Examples: Monday, today, last week, Mar 26, 3/26/04
Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@newbuddhist.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take up to 48 hours. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.

what is the problem behind it?

misecmisc1misecmisc1 I am a HinduIndia Veteran
edited August 2013 in Philosophy
hi all,

i read this Hsin Hsin Ming: http://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/uploads/Hsin-Hsin-Ming.pdf

What is written here is theoretically understandable, but what is the problem in practically doing it? it says don't seek truth, just stop cherishing opinions - but can this be practically done? if we start living in this way, then will we not become mechanical robots - as we will not think, or if we think, we will not hold onto it - then how will be live life, means, if there is no goal which we want to attain, then how will be continue our life with no goal to attain, nothing to achieve.

if i try to willfully just be in the current moment, which is going on, usually after 2 to 3 secs, i feel there is something inside me, which tries to see if there is something interesting going on, trying to feel if i am really being in current moment - may be this is restlessness of my mind. but sometimes it happens that i willfully try to be in current moment for sometime, then it seems that things are just going on and there is nothing interesting in being in current moment.

a meditation question - which approach do you all think is better - anapanasati with natural breathing as meditation object or zazen just sitting method with observing whatever is going on in current moment? i have difficulty doing anapanasati with natural breathing as meditation object, since my natural breathing pattern is very irregular and also i do not want to try those approaches of counting the breath, as even feeling the physical sensation of breath at my nose tip is difficult for me, so i just try to be aware of breath coming in and going out, without focussing on any body part. so i am trying to do zazen, which seems slightly easy to do as nothing needs to be done in it, but just observing whatever is going on, without holding onto or rejecting anything and without getting entangled in thoughts - i am not able to do zazen due to my mind's mental chattering, but still i try to just sit daily.

may be i am too stupid person, with too much thinking mind, that it just goes against me totally in my spiritual journey - or may be my ignorance is too much that even theoretically understanding letting go, i am not able to let go - may be my defilements of lust, anger, greed, hatred, attachment and ego are too much in me, that may be even though how hard i try i may not live contentfully in the current moment.

any suggestions, please. thanks in advance.

Comments

  • SpinyNormanSpinyNorman It's still all old bollocks Veteran

    ... so i am trying to do zazen, which seems slightly easy to do as nothing needs to be done in it, but just observing whatever is going on, without holding onto or rejecting anything and without getting entangled in thoughts - i am not able to do zazen due to my mind's mental chattering, but still i try to just sit daily.

    There are many different approaches to meditation, and to some extent it's trial and error, finding out what works for you - though on the other hand it's good to stick with a consistent approach for a reasonable period of time, because these practices are progressive.
    Many people find that initially using an object like the breath to calm the mind is very helpful, because once the mind is calmer it's much easier to open out to "general observation" of whatever arises. You might find it helpful to try doing 2 sits, anapanasati first, then something like Zazen.
    misecmisc1
  • Another way to be in the moment instead of just observing…is just doing…like sitting…but the problem of sitting is that it is kind of passive and allows opportunity for the mind to wonder around. One of the things, imho that is of doing…but it is active, e.g., snowboarding, fencing, martial arts and etc. I enjoy snowboarding and find it to be an active in the moment meditation. Meaning when I am zipping down the hill at 50 mph…if you think…it is much too slow and what you thought about is 25 feet behind you. And if you anticipate you can become to stiff, ridged, i.e., anxious...and get tossed. To get in a “flow state” it takes a combination of something challenging but not too challenging…meaning that if it was too easy, you would be bored and if it was too hard you might too anxious…so you need something that you have some basic physical skills, that your emotional state is aroused but not calm or anxious and then the mental game. Imho most any individual sport like golf, archery or a sport like fencing, tennis martial arts is often a head/mind game…and when done skillfully “one disappears into the moment.”
  • SabreSabre Veteran
    edited August 2013
    As I see it, the question comes down to: "how do I let go?" in other words: "how do I do not-doing?" or "how do I try not to try?"

    Here is my view on this that I shared before:

    There is no answer to this question because you can't do letting go. Letting go is a result of faith or insight. In case of faith you let go because the Buddha said it, because your teachers say it. In case of insight you can let go because you understand why and how to do it. For example, once you understand that all doing/willing/thinking/craving is not going to create what you are looking for. Also it combines with insight into no self, not putting yourself in the center of the universe. Of course it can also be a combination of faith and insight - at a certain moment the two are basically the same thing.

    So to answer the question: What is the problem behind it? That is attachment to thinking, controlling, to doing and willing, and having a self-view with respect to those things.

    "Just sitting" in my experience often automatically turns into breath awareness. Because when the mind and body get calm, (and the surroundings are quiet) the main moving thing in experience is the breath and so that is what naturally draws the attention.

    One further piece of advice I can give is to try and recall meditation sessions where you were able to let go, even if just a little bit. That is one way to increase faith and insight.

    misecmisc1riverflow
  • @misecmisc1 one bit of advise I was given a while ago really helps me. Helps to quiet my chattering mind. I was told to "be an observer of the meditation, not a participant."
    misecmisc1misterCope
  • SpinyNormanSpinyNorman It's still all old bollocks Veteran
    Sabre said:

    There is no answer to this question because you can't do letting go.

    I agree that "letting go" isn't an act of will, but I think it can be developed as an attitude in meditation. Sometimes I'll use a phrase like "let it go" or "let it pass". Occasionally I'll visualise waves passing by. So there is the attitude of allowing things to pass, rather than hanging on to them.
    misecmisc1
  • SpinyNormanSpinyNorman It's still all old bollocks Veteran
    Sabre said:

    "Just sitting" in my experience often automatically turns into breath awareness. Because when the mind and body get calm, (and the surroundings are quiet) the main moving thing in experience is the breath and so that is what naturally draws the attention.

    Yes, that's true.

    misecmisc1
  • SabreSabre Veteran
    edited August 2013

    Sabre said:

    There is no answer to this question because you can't do letting go.

    I agree that "letting go" isn't an act of will, but I think it can be developed as an attitude in meditation. Sometimes I'll use a phrase like "let it go" or "let it pass". Occasionally I'll visualise waves passing by. So there is the attitude of allowing things to pass, rather than hanging on to them.
    Yes, you can use these things. I do too in some form. But when you tell them to another, some persons I think are likely to use them as another way of trying. I noticed when I repeat a phrase without feeling what they are pointing too, it doesn't work.. if you get what I mean. Also the words change over time.

    The attitude is a result of previous experiences I think. If you have let go before and see the results, you train this attitude to let go again.

  • misterCopemisterCope PA, USA Veteran
    Like @SpinyNorman said, there are a number of different ways to approach meditation. You could try chanting, or noting, or visualization.

    A visualization technique that I just recently heard was to picture a serene, calm lake deep in the mountains and far from the noise of civilization. The surface of the lake is very wide and perfectly still. I like it! Maybe it might help you?
  • NirvanaNirvana aka BUBBA   `     `     ` `     ` Outa Range Fridays thru Sundays South Carolina, USA Veteran
    edited August 2013


    http://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/uploads/Hsin-Hsin-Ming.pdf

    What is written here is theoretically understandable...

    Yes, it's called Taoist thought. It's Taoism in Zen clothing.

    It's a way of life that each appropriates in his or her own way, as is possible. For myself, I don't see where it says not to seek Truth (or Meaning) in our lives, but not to be dualists. We are not separate (separated) from reality, but help comprise it and on the same, simple (monistic) plane.

    it says don't seek truth, just stop cherishing opinions

    Actually, @misecmisc1, I believe you have overlooked another passage, besides the one you quoted (stanza 10). "Scripture" quite often has self-contradictory statements. Have you ever had to write philosophy papers? You know how taxing it is to get things straight, then.

    Note, though, that the second stanza reads:

    Make the smallest distinction, however,
    and you are as far from it as heaven is from earth.
    If you want to realize the truth,
    then hold no opinions for or against anything.


    Changes that seem to occur in the (empty) world,
    appear real only because of ignorance.
    Do not search for the truth;
    only cease to cherish opinions. (Stanza 10)

    Best Regards!
  • misecmisc1misecmisc1 I am a Hindu India Veteran
    edited August 2013
    it says don't seek truth, just stop cherishing opinions - but can this be practically done? if we start living in this way, then will we not become mechanical robots - as we will not think, or if we think, we will not hold onto it - then how will be live life, means, if there is no goal which we want to attain, then how will be continue our life with no goal to attain, nothing to achieve.

    if i try to willfully just be in the current moment, which is going on, usually after 2 to 3 secs, i feel there is something inside me, which tries to see if there is something interesting going on, trying to feel if i am really being in current moment - may be this is restlessness of my mind. but sometimes it happens that i willfully try to be in current moment for sometime, then it seems that things are just going on and there is nothing interesting in being in current moment.
    any comments, please regarding above things - or are the above things too stupid that not many people are interested in clarifying these things.

    a thought is coming to me these days - i have got human birth, got nice parents who provided me good education, got good job, have a wife and a daughter, my body though thin is healthy currently - the thought which is coming to me is if i cannot progress in my spiritual journey in this life with all the factors helpful to me, then if in my next life even if i get a human birth but suppose i get born with some physical deficiency in my body with some organ not ok, or in a poor family which cannot even provide education to me, or, may be as an orphan who get misguided from childhood due to no parents, then how will i ever progress on my spiritual journey in my these future lives. since i do not know my karma backlog of my past lives, so do not know what amount of bad karma backlog is still pending to be suffered in addition to current bad karma, which i usually do due to my defilements of lust, anger, greed, hatred, attachment and ego in me - so don't know what type of future lives i may get after this life. so since i am not able to progress in my spiritual journey in my current life, i feel sometimes that i am wasting my life and theoretically understanding Hsin Hsin Ming, i am not able to practically do it for even a small time duration of say 2 to 3 sec, leave it for doing it for say 1 hour. seems like i am a totally hopeless and idiotic case, who knows that he is sufferring from a disease, theoretically somewhat knows its medicine, but damm so idiot to not know how to hold the medicine in hand to put the medicine in mouth.
  • NirvanaNirvana aka BUBBA   `     `     ` `     ` Outa Range Fridays thru Sundays South Carolina, USA Veteran
    edited August 2013
    Nothing interesting going on in the current moment?

    Sounds like dukkha, pure and simple. Unsatisfactoriness!

    Well, I doubt that you are incapable of enjoying the tranquillity of drawing in a pure breath and residing in a state of peace. Just being content: That's all it takes. Contentment is the French word for happiness and is the basis of any state of equilibrium or even of equanimity.

    Seems to me that you're overthinking things and worrying about every possible imperfection. That can only cause pangs of regret or sorrow or of foreboding.

    Spiritual life consists, first and foremost, of a sense of security or groundedness in something that exudes confidence and love of experience.

    I think you are putting the cart in front of the horse here. Try not to care so much about little things. To paraphrase Rumi, sell all your little things (in this case worries) and pursue bewilderment. Also, remain confident. Swami Vivekananda once said that the only true Atheists are those who do not believe in themselves. To put that in nontheistic terms, the only true falterers are those who do not have faith in their own integrity and their own power for good and fulfillment.

    Well, anyway, that's my two cents.
    misecmisc1
Sign In or Register to comment.