offering bowls

SillyPutty

Does anyone know of a reputable site that sells some decent Tibetan offering bowls (set of 8, preferably)? I've looked on amazon and dharmacrafts and so forth, but I cannot find a set of 8. Besides, I'm not too sold on the quality of most of them anyhoo.

Thanks in advance.

karasti

Any time I have seen sets, they have always been sets of 7, not 8. For a long time I assumed this was because most people use something else to catch incense ashes, but then I read somewhere that the one that is missing is the one representing music, because music is in everything all around us. Don't know if that is true or not.

This site sells a set of 7: http://www.handsoftibet.com/
And so does this one: http://www.potalagate.com/Qstore/Qstore.cgi?CMD=009&DEPT=1247602116&BACK=

They appear, to me, to be a bit better quality than what amazon would sell. If you do a search for a set of 7, you will have a lot more luck than looking for a set of 8

SillyPutty

Thanks, @karasti. The missing music bowl makes a lot of sense-- I was wondering why I could only find sets of 7. I'll take a look at those links now. :thumbsup:

Chaz

karasti said:

Any time I have seen sets, they have always been sets of 7, not 8. For a long time I assumed this was because most people use something else to catch incense ashes, but then I read somewhere that the one that is missing is the one representing music, because music is in everything all around us. Don't know if that is true or not.

This site sells a set of 7: http://www.handsoftibet.com/
And so does this one: http://www.potalagate.com/Qstore/Qstore.cgi?CMD=009&DEPT=1247602116&BACK=

They appear, to me, to be a bit better quality than what amazon would sell. If you do a search for a set of 7, you will have a lot more luck than looking for a set of 8

That's [pretty much how it is I think.

I've seen people no use a bowl for the light/candle offering and put the music offering in a bowl.

I put all 8 offerings in bowls, but I don't use traditional metal bowls. I use these clear, glass bowls that are supposed to be used as candle holders. I get them at IKEA.

http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/20114171/

BTW, IKEA has GREAT tea lights.

SillyPutty

Ahhh... IKEA. That place is my worst nightmare. I remember going in there once and worrying that I would never find the exit. Thanks for the suggestion. I actually fell in love with these bowls on one of the sites that @karasti listed and already placed my order:

http://www.handsoftibet.com/product/hand-carved-copper-water-offering-bowl-seven-bowl-set/

I also bought this singing bowl:

http://www.handsoftibet.com/product/hand-hammered-tibetan-chakra-singing-bowl-5-5-inches/

I just love anything hand-made and kind of "imperfect" looking. I guess that's why I've always treasured anything from little kids (i.e. drawings and the sort). There's just a very special energy and such character when something comes from an artist's hands rather than an assembly line of machines.

Chaz

Those are nice but I'd offer this caution. Adding something you "like" to your shrine, might just be an expression of self. Think of what they represent and not how much you like them.

With the gong, it's the sound that's important, not what it looks like.

OH, and don't forget ..... never, ever offer and empty bowl. When not filled, leave them upside down on the shrine. Wipe them down with a cloth when you clean but only do a detailed cleaning on the lunar new year - that from an anal-retentive shrine keeper ;-)

SillyPutty

Good point, @chaz. Thanks! If I could have afforded silver or gold (not my first choice but have read that is good to do) I would have gotten them instead actually... but I just cannot afford that right now. Personally I would have preferred glass as that's more my style as well. The only mid-way material I could afford right now was copper. As for the bowl... I'm taking a gamble on that. Lol... Don't know the sound it makes but I have a gut feeling it was the one for me to get.

lamaramadingdong

My feeling is that any offerings made should be made to someone who could use it. Food shelf, soup kitchen, homeless shelter, etc.
But that's just me.

SillyPutty

lamaramadingdong said:

My feeling is that any offerings made should be made to someone who could use it. Food shelf, soup kitchen, homeless shelter, etc.
But that's just me.

Never thought of it that way. It makes a lot of sense.

Jainarayan

I read somewhere that if you don't have a larger enough altar for 7 bowls (someone suggested small metal or glass condiment cups) 3 is a good number to use. Yes, no?

Chaz

Jainarayan said:

I read somewhere that if you don't have a larger enough altar for 7 bowls (someone suggested small metal or glass condiment cups) 3 is a good number to use. Yes, no?

Yes, 3 is a good number.

Also I don't think it's absolutely necessary to have bowls in a straight line. I have 8 bowls arranged in a 2 x 4 pattern because of space limits kinda like this:

oooo
oooo

Chaz

lamaramadingdong said:

My feeling is that any offerings made should be made to someone who could use it. Food shelf, soup kitchen, homeless shelter, etc.
But that's just me.

We're talking about two different kinds of offering. What you describe would be what's called "dana" or generosity - a good thing and meritorious activity - but not the same as offerings on a shrine.

robot

What is the significance of the shrine offerings?
I have seen offerings at shrines many times in SE Asia. I took it to be of rather a superstitious nature. Of the order of sacrificing a sheep to win the favour of the gods.
Clearly there is something I am overlooking here when western converts to Buddhism consider it to be an important aspect of practice.

person

There's a story that kind of summarizes the idea behind shrine offerings.

In a past life of the Great Dharma Patron, King Ashoka, he was just a small boy playing in the sand with other children. Pretending to be a king with the other children as his ministers, they built a sand castle which included a treasury. At this time, Buddha Shakyamuni passed the children playing in the sand on his alms round. Upon seeing the Buddha, the small child was very inspired. Immediately he bent over the sand castle and picked up the imaginary treasury room of the castle in his hands. He quickly walked over to the Buddha to place these imaginary riches within his begging bowl. At first Ananda moved to stop the boy, thinking with a loving heart that this sand would ruin the food within the Buddha's begging bowl. Yet the Buddha stopped Ananda from preventing this offering. The Buddha was so tall, so one of this disciples bent down in front of him and requested the small boy to stand on top of his back. Doing so, the boy joyfully placed the imaginary treasury within the Buddha's begging bowl. Following this event, Ananda asked the Buddha why he had allowed the boy to put sand in his begging bowl. Smiling, the Buddha said that two hundred years after his mahaparinirvana a universal king (Skt. Chakravartin) would arise in India, and that he would perform extensive activities in support of establishing and spreading the Buddhadharma throughout the region. The Buddha said that his name would be King Ashoka, and that this very boy would become that king due to the incredibly vast merits he developed by offering the Buddha a handful of sand with a genuinely loving heart.

The idea is that simple offerings made to Buddhas and Bodhisattvas generate powerful karma. So even though the physical act is small and irrelevant the mental aspect is large and important. From a mental aspect this either creates karma that can carry over into another life (if that's your cup of tea), or at the very least it can be helpful in creating an attitude of respect and devotion towards Buddha in this life.

robot

person said:

There's a story that kind of summarizes the idea behind shrine offerings.

In a past life of the Great Dharma Patron, King Ashoka, he was just a small boy playing in the sand with other children. Pretending to be a king with the other children as his ministers, they built a sand castle which included a treasury. At this time, Buddha Shakyamuni passed the children playing in the sand on his alms round. Upon seeing the Buddha, the small child was very inspired. Immediately he bent over the sand castle and picked up the imaginary treasury room of the castle in his hands. He quickly walked over to the Buddha to place these imaginary riches within his begging bowl. At first Ananda moved to stop the boy, thinking with a loving heart that this sand would ruin the food within the Buddha's begging bowl. Yet the Buddha stopped Ananda from preventing this offering. The Buddha was so tall, so one of this disciples bent down in front of him and requested the small boy to stand on top of his back. Doing so, the boy joyfully placed the imaginary treasury within the Buddha's begging bowl. Following this event, Ananda asked the Buddha why he had allowed the boy to put sand in his begging bowl. Smiling, the Buddha said that two hundred years after his mahaparinirvana a universal king (Skt. Chakravartin) would arise in India, and that he would perform extensive activities in support of establishing and spreading the Buddhadharma throughout the region. The Buddha said that his name would be King Ashoka, and that this very boy would become that king due to the incredibly vast merits he developed by offering the Buddha a handful of sand with a genuinely loving heart.

The idea is that simple offerings made to Buddhas and Bodhisattvas generate powerful karma. So even though the physical act is small and irrelevant the mental aspect is large and important. From a mental aspect this either creates karma that can carry over into another life (if that's your cup of tea), or at the very least it can be helpful in creating an attitude of respect and devotion towards Buddha in this life.

Thanks for that. I can see the benefit of creating the attitude of respect and devotion.
The type and placement of the items seems of little importance other than for personal pleasure to look at.

Chaz

robot said:

I can see the benefit of creating the attitude of respect and devotion.
The type and placement of the items seems of little importance other than for personal pleasure to look at.

Quite a bit more than that, actually.

robot

Chaz said:

robot said:

I can see the benefit of creating the attitude of respect and devotion.
The type and placement of the items seems of little importance other than for personal pleasure to look at.

Quite a bit more than that, actually.

Maybe you could explain it briefly for those of us that don't know.
Thanks.

SillyPutty

Off Topic: My first "online handle/email" address used a form of the name "Ananda" (I added a "J" to it though after much thought for whatever reason). I always thought it was a cool sounding name and thought it was something I had made up, not having heard of it before. The only time I've seen/heard the name was when I started to learn about Buddhism. Weird.

Carry on...

Chaz

robot said:

Chaz said:

Quite a bit more than that, actually.

Maybe you could explain it briefly for those of us that don't know.
Thanks.

Sure, but first, why do you offer comment about something you admittedly don't know? Questioning is good, but comment, in this case, only highlights a lack of understanding.

The intended purpose of such offering is not to satisfy some "personal pleasure". It's explain pretty clearly in the PDF I linked to earlier. They are there, in part, to give the practitioner reminders about enlightened being... OUR enlightened being .... and the homage we owe to it and the practice it deserves.

Our pleasure is irrelevant.

It's not superstitious. Superstition is a belief in supernatural causation. There's nothing supernatural at work here. Our enlightened being is completely natural.

robot

Chaz said:

robot said:

Chaz said:

Quite a bit more than that, actually.

Maybe you could explain it briefly for those of us that don't know.
Thanks.

Sure, but first, why do you offer comment about something you admittedly don't know? Questioning is good, but comment, in this case, only highlights a lack of understanding.

The intended purpose of such offering is not to satisfy some "personal pleasure". It's explain pretty clearly in the PDF I linked to earlier. They are there, in part, to give the practitioner reminders about enlightened being... OUR enlightened being .... and the homage we owe to it and the practice it deserves.

Our pleasure is irrelevant.

It's not superstitious. Superstition is a belief in supernatural causation. There's nothing supernatural at work here. Our enlightened being is completely natural.

Thank you. That is a fair criticism of my comment.
You have explained the reason for the shrine but not really the reason why the position of the bowls is important.
In SE Asia I saw shrines and alters decorated in all different manners. With anything from food items and money to cigarettes or jewellery. Sometimes a shrine can be very haphazard or even disorganized and dirty.
In the picture I posted you can see that there are offerings made to an ancient alter where the Buddha image has been removed or destroyed maybe hundreds of years ago.
What are these people paying homage to? They have been Buddhist since birth so it seems unlikely that they will need to be reminded about their faith by visiting this site, in particular.
I think it is out of respect and maybe fear that failing to acknowledge the Buddha, even if there is no image present will bring bad luck or karma.
There is a risk that worshiping images can increase ignorance in some cases. That's my opinion.
I doubt if this is what happens for most serious western Buddhists due to the abundance of teachers and material available.

Chaz

robot said:

Thank you. That is a fair criticism of my comment.
You have explained the reason for the shrine but not really the reason why the position of the bowls is important.

No I haven't because as I alluded to before, I'm not convinced that the order is important. There are those who will find a certain ordering of the shrine and it's accouterments to be personally significant but I don't think there's a hard and fast rule.

In SE Asia I saw shrines

That's nice, but the OP refers to shrines that would be Tibetan in character. What you say you saw in SE Asia is irrelevant if not off-topic.

Sometimes a shrine can be very haphazard or even disorganized and dirty.

True, but again, this is about offering bowls, not how different people in deoifferent places tend, or don't tend their shrines.

In the picture I posted you can see that there are offerings made to an ancient alter where the Buddha image has been removed or destroyed maybe hundreds of years ago.

It may not be Buddhist at all. Can't tell from the photo.

What are these people paying homage to? They have been Buddhist since birth so it seems unlikely that they will need to be reminded about their faith by visiting this site, in particular.

Maybe you should have asked and found out rather that draw conclusions based solely on assumptions that don't seem to have anything more than your personal perceptions for support.

There is a risk that worshiping images can increase ignorance in some cases. That's my opinion.

Perhaps, but it is just your opinion. "Worshiping" your opinion is just as likely to increase ignorance. You're also assuming they are "worshiping" something.

I doubt if this is what happens for most serious western Buddhists due to the abundance of teachers and material available.

Now you're being ethnocentric not to mention a bit naive.

robot

Chaz said:

robot said:

Thank you. That is a fair criticism of my comment.
You have explained the reason for the shrine but not really the reason why the position of the bowls is important.

No I haven't because as I alluded to before, I'm not convinced that the order is important. There are those who will find a certain ordering of the shrine and it's accouterments to be personally significant but I don't think there's a hard and fast rule.

In SE Asia I saw shrines

That's nice, but the OP refers to shrines that would be Tibetan in character. What you say you saw in SE Asia is irrelevant if not off-topic.

Sometimes a shrine can be very haphazard or even disorganized and dirty.

True, but again, this is about offering bowls, not how different people in deoifferent places tend, or don't tend their shrines.

In the picture I posted you can see that there are offerings made to an ancient alter where the Buddha image has been removed or destroyed maybe hundreds of years ago.

It may not be Buddhist at all. Can't tell from the photo.

What are these people paying homage to? They have been Buddhist since birth so it seems unlikely that they will need to be reminded about their faith by visiting this site, in particular.

Maybe you should have asked and found out rather that draw conclusions based solely on assumptions that don't seem to have anything more than your personal perceptions for support.

There is a risk that worshiping images can increase ignorance in some cases. That's my opinion.

Perhaps, but it is just your opinion. "Worshiping" your opinion is just as likely to increase ignorance. You're also assuming they are "worshiping" something.

I doubt if this is what happens for most serious western Buddhists due to the abundance of teachers and material available.

Now you're being ethnocentric not to mention a bit naive.

Wow! You sure told me! Thanks. I'm no better informed, however, for all your effort.
This post seems to point to some type of layout that is appropriate for your shrine.
Why is 3 a good number? Is it better than 2 or 4?

Chaz said:

Jainarayan said:

I read somewhere that if you don't have a larger enough altar for 7 bowls (someone suggested small metal or glass condiment cups) 3 is a good number to use. Yes, no?

Yes, 3 is a good number.

Also I don't think it's absolutely necessary to have bowls in a straight line. I have 8 bowls arranged in a 2 x 4 pattern because of space limits kinda like this:

oooo
oooo

Chaz

robot said:

Wow! You sure told me!

I'll say. I totally pwned you!

Thanks. I'm no better informed, however, for all your effort.

You can lead a horse to water ........

This post seems to point to some type of layout that is appropriate for your shrine.
Why is 3 a good number? Is it better than 2 or 4?

Well there are things you can include, sure, but there's no specific layout you have to use.

3's a good number because it can remind you of a lot of things - it's a number that is used a lot - three gems of refuge, three kayas, three yanas, three times .........

Three isn't "better" and 2 or 4. 2 or 4 isn't "better" than 3.

I've seen home shrines that were very simple. As I recall one, the shrine had a statue of the Buddha, one candle, a bowl for incense, a flower, a bowl of water and a picture of the guru. It was arranged asymmetrically on a TV tray. The local Shambhala center used to have the shrine in the main shrine room made out of an old cardboard appliance box.

robot

Chaz said:

robot said:

Wow! You sure told me!

I'll say. I totally pwned you!

Thanks. I'm no better informed, however, for all your effort.

You can lead a horse to water ........

This post seems to point to some type of layout that is appropriate for your shrine.
Why is 3 a good number? Is it better than 2 or 4?

Well there are things you can include, sure, but there's no specific layout you have to use.

3's a good number because it can remind you of a lot of things - it's a number that is used a lot - three gems of refuge, three kayas, three yanas, three times .........

Three isn't "better" and 2 or 4. 2 or 4 isn't "better" than 3.

I've seen home shrines that were very simple. As I recall one, the shrine had a statue of the Buddha, one candle, a bowl for incense, a flower, a bowl of water and a picture of the guru. It was arranged asymmetrically on a TV tray. The local Shambhala center used to have the shrine in the main shrine room made out of an old cardboard appliance box.

Pwned for sure.
I was starting think that you were a little too attached to your shrine on account of your testy response.
Yes I have a small wooden Buddha and a singing bowl that my daughter gave me in my trailer. I consider my trailer to be a sanctuary of sorts because it is when I have the chance to spend some time there that I can practice meditation with some regularity. It's pretty isolated and I spend all my time there alone. That's reminder enough.
I agree that three is a good number now that you have explained it.

Jainarayan

Chaz said:

I use these clear, glass bowls that are supposed to be used as candle holders. I get them at IKEA.

http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/20114171/

BTW, IKEA has GREAT tea lights.

I have small tea light holders like those also, but rounded sides. Thanks for the link and the idea. I've never been able to find any more of the ones I already have, so the link is handy.

Jainarayan

Chaz said:

Jainarayan said:

I read somewhere that if you don't have a larger enough altar for 7 bowls (someone suggested small metal or glass condiment cups) 3 is a good number to use. Yes, no?

Yes, 3 is a good number.

Also I don't think it's absolutely necessary to have bowls in a straight line. I have 8 bowls arranged in a 2 x 4 pattern because of space limits kinda like this:

oooo
oooo

Thanks. I thought about the straight line thing too. I didn't see why you couldn't have another arrangement, especially if the bowls or cups are the size of Chinese tea cups (I love those ).

I have my shrine as a combination Hindu and Buddhist, that is, I have statues and images of Hindu and Buddhist deities, buddhas and bodhisattvas on one altar. I think of them as different manifestations of One. Anyway, I use a kalash to offer water, but I think in addition to that I will use the small cups, the little glass bowls I have, or I can use larger flaired votive glasses. So many ways to show devotion: "If one offers me with love and devotion a leaf, flower, fruit or water, I will accept it". I think we can guess who said that.

Chaz

robot said:

What is the significance of the shrine offerings?

here's a piece on the 8 offerings from the OP:
http://mahajana.net/texts/kopia_lokalna/8_offerings.pdf

I have seen offerings at shrines many times in SE Asia. I took it to be of rather a superstitious nature. Of the order of sacrificing a sheep to win the favour of the gods.
Clearly there is something I am overlooking here

Clearly.

There's much more to this than what is meeting your eye and your mind. Much more.