Letting go.

Citta

" One of the most difficult things for westerners to understand is that meditation is not about making anything happen ".

Dom John Main.


What do you think ?

federica

I agree.

Gui

It is not even to make meditation happen.

Citta

To quote Alan Watts, to make meditation happen is like ' taking medicine which only works if you do not think of monkeys as you take it '
As soon as you try not to think of monkeys..you have thought of ...?

how

I think this understanding of meditation is really a wider species issue that transcends "Western" boundaries..

The basis for this misunderstanding is a human belief that each of us
is an autonomous identity that is capable of possessing an understanding of meditation.

Meditation is actually just a lack of maintenance of that identity.

It is not that understanding is impossible,
it's that in the absence of this identity,
only understanding
remains.

Citta

Indeed. Being an entity that does this and that , and believes this and that, in order to have a 'self' is exhausting and full time work.

Theswingisyellow

For me meditation is just perceiving.
For me it gets back to aligning myself with reality.
This furthers our mindfulness in daily life
We learn to see and live in accordance with a what is, not what we want it to be.
Just thinking out loud.

zenff

Adyashanti I think says meditation is "not manipulating".

I like to think of meditation is a process. I don’t do it. It happens.

All I “do” is that I put my trust in this process of meditation which happens autonomously.

Dakini

Who cares? Just meditate.

:thumbsup:

karmablues

Why just westerners in particular? I'd say it would be just as difficult for many Thais to be able to see it from that perspective.

fivebells

I think plenty of meditation is about making things not happen, and skillful happenings are often a way to do that. For instance, the Dzogchen hidden teaching on the precepts is a set of perceptions or fabrications or both. If those are brought to mind during meditation, that is a happening, and that's OK as long as it leads to a good result.

seeker242

Citta said:

" One of the most difficult things for westerners to understand is that meditation is not about making anything happen ".

Dom John Main.


What do you think ?

Depends entirely on how you look at it. You could say that is 100% true and 100% false, and both would be correct! Depending on how you look at it, IMO. You could say it's not about making something happen and you could say that, if it's done correctly, things happen, even if that happening is the stopping of other things happening and you are making that happen just by doing meditation.

Cinorjer

LOL! Meditation is...

Meditation is.

Citta

karmablues said:

Why just westerners in particular? I'd say it would be just as difficult for many Thais to be able to see it from that perspective.

I would guess karmablues that the 'westerners' reference is because that was the majority of of his audience. Dom John Main was a Christian Monk and an Englishman.

Citta

fivebells said:

I think plenty of meditation is about making things not happen, and skillful happenings are often a way to do that. For instance, the Dzogchen hidden teaching on the precepts is a set of perceptions or fabrications or both. If those are brought to mind during meditation, that is a happening, and that's OK as long as it leads to a good result.

If they are ' brought to mind', then from a Dzogchen pov we are not 'refraining from the intoxication of duality '

fivebells

What does Right Effort look like in this framework?

Citta

It is necessary to understand a modality by its own lights.
Sutrayana operates by Right Effort and the rest of the 8fp.

Dzogchen by contrast depends on the natural mind being 'pointed out' ( to use the accepted form of words) and maintained. There are no techniques that enable us to stay in the natural state..that is entirely to do with the relationship to the teacher.
In a famous exchange a monk from another school asked Chogyal Namkhai Norbu what the sadhanas (practices ) are in Dzogchen...ChNN replied 'there are none' The monk said 'What.. you dont meditate ? '
ChNN replied 'when am I ever distracted ? '

Jeffrey

Right effort in this context is choosing a heart wish and setting up strong intentions to awaken. Intentions are karma. With flimsy intentions the mandala of awakening is also weak. But note that right effort has to do with clarifying intentions. I'm not sure how that relates to the sutric teachings. I think it has more to do with karma and awareness rather than a laundry list of antidotes.

Invincible_summer

Maybe not about making things happen, but perhaps letting things happen and observing those things.

Citta

Invincible_summer said:

Maybe not about making things happen, but perhaps letting things happen and observing those things.

Yes. ' making ' is the key here.

DotC

I've recently heard an awesome dharma talk by Ajahn Brahm on youtube about this:


and he did quote the 'not making something happen' side of meditation. Having some time to do nothing, be nothing, while meditating.

person

There is more than one style of meditation. In a graduated approach to the path certain qualities and insights are developed through an analytical meditation so that one can reach a point where all these things can be let go of. Part of the thinking is that it is often too big a leap to jump straight to the end.

Of course different schools have different approaches.

Foruilive

Hi ! With so many types of Meditation, I suppose there is room for a "making it happen" .
Are not single point focus Meditation, and Deity Meditation initially making things happen so as to....humbly yours.

Citta

To take Deity practice first @Forulive..willing it is in fact an effective way to prevent it...it is, like swimming or learning to ride a bike, about the balance between intention and letting it happen...However it is not kosher to go into detail about the Vajrayana practice concerning that on a public forum. Not because of some sense of woo-woo 'mystery ' but because it needs a bone fide teacher who is in the same physical room.
Making the mind one pointed requires some initial effort. Sustaining it in a relaxed way ?
We are back to the riding a bike metaphor.
If every time we rode a bike we had to run through a series of conscious acts and act with great intention...we would fall off...
:hair:
Its about relaxed awareness. Its takes practice. It also, even for experienced meditators, can ebb and flow.

_/\_

David

That's just it though... Because we say it takes practice, it makes it seem as if there is something to accomplish besides the methods themselves.

The desired result is not worrying about results.

The seeming paradoxical nature of the dharma makes me smile.

Linc

As we study the scientific link between meditation and positive effects, I think the tendency for westerners to view meditation as simply a means to an end (better concentration, more happiness, less anxiety, etc) is ever-increasing.

On the other hand... whatever motivates us to get started. Hopefully it leads us to something more.

Citta

Well yes. Just because its not about making stuff happen doesn't mean that stuff isn't supposed to happen.

zenmyste

Its all personal preference; i do think meditation is about making something happen.. It makes me relaxed and calm and melts my stresses away! I do it for a reason and that works for me..

wrathfuldeity

How to make nothing happen...by empting out everything...i.e., letting go...thus creating a vacuum or space for nothing to enter. Letting go of the ego...letting go of the boundries...letting go the self...then everything happens...including nothing.

David

Nothing happening is one paradox I can't get my head around.

I would be more inclined to believe in an unenlightened godhead before I would believe in nothing. Even the number 0 had to be invented because there is no such quantity in reality.

If nothing is happening then we are misusing the word... Even before there was anything, there must have been the potential growing for everything.

Even if that potential doesn't take up space, it isn't nothing because it grows to manifest when and if the conditions allow.

Oh, I'm sorry for going off topic, I'm trying to cut down on my morning caffeine intake. I'll turn around now.

To me, the trick is to stay in a constant state of meditation so traditional sitting meditation to me is training the mind for life.

So the reason some of us have a hard time understanding that there is no real goal is that for some, there is. Not only a better sense of awareness but a better awareness of sense.

It may take a while to notice any effects of meditation but they seem to be there.

@Invincible_summer hit the nail on the head I think. It's about acceptance over control.

Citta

Things happen. Things constantly arise. We are not urged to be passive. The OP was specific to meditation practice . it is suggesting that meditation practice is not the time and place for forcing one's will on the natural flow of that which is constantly arising. The purpose of meditation is to achieve one pointedness of mind. This is best achieved by choiceless awareness.
Having achieved a degree of one pointedness we are the able to act with a greatly enhanced degree of efficacy. We do not simply drift into a passive mode.

Citta

Citta said:

" One of the most difficult things for westerners to understand is that meditation is not about making anything happen ".

Dom John Main.


What do you think ?

It is sometimes useful to remind ourselves of an O.P.
Dom John is not describing a life strategy. Is he not making an ontological statement about the nature of things. He is making an observation about what occurs between setting the timer and it ringing. He is saying that our job at that time ( and eventually at all times ) is to be aware of what arises, without wilful manipulation or evasion. The light of awareness does its own work when we get out of the way.

David

@Citta, how is that not like a life strategy?

I ask because you said "and eventually at all times" and if that isn't a life strategy, I don't think I know what one is.

Just sayin...

David

Acceptance doesn't mean no work. It just means working with what we have instead of against it.

Citta

ourself said:

@Citta, how is that not like a life strategy?

I ask because you said "and eventually at all times" and if that isn't a life strategy, I don't think I know what one is.

Just sayin...

Perhaps we are understanding the words differently..but it seems to me to say that we should be present in awareness to all that arises without manipulation, is very different to saying ' I will have a strategy by which to bend my life to how I think it should be '. What Dom John is suggesting is a non -strategy strategy for meditation practice.
But this is clearer in the context of the book from which it is lifted.
Which is why I said during the gap that occurred between the OP being posted and the thread being revived that I would post no more discussions.
What I will do instead is simply recommend sources where ideas can be explored in full.

Citta

ourself said:

Acceptance doesn't mean no work. It just means working with what we have instead of against it.

I would modify that to say 'working with what is ' instead of what isn't.

genkaku

" One of the most difficult things for westerners to understand is that meditation is not about making anything happen ".
Dom John Main.

What do you think ?

A small thought before reading this post today:

However daunting the effort,
Surrendering stuff is
Only half the trip.

Surrender too must slip away
If there is to be any hope
Of walking among friends
Who were never lost.

David

Citta said:

ourself said:

@Citta, how is that not like a life strategy?

I ask because you said "and eventually at all times" and if that isn't a life strategy, I don't think I know what one is.

Just sayin...

Perhaps we are understanding the words differently..but it seems to me to say that we should be present in awareness to all that arises without manipulation, is very different to saying ' I will have a strategy by which to bend my life to how I think it should be '. What Dom John is suggesting is a non -strategy strategy for meditation practice.
But this is clearer in the context of the book from which it is lifted.
Which is why I said during the gap that occurred between the OP being posted and the thread being revived that I would post no more discussions.
What I will do instead is simply recommend sources where ideas can be explored in full.

We must be because I don't recall anyone saying the trick is to bend life into anything.

Things are how they are and will most certainly change.

There is no surrendering to the flow because the flow is all there is.

David

Citta said:

ourself said:

Acceptance doesn't mean no work. It just means working with what we have instead of against it.

I would modify that to say 'working with what is ' instead of what isn't.

Why would you do that?

Who is working with that which isn't?

Citta

Well thats ok then isn't it .