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Dealing with kids

I am a father of 2. I have been a practicing buddhist for a little over 5 years. My 6 year old daughter does NOT listen to anything, EVER!!! She lies to me, she tries to steal things from the store (we buy her plenty of stuff), she tells my wife and myself that she hates us, she tries to hit and bite and scratch my wife (for some reason not me) and she is always mean to her 2-year old brother. She throws extreme fits about everything. As soon as something doesn't go her way or she's told no, she throws herself on the floor and screams and cries, and will not calm down or listen to reason at all. I have tried everything, talked to Montessori teachers, Non-violent communications workshops, we even tried counselling (complete joke and not helpful at all), and nothing seems to make a difference. I was not beaten, or abused as a child, but I was spanked and disciplined relatively harshly when I acted out or threw fits (although I never threw fits like my daughter does, I even asked my parents if I was just forgetting these.). Is it buddhist to spank your children lol? I don't know what to do here, and I feel like I don't want her to think that we're mean and awful people, but I feel like trying to just be kind and compassionate all the time is, if anything hurting the situation and making her feel like she can do whatever she wants. I do put my foot down with things, but it typically ruins the whole day when that happens; she will scream and cry and say terrible things, and just be all around grouchy for the entire rest of the day. HELP!!!! PLEASE!!!! I don't know how to handle this the buddhist "right" way.

Comments

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Well, the first thing you have to do is figure out what went wrong in the last 6 years. Then you'll have a place to start from/
  • Because that's helpful. Maybe nothing went wrong? She has been in a loving home environment with both biological parents present, no day care, we pay plenty of attention to her. She eats healthy, has loving grandparents, friends to play with, has been in only Montessori schools, and has parents that are dedicated to her well-being. I don't think anything "went wrong" per se, I'm just wondering how to deal with this reality in a "Buddhist" fashion.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Well, something went wrong since her behavior is not within the norm.

    Is she truly mean-spirited, or spoiled?

    Personally, I don't think setting definitive boundaries about behavior has anything to do with Buddhism, either for or against.

    And I am not opposed to an occasional spanking, if done for the right reason and with the right intensity. If done to inflict pain, then I would say it would be against the Precepts.

    I'll be interested to see other responses. I'm not sure there is one answer, or even a right answer.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Diet?
    Allergies?
    Food intolerance?
    hearing difficulties? (Deafness? hyperacusis?)
    Behavioural disorder?
    it may not be anything you have done or haven't done....

    ThinGentlementReborn
  • I guess the thing is this, I know that she is her own person with her own karma. But I (we) have chosen to take on the role of her parents/guardian, and I feel like allowing too much of that type of behavior because we don't want to deal with it would not be in the best interests of everyone involved, and therefore against the precepts. Especially because if we allow her to act this way in our care, we are setting her up for a rude awakening when she joins the adult/working world, and I wouldn't feel like I'd done right by her preparing her for that. On the other hand, I don't want to scar her by being too strict and on her all the time, I've found myself beginning to yell a few times, and I immediately stop talking and collect myself when that happens, but then I feel like if I lay off, I'm not helping the situation, and just re-enforcing her behavior. She is a sweet girl when she wants to be, and I know her heart is full of love. So I don't think she is truly mean-spirited, just out of control with her emotions. Is this something that we can (as NVC suggests) more or less ignore in favor of positive re-enforcement and she will grow out of these behaviors and leave them behind? She behaves herself perfectly at school, this is just when she's with us, and she's gotten worse since school let out for summer. If anyone has gone through something similar with their children, I'd love to hear about how you dealt with it, and what the outcome was/is. Thank you for the info so far, we did do an allergy test, she eats healthy, her hearing tested out fine at school. And I believe that behavioral disorders are cop-out for not dealing with your emotions properly (no offense).
    Jeffrey
  • NirvanaNirvana aka BUBBA   `     `   South Carolina, USA Veteran
    edited August 2013
    Sounds like a manipulative little kid.

    It seems to me that she needs her support system undermined. Give her the silent treatment. Ignore her and withdraw all tokens of affection for a while. Make her feel unvalued and unloved without overtly saying so. It may be that she needs to start growing up and realize that the world does not revolve around her. Maybe she's been over indulged?

    Just walk away when you can. She's not suffering, she's only putting on a show. Let her entertain herself but not you (I am using the word "entertain" in a general way here.).



    .???.
    buddhakaicarolann
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Child psychology will indeed tell you to 'ignore poor behaviour' and encourage/praise the good.

    Refraining from yelling at her, and maintaining a peaceful stance, is all very well, but if it ain't working, then it's not worth diddly-squat.

    She reads it as you being placid and not reacting.

    When she misbehaves, do not react angrily.
    merely pick her up and remove her from the room and put her in the hall, (or somewhere isolated but where you can still 'keep an eye on her' on a chair, as her "quiet place".

    Note this, and note this well: in order to make her stay there for the alloted time, you may have to keep putting her on this chair for a good, long period of time.

    I know some parents who calmly, but firmly insisted for OVER AN HOUR until the child finally - FINALLY!! - remained in the chair until called.

    Parents have different techniques.
    But when a technique you have exercised for a long time has proven ineffective, then it's time to change the technique, and find a new method.

    She may be willful - but you need to be stronger than she is, and contain her tantrums, in such a way so as she may not hurt herself, but she realises it's unacceptable, and that she will be ostracised until she learns her behaviour is anti-social and counter-productive.

    Also, inform the school about this.
    Ask them for advice.
    She may well be the little Angel there, but I bet they have other kids who play them up.What is their policy//course of action with them?
    buddhakaiperson
  • So me feeling like making her feel unloved and unvalued is mean, is just me being an over-protective daddy here? I see the value in that approach and definitely appreciate your advice. Especially the part about the world not revolving around her, I could see how she would draw that conclusion. I think I will try applying this method lightly, and see how it makes my wife and I feel. Thank you all for your advice, I will be checking this often, as you can tell :-)
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    making her feel unloved and unvalued' is your perception, not hers.
    her perception will be that certain behaviour elicits praise, other behaviour elicits being ostracised.
    Incidentally, this is a tried, tested and proven method when dealing with wilful, obstinate and 'dominant' dogs and horses.
    It's text-book behaviour modification, and is also practised by primate/simian groups with young who over-step the line.
    It's perfectly okay, and works.

    "You misbehave, you'll be separated, ignored and put aside until you understand that level of behaviour is not acceptable or social.
    When you integrate, join in amicably and behave in a polite and social manner, you can 'come back in' and you'll be praised for good behaviour to high heaven!!"
    MaryAnne
  • buddhakai said:

    She behaves herself perfectly at school, this is just when she's with us, and she's gotten worse since school let out for summer.

    I suspect this is to do with boundaries, since she is fine at school. Could you be giving her mixed messages? Are you consistent in your treatment of her? Do you allow her to do things one day, and not the next? If this is the problem you may need to be firmer and stick to your rules whatever she does. It may be tough at first but it is the only way to lay down the law and the firmer you are the quicker you will solve the problem.

    I'm also wondering if this is attention seeking behaviour. Do you pay much attention to her when she is quiet and well behaved? She may have learned the way to get your attention is to play up.

    vinlynKundoMaryAnne
  • Thank you poptart. We are very consistant, the trouble is it doesn't really seem to make a difference. And we've tried (in opposition to NVC) to only allow things like amusement parks, trips to the ice cream parlor or chuck-e-cheeze after a week of good behavior. This doen't happen often. I've also tried to explain to her, that if she can just do as our parent roles require her to, we can get that part out of the way and just be more like her friends, but if she can't obey us, then we have to put on the mom and dad hats. She seems to understand that, but won't take advantage of it. I just feel like I'm losing the battle here.
  • What worked on my kids was just being calm, quiet, and removing their audience. If at home, I'd simply leave the room, or tell them to take their tantrum somewhere else because we did not want to hear it. No emotion, no pleading for them to stop, bribing or anything else. They wanted the attention which once they weren't getting, tantrums stopped. Same with back-talk; that earned them a short sentence in their rooms until they were ready to be respectful.

    But whatever you do, you have to be consistent and both parents need to be on board. If one parent always gives in to the tantrum, they just learn they can get their way by acting out to that parent. You both have to be willing to put your foot down no matter how much she resists. Remember, you're her parent, not her friend. It's your job to teach her, whether that makes her grumpy or not. She needs your guidance.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    federica said:

    Child psychology will indeed tell you to 'ignore poor behaviour' and encourage/praise the good.

    Refraining from yelling at her, and maintaining a peaceful stance, is all very well, but if it ain't working, then it's not worth diddly-squat.

    She reads it as you being placid and not reacting.

    When she misbehaves, do not react angrily.
    merely pick her up and remove her from the room and put her in the hall, (or somewhere isolated but where you can still 'keep an eye on her' on a chair, as her "quiet place".

    Note this, and note this well: in order to make her stay there for the alloted time, you may have to keep putting her on this chair for a good, long period of time.

    I know some parents who calmly, but firmly insisted for OVER AN HOUR until the child finally - FINALLY!! - remained in the chair until called.

    Parents have different techniques.
    But when a technique you have exercised for a long time has proven ineffective, then it's time to change the technique, and find a new method.

    She may be willful - but you need to be stronger than she is, and contain her tantrums, in such a way so as she may not hurt herself, but she realises it's unacceptable, and that she will be ostracised until she learns her behaviour is anti-social and counter-productive.

    Also, inform the school about this.
    Ask them for advice.
    She may well be the little Angel there, but I bet they have other kids who play them up.What is their policy//course of action with them?

    Good advice from Federica...but...make sure the time-out is really time-out. I know one couple who sends their daughter to time-out in her bedroom...where there is t.v., stereo, video games, etc. That's not time-out.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    buddhakai said:

    ...I've also tried to explain to her, that if she can just do as our parent roles require her to, we can get that part out of the way and just be more like her friends, but if she can't obey us, then we have to put on the mom and dad hats...

    You ARE her mom and dad.

    federicapoptart
  • @vinlyn I agree. I'm kinda confused here.

    @buddhakai I don't understand why you say this "But I (we) have chosen to take on the role of her parents/guardian". Other things that I've read that you've posted, makes me think that you're NOT her blood parents. Was she born into your family, or did you adopt?
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    You don't wear 'different hats'. You have to always be figures of authority to her.
    You cannot be different things to her until she has the discerning logic to be able to differentiate FOR HERSELF what roles people fill.
    You are her mother and father.
    Your moods may change, your attitudes may vary. Who you are to her, has to be a constant.
    vinlynKundopoptart
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    How does she behave at school?
    Just because we give birth to children, doesn't mean we're given children we know how to parent. It's a long road. I have a difficult child myself. Rinse, repeat, over and over and over again with consequences and such.

    You said that you buy her stuff, but do you really know what her *needs* are? You listed all the things she has, and they sound great, but that doesn't mean those things are meeting her needs. It could be any variety of things causing the problem, and you can only start with one at a time. It could be an actual psychological disorder, it could be diet like someone else said (diet can have a HUGE influence on kids behavior) it could be that she is that out of touch with her emotions and needs a lot of direction into identifying her feeling and finding appropriate ways to cope with them. It could be that she really needs her parents to discipline a certain way and they haven't gotten to it yet.

    But in all honestly, spanking might work, and it has for some kids. However, in trying it,
    What have you tried, as far as discipline so far? Do you use time outs? Are you 100% consistent? Or do you threaten a time out and not follow through? Are you one of the parents who counts to 3, but says "1....2....look out!!" and doens't ever get to 3? I'm not saying you ARE, just noting what I see in other parents who have problems with kids who don't listen.

    In a way, I can sympathize. I have a son who is almost 11 who breaks the rules consistently. To the point I think he is happier being grounded than not, and I'm trying to figure out why that is. She is getting something out of the tantrums, and with kids it's often a particular kind of attention they are after and don't even know it, and it comes out in tantrums. They are also big in kids who can't identify feelings and share them and know how to communicate them properly. Do you and your wife spend one n one time with her alone? Does the little one get more attention? Has she always had tantrums or did they start after the brother came along? Maybe she would benefit from one on one time with both her mom and dad (her and dad, then her and mom). Without the brother with. Without always having to share.

    You can only experiment and see what works, but you have to be 100% consistent and on the same page as mom for 2-3 weeks before you can determine if something is working or not. She doesn't like feeling out of control any more than you like that she is. But it's up to you to help her figure out why, and she's not going to have the ability to dig deeper into herself to figure it out. Instead of buying her stuff, have her earn it. Put a jar on the counter and for every day she doesn't have a tantrum, give her a dollar (or whatever) and tell her when she saves $10 she can go buy something.

    As for spanking, I say no. We were spanked, I faired fine, it was rare because I was a good kid. But my sister, at 34, still has a poor relationship with my dad because he spanked. She was what was perceived as a bratty child when in fact she had a lot of emotional upheaval going on when she was young that didn't come out until later, and when my parents didn't know what to do, they spanked, and it not only didn't help, it made things worse, for her and for their relationship. It's not worth it.
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    @buddhakai -- My three kids are now pretty much grown, but I can still remember the times when this small video made very good sense and I would be at my wits' end.

    One thing that crosses my mind is this: Don't bring Buddhism into it. There may be plenty of good principles in Buddhism, but forcing it on a concrete, in-your-face situation tends to confuse more than defuse ... esp. when it comes to child-rearing. The child is the point ... and the parent's sanity. Given the level of stress and acting out, my thoughts run to some sort of psychological approach ... some counselor or psychologist of some sort.
    Kundo
  • MaryAnneMaryAnne Veteran
    edited August 2013
    @buddhakai, you said in part: " we even tried counselling (complete joke and not helpful at all), and nothing seems to make a difference. "

    There are several reasons why counseling and/or more formal psychological therapy "doesn't work"- one reason is because it is not being approached as a "family problem" but only as a "child problem". It's RARELY a child problem alone.

    Another reason therapy often is said to "not help at all" is because parents approach the sessions as a means to validate their parenting skills, (again assuming it's only a child problem), when in fact, they really don't want to admit that their current parenting skills aren't working; it's time for a NEW method of parenting.

    Also parents need to come into therapy with a huge amount of patience. Cool, calm, collected PATIENCE.
    It takes time for any decent therapist to wind their way (gently) through the bullshit, frankly, and get to the heart of the problems.
    Nearly all kids clam up - some for a long time- before revealing the root of behavior issues. Most times parents are heavily into denial and it takes a lot of talk, thinking and more talk to push aside that denial and find the RIGHT avenues and questions to explore...

    Also you and your spouse should ALWAYS be wearing "your parent hats". This cannot be stressed enough!
    Kids don't need more 'BFFs' or part-time parents / part-time playmates. Kids need Parents ALL the time. Happy parents, playful parents, responsible parents -- but absolutely consistently PARENTS.

    I would try a family therapist (again) but this time be ready for several months of appointments before expecting any real insights.... although who knows, may happen sooner if you go with open minds and true parenting goals in mind as well! Good Luck!

    genkakufederica
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Excellent post, MaryAnne.

    I might just add another reason counseling sometimes doesn't work -- a poor match between counselor and family. That doesn't mean it's a bad counselor. Over the years at our school we would sometimes recommend counseling. Sometimes things wouldn't go well and we would suggest a different counselor...and things would work out pretty well.
  • vinlyn said:

    Excellent post, MaryAnne.

    I might just add another reason counseling sometimes doesn't work -- a poor match between counselor and family. That doesn't mean it's a bad counselor. Over the years at our school we would sometimes recommend counseling. Sometimes things wouldn't go well and we would suggest a different counselor...and things would work out pretty well.

    Absolutely true @vinlyn.
    Choosing the 'right' counselor/therapist is important. If after a few sessions things just aren't clicking between parents and therapist, they should consider seeking out another. However, I think you'd agree- if as a parent one finds they are going through therapists like some people go through a box of chocolates.... it's time to realize where the problem really lies- with the parent/s. ;-)

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    MaryAnne said:

    vinlyn said:

    Excellent post, MaryAnne.

    I might just add another reason counseling sometimes doesn't work -- a poor match between counselor and family. That doesn't mean it's a bad counselor. Over the years at our school we would sometimes recommend counseling. Sometimes things wouldn't go well and we would suggest a different counselor...and things would work out pretty well.

    Absolutely true @vinlyn.
    Choosing the 'right' counselor/therapist is important. If after a few sessions things just aren't clicking between parents and therapist, they should consider seeking out another. However, I think you'd agree- if as a parent one finds they are going through therapists like some people go through a box of chocolates.... it's time to realize where the problem really lies- with the parent/s. ;-)

    Absolutely. In fact, we often found that preconceptions by parents ruined a lot of counseling sessions. Let's face it, most parents mean well, and most do well. But when things aren't going right, few can easily face that they may very well be the problem.

  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    I agree that problems can erupt on both sides of the therapy desk.

    My younger son, who was having difficulty for a while, went to one counselor for several sessions. The guy was not the first choice but a previous counselor had retired.

    After three sessions with the new guy, I picked my son up one day and asked him how things had gone. I wasn't trying to intrude, just giving him the opportunity to sound off. We were driving home in the car, chatting amiably, when my son informed me that the counselor had asked him, mid-session, whether my son trusted him. When my son didn't promptly reply in the affirmative, the counselor told him that he should trust him. I slammed on the brakes, turned the car around, drove back to the counselor's office and told him my son would not be coming back. I was a good little Buddhist and did not utter a single one of the enraged profanities coursing though my mind. But I wondered seriously if there were a Better Business Bureau to whom I could report the guy.

    Most therapists I have known were all a little bit crazy ... it was part of what made them (when they were) good therapists. But there is crazy and then there is crazy ... and which is which may take some shopping around.
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    It can definitely take a while. Depending on the root cause of the issue, it can be a looong time to work through. In my son's case, the issues mostly stemmed from problems relating to spending time with his father...who has since died. So we are working through all his trust issues from his father, without his father being here to help deal with it. We've been going to family counseling (as a family, and him alone as well) for almost 5 years. And we're still working through it. In my sister's case, she had a lot of problems growing up and a lot of it was her realizing at an early age (5 or so) that she was different, and it wasn't until she was around 11 or so that she realized she was gay. So, you never know what is causing upheaval in your child's life and as much as it's frustrating for you, be sure to always treat your children with compassion and work with them, never give up. It will have an impact. It's unlikely that she'll be 12 years old and still throwing tantrums. But if you don't get to the root of the cause of the feelings she has, she could act out in other ways by that age.
    MaryAnne
  • KundoKundo Sydney, Australia Veteran
    But whatever you do, you have to be consistent and both parents need to be on board. If one parent always gives in to the tantrum, they just learn they can get their way by acting out to that parent. You both have to be willing to put your foot down no matter how much she resists. Remember, you're her parent, not her friend. It's your job to teach her, whether that makes her grumpy or not. She needs your guidance
    Absolutely. I'm going to go against the grain here - I am pro spanking. Saying that, I only ever spanked my daughter 4 times in her life (she'll be 12 next month) and she can tell you why and what she did to deserve it. I instigated the rule of three warnings and then a smack (which was a light swat with an open hand across her backside through clothing. Which was hardly felt). For her, the wake up moment was more of "OMG you smacked me", rather than "OMG that hurt". Even now, if we're out and she gives me lip, I just start with a stern "One!" and no matter where she is she stops what she's doing and goes "ok ok two. I get it" and things get back to where they should be. Often, or her own accord, she will come up and apologise and give me a hug and a kiss.

    Of course this is just my opinion. But I think the key here is for her to know that you and your wife are the parents and "in charge" full stop. I really wish you well on this journey.

    In metta,
    Rave
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    But whatever you do, you have to be consistent and both parents need to be on board. If one parent always gives in to the tantrum, they just learn they can get their way by acting out to that parent. You both have to be willing to put your foot down no matter how much she resists. Remember, you're her parent, not her friend. It's your job to teach her, whether that makes her grumpy or not. She needs your guidance
    Absolutely. I'm going to go against the grain here - I am pro spanking. Saying that, I only ever spanked my daughter 4 times in her life (she'll be 12 next month) and she can tell you why and what she did to deserve it. I instigated the rule of three warnings and then a smack (which was a light swat with an open hand across her backside through clothing. Which was hardly felt). For her, the wake up moment was more of "OMG you smacked me", rather than "OMG that hurt". Even now, if we're out and she gives me lip, I just start with a stern "One!" and no matter where she is she stops what she's doing and goes "ok ok two. I get it" and things get back to where they should be. Often, or her own accord, she will come up and apologise and give me a hug and a kiss.

    Of course this is just my opinion. But I think the key here is for her to know that you and your wife are the parents and "in charge" full stop. I really wish you well on this journey.

    In metta,
    Rave

    That's exactly the kind of spanking I am in favor of. I can only remember being spanked twice, and I, too, can tell you exactly why.

  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran
    I can't give a lot of advice here @buddhakai but I can tell you, like all things, it will pass......
  • Be patient with your child. Do not resort to physical punishment.
  • MaryAnne said:


    Also you and your spouse should ALWAYS be wearing "your parent hats". This cannot be stressed enough!
    Kids don't need more 'BFFs' or part-time parents / part-time playmates. Kids need Parents ALL the time.

    Just want to echo this advice. Parenting is a long haul, @buddhakai. There will come a time when you are best mates with your child but that will not happen until you've established your boundaries. Flowers do not grow in a war zone.
    federica
  • In York, or maybe it is Leeds, there is a quite ancient tradition called 'beating the bounds'. Once a year a group of young people are taken on a walk around the boundaries of the parish. At various points they are beaten. Yes, really. This is an old custom that was presumably designed to associate the pain with the knowledge of the boundaries and thus reinforce the memories, so that that the boundaries would be well-remembered by each generation from a young age.

    Just thought this seemed interestingly relevant.

    As for what to do with kids, after bringing up three, including the stubbornist young lady ever to walk he planet, I can safely say I have no idea. You just have to make it up as you go along, and whatever goes wrong is always all your fault.


  • While I agree and concur with most that have been said...just another pov.

    A pedestrian way of looking at development is in 7 year stages. First 7 years the child develops a core sense of the self and place in the world…this is derived from the family experience…the parents set the family experience via consistent structure and expectations. Second 7 years, the task is to be socially normed…the most important reference is the child’s peer group. A kid will live up or down to the expectations of the peer group…so as to fit in. Thus the parent role is to be attentive and guiding as to what peer group the child spends time in. The third 7 years its about finding out who they are, what are their passions and how to do it for themselves. Instead of telling the kid what to do…they don’t listen anyway…the parents change strategy, gives encouragement and asks questions…e.g., what’s the plan…how are you getting there, who you going with, do you have money to do it. Eventually the kid internalizes the questions and begins to think for themselves, takes ownership and responsibility for their path….which develops their sense of self-worth, self-confidence and competence.

    Thus OP when a child near the end of a stage, its transition time and a child will revert to a prior competence and will also struggle with developing new ways of being.
  • ThinGentlementThinGentlement Explorer
    edited August 2013
    @buddhakai - I understand your frustration, desperation even. As I've mentioned before (excuse me for repeating myself), my 8 year old son has severe problems.

    Behaviourally, he's a real challenge, and I mean that in the sense that he reduces us to tears on a daily basis. He drives his 3 year old sister nuts. His grandparents spend as little time with him as they can get away with without feeling too guilty.

    I won't bore you too much with the details, suffice to say we have massive, unreasonable tantrums that can end in violence against whoever is standing closest. He interrupts us constantly, such that we can never finish a sentence or complete a train of thought. He's mean and spiteful towards those who love him most. He has so much energy that it exhausts us to try and keep him from destructing the house, etc etc. You get the idea.

    Anyway, I do understand where you're coming from. What I would suggest is don't discount the capability of child psychologists. Even if they don't have a magic bullet for you, they can be very helpful in seeing through to the heart of a problem, which in turn can help you deal with the situation better.

    Your experience so far with health professionals may not be great (I've seen a fair few quacks too) but you may do better next time?

    Don't discount the reality of behavioural problems either. My son has a chromosome disorder which is very real and observable under a microscope. This is most likely what leads to most of his problems, however they are labelled.

    I'm unable to say what is at the root of your daughter's problems, but I will advise this - don't stop looking for help and try to pat yourself on the back - you're doing the right thing and I for one know just how hard your life is right now. But keep going! If you're willing to keep the options open for possible ways forward, then you are sure to make progress.

    Good luck.
    MaryAnnekarastiKundo
  • @Thingentlement, our kids should hang out. My daughter sounds just like that. We tried 4 different child psychologists, all of which recommend ritalin. No way in hell. And I disagree that we always need to be wearing the parent hats. I am a sentient being, given the name Ryan, and my wife the same. I will wear many hats in my life, but none of them will change who I really am. My job is as a Musician's technical support and sound system advisor, but that does not comprise my being. I am a proficient musician, but that does not comprise my being either. I am a son, husband, father, brother, cousin, friend and enemy, but none of those things change who I am. When I say we've chosen to be our children's parents, that comes from the observation that it is a decision, (taking the emotion out of it) one that either one of us could walk away from if we felt that necessary. We are their biological parents. I love my wife, and my children, and I choose to stay with them because of that, not because I fear what friends and family or the world would think if I abandoned them, or because it's gotten comfortable. I try to remember when I feel like pulling my hair out, that I have made the decision to do this, I am not being forced to do it. And I feel that as long as we are being consistent with boundaries, behavior and punishment, we can be her friends in all other situations, while keeping an eye on the aformentioned. I'm speaking purely from the disciplinarian aspect, I don't consider playing with my kids at the park, "being their parent". My brother does that, and he could certainly never parent his own children (by his own admission). I'm fine admitting that I'm doing things wrong, not at all blaming her, I'm sure it's majority if not entirely our fault. But we're not the ones that will live with that inadeptly handled childhood. When she's grown, she will be her own person with her own karma, and I will still be me. It's out of concern for her, that we strive to do better for her. I can't take buddhism out of anything and be a true buddhist the way I see it. I just feel like "the right path" could take many forms, and feel overwhelmed. I appreciate all of your comments greatly, they are wonderful food for thought. Thank you all again.
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    I would definitely do some research on how diet affects children's behavior. You'll find tons of articles and forums, see what you can find that closely match what your daughter experiences, and most likely you will find a dietary approach that might make a HUGE difference to her. Dyes especially can affect kid's behaviors. It might sound strange, but google it, and you'll be amazed how many people experience what you are, and how many have improvement (or entirely had problems disappear) after removing certain foods.
    Kundo
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    Parenting????????????
    I don't know for you.....but for me.....

    Nothing better addressed how I should interact with my own daughter than my own meditation practice. Answers much wider than my readings or ego simply unfolded when I was able to respond to each moment as it arose without resorting to any predetermined agenda.
    I think it enabled both of us to address arising situations without anyone's threatened identity getting in the way.
  • buddhakai said:

    I am a father of 2. I have been a practicing buddhist for a little over 5 years. My 6 year old daughter does NOT listen to anything, EVER!!! She lies to me, she tries to steal things from the store (we buy her plenty of stuff), she tells my wife and myself that she hates us, she tries to hit and bite and scratch my wife (for some reason not me) and she is always mean to her 2-year old brother. She throws extreme fits about everything. As soon as something doesn't go her way or she's told no, she throws herself on the floor and screams and cries, and will not calm down or listen to reason at all. I have tried everything, talked to Montessori teachers, Non-violent communications workshops, we even tried counselling (complete joke and not helpful at all), and nothing seems to make a difference. I was not beaten, or abused as a child, but I was spanked and disciplined relatively harshly when I acted out or threw fits (although I never threw fits like my daughter does, I even asked my parents if I was just forgetting these.). Is it buddhist to spank your children lol? I don't know what to do here, and I feel like I don't want her to think that we're mean and awful people, but I feel like trying to just be kind and compassionate all the time is, if anything hurting the situation and making her feel like she can do whatever she wants. I do put my foot down with things, but it typically ruins the whole day when that happens; she will scream and cry and say terrible things, and just be all around grouchy for the entire rest of the day. HELP!!!! PLEASE!!!! I don't know how to handle this the buddhist "right" way.

    Never mind about a 'Buddhist' right way. That's not the issue. She's just 6 years old and why and where has she picked up all those things? Perhaps, she has been exposed to some unlikely role models. Perhaps, she is craving for attention. If you can't help it, just ignore it. Perhaps, you have done your best.
  • Lee82Lee82 Veteran
    Reward systems work wonders. You need to find the right balance of carrot and stick. Sticker charts (it's amazing what a child will do for a sticker of a star on a wall chart!). Pocket money for good behaviour, 6 is certainly old enough for a small amount of money to spend on themselves and teaches the value of money. Taking some of the pocket money away for poor behaviour then works too.

    It's important to set boundaries and stick to them, there have to be rules and kids have to understand they are not in charge and cannot do things their own way all the time.

    It's difficult without knowing specific circumstances but I've had various challenges with my kids while they've been growing up and a change of house rules normally deal with the problems. Rules get relaxed when the kids are good and tightened if they start to push their luck. Obviously it's important to let kids be kids and to understand they are still young and it's natural to push the boundaries but for them to grow up well-behaved and respectful they also need to understand how the world works.

    Source: 2 kids of my own aged 10 and 8.

    Jeffrey
  • Just chiming off my lack of knowledge I had a memory of my own childhood. I wasn't following directions in school. Assuming your child is wishing attention maybe give her a sticker star when she is good for a whole time. Hmmm I have an idea. When she is at home burn a candle. When she is bad put out the candle. When the whole candle burns down you give her a pizza party. I don't know what to do when away from home. Perhaps give a star when she is good and then when she has enough stars go for ice cream? This helped me focus on the directions in my workbook for reading.
  • DandelionDandelion London Veteran
    As I'm not a parent I'm not able to give advice, but I can offer an observation. I have a cousin, and when he was little he was a real terror. A real screamer, and did some pretty awful things, including trying to throw the family dog on to the fire... my poor aunty really struggled with him, till he hit his mid teens when he finally calmed down. To meet him now, well he's simply a sweetheart. Very kind, very hard working. Some of us don't make 'good children'. The world is so confusing. Very sensitive individuals struggle to exist in a world where let's face it, we are constantly bombarded with stimuli, and some people in my opinion, when very young find the world an excrutiatingly painful place, constantly trying to figure out and sift through all the information that comes at them. No wonder some children are 'difficult'. I also think some children, like adults, are like sponges.. great big massive sponges that soak up the emotions and mental states of those around them. If this is the case with your daughter, It might not be your emotions that are having a negative effect, it could be a teacher, other children, other children's parents, the t.v... an endless list. Some ppl, and little people pick up on those subtleties, nuances that others are totally oblivious to, like they're automatically tapping into individual personality frequencies with every human they come into contact with.

    Just throwing this out there, i've no idea if it will resonate.
    I hope you get some good advice, and good luck.
    karastiMaryAnnebuddhakai
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    I really loved your post, @Dandelion! I was thinking about this very topic this morning, when I was thinking about why my teenager can be SO LOUD when he's the one that wants so much quiet in the house. Then I thought back to when he was little, and how we struggled to get through the grocery shopping without a breakdown on his part. He has improved of course as he's gotten older, but he still gets overstimulated. And when it happens, instead of having a temper tantrum like he used to, he just talks louder and louder and acts out in a hyper fashion. You'd think a person who is overstimulated would retreat to a quiet area, but they don't even understand that that is what the problem is. I think a lot of kids, and even adults, are overstimulated and don't even realize it.
  • DandelionDandelion London Veteran
    edited August 2013
    @karasti thank you :)
  • @Dandelion. You know I think you may be completely right. Because as I mentioned previously, she is a sweetheart when she wants to be. Maybe the big bad world is too much for her at this young age. That's why I want to be careful about becoming too disciplinarian with her. The more I talk with my wife, she remembers acting like our daughter when she was very young, and she is very normal, and usually calm, especially these days. When we first met she was pretty upset about a lot of things, but we grew together, and by the time we had kids, she had changed into a different person. I guess maybe you just have to "Grin and bear it" as they say. Not that I'm going to just let her act this way, but I think I may have been placing to much importance on this behavior. Thank you all very much!
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    I can say, though I have boys and not girls (3 boys, actually) that the age of around 6-7 until 10-11 is by far the hardest age for them, and for us. It just seems to be a time of coming out of being more of a baby but not yet old enough to have much independence or self-care. For my boys, once they got to 10-11 they settled down a lot, learned to identify and manage their emotions better, took up more interests so they had more to occupy their time with, and so on. Hang in there :) Sometimes all you can do is love and support them and as long as they feel that, in the end they will be ok. So will you, lol.
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