Examples: Monday, today, last week, Mar 26, 3/26/04
Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@newbuddhist.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take up to 48 hours. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.

Confused about A-Rod

vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
I'm not a particular fan of baseball, but I do keep up with the news. Why is A-Rod getting more than double the punishment that the other players are getting? I thought it all revolved around the same issue.

Comments

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran
    It's a long story and only part of it is known right now, but ARod is getting (and he's lucky that is all he is getting, I think he should be banned entirely...) more punishment because he didn't just buy PEDs from the clinic. He obstructed the investigation by trying to obtain records from the clinic in order to destroy them, and he brought other clients to the clinic. They have reams of evidence on his links to the clinic over the past few years, and it's his further involvement and obstruction that caused him to get more of a ban than the others. I wish Selig had invoked the other part of the process that would not allow him to appeal and force him to accept the 211 games or get a lifetime ban, but apparently it wasn't specific enough for Selig to do that. I hate cheaters, especially when kids look up to them. Arod (and the rest) are a joke. On the plus side all of this should ensure that he not get a place in the Hall of Fame. And the other ones who were shown to be cheaters later should have their awards and such revoked just like Armstrong did.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    I guess that's what bothers me most...I think this is just the tip of the iceberg and that many...maybe even most major league baseball players are using the stuff. Or aren't they?
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran
    I really don't know. I wish they would just do testing a couple times a year, when they enter spring training and maybe during the all star break. It would just make it so much easier. I'm sure in some respects that it really is only the tip, the ones who got caught. I'm sure there are many more out there. I love baseball, and enjoy several other sports, but man it makes it hard to cheer for anyone. They ruin it, because the minute someone starts doing really well you start to wonder if they are cheating. And those people that just have amazing careers? Arod was one of them, are the rest like he is? Who knows. But being a fan does lose something when you never know if what you are seeing is really real or not.
  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran
    karasti said:

    It's a long story and only part of it is known right now, but ARod is getting (and he's lucky that is all he is getting, I think he should be banned entirely...) more punishment because he didn't just buy PEDs from the clinic. He obstructed the investigation by trying to obtain records from the clinic in order to destroy them, and he brought other clients to the clinic. They have reams of evidence on his links to the clinic over the past few years, and it's his further involvement and obstruction that caused him to get more of a ban than the others. I wish Selig had invoked the other part of the process that would not allow him to appeal and force him to accept the 211 games or get a lifetime ban, but apparently it wasn't specific enough for Selig to do that. I hate cheaters, especially when kids look up to them. Arod (and the rest) are a joke. On the plus side all of this should ensure that he not get a place in the Hall of Fame. And the other ones who were shown to be cheaters later should have their awards and such revoked just like Armstrong did.

    But sadly, it will have no lasting results.

    Punishing cheaters won't stop cheating. We have plenty of evidence to support that. As long as there are obscene amounts of money at stake - to players, teams and leagues - cheating will continue, because that's what drives the cheating.

    Expecting people like A-Rod to play nice when he's he's raking in 28 million a year is egregiously naive. Those millions are tied to specific performance metrics and to make that money he must perform. Superhuman paychecks come with superhuman stipulations and requirements.

    Tell me, what would you do to get a 28 million dollar payday?

    He'll still get his spot in the Hall of Fame. But besides, when you have a couple hundred million in the bank who cares if you make the HoF or not?
    vinlyn
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran
    I don't disagree, but at the same time many of those suspended now and in the past have been no-names that weren't making much beyond league minimum and were never going to. Granted I supposed if you think steroids will make you superman maybe then you think you'll make the big bucks but most of them have not. Several of them are already being told their contracts won't be renewed.
    I have doubts that Arod will get a spot in the hall of fame. Mark McGuire has not been voted in because of his drug admissions. In fact, he loses votes every year, so he's unlikely to ever get in despite his "achievements."
    I agree, there will always be cheaters. But I'm still a fan of finding them and punishing them.
    On another note, it's pretty amazing how much we see entertainers to be worth. Anything to distract us from our real lives and what is going on in them. I've been evaluating my entertainment areas for that reason. Entertainment has it's place, but most of us (Americans especially) seek entertainment all day long. On the way to work, at work, during dinner, at home, in bed, even while we sleep. What are we so afraid to face that we need entertaining 24/7? Apparently our lives are that shallow. Lady Gaga distracts me on the way to work, so sure, she's worth $80mm a year. All the internet forums and pirated video services can entertain me at work as long as my boss doesn't find out (not me, I don't work, just saying). When I get home, overpaid network newscasters get paid a fortune to tell me how scary and threatening the outside world is. Then I watch baseball on a tv that makes people rich, with a cable contract that makes someone else rich, and players and coaches and owners get rich while I watch. And the commercials that make me want to go out and buy stuff. Then at night I turn on the tv in the bedroom, too, and at night I put my ipod to go. Nonstop distraction for so many people. Baseball is a prime example.
  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran
    karasti said:


    I agree, there will always be cheaters. But I'm still a fan of finding them and punishing them.

    Well, you wont run out of punishments to entertain you.

    How convenient.


    karasti
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    So, Chaz, are you saying that cheating should be ignored, even though it hurts others?
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran
    My husband is a baseball nut, so for me there is no escape whether I follow it or not. He follows minor leagues, winter baseball leagues. Baseball is 12 months a year at our house. I'm pretty sure he talks about it in his sleep.

    Regardless of the sport, I think cheaters should be punished. Especially because kids look up to them so much. And because they are ripping off the fans that are paying their extraordinary salaries.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    I agree, Karasti, I think cheaters should be punished because they are, literally, stealing something away from other competitors.

    However, friends of mine who are "into" baseball tell me -- perhaps incorrectly, I don't know -- that the majority of big league players using performance enhancing drugs to some degree or another. Whether it's a majority or not, every player who uses them ought to be punished, or every player ought not to be punished. To select a dozen to set an example is what lawyers often refer to as being arbitrary and capricious...a solid basis for a law suit.

    The other complaint I have is -- and this is only what it seems like to me...perhaps I'm wrong -- that baseball has pretty much turned a blind eye to this for years and years (we a couple of exceptions), and now Selig (who has been in the job for 21 years) has suddenly decided to do something. When you turn that blind eye away from something, essentially you are condoning it.

    If you're going to punish players for that act, punish them all, equally, even if it means you have to shut down baseball for a year.
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran
    They didn't have a policy for a long time for it, as I understand it. I don't understand why they don't just do testing like the NFL does, instead of leaving it as a random thing. I have no doubt many of them use substances of some sort, though some are banned and some are not. Some players purchased items from the same clinic so they were on the radar but were cleared because what they purchased was not banned. Regardless, I doubt when someone who is a fan, no matter how big of a fan, claims to know that all or most of or whatever # of players are using. They are suspecting and assuming, they have actually no factual basis for their opinion, though. I don't know if they are right or wrong. I think it's safe to assume many more use than have been caught and punished so far. But I don't pretend to assume who uses and who doesn't. There are people who are just that talented as athletes, and with the advent of full time pro sports with the ability to afford year round elite training and diet information, that's a far cry from the baseball world Babe Ruth played in. But even then, when they had outside jobs and real lives, there were still exceptional athletes even then.

    So, I am sure basically all players of all sports use supplements of some sort. How many of them use substances banned by their sport, I don't have a clue. But I agree it's not fair to select a handful of high profile players just to set an example without being bothers to institute regular testing so that it is fair across the board. It makes one suspect that they don't do that because the # of players who would be suspended would make it hard to play the sport.
  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran
    vinlyn said:

    So, Chaz, are you saying that cheating should be ignored, even though it hurts others?

    yep. thats it...... exactly.

    seriously....in an historic context how has punishing cheaters reduced cheating?

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran
    It's not so much about reducing cheaters, but take arod for example, this hits him in the pocket pretty good considering how big his contract is. Will he stop cheating? Meh, I don't think it matters much in his case because by the time he returns to the field (assuming his appeal fails) he will be 40 anyhow. Might it make some of the high contract earners pause because they don't want to lose $30+MM? Maybe. So even though he won under false pretenses, cheating when others didn't cheat, we should let Armstrong hold onto his so-called achievements? When he probably wouldn't have won without cheating? What about people in the olympics who cheated and received medals, honors, sponsorships and all sorts of other deals as a result?

    It's not much different than the law, really. Do DUi laws keep people from drinking and driving? LOL obviously not. But for a lot (not all of course) it does give them reason to stop. Most of the people I know who had DUIs, stopped at one DUI. Obviously not all do, but if it stops a person, then it's worth it. It's a combination of hoping to stop others from doing the same stupid thing and punishing someone for doing it. Same with cheating, in essence.
  • aMattaMatt Veteran
    I think its helpful to examine the system they're a part of... their livelyhood is interwoven with their attainments because the money travels there. It would be nice if athletes were compensated for their heart (and fans spent more time with a holistic view of the athletes instead of statistical analysis/wins).

    If some men and women are put under enormous pressure, their morality crumbles. Isn't it odd how "the game" being compromised is more of the topic than Arod's suffering? A game vs our brother falling into unhealthy patterns, and we talk about the game?

    Its true I'm not a sports fan though. :)
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Chaz said:



    vinlyn said:

    So, Chaz, are you saying that cheating should be ignored, even though it hurts others?

    yep. thats it...... exactly.

    seriously....in an historic context how has punishing cheaters reduced cheating?

    Yes, you can reduce cheating. And the ones who don't think you can are probably the worst cheaters.

  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran
    vinlyn said:




    Yes, you can reduce cheating. And the ones who don't think you can are probably the worst cheaters.

    But that's not what I asked.

    I appreciate your sentiment that cheating can be reduced, but I'd still like your take on how, historically, how punishing cheaters for cheating as reduced cheating.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Chaz said:


    vinlyn said:




    Yes, you can reduce cheating. And the ones who don't think you can are probably the worst cheaters.

    But that's not what I asked.

    I appreciate your sentiment that cheating can be reduced, but I'd still like your take on how, historically, how punishing cheaters for cheating as reduced cheating.

    If you're talking about baseball, I don't know.

    But in my school we had a strict honor code, and my 20 years there we had little cheating, and not once a repeat offender.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran
    vinlyn said:



    Yes, you can reduce cheating. And the ones who don't think you can are probably the worst cheaters.

    If you're talking about baseball, I don't know.

    OK

    But look at other sports. Punishment does not reduce or deter cheating.
    But in my school we had a strict honor code, and my 20 years there we had little cheating, and not once a repeat offender.
    Nice, but an "honor system" is not punishment.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Chaz said:

    vinlyn said:



    Yes, you can reduce cheating. And the ones who don't think you can are probably the worst cheaters.

    If you're talking about baseball, I don't know.

    OK

    But look at other sports. Punishment does not reduce or deter cheating.
    But in my school we had a strict honor code, and my 20 years there we had little cheating, and not once a repeat offender.
    Nice, but an "honor system" is not punishment.


    Our "honor system" also involved giving "0" as a grade and possible suspensions from school or other penalties.

    Maybe it depends on how you are defining cheating, but if you went out to a car dealer, traded in your current car and bought a new car, and the next day found out the dealer had cheated you into the trade-in value and the actual cost of the new car,,,you'd just say, "Ah well, that's life. Punishing cheaters doesn't do any good." And you'd just take the loss?

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran
    How do you know it doesn't deter or reduce cheating? It doesn't *eliminate* cheating. But have you interviewed every athlete in every sport to determine that the rules regarding drugs and other banned substances haven't deterred them? Just because cheating still exists doesn't mean rule and consequences don't have a desired effect on some people.

    If they didn't, why have laws, or rules or anything in place, anywhere in society? Why expect children to follow rules? Whoops, they broke a rule so why bother having them at all?
    vinlyn
  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran
    karasti said:

    How do you know it doesn't deter or reduce cheating? It doesn't *eliminate* cheating. But have you interviewed every athlete in every sport to determine that the rules regarding drugs and other banned substances haven't deterred them? Just because cheating still exists doesn't mean rule and consequences don't have a desired effect on some people.

    Sure, some people.
    If they didn't, why have laws, or rules or anything in place, anywhere in society?
    Are laws or rules about cheating in sports intended to deter cheating or are they in place simply to punish people who are caught cheating? It seems to me that it's more of the latter and it should be about the former.
    Why expect children to follow rules?
    I dunno - I don't have children and don't concern myself with how others raise their's.

    It does occur to me that we, inadvertently, engender a mindset in our children that leads to cheating down the road. Much of our attitude towards sport in our society focuses on a win/loose paradigm where winning is, literally, everything. It's win, win, win and there's no such thing a second place - only a winner and a whole bunch of loosers. In our society a Looser is a Bad Thing. The myopic emphasis
    on winning evolves into winning at any cost and an attitude of the end justifies the means.
    Whoops, they broke a rule so why bother having them at all?
    But if rules aren't enforced, what the point of rules? Someone mentioned Lance Armstrong. He's an example of what happens when rules enforcement is lax or non-existence and when everyone is breaking rules, if your intent is to win, you have to keep up, so you cheat too. Armstrong's success wasn't because he was cheating. His success came from better preparation (including doping) and raw talent. In the case of A-Rod, his was, in my mind, a calculated risk. To a certain degree, his involvement on MLB was to make a pile of money. Better performance means a better paycheck and PEDs mean better performance. Sooner or later you'll get caught, but in A-Rod's case, he has so much banked, he can just retire - who cares if he's banned?

    On the other hand, if we're going to have rules about PEDs, lets enforce them and do so ruthlessly. Kick Dopers to the curb and test everyone before every event and practice. Penalize the team - they should know if their athletes are cheating and if they don't they are complicit. Go after sponsors, too. A sponsored athlete gets popped the sponsor is banned for as long as the athlete.

    We must also reconsider the perverse attention we give to sports and the value we place on it. We must train our children to be sportsmen and women and not into cash cows.
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran
    With the length of time drugs stay in the system and will show in hair follicle (many months) it's not even necessary to test every event. Every 60-90 days is enough, and I agree, they should be testing and they should be punishing anyone with a positive test. I totally agree they should be doing more. But until that point, I don't think it's ok to do nothing to those who are found guilty of what rules are in place.

    I have 3 kids, and they are all involved in sports on some level and I can tell you that none of the coaches or players encourage winning above all else. They encourage fair play and good sportsmanship above all else. About playing with class and respect, for yourself, for your team, for the other team, for coaches/others and the sport itself. So whatever levels kids are learning to cheat and win at all costs, I don't see it. Not in tball, baseball, track, cross country running, cross country skiing, hockey or football. I'm sure that varies by school and even by region (ie the cheerleader mom who killed so her kid could be on the squad). But that doesn't mean it's the norm. The pressure comes, as you say, when the money gets involved. But not everyone seems to lose themselves in it, so much that they'll deflate their morals and cheat to keep the money. And, sports are hardly the only place it happens. Just read an article tonight about a doctor who falsely diagnosed cancer in patients to get a bigger paycheck. So the money motivator happens even in places we shouldn't expect it. But. That doesn't mean that we don't punish those who break the rules. At least they have policies in place where 10 years ago they didn't.
Sign In or Register to comment.