 3 years in seclusion.


    One has to look at the picture from a different perspective. Try a different tack, ask your guru if its ok to break the precepts, doesnt have to be specifically about anyone.

    Lets have feedback.


    @Karasti
    I don't think it's that most people think the Bodhisattva vow to be more important, just different, with a different goal in mind. Because that is how it is taught. @Patr, I'm apprehensive in reading what you have to say because you appear to be so against Tibetan Buddhism. It makes it hard for me, because that is what I study and it is as important to me, as your beliefs are to you.

    Its best to widen your knowledge of Buddhist Dharma beforehand, study the NIKAYAS.
    Cant emphasize more on this.
  • PatrPatr Veteran
    Sorry, typo... its Trungam Gyaltrul, not Trungpa...haha :D
  • Trying to walk the path of Buddhism, is useless. One is filled with ideas of right and wrong. Stop trying, admit your confusion and suffering...it is the way to true compassion and understanding.
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    edited June 2013
    Patr said:

    Sorry, typo... its Trungam Gyaltrul, not Trungpa...haha :D

    So would that be the same Trungam Gyaltrul Rinpoche who was given his title by the 16th Karmapa who described Trungpa Rinpoche's Dharma centre as the 'best we have in the USA ' ?
    And would it be the same Trungam Gyaltrul Rinpoche whose root guru is Khenpo Tsultrim Rinpoche who has a whole page on the Chronicles of Chogyam Trungpa website where he praises Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche ?
    The same Khenpo Tsultrim Rinpoche whose students are Lama Shenpen and Rigdzin Shikpo whose root guru was Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche ? ( and who also have a page of fulsome praise on the Chronicles Of Chogyam Trungpa site ).

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited June 2013
    Moderator note:

    Resist temptations to become confrontational or argumentative.
    Thanks.

  • howhow Veteran
    The mara of teachers & teachings is of little import if our own mara is ignored.

    What is letting go in Buddhism?
    For a natural warrior it's becoming defenceless.
    For the passioned evangelist it's becoming silent,
    For the mentalist it's becoming simple
    For the..well you get my drift.

    Most of our tendancies are reflections of our conditioned responses.
    Fair or foul, the more interesting question is be couragous enough to ask is
    "what really supports my identity and what disolves it"?

    If your practise is now, wouldn't this thread would be the place to display it?
  • PatrPatr Veteran
    karasti said:

    I always find it interesting, and amusing, when someone who doesn't live in the west makes such sweeping generalizations of people who do. I'm thankful to have access to a good teacher at all in my location.


    Err if you're talking about me.... thats bcos i watched incredibly lots of hollywood movies where I learned my Englishses and Americans.



    .
    .
    .
    .
    .

    Actually thats only half true, I did watch lots of rubbish on screen, its only bcos I spent 5 years in London, where I actually read for my Engineering degree. Apart from time spent sloshing Yorkshire's best.

    In the East, we have all three Yanas well represented, in fact 'Longchen Nyigthig" is right next door. So thats why we know a wee bit bout all three.
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