Examples: Monday, today, last week, Mar 26, 3/26/04
Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@newbuddhist.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take up to 48 hours. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.

The Dalai Lama

Somebody said, "many Buddhists don't like the Dalai Lama."

I've never heard this before and I'm wondering if it is true. If it is, why is that the case?

I'd sure love an objective answer, detached from extreme emotion. Thank you in advance!
«13

Comments

  • CittaCitta Veteran
    edited August 2013
    Its complicated.
    I think that some Buddhists do not like the fact that the general public assume that the D.L. is some kind of Pope with authority over all Buddhists.
    Some Vajrayana followers do not like the fact that the D.L. has become involved in all schools of Tibetan Vajrayana since the Chinese invasion..He is a monk of the Gelugpa school, and as a matter of fact is not the head of that.
    In recent years he has recognised the 'incarnations ' of senior Lamas of schools to which historically he has no connection..this has caused resentment.
    He banned certain practices and outlawed certain groups who do not recognise his authority.
    He is seen by some Tibetans as a puppet either of the Chinese government, or by others of the Tibetan government-in-exile in Dharamsala.

    He is however held in very high esteem by many Vajrayana followers.
    As I said..its complicated.
  • SpinyNormanSpinyNorman It's still all old bollocks Veteran
    edited August 2013
    Citta said:


    I think that some Buddhists do not like the fact that the general public assume that the D.L. is some kind of Pope with authority over all Buddhists.

    Yes, I've come across that mis-perception quite a lot. It doesn't particularly bother me though.
  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran
    Citta said:

    Its complicated.

    Well put!

    I sometime find HH to be, shall we say, irritating. Some things he says in public rub people the wrong way.

    Some years ago, his comments regarding homosexuals and Buddhism were picked up by the press. The outrage from the GLTB Buddhist community was understandably pronounced. A delegation went to Daramsala seeking "clarification". Afterwards HH backpedaled a bit, but did not retract. Handlers, knowing how many GLTB Buddhists there are and contributions they and those sympathetic to their plight make, could have advised HH to remain silent on the subject.

    A few years ago, following the catastrphic earthquakes, HH was asked about the situation - loss of life & property - and he answered that everything was karma. This was spun by the press in such a way as to suggest that HH comments meant that he thought the people deserved their fate because of their actions. This, of course, was not what HH meant to say. Most if not all Buddhists would understand perfectly what HH meant. However, the most if the world isn't Buddhist and wouldn't understand. Rather than risk serious misunderstanding, HH should have simply not offered a comment like that.

    I find HH's little verbal faux pas to be very irritating. I adore the man's teachings, and I admire his endless dedication to Tibet, but there are times that I sincerely wish that he'd just STFU.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    karasti said:

    It seems to me that it comes down to what people choose to look at. Most of the people who do not like him, in fact do not like certain aspects of his political involvements and things done politically. That's understandable, what statesman/politician has 100% agreement of anyone? As a *person* he seems to me to be a good example of a human being. Perfect? Of course not. Enlightened? No. Has has administration done bad things under him? Apparently so. But I still think there is a lot that can be learned, and used, that came from him, and I also think that if he were not who he is, Buddhism would not have spread to the Western world nearly as much as it has.

    Very well put.

    No one in a leadership role of anything will be beloved by everyone.

  • zenmystezenmyste Veteran
    edited August 2013

    Somebody said, "many Buddhists don't like the Dalai Lama."

    I've never heard this before and I'm wondering if it is true. If it is, why is that the case?

    I'd sure love an objective answer, detached from extreme emotion. Thank you in advance!

    Because hes not a true buddhist inspiration. Hes just yet another celebrity figure...
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    I don't get it. You're on the web criticizing someone for using the web?
  • SileSile Veteran
    edited August 2013
    While I find the Dalai Lama completely likable, personally, most of my best teachers in life have my respect due to their teachings on the subject at hand. I never met Trungpa Rinpoche, for example, but some of his warnings and explanations on pitfalls that Westerners in particular face are the most profound and personally meaningful I have ever heard. "Spiritual materialism" - what a concept. I sometimes think I'm glad I never met him, because now I can use his teachings without feeling so compelled to judge his personal life. And the Dalai Lama is no Trungpa Rinpoche when it comes to personal adventures ;) Just as with any other subject in life, I feel the benefit of multiple teachers and their multiple styles--I go to Lama Zopa's words, for example, when I need some kind of passionate, visceral emotional therapy, but for a truly worldwide application of Buddhist thought, it's the Dalai Lama. He doesn't let me off the hook of action--he said just the other day that while prayer plays a role, it can be no substitute for actually getting involved with a situation and taking action. Not words squeamish people want to hear, but they sure ring true to this lazy Buddhist.

    For the record, I doubt it's true that "many Buddhists don't like the Dalai Lama," any more than it's true that "many Buddhists don't like [insert name]." Buddhism doesn't promote the idea of "disliking" people; any Buddhist of any stripe whom I've met has, regardless of sect, promoted the idea of not obsessing over things like "liking" this person or "disliking" that person. That kind of pettiness, while we all are prone to it, is simply not a Buddhist concept.
    karastimisterCopekarmablues
  • SileSile Veteran
    I would add that I doubt someone trying to portray the Dalai Lama as a political activist has attended many of his public teachings ;) The proportionality (focus on Tibet vs. focus on teachings) is simply not there.
  • zenmystezenmyste Veteran
    edited August 2013
    vinlyn said:

    I don't get it. You're on the web criticizing someone for using the web?

    i just think its easy for dalai lama to teach when he doesnt have to worry about things the normal person has to worry about. work, bills, tax, other people etc etc

    Hes got 24 hour security around him, Yet he says the best way to deal with people who are violent towards us is to have compassion for them.

    He says money isnt everything , yet he stays in luxary 5 star hotels when he tours..

    He says not to get caught up in materialistic things but uses twitter, watches TV, and does normal stuff....

    Now theres nothing wrong with doing all this 'normal' things just as long as you dont 'teach' us one thing and 'do' another....

    Like i said, hes just another celebrity (in ropes)
    JeffreyCinorjerTheEccentric
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    zenmyste said:



    i just think its easy for dalai lama to teach when he doesnt have to worry about things the normal person has to worry about. work, bills, tax, other people etc etc

    Hes got 24 hour security around him, Yet he says the best way to deal with people who are violent towards us is to have compassion for them.

    He says money isnt everything , yet he stays in luxary 5 star hotels when he tours..

    He says not to get caught up in materialistic things but uses twitter, watches TV, and does normal stuff....

    Now theres nothing wrong with doing all this 'normal' things just as long as you dont 'teach' us one thing and 'do' another....

    Like i said, hes just another celebrity (in ropes)

    How is not having to worry about work, bills, taxes, and other people that much different than any other Buddhist monk (at least in Asia)?

    What's wrong with a man who has had repeated death threats made against him having body guards?

    Okay, point taken on the hotels...but why is it important?

    So by your own definition, you are also "caught up in materialistic things"?

    The question really should be -- is he clinging to these things. And frankly, you can't know that.

    riverflowJeffreyArthurbodhi
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    Being compassionate does not mean letting people assault you! :lol:
    vinlynSile
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    He doesn't teach us not use to twitter or watch tv as far as I am aware.
    And he has security because he is under threat constantly. Having security doesn't mean that he doesn't have compassion for those who threaten him..I think he does.
    Someone who who is really detached can stay in 5 Star Hotels with impunity.
    As a matter of fact he is now in semi-retirement and has said that he would prefer the peace of McCleod Ganj to any hotel...
    vinlynSile
  • Ahhhh ok... Now i get it. So we can do whatever we want just as long as we dont get caught up in it. Thats easy then.

    So theres no point in being a practising buddhist then. If i can do whatever i want as long as i dont get caught up in it then thats great..

    I thought we had to give up all materialistic stuff. (At least i thought monks had to) My bad!


  • CittaCitta Veteran
    Quite.
  • zenmystezenmyste Veteran
    edited August 2013
    Huh????

    What you talking about?

    I am worrying about my own path thats why i had my say, because i was confused.. and i was just trying to say i admit i was confused about it.

    I said my bad
  • Citta said:


    In recent years he has recognised the 'incarnations ' of senior Lamas of schools to which historically he has no connection..this has caused resentment.

    Really? Could you give some examples? Are you referring to the Karmapa?

    The DL used to fly coach, he said, but his robes tended to engulf his seat-mate/s, so he bumped up to business class. AFAIK, he doesn't fly first class.

    Sile
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    The Office of His Holiness the Dalai Lama (OHHDL) are the people who maintain twitter, facebook and other media relations. I doubt the Dalai Lama himself is the actual person making the twitter posts!
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    edited August 2013
    whoops wrong thread...
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited August 2013
    zenmyste said:

    Ahhhh ok... Now i get it. So we can do whatever we want just as long as we dont get caught up in it. Thats easy then.

    Not "we". Bodhisattvas can.
    zenmyste said:


    I thought we had to give up all materialistic stuff. (At least i thought monks had to) My bad!

    Not in TB, they don't. Abbots and high lamas have always lived well, had servants, all that. Ordinary monks live a more renunciant life.

  • CittaCitta Veteran
    edited August 2013
    Dakini said:

    Citta said:


    In recent years he has recognised the 'incarnations ' of senior Lamas of schools to which historically he has no connection..this has caused resentment.

    Really? Could you give some examples? Are you referring to the Karmapa?

    The DL used to fly coach, he said, but his robes tended to engulf his seat-mate/s, so he bumped up to business class. AFAIK, he doesn't fly first class.

    The Karmapa fiasco is the most high profiled example..but there are a number of Kagyu and Nyingmapa 'tulkus ' which the DL has had a hand in 'discovering' and this would have been highly unusual before the diaspora. It is particularly resented by the Nyingmapas who pride themselves on their independence from the Lhasa ( now Dharamsala ) hierarchy.
  • SileSile Veteran
    edited August 2013
    zenmyste said:

    vinlyn said:

    I don't get it. You're on the web criticizing someone for using the web?

    i just think its easy for dalai lama to teach when he doesnt have to worry about things the normal person has to worry about. work, bills, tax, other people etc etc

    Hes got 24 hour security around him, Yet he says the best way to deal with people who are violent towards us is to have compassion for them.

    He says money isnt everything , yet he stays in luxary 5 star hotels when he tours..

    He says not to get caught up in materialistic things but uses twitter, watches TV, and does normal stuff....

    Now theres nothing wrong with doing all this 'normal' things just as long as you dont 'teach' us one thing and 'do' another....

    Like i said, hes just another celebrity (in ropes)
    I think a lot of the "5 star hotels" and "wearing Gucci shoes" is inaccurate. When he stays in my town he generally sleep at someone's house. Now that we have a teaching center with guest bedrooms he sometimes stays there as well. Nothing fancy (I've cleaned the spiders and bugs out of those rooms myself--gently of course ;) ) The main room though is very beautiful by my standards, with thangkas and statues and everything you might expect for a Buddhist teacher's room. But the mattress is hardly Gucci quality, lol. And he trundles down to the kitchen for meals just like anyone else. And in simple sandals like anyone else.

  • CittaCitta Veteran
    Ah yes 'Gucci shoes ' that particular canard can be traced back directly to remarks made by Rupert Murdoch when he was courting the vast Chinese market aided and abetted by his now estranged wife Wendy Deng.
  • SileSile Veteran
    edited August 2013
    I think it's the Buddha's idea of a joke on this Buddhist, btw, that of all the places I've cleaned in this town, including my own house, it would have to be the Buddhist center that has literally thousands of bugs per room. Honestly, it is so over the top that I sometimes wonder if they're drawn to the energy there. Nothing like hand-carrying hundreds of semi-alive box elder bugs out one by one to drive home the point of life's sacredness :) When I first met the people at our temple, a nun instructed us (we were cleaning, of course) that if you find a bug, please just take it to the garden, lol. I literally cried, because it felt like coming home. By about the 75th bug I was crying for other reasons (kidding).
    MaryAnne
  • You know what?
    If *I* had to fly many many thousands of miles across the globe, every year, for years on end, while keeping an exhausting schedule of appearances and conferences, at his age etc .... I would absolutely! fly first class if I could! You better believe it!
    lobsterkarasti
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    MaryAnne said:

    You know what?
    If *I* had to fly many many thousands of miles across the globe, every year, for years on end, while keeping an exhausting schedule of appearances and conferences, at his age etc .... I would absolutely! fly first class if I could! You better believe it!

    I agree, MaryAnne. When I began flying to Thailand most summers, it was in coach. But 27 hours in a cramped seat...no way. Soon, if I had built up enough miles I would fly business...which of course, earned me more and more miles, and it got to the point that I could always fly business, rarely having to pay the extra. And considering the need to exercise leg muscles and prevent clots, etc., to me it would be wise survival for anyone to fly business if it's more than a short hop.

  • SileSile Veteran
    Citta said:

    Ah yes 'Gucci shoes ' that particular canard can be traced back directly to remarks made by Rupert Murdoch when he was courting the vast Chinese market aided and abetted by his now estranged wife Wendy Deng.

    Fascinating, @Citta, I'd no idea! Thanks for that historical tidbit.
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    edited August 2013
    Sile said:

    Citta said:

    Ah yes 'Gucci shoes ' that particular canard can be traced back directly to remarks made by Rupert Murdoch when he was courting the vast Chinese market aided and abetted by his now estranged wife Wendy Deng.

    Fascinating, @Citta, I'd no idea! Thanks for that historical tidbit.
    He referred to 'the old fraud wearing Gucci slippers ' all for the benefit of the Chinese govt...whose approval and yuan he was desperate for.
  • misterCopemisterCope PA, USA Veteran
    Wow, what a response! Thank you very much to everyone who provided educational, objective information. _/\_
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited August 2013
    It's also not a matter of liking rather than disagreeing what the true nature of reality is. Bumping of different views naturally produces emotionality because each mandala is intruding on the other. Friction. When my teacher visited America it was an issue or perhaps ordeal to do a talk with a Gelug sangha.
  • TheEccentricTheEccentric South east, UK Veteran
    edited August 2013
    I'm going to have to tread lightly on this one because a lot of you know I have a history talking about him but I do wish he would stop throwing shade on the NKT and it does annoy me how many people who blindly follow him hate on the NKT without even trying out any Meditation classes for themselves or any thing just because of his opinion also he is to mainstream and is like a celebrity now, I think many of the people who have heard of him even know that he is a Buddhist.
    caz
  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran

    I do wish he would stop throwing shade on the NKT

    I don't think HH spends a lot of time energy dissing NKT and Shugenites. He did repudiate the practice causing a rift in the lineage, but .....
    and it does annoy me how many people who blindly follow him hate on the NKT
    It's his apologists that are the most annoying - saying how we should all be dissing NKT et al. I find this annoying because I don't happen to think such proscriptions have anything to do with me or my practice/study lineage - Kagyu - and seeing as neither my root guru of even the Karmapa has really said anything one way or the other, it's really none of my affair.

    Also, I'm of the opinion that someone's practice is between them and their guru and none of my business.

    Considering some of the extreme behavior we see on the web (where most of the real controversy lies) the whole sad business shames us all.
    MaryAnnelobsterCittacaz
  • Does one consider DL a politician?
  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran

    Does one consider DL a politician?

    Of course.

    Until recently he was Head of State - you have to be a politician for a job like that.

  • CoryCory Tennessee Veteran
    edited August 2013
    It was me that said so. And another reason many don't like him is because of criminal allegations. I Think he is fantastic personally.
  • Chaz said:


    Of course.

    Until recently he was Head of State - you have to be a politician for a job like that.

    Thanks for your reply. So, can a monk be a politician concurrently?

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Let's just remember that he didn't seek to become the DL, it was thrust upon him.
    riverflowDandelion
  • So, can a monk be a politician concurrently?
    I would suggest many senior monks, abbots and nuns have learned diplomacy . . .
    vinlynriverflow
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    Chaz said:

    I do wish he would stop throwing shade on the NKT

    I don't think HH spends a lot of time energy dissing NKT and Shugenites. He did repudiate the practice causing a rift in the lineage, but .....
    and it does annoy me how many people who blindly follow him hate on the NKT
    It's his apologists that are the most annoying - saying how we should all be dissing NKT et al. I find this annoying because I don't happen to think such proscriptions have anything to do with me or my practice/study lineage - Kagyu - and seeing as neither my root guru of even the Karmapa has really said anything one way or the other, it's really none of my affair.

    Also, I'm of the opinion that someone's practice is between them and their guru and none of my business.

    Considering some of the extreme behavior we see on the web (where most of the real controversy lies) the whole sad business shames us all.

    Well said..some of his followers, a small minority, take things well past dissing of course. There are deeply disturbing videos of groups of NKT AND hard-core DL supporters attacking each other physically in mobs.
    Truly shaming behaviour from both sides.
    In the Old Country all this went on to some extent, it was no Shangri-La.
    But Tibet is so huge and its population was so relatively small that they could physically avoid each other .
    Not a possibility in the global village.
  • zenmyste said:

    Somebody said, "many Buddhists don't like the Dalai Lama."

    I've never heard this before and I'm wondering if it is true. If it is, why is that the case?

    I'd sure love an objective answer, detached from extreme emotion. Thank you in advance!

    Because hes not a true buddhist inspiration. Hes just yet another celebrity figure...
    Well, I think you must speak for yourself. I find him an inspiration. In fact I am in awe of his ability to deal with so many delicate and difficult issues all at once and maintain his practice and principles. Like walking a tightrope carrying a bag of angry cats. He is a excellent scholar, a brilliant speaker, a skilled practitioner and whoever said earlies that he is not enlightened cannot prove it. For me it will be a very sad day when he departs for other realms.

    As for his views on this or that sub-cult of Buddhism I couldn't care less, so maybe that's why I don't have any issues with approach to them.

    riverflowMaryAnnevinlyn
  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran

    Chaz said:


    So, can a monk be a politician concurrently?

    Sure! There nothing in a monk's vow prohibiting such activities, so if a monk wanted to run for mayor, governor or even president, that would be ok. It might not be the most skillful choice, but no one's hold a gun to the monk's head preventing him. If anything prevents, it's our materialistic expectations of what a monk should and shouldn't be.

    riverflowMaryAnne
  • Citta said:

    Ah yes 'Gucci shoes ' that particular canard can be traced back directly to remarks made by Rupert Murdoch when he was courting the vast Chinese market aided and abetted by his now estranged wife Wendy Deng.


    Ahhh, Rupert Murdoch, that pillar of ethics and compassion [COFF] for all things news and media related.... meanwhile corrupting every industry and social construct he's involved in. Whatta guy!
    riverflowCittavinlyn
  • HH certainly has been an inspiration to me...He is very skilled at speaking to "Westerners" like myself, who haven't a clue, in a non-scary, non-threatening way that reverbates with whatever Universal Wisdom might possibly be within. And for me, that was the first step in this path.
    MaryAnneriverflowvinlynBunks
  • karmablueskarmablues Veteran
    edited August 2013
    I would say that Thai Buddhists in general hold HH the Dalai Lama in very high regard. Several organisations in Thailand such as the Buddhadasa Indapanno Archive (associated with Wat Suan Mokkh of the Ven. Buddhadasa) have for several decades organized events with the Dalai Lama to foster Thai - Tibetan Buddhism relations.

    The latest event was held in December 2012 in India where a group of nearly 50 Thai elders consisting of highly respected monks and scholars met to engage in a two day inter-Buddhist dialogue with HH the Dalai Lama. 300 Thai lay Buddhists flew to India to join the event. A written message from the Supreme Patriarch of Thailand was delivered giving his blessings for the event.

    Also, I think that Thais are generally comfortable with HH the Dalai Lama's involvement in what traditionally are seen as "worldly affairs". In the event mentioned above, one of the talks given by HH the Dalai Lama was on “Solutions to World Problems” and the Thai audience was keen to listen to his views and had a lot of questions for him such as what he thought about the global economic crisis.

    HH the Dalai Lama certainly felt secure with his Thai audience and offered some very frank advice. For example, he said, “We should remember that the Buddha taught for the benefit of all human beings. We too are part of humanity. To solve these problems we have a responsibility to work together. As a Tibetan Buddhist my concern is for the whole of humanity, you too should consider more than just Thailand and Bangkok.”

    Nonetheless, I am aware that during his visits to some other countries in Asia, he has encountered protests from Mahayana groups who say that Tibetan sexual tantric practices corrupts Buddhism. Also, I am aware that he has attracted criticism from some activists because he has said, when questioned, that sexual intercourse among homosexuals are generally considered to be sexual misconduct in Buddhism (My guess is that this is what most Thai monks, if questioned on this subject matter, would say also. But it is not a subject that the monks would bring up on their own if not questioned about it.)
    vinlynSileInvincible_summer
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    edited August 2013
    We have the curious situation that HHDL is respected more outside of the Tibetan Community than in some sections of that community.
    It may be an inevitable consequence of his political role, which in the form that it became was a consequence of the Diaspora.
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    As to his views on homosexuality he did help his cause by making his views known...views that many educated westerners would not feel comfortable with...then meeting representatives of the LAGB group and assuring them that he had been quoted out of context...and then later that year repeating the same view.
    Which is basically that homosexual intercourse ' blocks the wind channels ' leading to an increased likelihood of rebirth in the 'hell realms '.
  • Thanks for that clarification. I suppose that would mean sexual intercourse among heterosexuals which involve the use of certain orifice would also be regarded in the same light. So it is actually not really about homosexual Vs. heterosexual, but rather just an issue of the orifice used.
«13
Sign In or Register to comment.