I have a problem

banned_crab

The problem is that instead of enjoying this relaxation of meditation all it turns into for me is a resistance to the compulsions. My few hours spent meditating just felt like no more than resistance. My entire last few months consisted of a fight between myself and the delayed reflection of myself, this follows me into meditation. I believe my subconscious is the delayed reflection of my self, the thoughts I entertain become habits and the habits engrave themselves onto the will of my subconscious. Therefore by feeding my habits I also feed my enemy. Are we all fighting? Does the fighting ever stop? it just seems like im stuck between 2 halves of myself and every moment I dont spend fighting the darker self is a moment spent supplying that darker self. If I stop fighting I slowly become consumed by the darkness ,thus I lose all mindfulness.This self controls my life because it controls my emotions.The control wants me to believe that it can lead to salvation. The salvation is an illusion and the path transforms into disappointment. Knowing not to trust the control is not enough, I have to resist it. But constantly resisting and fighting requires constant effort. In theory a sufficient amount of effort and energy would be the key to defeating it. I thought I figured it out than I questioned if even an infinite amount of energy would be adequate to my desire.You see at first I thought I was fighting a defeatable enemy, than it turned into what I judged as an invincible enemy ,until I finally realized that I was only fighting a ghost. A ghost that I create,a ghost that I constantly create, a ghost that we all create.

Id like to know how some of you may have countered these formless yet endless encounters .

wrathfuldeity

hari kari

wrathfuldeity

^flippant but...

the wrathful will mirror and block your every move
you must fight on, blow by blow,
fighting, grasping, resisting
keep fighting...blow by blow....
there is nothing left...exhaustion
nothing left but self sacrifice...hari kari
so that the wrathful can not strike the final blow
you steal victory as you fall through the darkness...
falling, falling, falling...into the light

riverflow

[LINK]

Observe the clouds. Don't push them away, don't chase after them.

One of the best videos on meditation (shikantaza).

The spoken part of the video itself lasts only 6 minutes. I highly recommend it.

riverflow

heyimacrab said:

But constantly resisting and fighting requires constant effort. In theory a sufficient amount of effort and energy would be the key to defeating it.

You will never beat the monkey mind at his own game. You need a totally different tactic: mindfulness.

You cannot stop a thought with a thought. Mindfulness means observation, awareness, NOT controlling.

When a baby cries, even after you have taken care to feed him, you cannot stop the baby from crying by jostling it around, shouting "stop crying!" What does a baby do if you shake it, trying to force it to stop crying? ...But if you sit patiently and quietly with the baby by the crib and let the baby's tiredness wash over it, the cries will subside. No manipulation required.

Control got you in this fix in the first place. What makes you think it will get you out of it too?

zenff

Don't fight. Don't try to defeat anything at all.
Trust the process of meditation.

zenff

If you like paradoxes: when you stop fighting you won, when you don’t try to defeat anything at all, they are all defeated.

karasti

How long have you been meditating? Did you start off with hours of practice right away? Maybe best to cut back and work up to longer periods as your mind calms and is better trained? *I* think for most people a gradual progression seems to work the best. I mean, just in the people I know and stuff. Start small and as you get comfortable, increase the time increments. It took me a long time to work up from 5 minutes to 30 minutes, but then after that it goes easier. Just like running, learning how to run the first 3 miles was HARD. But after that, it was just a matter of adding distance/time each day and it went smoothly.

aMatt

Heyimacrab,

It seems like you feel there are two crabs inside... a present crab and an echo crab, but this is not the case. There are thoughts... and it seems you're struggling with stuffing them down. Consider watching Ajahn Jayasaro's counting breath meditation on YouTube. Your mind is simply agitated, and you're trying to shoo away what cannot be shooed... the act of shooing adds momentum, like a dog chasing its tail. The Jayasaro video will give you an instruction on what to do with your mind instead of chasing down thoughts or trying to excise them.

With warmth,
Matt

banned_crab

aMatt said:

Heyimacrab,

It seems like you feel there are two crabs inside... a present crab and an echo crab, but this is not the case. There are thoughts... and it seems you're struggling with stuffing them down. Consider watching Ajahn Jayasaro's counting breath meditation on YouTube. Your mind is simply agitated, and you're trying to shoo away what cannot be shooed... the act of shooing adds momentum, like a dog chasing its tail. The Jayasaro video will give you an instruction on what to do with your mind instead of chasing down thoughts or trying to excise them.

With warmth,
Matt

Okay ill definetly watch the video than Ill tell you what I think

karasti said:

How long have you been meditating? Did you start off with hours of practice right away? Maybe best to cut back and work up to longer periods as your mind calms and is better trained? *I* think for most people a gradual progression seems to work the best. I mean, just in the people I know and stuff. Start small and as you get comfortable, increase the time increments. It took me a long time to work up from 5 minutes to 30 minutes, but then after that it goes easier. Just like running, learning how to run the first 3 miles was HARD. But after that, it was just a matter of adding distance/time each day and it went smoothly.

Alright Ill try shortening m practices.

zenff said:

If you like paradoxes: when you stop fighting you won, when you don’t try to defeat anything at all, they are all defeated.

If I stop fighting it wins because it consumes me

riverflow said:

[LINK]

Observe the clouds. Don't push them away, don't chase after them.

One of the best videos on meditation (shikantaza).

The spoken part of the video itself lasts only 6 minutes. I highly recommend it.

Will check it out for sure thanks

wrathfuldeity said:

^flippant but...

the wrathful will mirror and block your every move
you must fight on, blow by blow,
fighting, grasping, resisting
keep fighting...blow by blow....
there is nothing left...exhaustion
nothing left but self sacrifice...hari kari
so that the wrathful can not strike the final blow
you steal victory as you fall through the darkness...
falling, falling, falling...into the light

Im afraid of fighting forever

federica

You still don't get it, do you....?

Gui

A method I use from time to time is to imagine my thoughts are like waves in the sea. They arise and fall. They may be interesting if I concern myself with them but they are not me, just thoughts. Coming and going. Coming and going. Ho-hum.
Just sit.
Hope this helps.

misecmisc1

whatever arises, stays for a while and then ceases. so relax. you don't have to do anything. don't try to control anything, because all things are not you, so you cannot control anything - but in every moment, you can choose right intention over wrong intention. be kind, gentle, try to develop patience and tolerance, and no aversion towards things which are not skillful. it seems to me that i am acting as a complete hypocrite by saying these things, as i myself not able to do these things, but my theoretical understanding says that these things should be done, so i suggest you to try these things to see if they work for you.

banned_crab

Gui said:

A method I use from time to time is to imagine my thoughts are like waves in the sea. They arise and fall. They may be interesting if I concern myself with them but they are not me, just thoughts. Coming and going. Coming and going. Ho-hum.
Just sit.
Hope this helps.

Okay Ill definetly give this a try a few times, the idea of it sounds relaxing.

misecmisc1 said:

whatever arises, stays for a while and then ceases. so relax. you don't have to do anything. don't try to control anything, because all things are not you, so you cannot control anything - but in every moment, you can choose right intention over wrong intention. be kind, gentle, try to develop patience and tolerance, and no aversion towards things which are not skillful. it seems to me that i am acting as a complete hypocrite by saying these things, as i myself not able to do these things, but my theoretical understanding says that these things should be done, so i suggest you to try these things to see if they work for you.

So I should fight my desires, go against my subconscious will?

I think I understand, but will this result in good habits or an endless fight against nothing?

misecmisc1

heyimacrab said:

misecmisc1 said:

whatever arises, stays for a while and then ceases. so relax. you don't have to do anything. don't try to control anything, because all things are not you, so you cannot control anything - but in every moment, you can choose right intention over wrong intention. be kind, gentle, try to develop patience and tolerance, and no aversion towards things which are not skillful. it seems to me that i am acting as a complete hypocrite by saying these things, as i myself not able to do these things, but my theoretical understanding says that these things should be done, so i suggest you to try these things to see if they work for you.

So I should fight my desires, go against my subconscious will?

I think I understand, but will this result in good habits or an endless fight against nothing?

don't fight anything. in meditation, just sit and observe what is going on, try to detach from the thought process, no aversion towards thought, try to observe the thoughts as they are something external to you and you have no business to do with whatever they are talking about, just see your thoughts as a third person will see your thoughts. don't try to remove the thoughts from the mind. say to your mind that if you are going to think things which you dont like, then your mind is free to think those things and you do not have any problem with it. develop kindness towards whatever arises in the mind, don't hold onto it and don't reject it. gradually when you stop getting involved with the thoughts, they will loose power over you and then the thoughts will arise and cease, without you getting involved in it. it can take much time, so have patience and relax.

lobster

heyimacrab said:

I think I understand, but will this result in good habits or an endless fight against nothing?

You are meant to fight nothing, with nothing?
Nobody tells me Nothing . . . :scratch:

I find a practice diary useful when combat active. I write down the arisings, thoughts, preoccupations, ghost stuff, physical sensations and anything I find relevant. I also score my 'adversaries' for:

fighting skill
artistic merit
pain threshold
funny make up

. . . hope that is not too confrontational and of some benefit

:wave:

banned_crab

misecmisc1 said:

heyimacrab said:

misecmisc1 said:

whatever arises, stays for a while and then ceases. so relax. you don't have to do anything. don't try to control anything, because all things are not you, so you cannot control anything - but in every moment, you can choose right intention over wrong intention. be kind, gentle, try to develop patience and tolerance, and no aversion towards things which are not skillful. it seems to me that i am acting as a complete hypocrite by saying these things, as i myself not able to do these things, but my theoretical understanding says that these things should be done, so i suggest you to try these things to see if they work for you.

So I should fight my desires, go against my subconscious will?

I think I understand, but will this result in good habits or an endless fight against nothing?

don't fight anything. in meditation, just sit and observe what is going on, try to detach from the thought process, no aversion towards thought, try to observe the thoughts as they are something external to you and you have no business to do with whatever they are talking about, just see your thoughts as a third person will see your thoughts. don't try to remove the thoughts from the mind. say to your mind that if you are going to think things which you dont like, then your mind is free to think those things and you do not have any problem with it. develop kindness towards whatever arises in the mind, don't hold onto it and don't reject it. gradually when you stop getting involved with the thoughts, they will loose power over you and then the thoughts will arise and cease, without you getting involved in it. it can take much time, so have patience and relax.

Okay thanks this is some of the best advice ive gotten so far

Jeffrey

Just let yourself lose. How would that be? It's just your mind playing out this scene and you are fighting against yourself so it is like punching tar and getting more and more stuck. Although it feels uncomfortable I would just welcome the experience .

You see at first I thought I was fighting a defeatable enemy, than it turned into what I judged as an invincible enemy ,until I finally realized that I was only fighting a ghost. A ghost that I create,a ghost that I constantly create, a ghost that we all create.

This is what you experience so just rest in that. Maybe you should let the ghost win and disempower it because you are not punching the tar ghost. The ghost is just an empty ripple. It won't last forever, just keep letting go.


But I don't understand what you mean by 'delayed reaction'?

banned_crab

lobster said:

heyimacrab said:

I think I understand, but will this result in good habits or an endless fight against nothing?

You are meant to fight nothing, with nothing?
Nobody tells me Nothing . . . :scratch:

I find a practice diary useful when combat active. I write down the arisings, thoughts, preoccupations, ghost stuff, physical sensations and anything I find relevant. I also score my 'adversaries' for:

fighting skill
artistic merit
pain threshold
funny make up

. . . hope that is not too confrontational and of some benefit

:wave:

Your advice is always too complicated for me I honestly never understand what your saying.

banned_crab

Jeffrey said:

Just let yourself lose. How would that be? It's just your mind playing out this scene and you are fighting against yourself so it is like punching tar and getting more and more stuck. Although it feels uncomfortable I would just welcome the experience .

You see at first I thought I was fighting a defeatable enemy, than it turned into what I judged as an invincible enemy ,until I finally realized that I was only fighting a ghost. A ghost that I create,a ghost that I constantly create, a ghost that we all create.

This is what you experience so just rest in that. Maybe you should let the ghost win and disempower it because you are not punching the tar ghost. The ghost is just an empty ripple. It won't last forever, just keep letting go.


But I don't understand what you mean by 'delayed reaction'?

Im afraid that if I stop fighting ill just lose myself. The only thing that I feel keeps me mindful and slightly aware is the fighting.

Delayed reflection is the idea of your subconscious being a reflection of your habits. I call it a delayed reflection because it reflects what youve done before and expects you to continue that, therefore it has a will of its own.

BTW its delayed "reflection" not reaction

Jeffrey

So you have a fear of losing yourself. Maybe it would feel better if you did lose yourself? In some ways we just have to make a jump into the blender, though we also need to center ourselves. Awareness is indestructible (unless you don't believe in rebirth). I promise you your awareness won't disappear. I think I call delayed reflection 'habit energy'. It means you didn't choose it it is just a habit. So if I never hang a coat on a hook for awhile eventually I will not even think about hanging it and the habit to not hang just goes and goes.

banned_crab

Jeffrey said:

So you have a fear of losing yourself. Maybe it would feel better if you did lose yourself? In some ways we just have to make a jump into the blender, though we also need to center ourselves. Awareness is indestructible (unless you don't believe in rebirth). I promise you your awareness won't disappear. I think I call delayed reflection 'habit energy'. It means you didn't choose it it is just a habit. So if I never hang a coat on a hook for awhile eventually I will not even think about hanging it and the habit to not hang just goes and goes.

Losing myself is just me never having mindfulness. Its as simple as me going back to the way I was. I dont want to lose myself because I know its not the answer, its backtracking. There is no blender only an old cracked mirror.

Sabre

Hi,

It sounds like you have aversion to yourself, to your thoughts and feelings. The solution to aversion is not mindfulness and certainly not more effort to get rid of this (that would be based on aversion again). Lots of people have this, so it's not just you.

But you have to realize one way or the other that meditation only works if you are kind to yourself. I'm actually a bit surprised nobody brought this up earlier, but what I think you should practice is metta meditation. That learns you to embrace yourself including all parts you don't really like for now.

Then, exactly because you can embrace things and not push them away all the time, you can start to transform them. But not before there is genuine kindness in the mind.

I'd suggest to start with some guided metta meditation to get the drift of it. Then start practicing it frequently. Here you can find some guided instructions:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=guided+metta&oq=guided+metta&gs_l=youtube.3..0l2.218958.221014.0.221128.16.13.2.0.0.0.142.1232.9j4.13.0...0.0...1ac.1.11.youtube.NeKwcZCM6U8

I personally like:

Gui

I think the problem is that you think your self that you protect is a concrete thing. It is a mistake to try and lose yourself because that self that you think you are is just that, what you think. If you methodically try to find that self, you will not find it. Yes, everything exists. But not as we think. There is only change. Why hold on to a dream? Why fight one dream with another dream? Being mindful is just being aware of the dream.

Zero

heyimacrab said:

...instead of enjoying this relaxation of meditation...

I believe my subconscious is the delayed reflection of my self...

it just seems like im stuck between 2 halves of myself...

You see at first I thought I was fighting a defeatable enemy, than it turned into what I judged as an invincible enemy ,until I finally realized that I was only fighting a ghost. A ghost that I create,a ghost that I constantly create, a ghost that we all create.
Are we all fighting?
Does the fighting ever stop?

Id like to know how some of you may have countered these formless yet endless encounters .

Enjoyment is a relative degree along the same scale as suffering.
I'm not saying that meditation shouldn't be relaxing or enjoyable but just that like life, it has its relaxing and enjoyable aspect and its not so relaxing and enjoyable aspect.

It seems to me that the source of your fight is the belief? I'm not however saying don't believe or what to believe.
It's a confusing belief from an outside perspective - I think I count 3 participants? You, the delayed reflection and the guy in the middle?
I suppose in this sense, when you say ghost, you mean hallucination - so are you trying to tell yourself to stop swinging your arms around because no-one is there to hit?
If so - then concentrate really hard on stopping swinging rather than considering what others are doing...

I say this because in response to your first question, I can't speak for the all but if I am not included then all-1 is not all and therefore because I am not fighting, I can report that we are all not fighting - if that helps?

As to your second question - in the same vein that you wish sincerely to know whether the fighting will stop, equally sincerely, from my point of view (without the shared belief) I want to know how the fighting could start in the first place?

seeker242

Always found this guys videos to be pretty good. He has a bunch of other ones too.

wrathfuldeity

"I have a problem" = I have an ego...the light side and the darkside are both the same thing...2 halves of the i-ego. Many, including myself, at first thought, I was going to die. It wasn't until I had my ego ripped apart and devoured a few times that I got the hang of it. For awhile it was a horrifying experience…I-ego thought it was going to die…and the I-ego did die…after awhile you get used to the process of dying…kind of go oh ya…actually it’s a rejuvenating experience…this is going to be fun and it becomes quite fun to be without I-ego...i.e., the gratefully dead. The i-ego death and rebirth is an interesting process. Then learning to operate without the i-ego is quite a blast…it’s the “b” state…just being.

Jeffrey

I endure real psychotic voices persecuting me. It is kind of like your ghost. They are created by me so neither side can win. I just have to take refuge and have confidence. I allow them to be there and I try to see them as empty voices that cannot be tricked.