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Meditation and THC
Hello to all, I am a new member and I have read a lot of the discussions here, which have been very interesting. I am very fortunate to have been directed to this website as it addressed several topics I have been experiencing myself. I thank you all for sharing your experiences.
I am not much of a talker so I will get straight to the point. I do smoke on occasions (typically at night while doing most of my research/studying) and I have noticed I would fall into a more intense meditative state only after smoking. I've reached unexplainable stages of bliss from electrifying moments to complete stillness and silence. For the past few weeks I have been "cleansing" and I have noticed my meditation experiences have not been as blissful as prior experiences. I understand the role THC plays in the mind and body, however, since the cleansing I have not been able to reach even a mild meditative state. I have no intention of giving up my attempts as I continue to absorb as much helpful tips/information to assist me during my meditation sessions without the THC in the system.
Can anyone here relate to this topic? Please comment. Thank you.
Love & Light to all.
I am not much of a talker so I will get straight to the point. I do smoke on occasions (typically at night while doing most of my research/studying) and I have noticed I would fall into a more intense meditative state only after smoking. I've reached unexplainable stages of bliss from electrifying moments to complete stillness and silence. For the past few weeks I have been "cleansing" and I have noticed my meditation experiences have not been as blissful as prior experiences. I understand the role THC plays in the mind and body, however, since the cleansing I have not been able to reach even a mild meditative state. I have no intention of giving up my attempts as I continue to absorb as much helpful tips/information to assist me during my meditation sessions without the THC in the system.
Can anyone here relate to this topic? Please comment. Thank you.
Love & Light to all.
0
Comments
Anyway- I'm just running out the door, but will be back in a few hours and I will be glad to get involved in discussion.
They influence the mind, producing a state of "induced concentration" which can help us approach gateways of self that were going unnoticed. This like a crutch helping us walk with a broken leg. The drawback is that a state of induced meditation is unstable, and it becomes difficult to nourish the roots of the understandings. Similarly to how when we use a crutch, the muscle of the leg atrophies. Said differently, meditation is a much healthier and reliable form of exploration of different qualities of consciousness.
Theres a great deal of insight behind "just watch your breathing" that 1000's of volumes have been written about, countless threads here and elsewhere, teachers, gurus, zen masters, yogis, renounciants, etc.
Don't give up...but also dont cling to "I hope I reach a (x, y,z) kind of experience"
the benefits will show itself in due time by "just watch your breathing"
Namaste my friend
Metta
Similarly, where meditation is concerned, we're discussing a very wide definition so care should be taken when extrapolating - for example, in many traditions intoxicants are not utilised in meditation - therefore to take principles of a non-intoxicant system and apply them to an intoxicant system seems to invite yet further confusion.
By that I mean that for example, trying to understand a 'high' experience with the tools of a non-high practitioner sounds like a doctor playing vet - your classification of an 'intense' or 'mild' experience may just be your way of saying 'high' or 'not high' rather than denoting any significance to the meditation per se.
Yes.
Live, Love and Smile
:om:
Seeking after a particular state in meditative is just the development of an attachment to that particular state.
Regardless of using THC or not, the end result of this seeking will be your suffering.
:thumbsup:
This is just being 'spaced out'. That's because you never have.... Your attempts are embryonic.
Read the threads in the Meditation sub-forum to gather more insight.
I have successfully meditated with and without THC, but thanks again for your opinion. My comment was mostly based after the cleansing process I am currently going through. I do realize there is a lot more knowledge for me to gain and I rely on my higher self and experts to guide me through this process. Also, with all due respect, my mental awareness is strong enough to differentiate between being in a meditative state (mild or intense) or being "spaced out." Thank you for taking the time to comment.
:om:
Cannabis caused me to think so much differently, but I do not use it to think. understand the difference?
After careful consideration I've decided not to get too deeply involved with this 'discussion' for another go-round. All I can say is there seems to be two ways most people here approach this topic of Cannabis enhanced "meditation":
1) The vast majority of this forum's members - and many people in general - discuss this from a moral and/or religious standpoint --
i.e; ALL drugs are 'bad' and people who do drugs are doing a "bad' thing;
It's against the precepts; There is nothing 'good' about cannabis (because it's a "drug"), and You are fooling yourself if you believe anything 'good' can or does come of it.... They dismiss everyone's experiences with using cannabis - no matter how awe-inspiring or spiritually profound - as all 'drug induced' delusions and illusions.
Very rarely is anyone willing to discuss this topic from:
2) a strictly personal experiential / anecdotal POV (theirs or others') and /or from the pov of scientists and researchers who've studied its use in Art, Religion, Meditation, and other creative thought processes, without moral judgement.
Very rarely do people who are coming from the 1st POV willing to EVER admit that cannabis is a relatively benign substance and leave out their moral judgment.
It's an endless, useless discussion because people coming from #1 POV refuse to even temporarily set aside their own moral or religious code - even for the sake of discussion. Everyone is entitled to their choice of POV, that's cool.
But really, I've found that it always makes for a circular discussion in the long run when it comes to "enhanced" meditation or spiritual experiences.
YMMV
However, I do say don't crave or strive for this. It is only a stepping stone and not the goal of meditation.
In the Surangama Sutra, the Buddha said: And Ajahn Chah once said:
It does make you have nice, albeit delusional, experiences. A lot of people take view 1 because they have already been through this and found view 1 to be the correct one in the context of practicing Buddhism. So they just say "view one is correct" because they experienced, at the time, what appeared to be awe-inspiring or spiritually profound experiences, but when they later compared them to the clarity and insight that comes from Buddhist practice and meditation, they then realize that yea those experiences that I once thought were really profound, were really just delusions after all.
Like zen teacher Brad Warner says "People who say these things about drugs and meditation may have tried drugs but most have never really attempted much meditation. ...maybe they’ve been to a Vipassana retreat or even rented a cabin at Tassajara one summer. But they don’t have any real depth of experience with meditation to compare to their drug experiences."
What he says is just the truth. The experience can't even begin to compare to one another. Cannabis is a relatively benign substance physically. Heck, it's safer than alcohol. However, when it comes to Buddhist practice and eliminating delusions, it's not benign.
My personal experiential/anecdotal POV, I've had some deeply healing and insightful experiences while being "high" and meditating. I certainly do NOT recommend it to anyone due to the potential risks and morality backlash....but imo its an individual's decision. However its been years...a lifetime since doing this in my youth and currently I do not desire or crave a drug affected meditative state...but it was a gateway or door of perception at was opened that has lead to a more enriched state of being.
Laughable?
Not comparable. Not the same thing.
Appreciate what some have said about gateways but even so . . . :wave:
There's no state of mind that can't be brought to the cushion, including a mind altered by some psychoactive substance. Why not take that seriously? If a student has a meditative experience that's a lot like being stoned, well, I'd say that's worth serious and meaningful discussion. If a student has a profound experience during meditation while stoned, that, too, merits serious, and skillful counsel.
But most people can absolutely learn to control their thoughts and focus, or un-focus and allow free thought expression while "high" on cannabis.
Much of the time people who have never tried cannabis, and/or only used it a few times to GET "high" back in the day, don't realize (or remember) that cannabis can affect different people in different ways, and honestly, there is still a huge amount of "control factor" left to the user when it comes to mental state while high.
As for meditation; people use chanting, drumming, bells and other forms of "enhancement" to trigger and or altar their mind's state in order to facilitate a higher focus or level of meditation.
All that droning, monotone chanting monks do for hours on end while sitting.... you think they are merely chants or prayers? No, it actually changes the vibrational frequency of the brain.
Stand before a rotary fan and hum along with it... find that perfect pitch that matches the fan's hum and rotation and you will cause your brain to see through your eyes the fan's blades slow down significantly. The fan hasn't changed speed, your brain's perception has changed... by humming at a certain vibration/frequency.
This is what chanting or any repetitious sound does while meditating. Why is this manipulation (or "short cut" if you will) to a higher meditation state OK, but accentuating one's focus or free thought for meditation - with cannabis - is not?
Aahh yes.... because it's a 'drug' and a short cut.
And drugs & short cuts aren't allowed. One must 'work' to reach the top of the stairs by walking up each step slowly, one foot at a time, careful not to falter, not to fall back -- not jumping two or three steps at a time. And yet both will reach the top step eventually; but is one more superior than the other because of their slower, more sedate and conventional way of getting up those steps? ::: shrugs :::
It is for most of us legal to chant and is likely to lead to harder drugs . . . eh . . . more mindful fixes.
Does suffering lead to Buddhism? Yes very often.
Let us flagellate? . . . or maybe not even discuss . . .
Is THC calming? Yes. Relaxing? Yes.
Always, no.
Should we start a thread on meditation dependency? Maybe . . .
:scratch:
You are once again going back to dismissing the results, because of religious/moral judgement that using cannabis (the short cut) is a "bad" act according to BUDDHIST precepts....
What about people who are not specifically on the Buddhist path who have religious or profoundly 'spiritual' experiences while using cannabis? I wasn't a Buddhist when I had mine, so therefore I wasn't breaking any precept at the time.
What happened to the idea that even if Buddhist, not every Buddhist is seeking "enlightenment', nor uses mediation with that goal in mind? Not every Buddhist follows ALL the precepts ALL the time, and that goes for nearly everyone in this forum as well.
What happened to allowing others to walk the path as they see fit, as long as no harm is done to others and not judging who is a good Buddhist and who is bad ?
See? Mention cannabis, and suddenly everyone is a fundamentalist Buddhist, eh?
I know, I know, The Good Book of Precepts says it's wrong, so it's wrong. If anyone thinks their experience (with cannabis) was not "wrong" and instead believes their experiences brought them more open mindedness, more understanding and more spiritual JOY than any other "right" practice they had ever done before - or since- it's all delusion. Why? Well, because cannabis is "wrong"...
Also, isn't it pretty presumptuous to dismiss other people's personal, deeply spiritual experiences based on the rules and regulations you choose to follow to be a "good" Buddhist? Especially when in other areas, most of you are willing to delve into 'interpretations' of many of those precepts and rules, you know- when it suits.
Circular. Based in moral judgment. Gets nowhere, once again.
Peace.
"According to Buddhism, if your cultivation is not "right" cultivation. You will never reach the top. Although, you might reach something that appears to be the top."
If one thinks merely following all the rules, to the letter, (without true understanding & compassion in your mind and heart for yourself and others), is a golden ticket to "The Top"... whatever that is... maybe they are the deluded?
I met someone who had gained all their 'spirituality' from LSD. Did they have experiences? Yes.
Were they spiritual? Well in at least one persons head they were . . . I found the evidence underwhelming . . .
People have samadhi whist driving F1 racing cars. Do we discuss the merits of F1 Buddhism? On the whole - no . . .
This life is not as serious as some make it out to be...
Remember, this is all a game...time to level up!!
Love, Live and crack a damn smile!!! :om:
I met someone who had gained all their 'spirituality' from LSD. Did they have experiences? Yes.
Were they spiritual? Well in at least one persons head they were . . . I found the evidence underwhelming . . .
People have samadhi whist driving F1 racing cars. Do we discuss the merits of F1 Buddhism? On the whole - no . . .
But we do discuss the arrangements of sacred items on our shrine, the importance of Mala beads, various dietary restrictions.
We discuss whether our eyes should be open or closed in meditation. A pillow or a zafu?
And endless debate about important subtleties of view.
All very important spiritual issues.
Is any of it more spiritual than a discussion of how thc can affect our perceptions?
I like this little excerpt about it from here. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nanamoli/wheel377.html Most, if not all, Buddhist teachers, Buddhist wise men, etc. would agree that when one moves from conceptual right view into experiential right view, which is really what removes the delusion, one finds that they both say the same thing. When this happens, the rules are no longer "rules" or "dogma" but rather simply the truth of the situation.
many reasons.
Another disclaimer: I used to smoke ganja like a chimney in
my younger days....the fogginess and munchies eventually
just became more of a fight than a freedom. The negatives
outweighed the positives.
The thing that burns my bonnet about these THC conversations is...
arguing with someone about THEIR experience and making yours
better than theirs. For example....some of the meditative experiences
I have read and heard from Buddhists sound like a high trip and
or some simple mental/sense things going on while sitting. Spiritual?
Maybe. It's not up to me to find out for them. I make it an intention not
to judge and question these things that seem 'weird' that people describe.
If you see superman and feel at one with him after sitting....who am I
to say it didn't change you?
Same thing with getting buzzed/high. Was it spiritual for them? Maybe.
It's not up to me to find out for them. Buddhism, if I'm not mistaken,
is about understanding the mind and how/what it does to make us suffer.
So why would humans not be curious about mind altering substances?
No one is the Dharma police. No one is following All vows, All the
time. The experimentation and investigation is happening with all
of us, all the time.
Some of us may need to slow down on the intoxicants....
some of us may need to slow down on the meditating.
I find those with 20 years of regular intoxication have less wisdom than those with 20 years of refining their meditation practice. If your experience is different, all well and good. I only know that driving oneself crazy, taking drugs is interesting but not skilful. That is my experience. That is what most experienced practitioners suggest . . .
You want clarity of mind? You don't take intoxicants . . .
:wave:
That said, the Buddha made the fifth precept no intoxicants for this very reason: it obstructs the Buddhist path. Prior to enlightenment, it is said that he studied with other teachers, and tried various techniques that created powerful, blissful states, but he felt that they accomplished nothing in the end. So, he developed the technique of mindfulness meditation in order to be more engaged and as a result, gain insight into things as they exist.
The precepts are of course optional, but they are described as "training rules" for a reason: they train you to follow the path more effectively. So, like a doctor telling you to lose weight, you don't have to follow it if you don't want to, but sometimes you might be pleased with the result in the long-run if you do.
Good luck.
For example, Ram Dass who is an eminent expert on psychedelics and became a famous spiritual teacher, recognized the limits of psychedelics with the following conclusion: On another occasion, he said this: On whether the experience on psychedelics can be considered "true concentration", he admits that his Indian guru (Neem Karoli Baba) does not think so: When asked whether it was legitimate to make a distinction between a true meditative experience and a not-so-true meditative experience, Ram Dass said: When asked, "Where do psychedelics fit in with meditation? Should you stop doing one when you start the other?", he mentioned the use of cannabis as follows: When asked, "Why do most traditional spiritual teachers, and that includes the Buddhists, put down psychedelics and counsel against using drugs at all?", he acknowledges that it is best to follow a path as originally laid down ie. if the method as originally taught did not involve use of drugs then don't use drugs: The following is taken from Tricycle magazine's Roundtable with Ram Dass, Robert Aitken Roshi , Richard Baker Roshi , and Joan Halifax Roshi (All these people are well known American Buddhists who were also psychedelic pioneers from the 1960s): I think what we can gather from the above and other people's comments in this thread on the whole, I would say the balance tips heavily towards the conclusion that if you just want blissful mental states (which are impermanent and thus ultimately unsatisfactory) then it might be alright to use cannabis as an aid (leaving aside the obvious problem of illegality, negative karma and possible permanent damage to brain and intellect as some research indicates). However, if you would like to gain wisdom/insight from your meditative practices which will not only lead to real transcendence of suffering but is also needed to develop deeper levels of a variety of wholesome qualities such as metta, compassion and equanimity, then you should seriously consider abandoning the use of cannabis.
Remind me of this video by Hindu Guru Mooji, a student of Ramana Maharshi. "Mooji Answers a Question about Smoking Hash". Although to be fair, hash is way stronger than marijuana! Pretty funny video too.
"Yes. I am not the one smoking... my friend is"
lol
Mooji is laughing at that like he just smoked the spliff
I'm amazed that anyone could sit still and quieten the mind!
"From what I have gathered from those who have tried drugs and actually benefited from it, most also recognize that the benefit from drugs is limited to being a kind of eye opener into the possibility of a higher level of consciousness, but cannot provide an actual path for attaining real insight and wisdom."
It seems this way to me also. For what it's worth I have even heard Eric Clapton say exactly this of his experiments.
In metta,
Raven
I used to drink quite heavily between the ages of 19-22. To the point where I could drink rum like it was water. Many times I would drink almost a bottle of the stuff straight and not get blindingly drunk or be hungover the next day. I would try to meditate (I was Wiccan from 17-30) in a Pagan framework and would marvel at the "messages" from the gods. Then one day I realised I had a problem if I needed a few drinks to get me out of the house of a morning to go to work. I stopped drinking (Cold turkey, it wasn't a pleasant experience at all). My meditation was WAAAAY less intense and I felt I was being punished by the gods for something.
So, speaking from my own experience, yes using drugs (alcohol, prescription drugs and illicit ones) is cheating BIG TIME and the only one to suffer is the "user".
In metta,
Rave.