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My Guru Was A Drunk.

24

Comments

  • Is the enlightened man subject to the law of causation [i.e., karma]?'

    `The enlightened man is one with the law of causation.'


    Those who are ignorant of karma dwell in an animal realm. Those who understand karma understand the value of generosity and virtue and practice them accordingly. Those who don't practice generosity and virtue are ignorant of karma.

    It's easy to confuse generosity and virtue with conventional morality, which often really is just arbitrary worldly rules. But convention does often intersect with the prescriptions implied by karma. That doesn't invalidate those prescriptions.

    The negative karmic consequences of Trungpa's unvirtuous behaviors are obvious and severe. It doesn't matter whether you think he was enlightened or 'awake' or not, "By their fruits ye shall know them." The drinking, the violence, the promiscuity: the mind leading to these actions, at least, was not heedful of karma.
    MaryAnneCinorjer
  • PatrPatr Veteran
    Maybe the rich should have their own set of rules as well,.... something we peasants can only aspire to.
    But we can always pretend! :)
    CinorjerInvincible_summer
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    riverflow said:

    Probably not a good idea to confuse antinomianism with "enlightenment."

    That's what the topic is really about, that faith alone is sufficient for salvation.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    riverflow said:

    Probably not a good idea to confuse antinomianism with "enlightenment."

    This is an almost impossible line to draw in some forms of Tantric Buddhism.

  • riverflow said:

    Probably not a good idea to confuse antinomianism with "enlightenment."

    Had to google antinomianism. I was raised in a "faith alone" little country church but I don't think those country folk ever knew that was what they were preaching. Learn something knew every day.

  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    edited June 2013
    @betaboy
    Enlightenment and a being who is enlightened IS the ceasing from evil, doing only good & the purifying of the heart.

    What you call the privilege of an enlightened person, most meditaters would say is
    the manifestation of a worldly imprisoned mind. This type of mind would also see no harm in creating flaming posts for one's entertainment..
    MaryAnneriverflowLucy_Begood
  • In the Vimamsaka Sutta, the Buddha advises that:
    The Tathagata, Bhikkhus, should be examined by a monk, an investigator... so that he knows whether the Blessed One is fully self-awakened or not.

    The Buddha then instructs that the investigator should visually observe and carefully listen whether the Buddha’s actions or speech is defiled in any way and whether the Buddha’s conduct is purified or not as well as whether such purity is long-standing or fleeting.
    “The Tathagata, Bhikkhus, should be examined in two ways by a monk who is an investigator... that is, states cognizable by the eye or by the ear, thus:

    'Are defiled states cognizable by the eye or by the ear found in the Tathagata or not?’

    When investigating this, he comes to know thus, ‘Defiled states cognizable by the eye or by the ear are not found in the Tathagata.’

    .....

    He investigates him further:

    ‘Are there purified states cognizable by the eye or by the ear found in the Tathagata
    or not?’

    While investigating him thus, he knows that ‘Purified states cognizable by the eye or by the ear are found in the Tathagata.’

    ......

    He investigates him further:

    ‘Has this venerable one attained to this wholesome state for a long time, or has he attained it for a short while [temporarily]?’

    While investigating him thus, he knows that ‘This venerable one has attained to this wholesome state for a long time. This venerable one has not attained it for a short while.’

    The test does not end here and the Bhikkhus are told to investigate further, but for the purposes of this discussion, it is sufficient to note here that undefiled, pure conduct is said to be an essential characteristic of enlightened beings.
  • betaboybetaboy Veteran
    I think I am being misunderstood. I will put it differently.

    For instance, let us say a guy drinks all the time and does not have the willpower to stop. If he becomes enlightened, he will get an insight into the nature of the world, samsara, the sorrow - that doesn't mean he'll magically acquire the willpower to stop drinking. His addictions will continue because enlightened or not, he is still human with a frail body, mind, etc.

    So, pre-enlightenment - addictions are present - karma is generated.
    Post-enlightenment - addictions are present - karma is negated.

    So I am not suggesting that an enlightened person should purposely break rules but, if he did, it would have no karmic consequences.
    riverflowCinorjerLucy_Begood
  • karmablueskarmablues Veteran
    edited June 2013
    Addictions are present due to the defilements. An enlightened being is free of defilements and thus post-enlightenment, he will necessarily be free of addictions.

    Anyways, for things like addiction to alcohol which is a very coarse type of addiction, even someone who is not that much developed along the path and still far from enlightenment should still be able to overcome such addiction.

    Look at the addicts who have been able to give up drugs, drinking or smoking. Yes, they have strength and other good qualities, but they are more or less just ordinary folks. I gave up smoking a long time ago. So I know it really doesn't take that much to give up an addiction.

    Also, we should consider that most people who drink do not get addicted to alcohol. So it doesn't take much to prevent oneself from becoming addicted to alcohol or to abstain from taking substances when they know doing so might lead them becoming addicted.
    rivercanePatrMaryAnne
  • PatrPatr Veteran
    Has anyone seen a Theravada or Mahayana (excl TB, Jap zen, which i dont know much about) monk going around drunk in his robes.

    Sigh, sigh, sigh!

    Dont be a sexual predator, alcoholic, or spiritual thug... but its ok for me as im ENLIGHTENED, whoooa! Amen.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited June 2013
    There are scandals among Theravadan monks. I believe iirc that @vinylyn has said that.

    What is your criterion for a spiritual thug?

    I have slept with women. Does that make me a 'sexual predator'?

    Trungpa wore suits not robes. ;)

    Has anyone seen Mahayanists call all the Theravadin teachers thugs? Maybe on a different website.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    Right Speech has four aspects: 1. Not lying, but speaking the truth, 2. Avoiding rude and coarse words, but using gentle speech beneficial to the listener, 3. Not slandering, but promoting friendliness and unity, 4. Avoiding frivolous speech, but saying only what is appropriate and beneficial.
    riverflow
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited June 2013
    @betaboy, you're completely wrong. The point of a monk going for alms is that they are training to give up the struggle for survival itself. I.e., if there was a famine, they would ideally starve to death, rather than struggle for food in place of others who need it. That's a necessary though insufficient condition for enlightenment as the Buddha understood it, and a much stricter criterion than just abandoning addiction to alcohol.

    @Jeffrey, you're the one who's making this about mahayana/theravada. We were talking about whether Trungpa is enlightened. Patr asked whether a monk of either tradition has been seen going about drunk. (But actually, I am certain the answer is yes, many times.)
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    Jeffrey said:

    RELEVENTThere are scandals among Theravadan monks. I believe iirc that @vinylyn has said that.

    Has anyone seen a Theravada or Mahayana (excl TB, Jap zen, which i dont know much about) monk going around drunk in his robes.

    RELEVANTWhat is your criterion for a spiritual thug?

    RELEVANTI have slept with women. Does that make me a 'sexual predator'?

    Dont be a sexual predator, alcoholic, or spiritual thug... but its ok for me as im ENLIGHTENED, whoooa! Amen.

    Dont be a sexual predator, alcoholic, or spiritual thug... but its ok for me as im ENLIGHTENED, whoooa! Amen.
    HUMOR NOTE THE SMILEY FACE Trungpa wore suits not robes. ;)
    going around drunk in his robes.
    IRRELEVANT Has anyone seen Mahayanists call all the Theravadin teachers thugs? Maybe on a different website.

    @fivebells most of my comments were relevant to patr post just not the last one.

  • betaboybetaboy Veteran
    *sighs*

    All I am saying is: a person may have good intentions, noble thoughts. But without enormous willpower, those noble intents wont translate to actions. A person is not 'bad' or 'unenlightened' on this account. An enlightened person may continue to do 'bad' things, not because he has bad desires or motives, but because the willpower to change them is lacking. Lacking willpower is no proof that a person isn't enlightened.
    Cinorjer
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    edited June 2013
    Adding a little sass to the discussion, check out the monk-run Vowz Bar in Tokyo.
  • betaboy said:

    All I am saying is: a person may have good intentions, noble thoughts. But without enormous willpower, those noble intents wont translate to actions. A person is not 'bad' or 'unenlightened' on this account.

    What do you mean by enlightened? I don't think your understanding is the same as the Buddha's.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited June 2013
    betaboy said:


    So I am not suggesting that an enlightened person should purposely break rules but, if he did, it would have no karmic consequences.

    What if someone is harmed by him, due to his drunkenness, which he doesn't have the willpower to stop? Will there be karmic consequences to the harm a sentient being suffered, due to the enlightened being's actions?
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited June 2013
    Why are we considering that Trungpa was enlightened at all? He was raised and educated to be the head of a lineage. That's all. He learned all the lessons a person in that position was required to learn. Like getting a BA or MA or whatever in philosophy. In his autobiography he never claims to be enlightened. He's just a teacher. He was expected to maintain a certain discipline, and he did, until he reached the West, and then, as he presciently predicted would happen, he lost his moral compass entirely. He wrote that this is exactly what happens when monks leave the strict discipline of the monastic environment.

    Where did the claim of enlightenment come from? Not from him. In his autobio he describes the need to discipline Western Buddhists, because they have a wrong understanding of Buddhism. He still very much sees himself in the role of teacher and representative of his lineage. Nothing is mentioned about enlightenment. He seems himself as fully human like anyone else, and nothing more than a teacher.
    MaryAnnekarmabluesPatrThaiLotus
  • @Dakini, @Citta says he was awake. That may be different from enlightenment, but it doesn't really change the question for me, which is if that's awake, what's awake good for.
    Dakini
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    @fivebells a lot of his students are class acts. That could justify his 'awakeness'.
  • He did a lot of good, that is for sure.
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    edited June 2013
    fivebells said:

    @Dakini, @Citta says he was awake. That may be different from enlightenment, but it doesn't really change the question for me, which is if that's awake, what's awake good for.

    In a word: meaning. What any religion is good for.

  • Lazy_eyeLazy_eye Veteran
    edited June 2013
    genkaku said:

    Adding a little sass to the discussion, check out the monk-run Vowz Bar in Tokyo.

    The article doesn't say what branch of Buddhism these monks are associated with. But if it's Jodo Shinshu...well, their relationship to the precepts is somewhat different. See here for a discussion:

    http://jodoshin-dharma.blogspot.com/2011/07/precepts-and-jodo-shinshu.html

    Also, looking at the Sokka Gakkai website, I notice this comment:

    "Strict observation of the precepts, in the sense of restrictions on behavior, has been supplanted by the ideal of compassionate bodhisattva practice--the self-motivated actions of lay believers fully integrated into the social life of their community who ease the suffering and contribute to the well-being of the members of that community."
    Japanese Zen, meanwhile, has Ikkyu, who hung out in bars and brothels.

    I don't know if there's a similar line of thinking found in Trungpa's Vajrayana tradition, with which I'm almost totally unfamiliar. I have studied parts of the Avatamsaka Sutra, though, and it seems to show pretty emphatically that the bodhisattva motivation trumps all other concerns, including precepts. For instance, the sutra includes a story about a bodhisattva who manifests as a prostitute.

  • Lazy_eyeLazy_eye Veteran
    edited June 2013


    I used to know a guy who drank a lot and had sex with numerous women (as well as men). He was one of the greatest thinkers of our time. People would flock to him and ask him for advice about life. His words were golden. But I wouldn't dare say that Christopher Hitchens was "supremely awake." Or does it only count when they are labeled "Buddhist" and take vows? :coffee:

    @SillyPutty,

    Whoa, you knew Hitch?!? How did that come about? What was he like in person (besides the sexing and boozing)?

    Sorry for the two posts in a row but I could hardly ignore this... one of the greatest prose writers of his era...
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited June 2013
    My question still stands. Where did the idea that Trungpa was "awake" (or "liberated" or whatever term anyone prefers) originate? I don't believe he ever made that claim about himself. Is this something his students projected onto him? If so, then in view of his behavior, they might consider that they were mistaken in their projection. They should take responsibility for their own illusions. Perhaps the impression of being awake came from the teacher's own attempts at self-aggrandizement? The hierarchies he created in the sangha, or perhaps from some teaching he gave about bodhisattvas being above "mundane" morality? Yet, he never claimed to be a bodhisattva or above mundane morality, did he? Was it just assumed by his students that he was?

    Could anyone who was a student of his back in the day fill us in on who or what generated this idea that this particular teacher was "awake"? AFAIK, all he did was what so many other monks and tulkus do, which is: complete extensive schooling in the Tibetan Dharma texts, and perform extended meditation sessions. I gather that he was good at teaching the concepts in English, and in a way young people of the 60's and 70's could understand (though not without controversy due to some unorthodox methods), so that's a valuable skill. So why not say he was a good teacher and brilliant author? Why attribute semi-Divine (or Buddha-like) qualities to him?
    MaryAnne
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited June 2013
    @Dakini, I am pretty sure he was awake just reading his books. I don't know if he was or became (at death) a Buddha but I know his teachings. I recommend reading Ocean of Dharma which is 365 one page teachings by Trungpa. His knowledge and brilliance is self evident.

    I do recall reading that he became enlightened at death. And yes it was some students who believed this.

    Remember Trungpa was a layperson though a teacher. That is different from a monk. I am referring to the sex and alcohol. I am also a layperson and I have sex and alcohol. There is a difference of course since I am not a teacher. Yet even so there is a difference between a teaching monk and a teaching layperson.

    Awakening is seen by quality of understanding the dharma in one context. In that context TR was awake. If the pinacle of Buddhsim were the five precepts you would have to say at least 50% of us on the forum practice all five and thus most of us are Buddhas?? Clearly insight is more hard to come by than morality.

    In a sangha I went to the zen priest was introduced to me as "bodhisattva frank (or whatever)". So it isn't unthinkable that someone be recognized as a bodhisattva in their lifetime. Trungpa never went around declaring himself as such.
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    I've met well studied geshes that were quite bright and knowledgable, happy and charismatic too. And I've met rinpoches that had just as much learning but also had a quality of being that is hard to describe but that is quite apparent when you meet them. They are present and peaceful and warm in a way that is palpable, that will soak into your being.

    Maybe it is possible to come across this way and not be awake, I don't know.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    person said:

    I've met well studied geshes that were quite bright and knowledgable, happy and charismatic too. And I've met rinpoches that had just as much learning but also had a quality of being that is hard to describe but that is quite apparent when you meet them. They are present and peaceful and warm in a way that is palpable, that will soak into your being.

    Maybe it is possible to come across this way and not be awake, I don't know.

    Where have you met all these wonderful teachers, @person? You've been fortunate.

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    I wouldn't say that's "all" he did. He was (as I understand) working on building the enlightened community that he spoke of. He opened 100+ meditation centers. He had the confidence of HHDL, the 16th Karmapa, and many others. According to wiki, he was seen as being a perfect buddhadharma master by many other masters. Some of the highest people in Tibetan Buddhism had very high things to say as far as his mastery and his awakeness.
    I did find this quote, which I think is worth keeping in mind with anyone we come across:
    As the third Jamgön Kongtrül explained in a teaching given to students of Chögyam Trungpa, "You shouldn't imitate or judge the behavior of your teacher, Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche, unless you can imitate his mind."
    Jeffreykarmablues
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited June 2013
    Buddha like qualities might be similar to teaching and embodying the dharma. He embodied the dharma by dedicating his life to it. I think divine is a stretch as it could obfuscate what you are trying to convey, @Dakini. After all Buddhism does not have a belief in divinities other than the devas and Trungpa was never considered a deva.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    @Dakini, I think a motive of the students to value their guru is that this devotion energizes them in their lives and Buddhist practice. For example I feel supported and blessed by my Lama. Sometimes we cannot practice for ourselves but we practice for someone else. So it feels good to have confidence in the guru. I'm guessing that's why it happens.

    What do you think of that?
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    Dakini said:

    person said:

    I've met well studied geshes that were quite bright and knowledgable, happy and charismatic too. And I've met rinpoches that had just as much learning but also had a quality of being that is hard to describe but that is quite apparent when you meet them. They are present and peaceful and warm in a way that is palpable, that will soak into your being.

    Maybe it is possible to come across this way and not be awake, I don't know.

    Where have you met all these wonderful teachers, @person? You've been fortunate.

    I live around Minneapolis/St. Paul, which has the second highest population of Tibetans in the US so accomplished teachers regularly pass through here. Also, I spent a few months once in India and Nepal and met several there too.
  • karmablueskarmablues Veteran
    edited June 2013
    Lazy_eye said:

    I don't know if there's a similar line of thinking found in Trungpa's Vajrayana tradition, with which I'm almost totally unfamiliar. I have studied parts of the Avatamsaka Sutra, though, and it seems to show pretty emphatically that the bodhisattva motivation trumps all other concerns, including precepts. For instance, the sutra includes a story about a bodhisattva who manifests as a prostitute.

    I had a look at the Avatamsaka Sutra. It's very long so I will focus on what is perhaps the core of the Sutra which is the ten great vows of the great bodhisattva Samantabhadra. I think it shows clearly that morality/virtue/precepts are extremely important.

    It is said that, historically, there are four famous bodhisattva. Each symbolizes the Buddha's emphasis on different aspects of Dharma practices. They are Avalokitesvara's compassion, Manjushri's wisdom, Samantabhadra's practice, and Ksitigarbha's vow. Samantabhadra is also called the Great Conduct Bodhisattva, a name that reflects his practice of Buddhism through his famous Ten Great Vows.

    It is said that Samantabhadra's primary concern was centered on the conduct of regular Buddhists, that is, how they should put the Buddhist principles into practice. He is also the patron of the Lotus Sutra and, according to the Avatamsaka Sutra, made the ten great vows which are the basis of a bodhisattva.


    The Ten Great Vows of Bodhisattva Samantabhadra
    "Good men, even if all the Buddha’s of all the ten directions were to speak continuously, for as many eons as there are fine motes of dust in a incalculable number of Buddha lands (worlds), the merits and virtues of the Buddha could never be fully described.

    Those wishing to achieve these merits and virtues should cultivate ten vast
    and great practices and vows
    . What are these ten?
    .....

    Fourth, Repent and reform misdeeds and evil karmas (actions).

    [Commentary on the fourth vow based on Lin Sen-shou's article: Samantabhadra's fourth vow is to repent and reform his misdeeds. He stated that all of us have accumulated misdeeds and wrongdoings stemming from our thoughts, words, or actions throughout our past lives. Therefore, we should repent our mistakes before the buddhas or bodhisattvas in order to be cleansed from all impurities and filth. We should also vow not to make the same mistakes again.]
    ......

    I vow all living beings will be constantly happy without sickness or suffering. I vow that no one will succeed in doing any evil, but that all will quickly perfect their cultivation of good karma.
    .....

    At that time the great Bodhisattva Samantabhadra, wishing to restate his meaning, contemplated everywhere in the ten directions and spoke in verse [as follows:]

    Before the Buddha’s "Lions Among Men,"
    Through out the worlds of the ten directions,
    in the past, in the present, and also in the future,
    With Body, Speech and Mind entirely pure,
    I bow down before them all, omitting none.
    .....

    For all the evil deeds I have done in the past,
    Created by my body, speech, and mind,
    From beginning-less greed, anger, and delusion,
    I now know shame and repent them all
    .
    .......

    In my practice striving for Buddhahood,
    I will gain the knowledge of my past lives
    In all destinies.
    I will always leave the home-life and cultivate pure precepts,
    Without default, never broken, and without stain.

    .....

    I will cultivate the pure paramitas with vigor (my note: one of the paramitas is Sila ie. morality/virtue/proper conduct),
    and never abandon the Bodhi Mind.
    I will banish all Obstructions and defilements,
    And fulfill all wondrous practices.
    ......

    I now transfer all good roots, and I vow
    To perform deeds of wisdom identical to his.
    I vow that my body, speech and mind will be forever pure,
    And that all practices and lands will be also.
    I vow in every way to be identical
    To the wisdom of Samantabhadra.
    I will wholly purify Samantabhadra’s conduct,
    And the great vows of Manjushri as well.
    .....

    When the great Bodhisattva Samantabhadra finished speaking these pure verses on the great Vows of Samantabhadra before the Buddha, the youth Sudhana was overwhelmed with boundless joy. All the Bodhisattvas were extremely happy as well, and the Buddha applauded saying "Good indeed, Good Indeed…"
    PatrJeffrey
  • Lazy_eyeLazy_eye Veteran
    edited June 2013
    Dauntingly long -- the Thomas Cleary translation clocks in at over 1500 pages in a teensy font! I have only read a few chapters.

    In the last chapter, "Entry into the Realm of Reality," a young seeker named Sudhana undertakes a spiritual quest and meets 52 great teachers including Avalokiteshvara. One of the teachers is the bodhisattva Vasumitra, who manifests in the world as a courtesan or high-class prostitute.

    Sudhana actually gets warned off visiting her by some dogmatic types who cannot see how she might have anything to teach him, but he goes anyway and hears this:
    I have attained an enlightening liberation called 'ultimately dispassionate'....All who come to me with minds full of passion, I teach them so they can become free of passion. Those who have heard my teaching and attain dispassion achieve an enlightening concentration called 'realm of nonattachment'.

    Some attain dispassion as soon as they see me and achieve an enlightening concentration called 'delight in joy'. Some attain dispassion merely by talking with me, and achieve an enlightening concentration called 'treasury of unimpeded sound'. Some attain dispassion just by holding my hand, and achieve an enlightening concentration called 'basis of going to all buddha-lands'. Some attain dispassion just by staying with me, and achieve an enlightening concentration called 'light of freedom from bondage'. Some attain dispassion just by gazing at me, and achieve an enlightening concentration called 'tranquil expression'. Some attain dispassion just by embracing me, and achieve an enlightening concentration called 'womb receiving all sentient beings without rejection.' Some attain dispassion just by kissing me, and attain an enlightening concentration called 'contact with the treasury of virtue of all beings...
    (pages 1271-72)

    If a bodhisattva can appear in the guise of a prostitute and enlighten people via sex, then theoretically someone like Trungpa could have achieved some sort of awakening despite being a drunk. I'm just saying...
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited June 2013
    Lazy_eye said:



    If a bodhisattva can appear in the guise of a prostitute and enlighten people via sex, then theoretically someone like Trungpa could have achieved some sort of awakening despite being a drunk. I'm just saying...

    It's stories like that that gurus use to justify their sexual affairs with students, a practice not foreign to Trungpa himself. This type of mythology is part of the problem, not part of the solution.

  • karmablueskarmablues Veteran
    edited June 2013
    @Lazy_eye

    I feel your proposition (ie. that "the bodhisattva motivation trumps all other concerns, including precepts") is too dangerous of a misrepresentation of the Buddha's teachings that I'm sorry I can't just let this one pass by.

    I couldn't find the entire last chapter of the Sutra you refer to, just excerpts on it. But from what I can make of it, there is no evidence that bodhisattva Vasumitra was actually a real prostitute, so I think the proper way to see this story is that she was merely pretending to be one.

    Also from the quoted text you provide, the acts which caused beneficial results include: seeing the bodhisattva, talking to her, holding her hand, being in her company, gazing at her, embracing her and kissing her. From the quoted text you provide and the various excerpts I've been able to find online, there is no mention of bodhisattva Vasumitra allowing any sexual acts beyond just kissing to be performed on her by the men.

    Also, breaking precepts includes the element of intention. So this makes the possibility that bodhisattva Vasumitra might be breaking a precept even more remote since her intentions were pure rather than being based on defilements. Therefore this makes your proposition that "the bodhisattva motivation trumps all other concerns, including precepts" even more difficult to be justified by this story.
    Jeffrey said:

    If the pinacle of Buddhsim were the five precepts you would have to say at least 50% of us on the forum practice all five and thus most of us are Buddhas?? Clearly insight is more hard to come by than morality.

    In Thervada, we have the ten perfections (paramitas). In Mahayana there are six, but both schools include Sila (Morality) as one of the perfections.

    Ajahn Chah use to say that greater morality leads to greater insight and greater insight leads to greater morality ie. each is reinforcing one another in a virtuous cycle. At least if you look at your own experience I am sure you can see how when your understanding of the Dhamma increases, the purity of your conduct also becomes more refined. The effect morality has on insight is more difficult to observe but as theory goes, morality helps with concentration and thus this helps with meditation. As meditation improves, this leads to greater insight.

    Regarding the practice of morality under the Mahayana's six paramitas, here is what Lama Thubten Zopa Rinpoche says:
    Our generating bodhicitta and making the vow to follow the bodhisattva's deeds means that we promise to work for all sentient beings, so that they too might attain the ornament of the [morality] to progress to full enlightenment, thereby attaining the true meaning of [morality]. Before that, we must develop the strength to keep our own precepts of [morality] pure.

    If these degenerate and become impure we fall into the lower realms and cannot even fulfill our own purpose, let alone that of others. Therefore, those who take the precepts, attempting to bring others' success by leading them to enlightenment, need to keep an extremely tight grip, vigilantly protecting body, speech and mind from non-virtue, [lest their precepts get lost].

    Keeping the precepts purely depends on adhering to the points of practice and avoidance as they were explained. This follows the strong wish and enthusiastic determination to keep the precepts, which arise from the understanding achieved through meditating long on the benefits of keeping precepts and the shortcomings of not. It is vital to be aware of the dangers, the suffering results, of breaking or not keeping precepts, and also to understand the need to avoid the smallest and lightest negativities, the actions which the Enlightened Being has said are to be avoided.

    Those who observe the precepts of practicing the perfection of [morality] benefit by the gradual transcendence of their mind. The level of the precepts in their mind develops to the same level as those of the great bodhisattvas and they receive purely the transcendent wisdom which has completely removed even the seeds of all negativities.

    .....

    The reason for observing the perfection of [morality] should be to lead all sentient beings into that perfection. We should destroy the thought that wishes only for release from the dangers of the lower suffering realms and expects the temporal perfections of the god and human realms.

    .......

    This includes [virtues] such as following the four complete bodhisattva's actions, fulfilling the purpose of the present and future lives of sentient beings, with the eleven different forms of work and without the non-virtue of corrupting precepts. Saying that precepts such as the five, the eight, the thirty-six and the two hundred and fifty-three—the pratimoksha vows—are only Theravadin vows, and to avoid their practice by saying that we are following the bodhisattva's vows, comes from understanding neither the basic points of the bodhisattva's vow of [morality] nor the bodhisattva's training in [morality].

    By the way, as a final note, I just want to clarify that none of my comments in this thread are meant as an attack on CTR in any way. In fact, I would like to ask whether it ever occurred to anyone that perhaps all these stories about CTR are just that, ie. stories. I mean people who have met him are saying he always seemed to be "awake". So how can anyone know for sure that he was ever drunk? Did anyone ever make him breathe into a breathalyzer? Did anyone ever caught him on video being violent or sexually abusive?

    Given the many accomplished students he had, I am inclined to believe that stories about his violence, womanizing and drunkenness are just unsubstantiated rumours . I think it is very possible that HHDL and other learned Tibetan masters hold CTR in high regard because either (1) they never heard stories about him being violent/drunk/womanizing or (2) they heard such stories but shrugged them off as mere gossip/rumours.


    Jeffrey
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    edited June 2013
    @karmablues, That link you provide claims that these claims are BS, but doesn't provide any corroboration for that. At the very least, he could track down the citations given on wikipedia and discredit them in some way. (The claims are back there now, and there is an extensive rebuttal of the elephantjournal post you linked on the talk page.)
  • karmablueskarmablues Veteran
    edited June 2013
    @fivebells My main point is that the various allegations being made about CTR are not proven by hard evidence. So as long as I haven't seen what is alleged with my own eyes then I needn't believe allegations based on personal accounts of three people I don't know (There might be more but the link you provide mentions just three people). If I personally knew some of these people and knew them to be trustworthy then I would be more inclined to give some weight to their accounts. But as that is not the case, then what is needed is hard evidence.

    Think about the various conspiracy stories about freemasons that has circulated worldwide. We have thousands of websites, books and articles dedicated to spreading these various allegations about freemasons as if they were "facts". To be honest, some of it seems pretty convincing. But is it right to believe these allegations without hard evidence?

    I think innocent until proven guilty is the proper approach.
  • A good dhammic perspective, I guess. Focus on the positive, like sipping the rain out of a cow print.
  • SillyPuttySillyPutty Veteran
    edited June 2013
    Lazy_eye said:


    I used to know a guy who drank a lot and had sex with numerous women (as well as men). He was one of the greatest thinkers of our time. People would flock to him and ask him for advice about life. His words were golden. But I wouldn't dare say that Christopher Hitchens was "supremely awake." Or does it only count when they are labeled "Buddhist" and take vows? :coffee:

    @SillyPutty,

    Whoa, you knew Hitch?!? How did that come about? What was he like in person (besides the sexing and boozing)?

    Sorry for the two posts in a row but I could hardly ignore this... one of the greatest prose writers of his era...
    *rewind*

    Sorry-- I didn't mean it like it sounded. "I used to know *of* a guy..." would have been a better way to phrase it. I was just trying to sound colorful and mysterious in the build up to my point.

    So, no, I did not know Hitchens personally. Although, there was a very prominent atheist writer I was very close to who ran in that circle whom actually dedicated his first book to me. :vimp: Also used to talk to a couple other very famous atheist celebrity figures and nearly had a fling with two of them. Decided against it since I consider sex a very powerful thing and I almost feel like someone steals your mojo if you do it with just anyone. (I've seen how dangerous it can be... being a sensitive/empathic person, you really take on the other person's baggage and lose your "good stuff" when you "become one" with another in that sense. "They" say it literally takes a year to get rid of someone's energy after you've slept with them. Who knows if that's true. But I kinda feel that it is true and I've seen the dangers of sleeping with the wrong person-- and I've only ever slept with 2 people in my life, and one of 'em was my ex-husband. And I saw as soon as I slept with him, my "3rd eye" abilities went *poof* and it's like I became... sorta... tainted. Weird, eh? But anyway, that's why I choose to be celibate. The older I get, the less I find anyone worthy of my magical va-jay-jay. :lol: Nice random side story, eh?)

    But so... yeah, that's my nearly-name-dropping explanation. Forgive the ego and sex talk... I'm still working on that whole "no-self" thing and my libido has been out of control lately... I am a Leo after all. :D
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    I've had the impression that CTR was simply a drunk. I thought that his sexual relations were generally in the context of a relationship and have never heard about any violence. Am I wrong about this?
    Jeffrey
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    My lama says that there should be a sign above the doors to the sangha meeting place that says "sleep with the guru at your own risk".
    personSillyPutty
  • @person, there were accusations of violence against him.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    I think @fivebells is talking about the poet and his wife or girlfriend. They turned in to go to bed at a retreat. Supposedly Trungpa was challenging this 'closing off' response to get the privacy. They were dragged into the meeting place. Hmmm my imagination runs wild I think they were throwing bats at him so he could bite their heads off :p

    Anyhow they were brought to the gathering evidentally forcibly and I don't know exactly then, but I think someone poured alcohol on them. Don't quote me on that but it is in wikipedia (or at least used to be).

    Of note the poet and his wife didn't leave the retreat and continued to hear Trungpa's dharma talks.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    He often combined drinking with teaching. David Chadwick recounts:[61] "Suzuki [Roshi] asked Trungpa to give a talk to the students in the zendo the next night. Trungpa walked in tipsy and sat on the edge of the altar platform with his feet dangling. But he delivered a crystal-clear talk, which some felt had a quality – like Suzuki's talks – of not only being about the dharma but being itself the dharma." However, in some instances, he was too drunk to walk, and had to be carried.[57] Also, according to the Steinbecks, on a couple of occasions his speech was unintelligible.[62] One woman reported serving him "big glasses of gin first thing in the morning."[27]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chögyam_Trungpa

  • SillyPuttySillyPutty Veteran
    edited June 2013
    Jeffrey said:

    He often combined drinking with teaching. David Chadwick recounts:[61] "Suzuki [Roshi] asked Trungpa to give a talk to the students in the zendo the next night. Trungpa walked in tipsy and sat on the edge of the altar platform with his feet dangling. But he delivered a crystal-clear talk, which some felt had a quality – like Suzuki's talks – of not only being about the dharma but being itself the dharma." However, in some instances, he was too drunk to walk, and had to be carried.[57] Also, according to the Steinbecks, on a couple of occasions his speech was unintelligible.[62] One woman reported serving him "big glasses of gin first thing in the morning."[27]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chögyam_Trungpa

    Sounds like Amy Winehouse. Not making a joke about it, either. I used to be friendly with this composer (who actually did the soundtrack to a rather popular Buddhist-related film... oh, there I go "almost-name-dropping" again :lol: ) who wanted to work with Amy Winehouse so badly. He used to tell me that he thought that she was utterly brilliant. (And this guy knows pure talent when he sees it... he's worked with so many legends.) Even though she was high/drunk/what have you, she was flawless when she performed. It was like she became possessed and her timing and pitch was perfect. But then once the song was over, she'd fall over and people would have to help her out of the building. He loved to study her performances. He was in complete awe of her ability to shine when she was intoxicated. Sounds like the same weird effect that was going on with Trungpa.


  • As far as rumors vs reality goes;
    notice that those who support and/ or defend Trungpa (not only in this forum, but everywhere), have always made excuses, or redefined the 'intent' (or personal helplessness) of his alcohol & drug use - as well as his sexually predatory actions towards students; or, they simply excuse the behavior as some sort of mystical or divine 'privilege' or savant madness, etc.

    But never do you read or hear of them specifically saying:
    "That never happened...."

    That leads me to think it's safe to say that while there may be an element of exaggeration included in some of the stories, they are, nevertheless, pretty much true. And most of the stories can be cross- referenced between several sources.

    SillyPutty
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