Carnivore pets and their diets

karasti

I know we've talked about this topic here before and last year sometimes, someone had asked about the problem of being Buddhist and feeding meat (or tuna maybe) to their cat. I saw this article that was in regards to such things so I wanted to share it here, just so no one makes the same mistake with their pet.

We have a dog who eats meat (her diet is about 20% real food instead of just dog food) and a lizard that eats live crickets and worms. I do feel an amount of guilt with the live animals especially but it's what I accepted when we took on that pet. We probably will not get another when he is gone, but we can't hardly let him die from malnutrition.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/leader/west/kitten-nearly-dies-from-vegan-diet/story-fngnvmj7-1226682108386?utm_source=Herald+Sun&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=editorial&net_sub_uid=10147177

Jainarayan

Ooh, hot topic. There is a currently-dormant discussion on keeping carnivorous pets at another religious forums site. I got into it over "cats can live perfectly healthy as vegans" (no they cannot), especially about keeping the big cats in zoos. We've destroyed their habitats and gene pools to the point that cheetahs are seriously at risk for genetic defects. I think it behooves us to do all we can to rectify and preserve the species; it's not a matter of them being naturally selected for extinction. If preserving them includes breeding them in captivity (zoos do a heck of a lot more than just display animals) and feeding them other animals... hey, we started it!

adventuress

Hmm, thank you for the link @karasti

I have a cat myself, and honestly see it from the perspective of simply, I don't choose what she eats, she does. If she refused to eat something, I hardly force her. If she doesn't like a certain food, I get rid of it and try another till she enjoys one. It ultimately is her choice what she wants to eat...

To go on a further, but related tirade, I do feel guilty about 'owning,' a 'pet' cat. I feel somewhat selfish for keeping her when I'm not entirely sure if she had her druthers, whether or not she would choose to be here with me. Maybe I'm a bitt nutty,

karasti

@adventuress lol, I know what you mean. I have a weird sense of...something about "owning" pets as well. But they've been a part of my life since I was born and I find they add a lot to our lives and our kids lives, and in encourages them greatly in compassion and responsibility in caring for another being. But I feel strange in having pets that at one point were captured wild and now are pets. Not as much domestic cats and dogs, since that has been such a long time going. But we have ferrets, a bearded dragon, and a tortoise and sometimes I feel bad that they aren't just wild animals. I know all of them were bred in captivity, but still.

I can't imagine though thinking that because I made a choice in my diet being an omnivore, that clearly it should be the same diet an animal should follow. Like the article said, if you want a vegetarian animal, then get a vegetarian animal...not a carnivore. Geez.

adventuress

karasti said:

I can't imagine though thinking that because I made a choice in my diet being an omnivore, that clearly it should be the same diet an animal should follow. Like the article said, if you want a vegetarian animal, then get a vegetarian animal...not a carnivore. Geez.

Ha, agreed. I see that as supremely controlling to force that kind of vegan diet on a very CLEARLY carnivorous animal.

I feel the same way about what my pets, now and in the past, have contributed to my life. Much more than initial glance would divulge. Hence why I feel that I almost am unfair in the keeping of them because it truly very much benefits me. As to my kitty, I've asked her and she just lazily yowls at me and then walks to her food bowl, staring at me expectantly. Perhaps that's an answer in and of itself, lol.

MaryAnne

I don't have much of a problem with cats or dogs as pets since they were domesticated hundreds if not thousands of years ago. However, I do have a problem with people trying to feed them contrary to everything they would eat in the wild (as in meat).

My ethical issue comes up with owning parrots. I loooooove parrots, the bigger the better. I've had parrots as pets, myself - and I used to be involved with a parrot rescue, so had several as foster-pets while finding them good homes. Love them.

But parrots were only very recently targeted for domestication and the pet trade. Like mostly within the last 25 yrs or so. So there's no hundreds of years of domestication/history there with parrots as pets.

Since the early 90's the USA has banned importation of all parrots from anywhere outside the US, and there are strict laws and high fines for smuggling. So now, at this point, the pet trade for parrots is well established in our country, and completely legal. But is it ethical?

I don't have a parrot now, but boy do I miss having one! Not a day goes by that I don't think about getting one again. I remind myself that birds belong in the wild.... no matter how well it's fed, or how many toys a parrot has, or how massive the cage is, indoors or outside, it's still a cage and still an unnatural way for parrots to live.

BUT, every week I see certain parrot shops and breeders selling babies and I think... they are HERE already and they need homes. Good homes with people who know what to expect and what to give to make a parrot healthy and happy. Why shouldn't that person be me?? I struggle with this constantly.

So far, no parrots in my life since 1/2010..... :-(


Edited to add: I feed my dogs high quality dog food that includes real meat as the #1 ingredient. Either chicken, lamb, or fish. So these animals are being used to feed them, no doubt about it. I don't have a problem with that, just like I don't have a problem with people (choosing) to eat meat. It's natural, it's part of the food chain.

karasti

I know exactly what you mean, @MaryAnne. Not with parrots (which I love but I couldn't handle the noise and seed all over, lol) but reptiles. We have a lot of reptile experience between my husband and I, and every time we see them for sale or in petstores I know the majority of them will be bought by someone who doesn't know how to care for them, and most of them will die early deaths from lack of proper care. But we only have so much room, lol. And some lizards eat a hundred crickets a day. That's a lot of crickets to deal with. We have a cricket farm in our garage right now as a result. We take really good care of the crickets but yeah it still causes me issues to know we are caring for them to feed our other pet. As a result we probably won't get another lizard once he is gone.

Jainarayan

With the exception of my two dogs who were chosen (though I was against getting any pets), all the animals I've had were rescues. I had no intention of getting any pets. Evidently I had little say in the matter of having animals because I wound up taking in three ferrets, two of whom were old and discarded, and died of cancer shortly after I took them; one of the three ferrets was a youngster whom I inherited then re-homed; and my cat who was hours away from death as a 1 lb, 5 week old dehydrated kitten. I believe they were sent to me. As I cried over the two little ferrets the veterinarians told me they were where they were supposed to be to live out their little lives with love and care. Even if we select animals as pets, if we don't, we can't know where they would wind up. They are with us for reasons we can't know. It's either for our benefit or theirs. I have a magnetic sticker on my truck tailgate in the shape of a paw that says Who Rescued Who?. I'll only say I'm here because they are.

zombiegirl

I don't feel bad at all about feeding my cats meat... that's just the nature of carnivores, you know? I used to feed them mostly dry food and wet food only every other day, but one of my cats developed a UTI which was traumatic and terrifying (as it could have easily been crystals blocking his urinary tract, which is often fatal/a super expensive surgery). After that, my vet recommended I feed him more wet food to supply extra water into his diet to avoid a recurrence.

I do feel bad about supporting the meat industry in this way (since the poor treatment of animals is the reason I stopped eating meat myself). I did look into grinding my own pet food for some time, thinking I could make sure to buy cruelty-free/organic meats for them... but what can I say... it would be a whole lot of time and effort (not to mention expensive!) and I just didn't feel confident enough to undertake it. It's actually a lot more complicated than just "grinding up meat" as you have to get a certain level of bones and other nutrients in there to be healthy. Maybe someday though...

Chrysalid

I think if anyone tries to enforce their dietary beliefs onto another species, that's just unethical and irresponsible.

I've had a few pets in my life, the last was a leopard gecko but he died recently from what I think was renal failure caused by an antibiotic given to treat a cut on his foot. He was 15, which isn't young but isn't old either, but he was happy up until he died. I won't be getting another though, mainly because of the live food aspect, but I genuinely believe he was happier in captivity that he would have been in the wild (he was born in captivity too, just so you know, I don't agree with taking animals from the wild). Reptiles are simple animals so given enough food, water and shelter they're content, it's stress they don't like and the wild is full of stress.
Dogs and cats I have no problem with, they've co-evolved with us to an extent, especially dogs. I even read somewhere that puppies prefer human company to other dogs.

I don't think I'll be getting any more pets. There's a frog who's made his home in my garden (I call him Frogzilla) and I'm protective of him, scaring away the local cats and making places for him to hide. In return he eats some slugs. Is that anti-Buddhist, to encourage predation? I don't think so, it's just nature.

federica

If you own carnivore animals (cats, dogs) they thrive best on a raw food diet.

JoyfulGirl

I soooo want a siberian cat, I would feed it meat though. The way I see it I am born with a precious human life which is different than a precious cat life, i can practice dharma. The cat.. I dont know, maybe it could? But still is a cat who likes to hunt and needs meat.

seeker242

My friend have a vegan cat going on 6 years of that diet. It's perfectly healthy. Her vet agrees it's perfectly healthy also. Mostly because she actually know how to feed it, unlike most people. Feeding a cat potatoes and pasta??? Come on, that is just plain ignorance...That is not even close to how you feed a cat a vegan diet. These people obviously had absolutely no idea what they were doing! If you are not extremely educated on the subject, it's certainly not recommended.

A dog on the other hand is quite easy to feed a vegetarian diet and can easily be quite healthy on a vegetarian diet. The 6th oldest dog in the Guinness book of world records was a strict vegan. Lived to be almost 27 years old.

Jainarayan

seeker242 said:

My friend have a vegan cat going on 6 years of that diet. It's perfectly healthy. Her vet agrees it's perfectly healthy also.

Animals hide illness very well, and while 6 years old for a cat is young, there's no telling what cumulative effects a non-natural diet (sorry, but a vegetarian diet is not natural for an obligate carnivore) will have down the road. Veterinarians, like doctors for humans, make mistakes. I had an idiot veterinarian that told me my ferret and jenday conure would be perfectly fine out of cage at the same time because ferrets are "so far removed from the wild" (her words). Guess what? Only by lightning action by me and another person, each grabbing one of the animals was a tragedy averted. Animals do what they do, and animals eat what they eat based on their evolution. We're trying to force a square peg into a round hole, to suit our wants and beliefs. I can't know what he would say, but my guess is that the Buddha would find this against nature also.

federica

Jainarayan said:

Animals do what they do, and animals eat what they eat based on their evolution. We're trying to force a square peg into a round hole, to suit our wants and beliefs. I can't know what he would say, but my guess is that the Buddha would find this against nature also.

You're so right; this is why cats chase, kill and decimate the wild bird and small mammal populations. because they're inherently hunters.
They do that.
No matter how well, or how frequently fed they are.
Unless you now tell us this is a precious, prize pedigree cat that never leaves the confines of the house, @seeker242, I would be willing to bet a pound to a pinch of paprika that this 'vegan' cat hunts just like the rest of 'em - and eats its spoils.

Many dog owners I have encountered bemoan or complain that their dog 'steals' food.
I explain "Sure they do! It's in their nature! Dogs are opportunists, and unless they have full, complete unequivocal trust in you as a pack leader, they're always going to give themselves the benefit of the doubt - and steal food!"

Only two types of dog don't steal food (in my experience):
Raw-fed dogs, and those who have abandoned all Pack leader tendencies in favour of their owners.

Incidentally, it really, honestly does a cat/dog no harm at all, whatsoever, to NOT be fed for a day, once in a while. Water? Yes, always.
Food?
Now and then, a day without is very good for them.

Shigo

Jainarayan said:

seeker242 said:

My friend have a vegan cat going on 6 years of that diet. It's perfectly healthy. Her vet agrees it's perfectly healthy also.

Animals hide illness very well, and while 6 years old for a cat is young, there's no telling what cumulative effects a non-natural diet (sorry, but a vegetarian diet is not natural for an obligate carnivore) will have down the road. Veterinarians, like doctors for humans, make mistakes. I had an idiot veterinarian that told me my ferret and jenday conure would be perfectly fine out of cage at the same time because ferrets are "so far removed from the wild" (her words). Guess what? Only by lightning action by me and another person, each grabbing one of the animals was a tragedy averted. Animals do what they do, and animals eat what they eat based on their evolution. We're trying to force a square peg into a round hole, to suit our wants and beliefs. I can't know what he would say, but my guess is that the Buddha would find this against nature also.

Perfectly said.
unfortunately we live in a society that is taking "health" to an extremely delusional level.

seeker242

federica said:

Unless you now tell us this is a precious, prize pedigree cat that never leaves the confines of the house, @seeker242, I would be willing to bet a pound to a pinch of paprika that this 'vegan' cat hunts just like the rest of 'em - and eats its spoils.

Definitely does not leave the house as letting an animal roam around outside, killing indiscriminately, is considered unethical! It's not fair to the birds or the little lizards we have here in Florida. I personally feel that ALL house cats should be completely indoor animals. But, some people say it's cruel to keep a cat indoors because it's a natural hunter and wants to roam and hunt, etc. It's more cruel to let it just kill random things outside IMO. The idea that cats should be allowed to go outside, if you really think about it, is a pretty selfish idea. What about the other animals? I guess they are not as important as the cat!

Not to mention the fact that it's much more dangerous for the cat. How many dead cats do people see on the side of the road? Too many! IMO!

seeker242

Jainarayan said:

seeker242 said:

My friend have a vegan cat going on 6 years of that diet. It's perfectly healthy. Her vet agrees it's perfectly healthy also.

Animals hide illness very well, and while 6 years old for a cat is young, there's no telling what cumulative effects a non-natural diet (sorry, but a vegetarian diet is not natural for an obligate carnivore) will have down the road.

Not this one. It has feline leukemia from birth. It was always sick with something until it was fed a vegan diet. Then all that has gone away and the leukemia is in remission. 6 years old for a cat born with FLV is quite old actually. Something like double it's life expectancy or something like that. The cat would already be dead if it were not for it's vegan diet. As for the natural bit, of course it's not natural. But, driving a car isn't natural either. Flying in a metal tube in the sky is not natural! Just because it's not natural, does not mean it's bad. It's really not reasonable to think that something is good or bad just because it's natural or unnatural.

:om:

Jainarayan

seeker242 said:

The cat would already be dead if it were not for it's vegan diet.

You cannot know that. There are thousands of FIV+ cats and cats with leukemia and other diseases who are alive and in remission on their regular carnivorous diets.

But, driving a car isn't natural either. Flying in a metal tube in the sky is not natural! Just because it's not natural, does not mean it's bad. It's really not reasonable to think that something is good or bad just because it's natural or unnatural.

:om:

Those are choices we make, not made for us, nor do they prevent us from doing what is natural for us... walking and running. A cat fed a vegan diet has no such choice. I'm sorry... that's human hubris.

And synthesized taurine is no substitute for the real thing, just as synthetic thyroid hormones and insulin are no substitute for the real thing. Unfortunately with those we have no choice. Without a natural source of taurine (which does not include kelp as a source), a cat will go blind.

It further points out human hubris to keep an obligate carnivore as a pet and turn it into a vegan to satisfy some human psychological need, and bend it to the human's ethics. You can't have your cake and eat it too. I am totally unyielding on this.

seeker242

Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association
July 1, 2006, Vol. 229, No. 1, Pages 70-73
doi: 10.2460/javma.229.1.70

Evaluation of cats fed vegetarian diets and attitudes of their caregivers
Lorelei A. Wakefield, VMD; Frances S. Shofer, PhD; Kathryn E. Michel, DVM, DACVN
Department of Clinical Studies, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, PA 19104-6010. (Wakefield, Shofer, Michel)

"Results: All cats evaluated had serum cobalamin concentrations within reference range, and 14 of 17 had blood taurine concentrations within reference range."

If you can get access to the actual study, you see that the 3 cats that did not have blood taurine concentrations within reference range, were only very slightly outside the range. Certainly not enough to call the cat "unhealthy".

You can be as unyielding as you want. I would prefer to see more actual studies from actual scientists on actual vegetarian cats myself. Are there any other studies on vegetarian cats? The article posted in the OP is an extremely poor example, certainly not enough to base any scientifically sound conclusions on.

Jainarayan

Studies don't reflect nature. Not to mention that thousands of HIV+ humans show no signs of infection. I wonder if it's individual genetics. That "study" proves nothing.

Procedures—Participants were recruited through a Web site and from attendees of a national animal welfare conference. Caregivers of cats in both groups answered a telephone questionnaire regarding feeding practices for their cats. Blood was obtained from a subset of cats that had been fed vegetarian diets. Blood and plasma taurine and serum cobalamin concentrations were measured.

Results—People who fed vegetarian diets to their cats

Less than 100 cats out of what... 50 million in the US were tested. The participants were monitored 24/7 to ensure that they did indeed feed their cats vegetarian diets? Newsflash: people lie.

"Even the devil can quote scripture to his purpose." - Wm. Shakespeare, and it's not untrue. Reference ranges only reflect the results of the test subjects.

Jainarayan

Chrysalid said:

I think if anyone tries to enforce their dietary beliefs onto another species, that's just unethical and irresponsible.

Not to mention doing potential himsa to the animal, especially when the animal's nature is different than what the human wants it to be.

Jainarayan

seeker242 said:

...I would prefer to see more actual studies from actual scientists on actual vegetarian cats myself. Are there any other studies on vegetarian cats? The article posted in the OP is an extremely poor example, certainly not enough to base any scientifically sound conclusions on.

Which will happen when you can get tickets to Disney On Ice in hell because it's laughable and a waste of time and money. So until such time I think it's in the animal's best interest to treat it according to its nature.

seeker242

Ok, I just don't think "appeal to nature" is reasonable. Actually, by definition, it's not! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature

"Julian Baggini explains that "Even if we can agree that some things are natural and some are not, what follows from this? The answer is: nothing"

What is natural is irrelevant.

vinlyn

There's too much calling other people unethical lately.

federica

Maybe it's the summer heat, or maybe it's the full moon recently, but some people are getting rather argumentative and jumping on the "I'm not arguing with you, I'm just telling you where you're wrong" band-wagon.

Pack it in.

Talk nicely, or thread-closing is going to be more frequent.

Zayl

We humans can be Buddhists, and realize that eating meat is not exactly proper. But we can also go on with a meat-free diet and be just as healthy. Dogs and Cats are hardly Buddhist, and they cannot live long without meat, since that is what supports their physiology.

Deprive them of this, and it is you who is in the wrong, not the animal.

MaryAnne

I looked into the study about the cats on a veggie diet. The study only lasted one year. That alone is enough to negate its findings. ONE year? Really? What happens when these cats are on a strictly veggie diet for 4 years, or 8 yrs or 12 yrs? (If they last that long) That's where the proof lies...

seeker242

MaryAnne said:

I looked into the study about the cats on a veggie diet. The study only lasted one year. That alone is enough to negate its findings. ONE year? Really? What happens when these cats are on a strictly veggie diet for 4 years, or 8 yrs or 12 yrs? (If they last that long) That's where the proof lies...

I would personally love to see a 10 year study! All I can say is my friends cat has been vegan 5 years and it still perfectly fine with regards to nutrition according to the vet. Feeding a kitten potatoes and pasta, well that's just plain stupidity. The fact that there are no long term studies also means there is no proof that it's unhealthy if done properly. Because, that's where the proof lies... An ignorant person feeding a cat macaroni every day, isn't proof. "It's unnatural" isn't proof either.

Omar067

Carnivore will simply not be satisfied by vegetables.

Chrysalid

seeker242 said:

I would personally love to see a 10 year study! All I can say is my friends cat has been vegan 5 years and it still perfectly fine with regards to nutrition according to the vet.

I suppose that's possible. The veggies would have to be well cooked though, a cat's gut couldn't handle uncooked veg. A cat's gut is perfectly suited to digest protein, so in theory if you heavily processed high protein vegetables like beans, seeds and mushrooms you might be able to feed a cat on it.

Linc

I prefer getting my dog fish over chicken over mammals. That's about as far as I go on that train. If all they have at the store from a safe brand is lamb & rice that day, OK fine. I'm more concerned about where the food came from than which animal died for it.

seeker242

Chrysalid said:

seeker242 said:

I would personally love to see a 10 year study! All I can say is my friends cat has been vegan 5 years and it still perfectly fine with regards to nutrition according to the vet.

I suppose that's possible. The veggies would have to be well cooked though, a cat's gut couldn't handle uncooked veg. A cat's gut is perfectly suited to digest protein, so in theory if you heavily processed high protein vegetables like beans, seeds and mushrooms you might be able to feed a cat on it.

She doesn't feed them veggies. She feeds them commercially produced fortified vegan cat kibble.

MaryAnne

A commercially prepared (processed) "vegan" food source is even worse than real "table food" sources for vegan pet/cat diets. These foods are loaded with synthetic supplements, carbs and starches that lead to health issues later on.

Re; http://www.littlebigcat.com/nutrition/vegetarian-cats/

According to the site above and a few others, commercially processed "vegan" dry foods are intended to be fed along with an appropriate amount of raw or cooked meats, to provide a balanced diet. The pro side to this is to avoid animal fat and other animal byproducts that are used as fillers for regular commercial pet food.

I have not found one site yet (other than forums consisting of 'regular' people, not vets or animal specialists) that whole heartily promotes vegan or even vegetarian diets for carnivorous pets. Not one, so far. But I've found several that say it's not good....

zombiegirl

I think this has already been said, but I really don't understand why people would get a carnivorous pet if they don't want to feed them meat. Get a rabbit or something, seriously. There are many biological differences between carnivores and omnivores, the most important being our digestive system. Humans have the luxury of being able to choose our diet, carnivores do not.

I completely understand not wanting to support the meat industry at large(as I don't eat meat myself for that very reason), but there are more humane ways to get around this (look into cruelty-free companies). To look at nature and say that a carnivore eating to live is wrong or somehow unskillful is a gross misunderstanding of the ecosystem. In the wild, carnivores are needed for population control just as much as any herbivore is needed to spread seeds, everyone plays their own part. While it is possible that due to the domestication of our pets, someday they might evolve to be much more omnivorous, we are simply not there yet. I don't think we should impose our moral views on our animals.
I admit the cat with the medical condition might be a special case though. I have a friend with Crohn's disease who has had multiple surgeries and the removal of one of her intestines and although she would like to, she cannot eat a veg diet as her body simply no longer allows it. You have to eat for your body and sometimes illness changes that.

karasti

Did you see that the lady who authored that study, had fed her cat a vegan diet but changed him to a meat diet after he failed to thrive and had health issues on the vegan diet?

Citta

I think to buy a carnivore. Then keep it imprisoned in a house or apartment. And then feed it a diet which is entirely unnatural for its species is a kind of speciest fascism.
Its profoundly unkind, and utterly adharmic.

seeker242

MaryAnne said:

A commercially prepared (processed) "vegan" food source is even worse than real "table food" sources for vegan pet/cat diets. These foods are loaded with synthetic supplements, carbs and starches that lead to health issues later on.

Re; http://www.littlebigcat.com/nutrition/vegetarian-cats/

She does not feed them any of those brands. The one she uses does not say it's just a supplement or unbalanced. And as I said before, that food cured the cat of it's complications from feline leukemia and was recommended by the Vet.

I have not found one site yet (other than forums consisting of 'regular' people, not vets or animal specialists) that whole heartily promotes vegan or even vegetarian diets for carnivorous pets.

No, you generally don't find that as there aren't any long term studies on it. But of course, people who eat meat themselves have no problem feeding their animals meat. It's not even an issue when they eat their own dinner at burger king.

From the article you posted:

The truth is that science just doesn’t know enough about the cat’s nutritional needs to ensure the long-term safety of vegetarian and vegan diets for cats. While there are many anecdotal tales of cats thriving on vegetarian and vegan foods, it is a path that requires great commitment and a willingness to be flexible on the part of the guardian.

Completely agree! More real science is needed. People's opinions are worthless when it comes to the actual science. If you don't do any actual scientific studies, all you are going to have is opinions and anecdotes.

Citta

No science is needed at all. Feed cats meat and fish, just as millions of years of evolution as designed them to. Don't fly in the face of nature...problem solved.
If you can't feed them meat and fish..leave them be.

seeker242

I'm sorry, but like I said before, what is natural is irrelevant.

Citta

I rest my case.

seeker242

"Julian Baggini explains that "Even if we can agree that some things are natural and some are not, what follows from this? The answer is: nothing"

Jainarayan

seeker242 said:

I'm sorry, but like I said before, what is natural is irrelevant.

Breathing is irrelevent?

seeker242

Jainarayan said:

seeker242 said:

I'm sorry, but like I said before, what is natural is irrelevant.

Breathing is irrelevent?

With regards to a scientific analysis of nutritional components of a diet, yes!

Citta

But we are not talking about ' scientific analysis of nutrional components ' of a diet in isolation or in abstract.
We are talking about sentient beings which have evolved over millions of years to live in a particular way and to eat a diet consistent with their evolution, being kept from eating what they have evolved to eat by a decision made with no possibility of consent by members of another species.
It stinks.
Its deeply adharmic.
Its an act of sustained violence against another species no different to the feeding of meat to vegetarian animals..the cause of 'mad cow disease'.

MaryAnne

seeker242 said:

I'm sorry, but like I said before, what is natural is irrelevant.

Natural is irrelevant? Really, you mean that?
I'd like for you to explain that, please.

Because if natural is irrelevant, then Health is irrelevant...
so even the act of eating - fortifying and sustaining one's body and its functions to remain healthy - should be turned over to the control of non-natural guidance and religious or human-based morals?
OK, that's a human's choice...silly as I may think it is... it is a valid choice for humans. As a person, you and any of us, are free to choose to live as closely aligned with nature as possible, or not to; right down to what and how you eat.

But then we humans should implement these same rules and moral judgments onto animals, -- completely disregarding their natural, and evolutionary needs??

@seeker242, I'm shocked that you really believe what you've just said here....

seeker242

MaryAnne said:

seeker242 said:

I'm sorry, but like I said before, what is natural is irrelevant.

Natural is irrelevant? Really, you mean that?
I'd like for you to explain that, please.

It's a matter of using correct logic and valid reasoning. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature

"An appeal to nature is an argument or rhetorical tactic in which it is proposed that "a thing is good because it is 'natural', or bad because it is 'unnatural'"

This type of reasoning is inherently flawed and illogical. "It's natural" just isn't good enough, as it doesn't prove anything either way. No valid conclusion can be drawn from simply the statements "it's natural" or "it's unnatural".

Citta said:

But we are not talking about ' scientific analysis of nutrional components

That is what I'm talking about! I also disagree with the rest of what you said.

Citta

karasti said:

I know we've talked about this topic here before and last year sometimes, someone had asked about the problem of being Buddhist and feeding meat (or tuna maybe) to their cat. I saw this article that was in regards to such things so I wanted to share it here, just so no one makes the same mistake with their pet.

We have a dog who eats meat (her diet is about 20% real food instead of just dog food) and a lizard that eats live crickets and worms. I do feel an amount of guilt with the live animals especially but it's what I accepted when we took on that pet. We probably will not get another when he is gone, but we can't hardly let him die from malnutrition.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/leader/west/kitten-nearly-dies-from-vegan-diet/story-fngnvmj7-1226682108386?utm_source=Herald+Sun&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=editorial&net_sub_uid=10147177

This was the OP. Of course anyone is free to turn it into a stroll through the groves of abstract academe and to explore the nature of logic if that what interests them. But the OP is talking about the ethics of forcing animals to eat a diet other than the one they have evolved to eat.
Its an act of violence, pure and simple. Its a power play.

MaryAnne

Citta said:

karasti said:

I know we've talked about this topic here before and last year sometimes, someone had asked about the problem of being Buddhist and feeding meat (or tuna maybe) to their cat. I saw this article that was in regards to such things so I wanted to share it here, just so no one makes the same mistake with their pet.

We have a dog who eats meat (her diet is about 20% real food instead of just dog food) and a lizard that eats live crickets and worms. I do feel an amount of guilt with the live animals especially but it's what I accepted when we took on that pet. We probably will not get another when he is gone, but we can't hardly let him die from malnutrition.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/leader/west/kitten-nearly-dies-from-vegan-diet/story-fngnvmj7-1226682108386?utm_source=Herald+Sun&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=editorial&net_sub_uid=10147177

This was the OP. Of course anyone is free to turn it into a stroll through the groves of abstract academe and to explore the nature of logic if that what interests them. But the OP is talking about the ethics of forcing animals to eat a diet other than the one they have evolved to eat.
Its an act of violence, pure and simple. Its a power play.

Thank you. Thank you!

MaryAnne

seeker242 said:

MaryAnne said:

seeker242 said:

I'm sorry, but like I said before, what is natural is irrelevant.

Natural is irrelevant? Really, you mean that?
I'd like for you to explain that, please.

It's a matter of using correct logic and valid reasoning. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature

"An appeal to nature is an argument or rhetorical tactic in which it is proposed that "a thing is good because it is 'natural', or bad because it is 'unnatural'"

This type of reasoning is inherently flawed and illogical. "It's natural" just isn't good enough, as it doesn't prove anything either way. No valid conclusion can be drawn from simply the statements "it's natural" or "it's unnatural".

Citta said:

But we are not talking about ' scientific analysis of nutrional components

That is what I'm talking about! I also disagree with the rest of what you said.

@seeker242

Well then, let's take your theory (the total disregard of 'nature' and 'natural') and gather up ALL animals, both domesticated and wild, and keep them in pens, cages, behind high walls, in limited ponds and coves, in barricaded areas of ocean and forests, and just well, you know, feed them whatever WE think is acceptable to the codes and ethics of our religions and political fantasies, and just "keep" them that way.

Good way to thin the herds and get animal population under control... because eventually 80% of them will surely die. And those that live- well, they'll live a completely trapped and unnatural life at the hands of humans who decided to perpetrate this ungodly, unholy, unnatural, un-compassionate, passive-aggressive violence upon them- for their own good, don'tchaknow. Yeah, this could really work!

Christ, I hope I'm dead before any of this happens.

Jainarayan

seeker242 said:

With regards to a scientific analysis of nutritional components of a diet, yes!

*taps mat in surrender*