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Could a Buddhist believe in 'an eye for an eye' and corporal punishment?

TheEccentricTheEccentric Hampshire, UK Veteran
edited July 2013 in Buddhism Today
I personally believe that some people who are/were unarguably monsters should have/be given an equal punishment for the crimes they have commited for example serial killers such as Ian Brady, I just don't think that people like that should be allowed to live after the awful things they have done.

I think people are far too soft on these people now and I'm all for human rights but surely if someone takes away your rights surely it just fair to take their's away as well?

Comments

  • aMattaMatt Veteran
    Compassion is usually for all sentient beings! The causes that are present that lead people to murder are impermanent, and have the potential to cease. I agree that some people need to be isolated to prevent them from doing harm to themselves and others, but also believe they have the potential to awaken the Buddha qualities inside them. Murder a murderer? What a simple way of passing the momentum of samsara from their actions to ours!
    Vastmindriverflow
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    I personally believe that some people who are/were unarguably monsters should have/be given an equal punishment for the crimes they have commited for example serial killers such as Ian Brady, I just don't think that people like that should be allowed to live after the awful things they have done.

    Fortunately, the Law does.
    he's mentally unhinged.
    You think he should be murdered simply because his mind is in a different state to yours?
    I think people are far too soft on these people now and I'm all for human rights but surely if someone takes away your rights surely it just fair to take their's away as well?
    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind".

    Someone far wiser - and very persecuted - said that.

    riverflowJeffrey
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    You can find statements by wise people to support almost any position.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    A Buddhist could believe in "eye for an eye", but not a wise one.

  • zenffzenff Veteran
    For some people the law of karma includes exactly this type of justice. Equal punishment is in store for every crime committed. And at the other hand there’s an appropriate reward for every good action too.
    We just don’t always see it happening in this lifetime.

    I think you can be a Buddhist and believe that the universe is ruled by the law of karma and is ultimately just. We don’t even need to bother interfering with punishing or rewarding for ourselves.
    Maybe that’s the reason Buddhists don’t need to be so revengeful? Because they believe the law of karma takes care of that?

    Personally I think the “law of karma” is far more direct. People who do horrible things are in a horrible state of mind. The punishment is immediate. Just like the reward of a kind act is immediate. People who do a kind act are in a happy state of mind.
    Jeffreyriverflow
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Yes, there are those 2 different views of karma.

    I have often thought, however, that if the Buddhists of Cambodia hadn't been so passive with Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge, that perhaps 2.2 million people wouldn't have been slaughtered (literally).
    kaytemfranzdorf
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    You can have compassion to fix your mind and heart. But compassion may not fix samsara: gain/loss, pleasure/pain, praise/blame, or faim/infamay. This shows that you make effort without being discouraged by outcome. Right Action.
    riverflow
  • Too right!!! Its only fair...

    However, i dont understand why anybody would want to give someone the death penalty.. Why should we give them peace????

    For me, Death equals peace

    If a monster commited a horrible crime towards one of my loved ones, i wouldnt want him dead , i would want him kept alive........ So i could torture him and put him through the same amount of pain they put others through....
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    That kind of comment makes my blood run cold...

    It's what you would want....
    But do you think you would actually be capable of doing it?
    lobsterkarasti
  • federica said:

    That kind of comment makes my blood run cold...

    It's what you would want....
    But do you think you would actually be capable of doing it?

    Ahh, now thats a different question...

    But truth is, it all depends to be honest.
    I have kids, now im sorry but if we are talking about people doing things that are too hurtful and painful to write on here then i would think yes i could be capable of doing it.

    The way i see it is, its all well and good being all nice and buddhist but that shouldnt mean others can get away with doing sick things and im going to be all compassionate and calm just because im a "buddhist"

    There is definitely a line for me personally... Sorry!
  • TheEccentricTheEccentric Hampshire, UK Veteran
    federica said:

    I personally believe that some people who are/were unarguably monsters should have/be given an equal punishment for the crimes they have commited for example serial killers such as Ian Brady, I just don't think that people like that should be allowed to live after the awful things they have done.

    Fortunately, the Law does.
    he's mentally unhinged.
    You think he should be murdered simply because his mind is in a different state to yours?
    I think people are far too soft on these people now and I'm all for human rights but surely if someone takes away your rights surely it just fair to take their's away as well?
    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind".

    Someone far wiser - and very persecuted - said that.



    Most people are law abiding and moral people so would not end up badly punished, if that were true then in biblical times when that was upheld they would of been blind and toothless.

    Regardless of his mental condition if I were one of the children he heartlessly murdered I would of hoped that some one would have put things right and help him feel the pain he put upon me.

    And besides I'm pretty sure Hitler wasn't right mentally either but that isn't at all an excuse for what he did.
  • TheEccentricTheEccentric Hampshire, UK Veteran
    zenmyste said:

    Too right!!! Its only fair...

    However, i dont understand why anybody would want to give someone the death penalty.. Why should we give them peace????

    For me, Death equals peace

    If a monster commited a horrible crime towards one of my loved ones, i wouldnt want him dead , i would want him kept alive........ So i could torture him and put him through the same amount of pain they put others through....

    Oh but I am not at all talking of a peaceful death here, a slow and painful one.

    And besides in prison it is the tax payer who has to pay to keep him alive.
  • TheEccentricTheEccentric Hampshire, UK Veteran
    seeker242 said:

    A Buddhist could believe in "eye for an eye", but not a wise one.

    There is nothing wise about not enforcing justice.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    Tonglen is a method where you take in the pain of the other and breath out your good feelings and fortune to others. It teaches that the goodness of the ground of being is endless. Your heart can become big and accept all the pain inside of it.
  • TheEccentricTheEccentric Hampshire, UK Veteran
    Jeffrey said:

    Tonglen is a method where you take in the pain of the other and breath out your good feelings and fortune to others. It teaches that the goodness of the ground of being is endless. Your heart can become big and accept all the pain inside of it.

    I have grown to wish the best for all sentient beings, even those who I thought to have wronged me and previously disliked or even hated except from the few people as twisted as Ian Brady, I can not help but loathe him, nothing could make me wish anything good for him, nor can I understand how anyone could.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited July 2013
    @TheEccentric, Yes, that's
    I can not help but loathe him, nothing could make me wish anything good for him, nor can I understand how anyone could.
    true. We don't have much control over our thoughts which is what happens in meditation, right? You shouldn't be praised or sanctioned just because of your thoughts. That said your beliefs are dear to you as with everybody.
  • 3. "He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who harbor such thoughts do not still their hatred.

    4. "He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who do not harbor such thoughts still their hatred.

    5. Hatred is never appeased by hatred in this world. By non-hatred alone is hatred appeased. This is a law eternal.

    6. There are those who do not realize that one day we all must die. But those who do realize this settle their quarrels.

    Dhammapada, chapter 1

    ~~~~~~~~~~

    This doesn't mean society should not hold criminals responsible for their actions and the harm they cause, but the law ideally should operate in an impartial way.

    As far as the death penalty goes, in the context of the precepts, the death penalty runs counter to it.

    How many criminals have we imprisoned and/or executed already who turned out innocent after all? What we do? Shrug our shoulders and just say "oops, sorry dude, we screwed up"?

    And how can we judge whether someone should die and have no hope of reforming themselves? Does placing dotted lines around the murderer to separate him from "us" let everyone "us" off the hook? How does a killer learn to devalue life in order to kill? Murderers do not just spring up out of a vacuum. Last I checked, I saw no fine print by the precept to not kill that made special exceptions for people that get us emotionally worked up.

    "Eliminating undesirables" by executing criminals or just locking them up without any opportunity for rehabilitation within prison seems lazy to me and indicates a lack of social responsibility. They should be locked up-- not for our emotional gratification, but for the benefit of the safety of society and potential future victims, for the benefit of the victim and his/her family who grieve and whose emotional well-being has suffered greatly-- and for the benefit of the criminal, in order to provide an opportunity for reformation (even if they never do get released later in life).

    The law should act out of impartiality, not the self gratification of ignoble desires-- even if we do find the criminal's act despicable. The death penalty should have gone the way of the medieval world. It teaches us nothing.

    But it sure feels good to strike back, don't it? We don't ask ourselves: Where does that feeling come from? We should put aside such baseness. It does no one any good-- it only perpetuates base emotions which lead to further suffering for everyone.
    Yaskankarmablues
  • When people ask me the " Do Buddhists believe?" questions i often say whilst the teachings do help a great deal it is more about looking within and coming to your own conclusion based on evidence and experience. If all buddhists believed in the same thing just because they had to coz they were buddhist how dull a world would that be.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited July 2013

    seeker242 said:

    A Buddhist could believe in "eye for an eye", but not a wise one.

    There is nothing wise about not enforcing justice.
    No there isn't. Which is why Buddhist wise men are not opposed to putting people in jail. But wise men don't exact revenge. They have no need to. "Justice" is often disguised as revenge. Wise man have nothing but compassion for murderers, but that does not mean you just let them roam the streets.

    Killing is never skillful and as a properly practicing Buddhist, one should condemn any killing of other living beings, even when those beings are murderers and rapists. The Dalai Lama recently said the Delhi gang rapists, who engaged in a brutal gang rape and murder of a woman on a bus in New Delhi, should not be executed and that the death penalty is not the answer.

    As for the buddha himself, when asked if there was anything whose killing he approved of, the Buddha answered that there was only one thing: anger. In no recorded instance did he approve of killing any living being at all. When one of his monks went to an executioner and told the man to kill his victims compassionately, with one blow, rather than torturing them, the Buddha expelled the monk from the Sangha, on the grounds that even the recommendation to kill compassionately is still a recommendation to kill, something he would never condone. The Buddha taught that the death penalty is not wise.

    Of course people can believe whatever they want. But if someone has a real and sincere desire to practice and follow Buddhism, it would be prudent to know what the Buddha himself said about such things.

    .

    And besides in prison it is the tax payer who has to pay to keep him alive.

    At least in the USA, executing a person, on average, costs much more tax payer money than is spent to put the person in prison for life.

    There was a study in California to examine the costs. Using conservative rough projections, the Commission estimates the annual costs of the present (death penalty) system to be $137 million per year. The cost of the present death penalty system with reforms recommended by the Commission to ensure a fair process would be $232.7 million per year. The cost of a system which imposes a maximum penalty of lifetime incarceration instead of the death penalty would be $11.5 million per year.

    So death penalty costs CA 137 million to over 200 million a year. While life in prison costs CA 11 million a year. It's quite similar throughout all of the USA. The death penalty is extremely expensive to taxpayers. Life in prison is much, much cheaper!


    karmabluesriverflowJeffrey
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    @zenmyste I have 3 kids, and I can say that I'm not so sure I would want to exact that kind of suffering on another person if they did it to my kids. More suffering is more suffering. It is the same mentality that gets us into more wars.

    Last year, a kid 6 years older than my then 9 year old, pulled him off his bike and punched him enough to bruise him and knock the wind out of him. (hardly serious when you consider what things happen to other kids of course). I could have handled it any number of ways. First, I tried to talk to him and when met with threats against my other kids, I called law enforcement. They talked to us, and to the teenager and he has not crossed paths with us again. But with my own kids, I used it as an opportunity say "yeah, he did something wrong and he should not have done it. But look where he comes from. Look what he is lacking compared to your life. He has a mother that doesn't care if he eats, and a father who just got released from prison for sexually abusing him. So, while it's ok to initially feel scared and angry, remember what you have and he does not: a family to come home to when things go wrong, to get hugs from, to look out for you. He doesn't have that, and for that, we can have compassion for him even if we strongly disagree with his choice in actions." Anything can be a lesson in compassion if that is the road we choose. Anger and revenge does not serve anyone well. Initially I actually yelled at the kid and later I apologized for what I said. I don't agree with him punching my child. But I feel a great degree of compassion for that boy, and I practice for him every single day.

    Anger is a choice. It does not have to be a given. Many people who are forced into horrible things make wise decisions on how it impacts their lives. Others choose the road of anger and hate and revenge. They don't usually come out on the upside of anything.
    karmabluesriverflowJeffrey
  • vinlyn said:

    Yes, there are those 2 different views of karma.

    I have often thought, however, that if the Buddhists of Cambodia hadn't been so passive with Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge, that perhaps 2.2 million people wouldn't have been slaughtered (literally).

    Ditto!!!
    I could never understand why people would allow these dictators to abuse their power. One crazy monarch or emperor can damage an entire population. Wouldn't that make passive people share in the responsibility for allowing it?


  • zenffzenff Veteran
    edited July 2013
    I love this poem by Thich Nhat Hanh
    It is about “being” the rapist of a young girl.

    What is Buddhism worth if it makes us capable of opening our hearts for people who are kind and friendly?
    Opening our hearts for - or “being” - a rapist doesn’t mean we encourage rape but whatever we do to prevent it in the future or to deal with the perpetrator comes from a place of compassion; not from a place of hate and revenge.

    Call Me by My True Names

    Do not say that I'll depart tomorrow
    because even today I still arrive.

    Look deeply: I arrive in every second
    to be a bud on a spring branch,
    to be a tiny bird, with wings still fragile,
    learning to sing in my new nest,
    to be a caterpillar in the heart of a flower,
    to be a jewel hiding itself in a stone.

    I still arrive, in order to laugh and to cry,
    in order to fear and to hope.

    The rhythm of my heart is the birth and
    death of all that are alive.

    I am the mayfly metamorphosing on the surface of the river,
    and I am the bird which, when spring comes, arrives in time
    to eat the mayfly.
    I am the frog swimming happily in the clear pond,
    and I am also the grass-snake who, approaching in silence,
    feeds itself on the frog.
    I am the child in Uganda, all skin and bones,
    my legs as thin as bamboo sticks,
    and I am the arms merchant, selling deadly weapons to
    Uganda.
    I am the twelve-year-old girl, refugee on a small boat,
    who throws herself into the ocean after being raped by a sea
    pirate,
    and I am the pirate, my heart not yet capable of seeing and
    loving.
    I am a member of the politburo, with plenty of power in my
    hands,
    and I am the man who has to pay his "debt of blood" to, my
    people,
    dying slowly in a forced labor camp.

    My joy is like spring, so warm it makes flowers bloom in all
    walks of life.
    My pain is like a river of tears, so full it fills the four oceans.
    Please call me by my true names,
    so I can hear all my cries and laughs at once,
    so I can see that my joy and pain are one.

    Please call me by my true names,
    so I can wake up,
    and so the door of my heart can be left open,
    the door of compassion.

    Thich Nhat Hanh

    Omar067riverflow
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    I think in all my time on newbuddhist, this is possibly one of the most sinister and nastiest threads I remember seeing.
    I can't believe so many so-called 'practising would-be Buddhists' would not only harbour such thoughts, but actually cultivate them.

    Not impressed.
    riverflow
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    kayte said:


    I could never understand why people would allow these dictators to abuse their power. One crazy monarch or emperor can damage an entire population. Wouldn't that make passive people share in the responsibility for allowing it?


    "Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, IT IS THE LEADERS of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is TELL THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. IT WORKS THE SAME IN ANY COUNTRY."

    --Goering at the Nuremberg Trials

    That is how a nation's collective mentality can be influenced.
    Two things determine the populace's level of fear: Two tools are exploited by those in power, to keep people 'in line'.
    The threat of War, and the threat of Eternal Damnation in Hell.
    Military might, and the need for national Aggression
    and
    Religion.

    For Evil to Triumph it is merely necessary that Good men do nothing.

    Yet if one were to examine the annals of history, in every conflict there were those who 'stood up' to this insanity, and did good, in order to save others.
    I'd rather think I would be one of those, than one of the 'sheep' who blindly followed and didn't ask questions for fear of making waves.

    Those here who advocate violence, and an eye for an eye, seem to me, to fall into the unskilful 'sheep' category.

    My opinion.
    riverflowkayte
  • Omar067Omar067 Veteran
    edited July 2013
    I could have probably agreed with the topic a year ago, but my never ending cycle of thoughts changed my opinion. Killing someone, just because they killed others, only allows for the survival of suffering. People who kill other beings on Earth have people that love them. That person's death will cause his or her family to suffer. You're depriving a person of their right to live. Every person on Earth has Buddha Nature. However people take away their chance to awaken, and allow them to sink into the horrors of the Naraka realm. To add to what others have said, you are no different from the criminal if you stoop to that person's level. It is bad to harbor hate for others in your heart. I have just recently learned that.
    karmabluesriverflow
  • Omar067Omar067 Veteran
    zenmyste said:

    Too right!!! Its only fair...

    However, i dont understand why anybody would want to give someone the death penalty.. Why should we give them peace????

    For me, Death equals peace

    If a monster commited a horrible crime towards one of my loved ones, i wouldnt want him dead , i would want him kept alive........ So i could torture him and put him through the same amount of pain they put others through....

    Don't let revenge play its sickening game with your mind. The strong people forgive. They show restraint and compassion.
    riverflow
  • zenmystezenmyste Veteran
    edited July 2013
    Ok then. ill just be ok with putting them in prison where they end up doing only half their sentence, they get 3 meals aday, they work out in the gym, they can all brag about what they did to each other..... And not only that, ill pay my taxes for them to be in there............. Hows that??

    Dont me me laugh...

    I think its sick how much people get away with such disgusting crimes..
    Putting them in prison is luxury these days...
  • TheEccentricTheEccentric Hampshire, UK Veteran
    zenmyste said:

    Ok then. ill just be ok with putting them in prison where they end up doing only half their sentence, they get 3 meals aday, they work out in the gym, they can all brag about what they did to each other..... And not only that, ill pay my taxes for them to be in there............. Hows that??

    Dont me me laugh...

    I think its sick how much people get away with such disgusting crimes..
    Putting them in prison is luxury these days...

    I know it is all these dreadful human rights activists' fault, the seem to like these criminals nore than decent people.

    Prison is a punishment and a deterent not just to prevent the criminal from repeating the crime.
  • Prison is a punishment and a deterent not just to prevent the criminal from repeating the crime.

    Whats punishment about having 3 meals aday made for you, paying no taxes, playing snooker, darts and poker, working out in the gym, reading different books in the library, taking part in different courses, having a tv and games console in your cell and when you eventually get released you get given money to help you out......

    The only reason why some people dont like prision is because of the other inmates ... (Not because of the prison itself)

    The way prisons are run,it really is luxury... Just think, you could just sit in your cell all day if you want and meditate....
    Ive heard of people who re-offend crimes just so they can go back to prison...... That only indicates one thing, prison aint that much of a punishmnt
  • TheEccentricTheEccentric Hampshire, UK Veteran
    zenmyste said:

    Prison is a punishment and a deterent not just to prevent the criminal from repeating the crime.

    Whats punishment about having 3 meals aday made for you, paying no taxes, playing snooker, darts and poker, working out in the gym, reading different books in the library, taking part in different courses, having a tv and games console in your cell and when you eventually get released you get given money to help you out......

    The only reason why some people dont like prision is because of the other inmates ... (Not because of the prison itself)

    The way prisons are run,it really is luxury... Just think, you could just sit in your cell all day if you want and meditate....
    Ive heard of people who re-offend crimes just so they can go back to prison...... That only indicates one thing, prison aint that much of a punishmnt
    Exactly, prison should be made to be unpleasant as it is supposed to be a punishment.
  • federica said:

    kayte said:


    I could never understand why people would allow these dictators to abuse their power. One crazy monarch or emperor can damage an entire population. Wouldn't that make passive people share in the responsibility for allowing it?


    "Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, IT IS THE LEADERS of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is TELL THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. IT WORKS THE SAME IN ANY COUNTRY."

    --Goering at the Nuremberg Trials

    That is how a nation's collective mentality can be influenced.
    Two things determine the populace's level of fear: Two tools are exploited by those in power, to keep people 'in line'.
    The threat of War, and the threat of Eternal Damnation in Hell.
    Military might, and the need for national Aggression
    and
    Religion.

    For Evil to Triumph it is merely necessary that Good men do nothing.

    Yet if one were to examine the annals of history, in every conflict there were those who 'stood up' to this insanity, and did good, in order to save others.
    I'd rather think I would be one of those, than one of the 'sheep' who blindly followed and didn't ask questions for fear of making waves.

    Those here who advocate violence, and an eye for an eye, seem to me, to fall into the unskilful 'sheep' category.

    My opinion.
    This is a pattern throughout history, I think. I firmly believe that religion is one of the factors preventing mankind from evolving. It's frightening to see the fundamentalist versions of the "big 3" religions on the rise. Maybe that's due to the increasing number of people identifying as atheists, agnostics, or just non religious. They do seem to vilify that group as it would weaken their control over the masses.
    riverflow
  • TheEccentricTheEccentric Hampshire, UK Veteran
    Sorry, I just realised it should be capital punishment, not corporal.
  • FlorianFlorian Veteran
    'To make a man a judge is to kill him without a knife.'

    A Sufi saying.
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    Consider would you wish to take upon yourself the karma of being responsible for the enforced death of others. In the scriptures it says that even killing a mosquito out of anger is a cause of rebirth within the hell realms.

  • I'm reading this discussion while my 5 year old son plays on the floor and my wife is on the couch talking with her mother. If a loved one was hurt by a human monster it would be quite a test of myself to not feel hate towards them.

    A life is a life as far as Buddhist practice, right? What if there was a dangerous dog roaming the neighborhood, and it attacks and kills a child. Once the dog is captured, it is clear that it is fierce and will likely attack again. Is the same compassion required? I know the answer should be yes.
    riverflow
  • Omar067Omar067 Veteran
    You have probably not seen or been to a prison. It is one of the most unpleasant places. It's like one of the Naraka realms. You have a bunch of violent people stacked in an extremely hostile place. You have to fight to survive. You sometimes have to stay with bad cell mates. Prisons are racist. A gang member can attack you at anytime because you look different. Even if some guys are respected by their peers they still won't enjoy prison life. Nobody is safe in prison. You can't show your emotions because it is a sign of weakness. It's hard to live that kind of life. Some people choose death over life in prison.
  • Omar067Omar067 Veteran

    I'm reading this discussion while my 5 year old son plays on the floor and my wife is on the couch talking with her mother. If a loved one was hurt by a human monster it would be quite a test of myself to not feel hate towards them.

    A life is a life as far as Buddhist practice, right? What if there was a dangerous dog roaming the neighborhood, and it attacks and kills a child. Once the dog is captured, it is clear that it is fierce and will likely attack again. Is the same compassion required? I know the answer should be yes.

    Only kill an enemy when he is serious threat to life. However, if you can fend of an enemy without killing him then you should not kill.
    TheEccentric
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