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How to gain Faith in Rebirth?

TheEccentricTheEccentric South east, UK Veteran
As you probably already gathered I am having trouble believing in Rebirth as much as I want to believe as so much of my Practice involves its belief.

How do you banish doubt of it? Have you had a similair conflict to?
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Comments

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    It sounds like you are trying to force yourself to believe in it.

    Why?
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    Why ? seconded. What practice depends on belief in something you have no knowledge of ?
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    I'm open-minded about the topic. If something comes along that convinces me, that's fine. If not, that's fine, too.
    Bunks
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    @TheEccentric -- As noted above, don't push the river. Keep up a determined and patient practice. There is nothing saying you have to believe in rebirth. Trust your practice.

    On the intellectual/emotional front -- just for conversational purposes or belief purposes -- you might want to consider to what extent you credit the life-fact that everything changes. Everything changes all the time. And so, in the conversational or belief sense, you can easily imagine that the you of five minutes ago is not the current you. It's nothing sexy or religious ... it's just a fact: Everything changes. And perhaps it is in this conversational sense you might want to (but don't have to) credit the notion that in some sense you have been reborn ... second after second you are reborn. A brand-new you ... the same, but different.

    All that is just for conversational or belief purposes.

    What practice does is to take you out of the make-believe realm of believing. When experience begins to accord with what has been true all along, well, it's just experience ... and experience trumps belief every time.

    Just trust your practice. Believe what you like, but practice.
    riverflowVastmindkarmablues
  • Sounds like you're suffering from a form of cognitive dissonance. You can't force yourself to believe something, nor should you, you'll make yourself mentally ill.

    So you've got two choices, seek out someone to brainwash you into believing whatever they say. Or take a step back, look at what you do believe, what you're being told you should believe, what the difference is and why there is a difference. Usually there is a good reason why you don't believe something, understand that and move on from there.


    On the ruins of Borobudur there is a bas relief that describes one of Buddha's past lives. In it the Buddha is a turtle, while swimming he comes across a sinking fishing boat and calls out to the fishermen to climb on his back. He swims to shore, saving the fishermen's lives. In return they sit around the Buddha-Turtle and listen to several discourses of dharma teaching. Soon the group realises there is a problem, where they have landed has no source of food. So, the Buddha graciously allows the group to slaughter him and chow down on his turtley goodness.

    You could take this story as literal truth, I'm sure many believers do.
    You could reconcile the concept of a turtle saving peoples lives, after all dolphins are known to do it.
    You could even reconcile the turtle sacrificing himself, were you to believe the Buddha in his pre-enlightenment Boddhisattva form was so aware of his nature that he knew he was doing a wonderful thing for those sailors.

    Problem is, turtles have no vocal chords...
    lobster
  • TheEccentricTheEccentric South east, UK Veteran
    vinlyn said:

    It sounds like you are trying to force yourself to believe in it.

    Why?

    Because I feel it is neccesary for a Buddhist to believe in it as it is such a pillair of Buddhism.

    My main practice Lamrim has many many Meditations on Samsara and the wish to liberate yourself and others from it.
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    I assure you @TheEccentric I know lots of long time and committed Buddhists who meditate every day and do retreats and burn incense and observe fasting days and who don't give a monkey's about literal Rebirth one way or the other.
    Really.
  • TheEccentricTheEccentric South east, UK Veteran
    Citta said:

    I assure you @TheEccentric I know lots of long time and committed Buddhists who meditate every day and do retreats and burn incense and observe fasting days and who don't give a monkey's about literal Rebirth one way or the other.
    Really.

    How could a Buddhist reject rebirth even though the Buddha taught it? Surely the Enlightened one would know if it were real or not.
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    Well then become an Enlightened one and then tell us if it true.
    The Buddha according to the legends, went into the quest with an open mind. Not with a blueprint.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    Citta said:

    I assure you @TheEccentric I know lots of long time and committed Buddhists who meditate every day and do retreats and burn incense and observe fasting days and who don't give a monkey's about literal Rebirth one way or the other.
    Really.

    How could a Buddhist reject rebirth even though the Buddha taught it? Surely the Enlightened one would know if it were real or not.
    You are so black and white.

    It's not necessarily a question of believe or not believe. It might be a question about being open-minded about it. No one said to reject it. In fact, I think we're saying just relax about it.

    riverflowkarastikarmablues
  • TheEccentricTheEccentric South east, UK Veteran
    vinlyn said:

    Citta said:

    I assure you @TheEccentric I know lots of long time and committed Buddhists who meditate every day and do retreats and burn incense and observe fasting days and who don't give a monkey's about literal Rebirth one way or the other.
    Really.

    How could a Buddhist reject rebirth even though the Buddha taught it? Surely the Enlightened one would know if it were real or not.
    You are so black and white.

    It's not necessarily a question of believe or not believe. It might be a question about being open-minded about it. No one said to reject it. In fact, I think we're saying just relax about it.

    OK
  • Good advice has been given. Do what works. Ignore for now and if necessary for ever, or at least this life, what seems contrary . . . your experience and thinking process, you are still in early teens, will change.
    In the early stages we focus on what works, this is what provides impetus and confidence in the dharma. Everything is fine. :clap:
    Bunks
  • cazcaz Veteran

    As you probably already gathered I am having trouble believing in Rebirth as much as I want to believe as so much of my Practice involves its belief.

    How do you banish doubt of it? Have you had a similair conflict to?

    I used to have trouble to @TheEccentric I wondered how such a thing was possible but as I was taught by my teachers if you have trouble understanding something don't dwell on it too much but for the time being keep an open mind about it. My acceptance of Rebirth as true came through persistent study of Buddha's teachings their clarity and insight is not found anywhere else in the world everything else holds water so why not rebirth ? I always expect there are certain things my mind that I cannot perceive at current as Buddha's perception of Rebirth and the Interlinking chain of Samsara only came after persistent Deep meditation which enabled him to see various hidden phenomena, What really sealed the deal for me was studying the Heart Sutra and meditating upon Emptiness after a while I gained a small insight into the concept of Emptiness and this eliminated the biggest problem for me and will do for materialists alike, The notion that phenomena exist from their own side, Phenomena are often likened to dream like appearance in commentaries the Heart Sutra like New Heart of Wisdom, All this we experience is merely a appearance of the mind it has no existence outside of its mere appearance, Very similar to an actual dream where everything can seem very real, Where you can touch, Taste and interact with things and even persons through understanding they are simply appearances to mind you then have to analyze your concept of what is real ? As it turns out this experience we have now of the non dream world is also a mere appearance to mind the only difference being that the dream mind is a subtle mind and the waking world is an appearance to a gross mind.

    Having established this we can see a similar process of Rebirth occuring when we sleep and dream, In our dream world we are born into a dream body it can possess form with various characteristics or even be formless, The appearance of our surroundings can vary as well, Some people may dream they become a fish and for the entirety of that dream we cannot deny that this appearance is true, For if we are to deny the appearance to the subtle mind as false then we also have to do the same with the appearance to the gross mind. Now imagine that if we were to not wake up from this appearance of being a fish this would become our waking world ! Our Real world the world that appears to the mind for the duration of its Karma.

    Understanding Rebirth is as easy as understanding why you have the appearance you do now, The perpetual cycle of karma we create thrusts us into new experiences of being and they are all very similar in nature to dreams.

    One time I dreampt of being born into a place that was surrounded by fire where the experiences were dreadful and the beings who inhabited the place burnt and cried out in pain, Where horrendous beings pushed you toward a fiery chasm from which you could not pull your self back up. This was Hell or the mere appearance of one of the Hell realms at that time I asked myself what if I had not have woken up from that dream ?

    Rebirth is a mere experience of the mind and so are all other Phenomena.


    TheEccentricpoptartseeker242karmablues
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran

    As you probably already gathered I am having trouble believing in Rebirth as much as I want to believe as so much of my Practice involves its belief.

    How do you banish doubt of it?

    There's no helping it. If you already doubt it then not thinking about it won't help. And the more you investigate it the less you will believe, or rather you may come to understand it in a different way.
  • Well honestly I'm not to sure on the birth to death to rebirth idea.

    I'm open to it. It seems plausible considering there are animals, others in different circumstances than I, etc.

    One can take a very Eternalistic view on rebirth and examine horoscopes, connect dots where others don't see, etc.

    But I don't know. It seems like rebirth as an idea is just another way human beings make sense of the world around them.

    That is why I personally take the practical route. Rebirth for me is down to earth, everyday life. Its causality and working with conditions. So rebirth is the effect of karma.

    Karma in a pragmatic sense is perception and reaction or response.

    Generally we act impulsively based on previous experiences, etc. If we have a stressful day then that will carry on when we come home. We may act out and not really be present.

    But if we have a meditation practice we can sit and relax and let the stress work itself through the body and eventually release.

    So to me that process showcases how karma works. There is causality and conditions working. And the effects is the rebirth which is happening moment to moment in our lives.

    Now it gets complex because its not as linear. Causality is not from a to b but rather its coming from all directions. So you may have a cause that may not ripen unless there is a certain condition. So effects can occur and compound without time or space.

    Its something you start see in meditation practice and if you really observe how things are working and how conditions and causes work. Karma starts to make sense in light of rebirth. And rebirth in the moment to moment process makes a bit more sense too.

    Now the human birth and death and rebirth thing is a bit abstract and not tangible.

    But one can see how present causes and conditions propel one towards a future. Like for instance if I study then its very likely that I will do good on an exam. But thats just looking at one cause and one condition, sampling a small situation. Its not obvious that we can actually examine multiple conditions, multiple causes. This is why one can not study and still do well, and etc the various different outcomes. I hope that is clear and I hope I am not talking over anyone.

    So TLDR: One has to understand dependent origination and how karma relates to rebirth on the micro scale. Then the macro scale of birth, death and rebirth may be more plausible.

    But you're right in that Buddhadharma requires rebirth. Without it, it becomes a Nihilistic religion. Not to say that those who deny rebirth are Nihilistic, but these issues do need to resolve themselves. Because the Buddha did envision samsara and suffering to be countless lifetimes, not just one. And I don't think it was to scare us but rather to motivate us and to even truly make our present better and work and practice meditation to really help our future selves. Its a motivation thing.

    Hope this helps.
    karmabluescvalue
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    edited August 2013
    taiyaki said:

    Buddhadharma requires rebirth. Without it, it becomes a Nihilistic religion.

    :p The words nihilistic and religion should probably not be used together. I think they call it an oxymoron.

    So just Buddhism is nihilistic without belief in postmortem rebirth? What about other religions, are they all nihilistic? Is everything except belief in postmortem rebirth nihilistic?
    It's a motivation thing.
    Hows that working out?
  • Nevermind said:

    taiyaki said:

    Buddhadharma requires rebirth. Without it, it becomes a Nihilistic religion.

    :p The words nihilistic and religion should probably not be used together. I think they call it an oxymoron.

    So just Buddhism is nihilistic without belief in postmortem rebirth? What about other religions, are they all nihilistic? Is everything except belief in postmortem rebirth nihilistic?

    Actually people can fall into a Nihilistic view in the guise of Buddhism. So it happens and its been recorded and in fact the tradition has antidotes and warnings about it. For myself its always been three world views: Randomness (Nihilism), Eternalism (God) or Causality. We can have a mismatch of these, we can use what is useful when needed. Usually we don't even know what view we hold and maybe we don't even hold any of them. Haha.

    Well about your second question. Think about it. If causes had no effects. Then why eat healthy or exercise? I mean I do think a lot of people don't take causality seriously. People eat like shit and one day they have a stomache ulcer or feel depressed. Not to say there are direct correlations, nor am I in the position of a doctor to assert such things but it does make me wonder.

    And no its not that black and white, and that linear. Just because one denies rebirth it doesn't make them a Nihilist. Its not that simple. But I do think there are consequences for denying rebirth on a macro scale. But thats my personal opinion. I used the belief in macroscale rebirth to see how fortunate I am as a human being, to motivate myself to practice and make use of my fortunate circumstance. Not only that it gives a really good outlook to others, a compassionate one because you start to see how their suffering is a compound the the past seeds sowed. And its not to blame them, but rather to cultivate a compassionate heart by seeing dependent co-arising.

    And if I were to deny rebirth on a macroscale. Well then I would be all yogo swag, live only in the moment, fuck everyone else, I can do whatever I want without consequence.

    And thats just polarizing the issue. Ha there is much more grey in between. Nonetheless its something to consider or not, hey life is free that way.
    It's a motivation thing.
    Hows that working out?

    Its a great motivator. Not only does one become peaceful in the present, but because one is peaceful in the present that creates a cause for future peace. And future me deserves that.

    We all do.
    riverflowkarmablues
  • Rebirth is a belief system. Its a helpful way to view the world.

    One can see how their life circumstances are due to previous life circumstances.

    One can take this knowledge and decide to make a better life for oneself.

    Practice the dharma, study the dharma, be kinder to oneself and others.

    Just like when I was a Christian I believed in God, this helped me to be a better person.

    But replace God with Rebirth. Its working the same level. And that may kind of sound offensive but I find its true.

    Or pick science as a belief system. Science can definitely make one wonder, make on more compassionate, etc.

    Or not.

    I think one has to figure it out by oneself. No one here is going to convince anyone. We all have to walk, talk and find out for ourselves what works and what does and be open enough to evolve.

    That is all. Faith in rebirth isn't necessary.

    But as a Buddhist one at least must put their faith in causality/conditions and then actively engage and investigate through meditation and life if such constructs are worthy of following.

    Be it for present benefit or future benefit that is up to the individual. There is no black and white, you're a bad buddhist or good buddhist.

    What truly matters for any buddhist is suffering and the cessation of suffering. Everything is just wasting your time, imho.

    riverflowTheEccentric
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    If rebirth were just a belief system, I doubt that Buddhism would have mentioned it in the first place.
    Sabre
  • DaftChrisDaftChris Spiritually conflicted. Not of this world. Veteran
    edited August 2013
    If believing in rebirth isn't coming naturally to you, then why force yourself to believe in it?

    Many Buddhists don't believe in literal rebirth. I myself don't believe in literal karma.
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Veteran
    this is rhetorical, but what do you think does happen when we die? Are you set on what you believe, or open to other possibilities? One should, I think, always remain open to other possibilities.

    I think for a lot of people, the "what happens when I die?" is such a big question that causes stress and worry that for a person to get to the point they can even seriously study religion (or much else) they need to feel they have some sort of answer to that, even if the answer is "I'm not sure, but I'm open to learning more." Because having such a big question hanging over us tends to paralyze us, and we focus so much on our lack of an answer to that question that we can't see wisdom teachings for what they are.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    By gaining faith in the other things the Buddha taught. Things that are personally verifiable right here and now. Once you see that these things are actually true, over and over and over and over. It becomes pretty easy to just believe, and have faith, in everything he said.
    TheEccentricFloriankarmablues
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    taiyaki said:

    Just because one denies rebirth it doesn't make them a Nihilist.

    Oh good, we agree.

    Incidentally, I don't think any self-respecting nihilists would approve of you capitalizing the N in nihilist. :p
    It [rebirth] is a great motivator. Not only does one become peaceful in the present, but because one is peaceful in the present that creates a cause for future peace. And future me deserves that.

    We all do.
    I've seen a few unpeaceful arguments because of belief in postmortem rebirth. :-/
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    taiyaki said:

    Or pick science as a belief system.

    Not that it doesn't happen, but science as a belief system ceases to be science. Kinda like a nihilistic religion.
    lobster
  • zenffzenff Veteran


    How do you banish doubt of it? Have you had a similair conflict to?

    Inner conflicts are human. I have them and my theory says that most (maybe all) people, when they are honest and look a little deeper, have them.

    I think that we are meme copying machines. And like any copying machine we have no protection against conflicting content.
    And also our emotions and feelings don’t have such a barrier. Our brain is composed of different systems that can have different outcomes and we want / don’t want the same thing at the same time.

    My practice is to just allow that to be. The more I try to settle some inner conflict the more it grows.
    When I fight the conflict grows; when I don’t fight at all there is no conflict left; just different ideas and different feelings.

    Have some inner ahimsa. Be at peace with your doubts. Ultimately we don’t know anything at all.
    lobster
  • As you probably already gathered I am having trouble believing in Rebirth as much as I want to believe as so much of my Practice involves its belief.

    How do you banish doubt of it? Have you had a similair conflict to?

    Just relax about it. Belief in rebirth isn't a hard-and-fast requirement. As you deepen your practice, and gain insight from meditation, over time it may come to make more sense to you, or may come to seem more "real". IMO there are more important things in Buddhism, like practicing kindness toward others, resolving one's ego-attachments, and ridding oneself of defilements. All in good time. Take the long view; Dharma practice is a life-long project. One step at a time.

    TheEccentricpoptartriverflow
  • TheswingisyellowTheswingisyellow Trying to be open to existence Samsara Veteran
    What I experience I know, rebirth is not one of those things.
    See what's in front of you, that's where life lies.
    The rest is pie in the sky and wishful thinking.
  • Rebirth and karma are the two features of Buddhism which seem to attract a lot of attention and controversy, yet in day to day practice they are hardly worth thinking about. I like @Kaz's analogy with dreaming - that is a useful way to think of this life. Live fully in this moment, here and now, and don't worry about the larger concepts. When the time is ripe you will know what to believe.
    vinlynCitta
  • SpinyNormanSpinyNorman It's still all old bollocks Veteran
    edited August 2013

    My main practice Lamrim has many many Meditations on Samsara and the wish to liberate yourself and others from it.

    Yes, rebirth is quite central to Lamrim practice. Are you finding that doubts are getting in the way of this practice?
  • SpinyNormanSpinyNorman It's still all old bollocks Veteran
    Citta said:

    I assure you @TheEccentric I know lots of long time and committed Buddhists who meditate every day and do retreats and burn incense and observe fasting days and who don't give a monkey's about literal Rebirth one way or the other.
    Really.

    But clearly it is important for the OP.
  • misterCopemisterCope PA, USA Veteran
    Every mistake is a rebirth.
    riverflowOmar067blu3ree
  • CittaCitta Veteran

    Citta said:

    I assure you @TheEccentric I know lots of long time and committed Buddhists who meditate every day and do retreats and burn incense and observe fasting days and who don't give a monkey's about literal Rebirth one way or the other.
    Really.

    But clearly it is important for the OP.
    Then perhaps a different perspective would be useful to him.
  • SabreSabre Veteran
    edited August 2013
    Hi,

    The advice that is already given I think is good - keep open minded about it and don't force a belief. You can also take rebirth as true as an intellectual assumption and work from there. Nothing much can go wrong.

    But I understand your confusion, because then again, the understanding of rebirth is a part of right view, so it is also not something to fully neglect. Contemplating dependent origination -the process of rebirth- I think is important. But then again, even if you contemplate it for years, it won't be convincing in itself.

    What will be more convincing is recalling previous lives. Some people have this happen naturally, and some have it as a result of meditation, either intentionally or unintentionally. If you are interested in it, I think it's best to find a teacher that can tell you how to do it and support in the process. But not everybody can do it, so don't point all your arrows at it.

    In the end, the way is to practice the 8-fold path, nothing more, nothing less.


    With metta,
    Sabre
  • TheEccentricTheEccentric South east, UK Veteran
    Sabre said:

    Hi,

    The advice that is already given I think is good - keep open minded about it and don't force a belief. You can also take rebirth as true as an intellectual assumption and work from there. Nothing much can go wrong.

    But I understand your confusion, because then again, the understanding of rebirth is a part of right view, so it is also not something to fully neglect. Contemplating dependent origination -the process of rebirth- I think is important. But then again, even if you contemplate it for years, it won't be convincing in itself.

    What will be more convincing is recalling previous lives. Some people have this happen naturally, and some have it as a result of meditation, either intentionally or unintentionally. If you are interested in it, I think it's best to find a teacher that can tell you how to do it and support in the process. But not everybody can do it, so don't point all your arrows at it.

    In the end, the way is to practice the 8-fold path, nothing more, nothing less.


    With metta,
    Sabre

    We don't do the eightfold path in then tradition that I follow.
  • DavidDavid some guy The Hammer in Ontario, Canada, eh Veteran
    Before I understood the difference between reincarnation and rebirth I didn't see cause to believe either. Now I still reserve judgement on reincarnation as it seems to negate non-separation without a Brahmic relationship (Brahman to Vishnu and Vishnu to Krishna except we are all like Krishna).

    Rebirth seems to make sense to me and it cuts out the middle man (that which would otherwise reincarnate). Like @TheEccentric, I had a hard time believing in rebirth because to me, it seemed like well meaning but wishful fluff. It didn't seem to have any bearing on the problem at hand which is our collective suffering. So I let it go.

    It came back like a boomerang though. Some of my current belief in rebirth could come from a "feel good, fluffy" place (We are one, let's explore together) but it's also the only way I can explain instinct.
  • DavidDavid some guy The Hammer in Ontario, Canada, eh Veteran
    edited August 2013

    Sabre said:

    Hi,

    The advice that is already given I think is good - keep open minded about it and don't force a belief. You can also take rebirth as true as an intellectual assumption and work from there. Nothing much can go wrong.

    But I understand your confusion, because then again, the understanding of rebirth is a part of right view, so it is also not something to fully neglect. Contemplating dependent origination -the process of rebirth- I think is important. But then again, even if you contemplate it for years, it won't be convincing in itself.

    What will be more convincing is recalling previous lives. Some people have this happen naturally, and some have it as a result of meditation, either intentionally or unintentionally. If you are interested in it, I think it's best to find a teacher that can tell you how to do it and support in the process. But not everybody can do it, so don't point all your arrows at it.

    In the end, the way is to practice the 8-fold path, nothing more, nothing less.


    With metta,
    Sabre

    We don't do the eightfold path in then tradition that I follow.
    I hope you don't mind me butting in but I'm kind of nosey sometimes (I get it from my sisters)... Do you then recognize the 4 noble truths?

    @Sabre, I think I may have had past life recall in dreams but they could have just been dreams. Very strange and convincing though.

    Not as "my" past life, just "a" past life.

  • As you probably already gathered I am having trouble believing in Rebirth as much as I want to believe as so much of my Practice involves its belief.

    How do you banish doubt of it? Have you had a similair conflict to?

    Okay, got it. What information do you have that amounts to incontrovertible proof that rebirth is impossible?

  • You could read up on reincarnation and near death experiences.

    This book has been mentioned on NB:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty_Cases_Suggestive_of_Reincarnation

    This is a website of a cardiologist who has studied near death experiences over a period of 20 years:
    http://www.pimvanlommel.nl/home_eng
  • I suggest not worrying about it @TheEccentric

    Beliefs are optional.

    As the 4 Noble Truths tell us,suffering is caused by attachment. By wanting this life, this moment, to be other than what it is. Notice all your attachment is centered around an imaginary you, this self. Seen as such, rebirth of this self is not such a great thing. Yet it happens. Part of practice to see this process as a process and let it go. Freedom from cyclic existence is no more clinging to the idea of you that causes your rebirth. Till then practice by meditating. Learn to see impermanence in everything that arises. Gain peace in knowing that the way you come to experience this present moment is through dependent origination.

    Best Wishes
    lobster
  • I suggest not worrying about it @TheEccentric

    Beliefs are optional.

    As the 4 Noble Truths tell us,suffering is caused by attachment. By wanting this life, this moment, to be other than what it is. Notice all your attachment is centered around an imaginary you, this self. Seen as such, rebirth of this self is not such a great thing. Yet it happens. Part of practice to see this process as a process and let it go. Freedom from cyclic existence is no more clinging to the idea of you that causes your rebirth. Till then practice by meditating. Learn to see impermanence in everything that arises. Gain peace in knowing that the way you come to experience this present moment is through dependent origination.

    Best Wishes

    The first noble truth of suffering is the five khandhas or aggregates SN 56:13. The second is the cause of suffering which is desire, indulgence, inclination, and holding based on these five aggregates affected by clinging MN 28. We, as consciousness, got entangled in the aggregates (nama-rupa) during conception because of volition or samskâra which depends on avidya. Avidya is our inability to distinguish between the conditioned (samsara) and the unconditioned (nirvana). If we intuit the unconditioned, we are home free. Sweet!

  • SabreSabre Veteran


    We don't do the eightfold path in then tradition that I follow.

    Perhaps under a different name?

    Buddhism without eightfold path seems a bit strange to me.

  • SpinyNormanSpinyNorman It's still all old bollocks Veteran
    Sabre said:


    We don't do the eightfold path in then tradition that I follow.

    Perhaps under a different name?
    Buddhism without eightfold path seems a bit strange to me.
    Quite a number of traditions don't use the 8-fold path, but I think it's true to say they all have a path.
  • SpinyNormanSpinyNorman It's still all old bollocks Veteran


    Beliefs are optional.

    Sure, but in some traditions rebirth is more central to practice, in which doubts can undermine practice. In that situation it's possible that a different approach to practice might be called for.
  • TheEccentricTheEccentric South east, UK Veteran
    Sabre said:


    We don't do the eightfold path in then tradition that I follow.

    Perhaps under a different name?

    Buddhism without eightfold path seems a bit strange to me.

    We do have the same message it has like right view, effort, mindfulness etc but as we are Mahayana we do not teach it directly.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    Does Rebirth Make Sense?
    by
    Bhikkhu Bodhi


    Pretty good article! He's a very "pro-literal rebirth" writer. People who really don't want to believe in it? Probably better to not read his stuff. :)
    Sabre said:


    We don't do the eightfold path in then tradition that I follow.

    Perhaps under a different name?

    Buddhism without eightfold path seems a bit strange to me.

    I think you could say the different name is the "Six Paramitas" as it's very similar to the 8FP. :)

    karmablues
  • SabreSabre Veteran
    edited August 2013

    Sabre said:


    We don't do the eightfold path in then tradition that I follow.

    Perhaps under a different name?

    Buddhism without eightfold path seems a bit strange to me.

    We do have the same message it has like right view, effort, mindfulness etc but as we are Mahayana we do not teach it directly.
    Oh, but then it's the same thing. The eightfold path is just one way to put the practice into sections. There are plenty of other ways to do it that all come down to the same thing. It's just that the eightfold path I thought was common in all traditions, but it appears not.

    But what I wanted to say with that is that practice (whether we call it 8-fold path or other system) will lead to more faith. Reading articles and pondering things won't necessarily do this as effectively. If you gain more insight into what the Buddha taught by replicating it, it also becomes more acceptable that he was right on other things that you don't yet understand. For example, seeing the implications of karma on a day to day basis, gives an idea that it could go beyond one life.

    Metta,
    Sabre
    TheEccentrickarmablues
  • zenffzenff Veteran
    seeker242 said:

    Does Rebirth Make Sense?
    by
    Bhikkhu Bodhi


    Pretty good article! He's a very "pro-literal rebirth" writer. People who really don't want to believe in it? Probably better to not read his stuff. :)

    No problem. He only argues that he likes the idea of literal rebirth.
    In this essay I won't be arguing the case for the scientific validity of rebirth. Instead, I wish to show that the idea of rebirth makes sense.
    "Literal" rebirth suggests rebirth is a scientificaly valid idea. This article is irrelevant.

    That the world is flat makes an awful lot of sense. But it could be interesting to ask about the scientific validity of the idea..
  • zenffzenff Veteran
    Sabre said:

    If you gain more insight into what the Buddha taught by replicating it, it also becomes more acceptable that he was right on other things that you don't yet understand. For example, seeing the implications of karma on a day to day basis, gives an idea that it could go beyond one life.

    If someone is right about five things he will probably be right about six.
    That’s not necessarily true.
    If someone understands psychological mechanisms on a day-to-day basis, that’s no guarantee he understands what happens after death.
    It’s a different category of knowledge.

    If someone is trying to deceive you (I’m not talking about the Buddha here) he may use this. He will be reliable on a number of occasions and when you trust him enough he will take your money and run.
    vinlynCitta
  • SpinyNormanSpinyNorman It's still all old bollocks Veteran
    zenff said:


    "Literal" rebirth suggests rebirth is a scientificaly valid idea.

    No, it's just to distinguish post-mortem rebirth from "moment-to-moment" rebirth.

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