Opinions on Entheogens

AlexIsAwesome

Support or against?
I know of some Buddhists, even monks who have tried substances to alter their minds and tap into higher states of consciousness. There are many however that believe using substances will get you anywhere except to an untouched state of mind.
I myself believe certain substances used for certain intentions in a responsible manner could be beneficial to your ascension. This may not be everyone's way though.

I'm *NOT* promoting the use of drugs or promoting that you do anything illegal or that I myself have done it either. I just want you opinions on the spiritual use of entheogens,
Yea or Nay?

(Edited by Moderator!. Pretty sure the poster meant to put 'NOT'!)

vinlyn

Nay. One of the most basic precepts.

If you can't do it with your own mind, don't bother.

AlexIsAwesome

vinlyn said:

Nay. One of the most basic precepts.

If you can't do it with your own mind, don't bother.

For argument sake let's say it wasn't one of our basic precepts. Would you ever try something for the experience it has on the mind?

vinlyn

AlexIsAwesome said:

vinlyn said:

Nay. One of the most basic precepts.

If you can't do it with your own mind, don't bother.

For argument sake let's say it wasn't one of our basic precepts. Would you ever try something for the experience it has on the mind?

I get along without it very well. One time I took a light whiff of a stimulant and got terribly sick and thought I might have a stroke. Lesson learned.

Nek777

What if its merely brain chemistry - certain practices bring about a specific reaction in the brain and the entheogen does the same thing? Then benefits of having experienced certain brain states can be had relatively easily. Also, the intention is not to get "high."

Of course, this is assuming that the entheogen has been studied, safe and legal.

However, in the end - I think all it would amount to is inspiration to explore the religious experience further. The true benefit of meditation is a result of the self discipline, will power, daily effort and mindfulness that causes actual changes in the brain - which is not the result of a single mystical or religious experience.

Here is a pretty interesting podcast on Secular Buddhist with a researcher from Johns Hopkins who is looking into the effects of psilocybin and long term meditators.

Davetheseeker

How can clouding your mind with any substance be of benefit in finding the true nature of the mind?

seeker242

Ajahn Chah writes in his book "A Still Forest Pool"

Real effort is a matter of the mind, not of the body. Different methods of concentration are like ways of earning a living-the most important thing is that you feed yourself, not how you manage to get the food. Actually, when the mind is freed from desires, concentration arises naturally, no matter what activity you are engaged in.

Drugs can bring about meaningful experiences, but the one who takes a drug has not made causes for such effects. He has just temporarily altered nature, like injecting a monkey with hormones that send him shooting up a tree to pick coconuts. Such experiences may be true but not good or good but not true, whereas Dharma is always both good and true.

Nay.

Zen Teacher Brad Warner is much less cordial! Although, he's never been known for his graciousness!

It is unambiguously clear that drugs and meditation cannot take you to the same place simply by the very nature of the experiences. They are not even in the same league of things. The comparison between the two is entirely spurious and unworthy of examination.

People who say these things about drugs and meditation may have tried drugs but most have never really attempted much meditation. Oh maybe they’ve gone to a handful of yoga classes and done shavasana. Or maybe they’ve been to a Vipassana retreat or even rented a cabin at Tassajara one summer. But they don’t have any real depth of experience with meditation to compare to their drug experiences.

If you want to get fried off your ass, at least have the decency to admit it. Don't try to convince us you're on some kind of grand spiritual quest.

Florian

Once one has arrived at some sort of spiritual view or practice then I'd say mind-altering drugs are best avoided. More to the point, almost everyone says it. But I would never have discovered Buddhism without weed, so am extremely grateful for having my mind altered.

Gui

It would seem kinda silly for me to intensify on the one hand what I let go on the other.

Chrysalid

Nay to the spiritual insight aspect, I think it's more likely to just give you false impressions, like basing your beliefs on your dreams.

Yay to trying it for the experience though, but I might wimp out when it came down to it, I've only done cannabis once and that gave me unpleasant auditory hallucinations.

Woah93

Mushrooms are amazing for mindfulness. They are being studied and are successful for treating alcoholism, nicotine addiction and the list goes on. I have experienced multiple "trips" and it made me a better person. It put me in my place. It showed me that I didn't know anything.

Ever wonder why people get bad trips? Especially psilocibin is known for utterly destroying your ego and identity in the most extreme sense. I have reached a place where I didn't know I was human, I didn't know my own name, everything was irrelevant. What happened was that I just existed. No thoughts, no past or future or any conditioning. I just was...

Then with 100% objectivity you see your identity get slowly rebuild over the course of the trip, just like the non-judging attitude with meditation a period follows where you are able to see things as they are, without judging or labeling anything.

There is something very special about this chemical and what it does to the mind, and I still feel that way 3 years after I experimented with them. All those realizations that came from that period in my life still stick today.

Disregarding the spiritual functionality of this substance is ridiculous. It's a tool that requires you to know how to use it and it won't give you a free special experience. It shows what's in your mind and it breaks down your identity and ego in the process. (which can be frightening compaired to meditating because it is forced).

vinlyn

That has nothing to do with Buddhism. Buddhism is about training your own mind, not using substance-shortcuts.

Dandelion

Nay, particularly in regards to attachment: addiction. Personally, there is enough in my life that I am attached to, I don't want to make my own particular buddhist path littered with more stumbling blocks.

Dandelion

Besides, isn't taking drugs to get to higher levels/planes a form of attachment in itself... that need to do so, I mean. Surely, a healthier (mentally, emotionally,, physically), approach would be to carry on practicing and accepting what is, living in the here and now without searching for a WOW, etc. That's not to say I wouldnt like to experience something quite profound in meditation, but I suppose to me it actually feels anti buddhist to try and make that come about through synthetic drugs. If it never happens I'm fine with it. I wouldn't trust a drug induced experience anyway.

federica

AlexIsAwesome said:

For argument sake let's say it wasn't one of our basic precepts. Would you ever try something for the experience it has on the mind?

I felt this way a long time before I even came to Buddhism, so, no, even without the precepts, I know it's a crap idea. I've seen the effects of mind-altering substances on people, and frankly, I'm not impressed, to be honest.

Woah93

Dandelion said:

Besides, isn't taking drugs to get to higher levels/planes a form of attachment in itself... that need to do so, I mean. Surely, a healthier (mentally, emotionally,, physically), approach would be to carry on practicing and accepting what is, living in the here and now without searching for a WOW, etc. That's not to say I wouldnt like to experience something quite profound in meditation, but I suppose to me it actually feels anti buddhist to try and make that come about through synthetic drugs. If it never happens I'm fine with it. I wouldn't trust a drug induced experience anyway.

Of course any emotional value or "knowledge" you gain while intoxicated isn't worth trust. I experimented with these things because I was interested in the way the mind works and having it altered can show you a lot about how perceptions are formed and tied together in your day to day life. It's like a fish not noticing he's in the water until he see's the surface rough with ripples and waves.

Several

Different strokes for different folks. I've seen the vast majority of drug users simply indulging or creating an addiction. That is useless. But I have also seen drugs crack the shell of habitual behaviour and open minds to wider possibilities of existence. The trick is to be mindful during the experience, almost fighting the effect of the chemical. The coup de gras is knowing when to stop imbibing and turn to meditation as a way to effect lasting change.

Woah93

Well there IS something special in psychedelics that you have to experience to know it.

This video says most of what I mean, I understand if you don't want to go there. I'm perfectly fine with other people's opinion's and I respect your views. I just have a problem with people expressing their own opinions based on something they have limited knowledge of. Especially about the psychedelic experience which can't be put to words or explained but only experienced, only then you can know what it is like and draw a conclusion. If you truly are mindful you understand this and question your own mind and perceptions about this IMO