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Karma? Buddhist ethics? Or just that life is unfair?

vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
http://www.today.com/health/mom-teen-denied-heart-transplant-he-deserves-second-chance-6C10904077

I'm putting this in general banter, although what crossed my mind was Buddhist ethics here.

It's the story about a teen who is being denied a heart transplant, and the reasons why.

Just interested in any thoughts you have.
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Comments

  • Seems to me that precariously the board or powers that be in the hospital play God in these decisions. A life is at stake. At least they have channels to appeal. On the other hand there is someone else whose life is also at stake. Well my thoughts are garbage or rubbish anyhow.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Gee, Jeffrey...I always listen when you "speak"!
  • MaryAnneMaryAnne Veteran
    edited August 2013
    You know- this could be exactly the 'life changing' second chance the kid needs to become a model citizen and responsible adult. With a heart transplant he will never be able to do drugs, drink, or otherwise indulge in "risky behavior"- at least not without the real possibility of damaging or rejecting that new organ and dying.

    Do they deny ex-drinkers liver transplants because they have addiction issues and MAY start drinking again? Usually not. And more than likely they are well into their 50's or 60s by then. This kid is YOUNG. He's got his whole life ahead of him... and apparently the damage to his heart isn't even his fault in any way.

    I really really hate to say it, but I wonder if he was white or Asian and from a more well-to-do family background, would they be so hesitant?

    Added: Sorry, I didn't tie my comment into anything to do with buddhist ethics or Karma, etc. I honestly don't see this as any sort of philosophical or religious issue... probably more of a political/class issue.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    MaryAnne said:

    ...
    I really really hate to say it, but I wonder if he was white or Asian and from a more well-to-do family background, would they be so hesitant?

    Added: Sorry, I didn't tie my comment into anything to do with buddhist ethics or Karma, etc. I honestly don't see this as any sort of philosophical or religious issue... probably more of a political/class issue.

    I didn't mention that, but to be honest, that's what I was really thinking.

    And in terms of not tying it into Buddhist ethics...I really just see ethics as ethics...so your response was very appropriate.

  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran
    edited August 2013
    Nothing to say about Buddhism here but I do believe the good doc is lying through her teeth.

    She shook her head when she said that there is just one set of guidelines for all patients and nodded when she said that the guys run ins with the law did not have any weight.

    Schoolbook example of lying. Yepp I've seen all episodes of "Lie to me".
    :rolleyes:
    zenffperson
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    The media strikes again! It's great news that at least he has a chance.

    I have a friend whose son had a transplant when he was just a small boy. Even now, a decade later, he still occasionally goes into rejection and ends up in the hospital for days until they work through it. If it were me -- at my age -- I'd never agree.
  • Attention!
    Attention!
    Attention!






    Sorry wrong context but could not resist. :o
    Right context:
    http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~beatrice/buddhist-practice/attention.html

    May all be well
    well
    well . . .
  • jlljll Veteran
    somehow, people have interesting ways of defining karma.
    Buddha explains karma as how things work.
    If you reject Buddha's explanation, it doesnt mean that
    karma does not exist.

    it just means that your karma, as in your understanding of
    how things work, does not agree with Buddha.
    vinlyn said:

    http://www.today.com/health/mom-teen-denied-heart-transplant-he-deserves-second-chance-6C10904077

    I'm putting this in general banter, although what crossed my mind was Buddhist ethics here.

    It's the story about a teen who is being denied a heart transplant, and the reasons why.

    Just interested in any thoughts you have.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    As usual, jll, I haven't foggiest what you're talking about.
  • jlljll Veteran
    for some people, if you ask them why are some people born
    without arms and legs. or why 2 girls born to the same parents,
    one is attractive and one is ugly?
    they will say genetics or i dont know.

    well, if you ask buddha the same question, he will say it is due
    to their karma.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    jll said:

    for some people, if you ask them why are some people born
    without arms and legs. or why 2 girls born to the same parents,
    one is attractive and one is ugly?
    they will say genetics or i dont know.

    well, if you ask buddha the same question, he will say it is due
    to their karma.

    Yes, essentially that is the "old world" explanation of karma.

    What point are you making in this particular young man's case?

  • ToshTosh Veteran
    edited August 2013
    If there is one heart available for transplant and two people to give it to, would you give it to the person who has a history of not following medical advice, or to the other who has a good history of doing the stuff they should?

    I'm glad I don't have to make these tough decisions, but I'm also glad there's people who can make them.
    JeffreyFlorianChrysalid
  • ToshTosh Veteran
    jll said:

    for some people, if you ask them why are some people born
    without arms and legs. or why 2 girls born to the same parents,
    one is attractive and one is ugly?
    they will say genetics or i dont know.

    well, if you ask buddha the same question, he will say it is due
    to their karma.

    Karma is a complex subject and there's many different views. Some views are quite mechanical, for example I once heard a monk explaining that if we had our wallet stolen, that was because we had stole a wallet in this or a previous life. But other views aren't as rigid as this.

    I'm pretty sure there's a school of thought that karma is an explanation of our genetic inheritance and our experiences; but I'm a bit vague on that.

  • jll said:

    for some people, if you ask them why are some people born
    without arms and legs. or why 2 girls born to the same parents,
    one is attractive and one is ugly?
    they will say genetics or i dont know.

    well, if you ask buddha the same question, he will say it is due
    to their karma.

    The Buddha didn't say karma explained everything that happens. This abuses the meaning of "karma" and undermines the role karma plays in Buddhist practice:
    Some uninformed Buddhist might say that the death and injury caused by the tsunami are the result of peoples’ past bad kamma. It need hardly be stated here that this is contrary to what the Buddha taught. In the Devadaha Sutta (M.II,214, also A.I,173 ) the Buddha says that the belief that every experience we have is due to past kamma (sabbam tam pubbe katahetu) is a wrong and false view (miccha ditthi). In the Sivaka Sutta (S. IV,228) he says that the suffering we sometimes experience can be due to kamma but it could also be due to sickness, to weather, to carelessness or to external agents (opakkamikani). The tsunami would be a good example of the third and the last of these causes. All kamma, whether positive or negative, certainly has an effect, but not all effects are due to kamma.
    http://sdhammika.blogspot.com/2011/03/tsunami-buddhist-view.html
    vinlynrobotlobsterFlorian
  • Tosh said:

    If there is one heart available for transplant and two people to give it to, would you give it to the person who has a history of not following medical advice, or to the other who has a good history of doing the stuff they should?

    I'm glad I don't have to make these tough decisions, but I'm also glad there's people who can make them.

    @Tosh

    The problem with this situation cited in the article was that the 'excuse' given was the labeling of the kid as possibly "non compliant" as a patient.... but the kid had NO prior medical history of non compliance! He'd never been ill before. He's 15! What they were REALLY alluding to is the fact that:

    1. He's Black, (let's not pretend that had nothing to do with it)
    2. He's probably not from a well-to-do background
    3. He's been in a minor scrape with the law - and yet was wearing an ankle bracelet as a result.
    Being black also statistically leads to much harsher penalties than white kids get, by the way. I personally know of several trouble-making teens who went through their phase of 'troubles with the law" for all manner of things- and never saw jail OR an ankle bracelet. They were all white. The minute a black kid gets into ANY trouble, they are labeled "thugs" or future prison inmates....

    THAT was real problem being covered up here with a lame excuse of non-compliance.



    Vastmindvinlyn
  • ToshTosh Veteran
    @MaryAnne

    This is what the article says:
    A letter from Anthony’s doctors says, “Anthony is not a transplant candidate due to having a history of noncompliance.”

    What doctors are saying is that they don’t think Anthony will be willing or able to follow through with aftercare. They’re concerned, for example, that he won’t take prescribed medications or that he’ll miss follow-up appointments.
    I'm just going from the information provided, but here it says Anthony's doctor said he has a history of noncompliance.

    I'm guessing that organs are in short supply and someone will die because they won't receive a transplant. On that basis, I would assume it's correct to give an organ to the best possible candidate.

    I reserve the right to change my mind, however I would be surprised if this was a skin colour issue, but that could be because I find it difficult to believe that this superficial nonsense would be taken into account when it comes to medical priority.
    kayte
  • @Tosh also from the article:

    "But Hamilton says doctors have no evidence to suggest that, since Anthony has no history of illness. She believes that the hospital is punishing her son for run-ins with the law. When he was admitted to the hospital, he was wearing an ankle monitor because he’d been placed under house arrest for a recent fight.

    "He’s a young boy,” Hamilton said. “He's going to make mistakes, but I still think he deserves a second chance."

    I chose to read between all the lines here, consider everything said by both sides, and frankly, I believe the mother's version.
    Also considering the Hospital administration backed off their (racially biased?) assumptions about a 15 yr old kid and decided he WOULD get the transplant tells me the excuse was bogus to begin with. If they really were making a MEDICALLY determined decision, they would have stuck to it.... they would have had to.
    Tosh
  • jlljll Veteran
    so, exactly what is your view?

    it is easy to say, stuff happens...
    or, it was just a random event.

    or are you just saying, " i dont know".


    Tosh said:

    jll said:

    for some people, if you ask them why are some people born
    without arms and legs. or why 2 girls born to the same parents,
    one is attractive and one is ugly?
    they will say genetics or i dont know.

    well, if you ask buddha the same question, he will say it is due
    to their karma.

    Karma is a complex subject and there's many different views. Some views are quite mechanical, for example I once heard a monk explaining that if we had our wallet stolen, that was because we had stole a wallet in this or a previous life. But other views aren't as rigid as this.

    I'm pretty sure there's a school of thought that karma is an explanation of our genetic inheritance and our experiences; but I'm a bit vague on that.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Tosh said:

    If there is one heart available for transplant and two people to give it to, would you give it to the person who has a history of not following medical advice, or to the other who has a good history of doing the stuff they should?

    I'm glad I don't have to make these tough decisions, but I'm also glad there's people who can make them.

    I would give it to the person who had the best chance of surviving. But in this particular case, it was demonstrated that the idea that the boy had not followed through with previous medical directions was untrue.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Tosh said:


    Karma is a complex subject and there's many different views. Some views are quite mechanical, for example I once heard a monk explaining that if we had our wallet stolen, that was because we had stole a wallet in this or a previous life. But other views aren't as rigid as this.

    I'm pretty sure there's a school of thought that karma is an explanation of our genetic inheritance and our experiences; but I'm a bit vague on that.

    I'm glad that you mentioned this. There are quite a few people, including on this forum, who have the idea that there is one concept of how karma works, and that -- of course -- that concept is the one that they hold.

    In reality, to some extent, there is an old world and a new world view of karma, and the two are very different.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Tosh said:

    @MaryAnne

    This is what the article says:

    A letter from Anthony’s doctors says, “Anthony is not a transplant candidate due to having a history of noncompliance.”

    What doctors are saying is that they don’t think Anthony will be willing or able to follow through with aftercare. They’re concerned, for example, that he won’t take prescribed medications or that he’ll miss follow-up appointments.
    I'm just going from the information provided, but here it says Anthony's doctor said he has a history of noncompliance.

    I'm guessing that organs are in short supply and someone will die because they won't receive a transplant. On that basis, I would assume it's correct to give an organ to the best possible candidate.

    I reserve the right to change my mind, however I would be surprised if this was a skin colour issue, but that could be because I find it difficult to believe that this superficial nonsense would be taken into account when it comes to medical priority.

    You need to take a look at the second article, where the noncompliance issue was put to rest as being untrue.

    Tosh
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited August 2013
    Oh, come on! This is so obviously a case of racism! There's no excuse for denying him a place on the transplant list. This is outrageous! Doctors have designated this sentient being as a throw-away kid. This is a lawsuit begging to happen. :mad:
    vinlynVictoriouslobster
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    edited August 2013
    jll said:

    for some people, if you ask them why are some people born
    without arms and legs. or why 2 girls born to the same parents,
    one is attractive and one is ugly?
    they will say genetics or i dont know.

    well, if you ask buddha the same question, he will say it is due
    to their karma.

    He wont you know...what the Buddha DID say was that there were a number of causes for any particular phenomenon and that karma-vipaka was just one of them. And that speculation about what was and what was not karma-vipaka was papanca.
    According to Buddhist thought there are five classes of the causes of any given phenomenon.
    They are called the Niyamas.
    Kamma-Niyama is the third of these Niyamas.
    The others include physical/biological factors and psychological factors.
    So when we encounter a particular condition or set of conditions we cannot know which of the Niyamas is in play and the Buddha strongly advised against trying...he included such speculation among the ' Imponderables.'
    robotriverflow
  • jlljll Veteran
    I believe there is some confusion here
    regarding the imponderable workings of
    kamma.
    Buddha was clear about the effects of evil kamma.

    "due to some evil kamma, she was reborn as a sow. Ananda! Look, on account of good and evil kamma there is no end of the round of existences." ~ Dhammapada 338.

    The imponderable Buddha referred to is we cant know exactly which
    past evil kamma caused the present suffering.
    But it is NOT imponderable that someone has accumulated evil kamma
    to be born in a state of suffering.
  • jlljll Veteran
    If one wrongs a person who should not be wronged, one who is pure and is free from moral defilements, the evil falls back upon that fool, like fine dust thrown against the wind. ~Dhammapada 125.

    This is another example where Buddha talked about the
    results of bad kamma.
  • What if the outcome was not as one expected and life does seem "unfair"?

    We all know of such instances and for that reason the Buddha said -
    "There are these four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them. Which four?


    "The [precise working out of the] results of kamma...


    "These are the four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them."

    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.077.than.html
    AN 4.77
    For that reason he taught the 4NT.

    Suffering
    The origin of suffering
    The cessation of suffering
    The path to cessation

    “I teach one thing and one thing only, suffering and the end of suffering.”



    mfranzdorfkarmablues
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    pegembara, I have known many people who conjectured about karma, and none of them have gotten to "madness and vexation", so let's just toss out that old chestnut right from the start.

    Secondly, I declare that I have the right to think, and not Buddha or anyone else is going to tell me otherwise.

    Have you given up freedom of thought?
  • robotrobot Veteran
    jll said:

    I believe there is some confusion here
    regarding the imponderable workings of
    kamma.
    Buddha was clear about the effects of evil kamma.

    "due to some evil kamma, she was reborn as a sow. Ananda! Look, on account of good and evil kamma there is no end of the round of existences." ~ Dhammapada 338.

    The imponderable Buddha referred to is we cant know exactly which
    past evil kamma caused the present suffering.
    But it is NOT imponderable that someone has accumulated evil kamma
    to be born in a state of suffering.

    Good for scaring children. Doesn't hold up to much close scrutiny.
    Isn't being born suffering by Buddhist definition?
    What is it that makes good kamma preferable to evil kamma when they both result in no end to the round of existences?
    What if an unfortunate birth is the ideal condition for realization for the individual who is suffering? So his evil actions are the cause of his awakening.
    It's fair to say that someone who has committed a terrible sin may have an unfortunate birth. Still only guessing though.
    It's not right to say that someone who is suffering now from something unconnected to any of their actions is being punished for their evil kamma, because we can't know the outcome of their experience of suffering.
    riverflowlobsterCittakarmablues
  • vinlyn said:

    pegembara, I have known many people who conjectured about karma, and none of them have gotten to "madness and vexation", so let's just toss out that old chestnut right from the start.

    Secondly, I declare that I have the right to think, and not Buddha or anyone else is going to tell me otherwise.

    Have you given up freedom of thought?

    I have also known those who have.

    So is life fair or unfair? What do you think?
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    Life is absolutely always exactly in accordance with the prevailing conditions. Always.
    pegembarariverflowkarmablues
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    jll said:

    I believe there is some confusion here
    regarding the imponderable workings of
    kamma.
    Buddha was clear about the effects of evil kamma.

    "due to some evil kamma, she was reborn as a sow. Ananda! Look, on account of good and evil kamma there is no end of the round of existences." ~ Dhammapada 338.

    The imponderable Buddha referred to is we cant know exactly which
    past evil kamma caused the present suffering.
    But it is NOT imponderable that someone has accumulated evil kamma
    to be born in a state of suffering.

    I dont know where you are getting your translation from . ' Evil' is not found in any translation that I know. What the Pali says is 'latent craving'..
    Secondly @jll I would be interested in your views of the Niyamas.
    riverflow
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    What verse 338 ( Dhammapada ) actually refers to is the action of tanha which literally means 'thirst'..this is translated as 'latent craving' or as the 'desire for becoming'.
    This is what propels the drive for 'rebecoming ' or tanhabhava.
    Whether one sees this as from moment to moment or post-mortem.
    There is no suggestion of 'evil' in the Pali. That suggests a translation which is over influenced by concepts that are not found in Dharma .
    riverflow
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    riverflow said:



    The Buddha didn't say karma explained everything that happens. This abuses the meaning of "karma" and undermines the role karma plays in Buddhist practice:

    And it's impossible to say which is which, unless you have a "divine eye". The kid having a bad heart could easily be a result of karma, or not. The kid not getting on the list could easily be a result of karma, or not. The kid getting on the list could easily be a result of karma, or not.

    But at the same time the Budda says:
    "There is the case, student, where a woman or man is a killer of living beings, ...Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of the body, after death, he/she reappears in the plane of deprivation... instead of reappearing in the plane of deprivation... he/she comes to the human state, then he/she is short-lived wherever reborn. This is the way leading to a short life: to be a killer of living beings..."

    "There is the case where a woman or man is one who harms beings with his/her fists, with clods, with sticks, or with knives. Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of the body, after death, he/she reappears in the plane of deprivation... If instead he/she comes to the human state, then he/she is sickly wherever reborn. This is the way leading to sickliness: to be one who harms beings with one's fists, with clods, with sticks, or with knives.
    Is it karma? Maybe

    vinlynkarmablues
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    vinlyn said:


    Secondly, I declare that I have the right to think, and not Buddha or anyone else is going to tell me otherwise.

    Sure, but you don't have to believe everything you think.
    pegembaralobster
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    Thats a fact.
  • The only approach that helps other than hopelessly trying to guess the answer is why do we seek answers to such questions in the first place. It all goes back to the 4 NT.
    "Bhikkhus, I will expound new kamma, old kamma, the cessation of kamma and the way leading to the cessation of kamma ... What is old kamma? Eye ... ear ... nose ... tongue ... body ... mind should be understood as old kamma, these being formed from conditions, born of volition, and the base of feeling. This is called 'old kamma.'

    "Bhikkhus, what is 'new kamma'? Actions created through body, speech and mind in the present moment, these are called 'new kamma.'

    "Bhikkhus, what is the cessation of kamma? The experience of liberation arising from the cessation of bodily kamma, verbal kamma and mental kamma, is called the cessation of kamma.

    "Bhikkhus, what is the way leading to the cessation of kamma? This is the Noble Eightfold Path, namely, Right View ... Right Concentration. This is called the way leading to the cessation of kamma."
    Victoriouskarmablues
  • jlljll Veteran
    would you rather be born healthy and good-looking
    or born blind and ugly?

    if you want to call it punishment that;s up to you.
    but that is not what i choose to call it.

    is a person who abused drugs and now suffering from
    poor memory and trembling hands being punished?
    no, its just the results of drug abuse damaging his brain.

    that is how kamma is, not a form of punishment
    but the result of past actions.

    robot said:

    jll said:

    I believe there is some confusion here
    regarding the imponderable workings of
    kamma.
    Buddha was clear about the effects of evil kamma.

    "due to some evil kamma, she was reborn as a sow. Ananda! Look, on account of good and evil kamma there is no end of the round of existences." ~ Dhammapada 338.

    The imponderable Buddha referred to is we cant know exactly which
    past evil kamma caused the present suffering.
    But it is NOT imponderable that someone has accumulated evil kamma
    to be born in a state of suffering.

    Good for scaring children. Doesn't hold up to much close scrutiny.
    Isn't being born suffering by Buddhist definition?
    What is it that makes good kamma preferable to evil kamma when they both result in no end to the round of existences?
    What if an unfortunate birth is the ideal condition for realization for the individual who is suffering? So his evil actions are the cause of his awakening.
    It's fair to say that someone who has committed a terrible sin may have an unfortunate birth. Still only guessing though.
    It's not right to say that someone who is suffering now from something unconnected to any of their actions is being punished for their evil kamma, because we can't know the outcome of their experience of suffering.
  • robotrobot Veteran
    jll said:

    would you rather be born healthy and good-looking
    or born blind and ugly?

    if you want to call it punishment that;s up to you.
    but that is not what i choose to call it.

    is a person who abused drugs and now suffering from
    poor memory and trembling hands being punished?
    no, its just the results of drug abuse damaging his brain.

    that is how kamma is, not a form of punishment
    but the result of past actions.



    robot said:

    jll said:

    I believe there is some confusion here
    regarding the imponderable workings of
    kamma.
    Buddha was clear about the effects of evil kamma.

    "due to some evil kamma, she was reborn as a sow. Ananda! Look, on account of good and evil kamma there is no end of the round of existences." ~ Dhammapada 338.

    The imponderable Buddha referred to is we cant know exactly which
    past evil kamma caused the present suffering.
    But it is NOT imponderable that someone has accumulated evil kamma
    to be born in a state of suffering.

    Good for scaring children. Doesn't hold up to much close scrutiny.
    Isn't being born suffering by Buddhist definition?
    What is it that makes good kamma preferable to evil kamma when they both result in no end to the round of existences?
    What if an unfortunate birth is the ideal condition for realization for the individual who is suffering? So his evil actions are the cause of his awakening.
    It's fair to say that someone who has committed a terrible sin may have an unfortunate birth. Still only guessing though.
    It's not right to say that someone who is suffering now from something unconnected to any of their actions is being punished for their evil kamma, because we can't know the outcome of their experience of suffering.
    The point is we are all born in a state of suffering.
    Being born handsome and wealthy is not a ticket to enlightenment.
    Being born into unfortunate circumstances may even be more conducive to awakening.
    There is no benefit in pondering whether or not someone is suffering from some evil kamma.
    It does not tell you anything.
    You don't have to be a Buddhist to know that you can ruin your body in any number of ways you choose.
    riverflowkayteKundo
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    edited August 2013
    To repeat my request @jll I would be interested to hear your views on the Niyamas , of which kamma-Niyama ( karma ) is just one.
    riverflow
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    pegembara said:

    vinlyn said:

    pegembara, I have known many people who conjectured about karma, and none of them have gotten to "madness and vexation", so let's just toss out that old chestnut right from the start.

    Secondly, I declare that I have the right to think, and not Buddha or anyone else is going to tell me otherwise.

    Have you given up freedom of thought?

    I have also known those who have.

    So is life fair or unfair? What do you think?
    I asked if you have given up freedom of thought.

    Yes, sometimes life is unfair.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Citta said:

    Life is absolutely always exactly in accordance with the prevailing conditions. Always.

    What does that mean?
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    vinlyn said:


    Secondly, I declare that I have the right to think, and not Buddha or anyone else is going to tell me otherwise.

    Sure, but you don't have to believe everything you think.
    Did I say you did?

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Florian said:

    In addition, it may be that in a previous life the kid was in an even worse situation but earned himself a better life this time, just not a perfect one. We see him as suffering because of Karma, but maybe he's actually on an upwards trajectory. Maybe he's almost a Buddha but just needed one more unpleasant lesson. It's hopeless guessing about these things.

    See, now that's a reasonable statement -- that, "It's hopeless guessing about these things."

    Yet, you just did, and I don't think you went mad or were vexated.

  • jlljll Veteran
    If there is no benefit, why did buddha talk about it?
    robot said:

    jll said:

    would you rather be born healthy and good-looking
    or born blind and ugly?

    if you want to call it punishment that;s up to you.
    but that is not what i choose to call it.

    is a person who abused drugs and now suffering from
    poor memory and trembling hands being punished?
    no, its just the results of drug abuse damaging his brain.

    that is how kamma is, not a form of punishment
    but the result of past actions.



    robot said:

    jll said:

    I believe there is some confusion here
    regarding the imponderable workings of
    kamma.
    Buddha was clear about the effects of evil kamma.

    "due to some evil kamma, she was reborn as a sow. Ananda! Look, on account of good and evil kamma there is no end of the round of existences." ~ Dhammapada 338.

    The imponderable Buddha referred to is we cant know exactly which
    past evil kamma caused the present suffering.
    But it is NOT imponderable that someone has accumulated evil kamma
    to be born in a state of suffering.

    Good for scaring children. Doesn't hold up to much close scrutiny.
    Isn't being born suffering by Buddhist definition?
    What is it that makes good kamma preferable to evil kamma when they both result in no end to the round of existences?
    What if an unfortunate birth is the ideal condition for realization for the individual who is suffering? So his evil actions are the cause of his awakening.
    It's fair to say that someone who has committed a terrible sin may have an unfortunate birth. Still only guessing though.
    It's not right to say that someone who is suffering now from something unconnected to any of their actions is being punished for their evil kamma, because we can't know the outcome of their experience of suffering.
    The point is we are all born in a state of suffering.
    Being born handsome and wealthy is not a ticket to enlightenment.
    Being born into unfortunate circumstances may even be more conducive to awakening.
    There is no benefit in pondering whether or not someone is suffering from some evil kamma.
    It does not tell you anything.
    You don't have to be a Buddhist to know that you can ruin your body in any number of ways you choose.
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    Why did the Buddha talk about the Niyamas @jll ?
  • robotrobot Veteran
    edited August 2013
    jll said:

    If there is no benefit, why did buddha talk about it?


    robot said:

    jll said:

    would you rather be born healthy and good-looking
    or born blind and ugly?

    if you want to call it punishment that;s up to you.
    but that is not what i choose to call it.

    is a person who abused drugs and now suffering from
    poor memory and trembling hands being punished?
    no, its just the results of drug abuse damaging his brain.

    that is how kamma is, not a form of punishment
    but the result of past actions.



    robot said:

    jll said:

    I believe there is some confusion here
    regarding the imponderable workings of
    kamma.
    Buddha was clear about the effects of evil kamma.

    "due to some evil kamma, she was reborn as a sow. Ananda! Look, on account of good and evil kamma there is no end of the round of existences." ~ Dhammapada 338.

    The imponderable Buddha referred to is we cant know exactly which
    past evil kamma caused the present suffering.
    But it is NOT imponderable that someone has accumulated evil kamma
    to be born in a state of suffering.

    Good for scaring children. Doesn't hold up to much close scrutiny.
    Isn't being born suffering by Buddhist definition?
    What is it that makes good kamma preferable to evil kamma when they both result in no end to the round of existences?
    What if an unfortunate birth is the ideal condition for realization for the individual who is suffering? So his evil actions are the cause of his awakening.
    It's fair to say that someone who has committed a terrible sin may have an unfortunate birth. Still only guessing though.
    It's not right to say that someone who is suffering now from something unconnected to any of their actions is being punished for their evil kamma, because we can't know the outcome of their experience of suffering.
    The point is we are all born in a state of suffering.
    Being born handsome and wealthy is not a ticket to enlightenment.
    Being born into unfortunate circumstances may even be more conducive to awakening.
    There is no benefit in pondering whether or not someone is suffering from some evil kamma.
    It does not tell you anything.
    You don't have to be a Buddhist to know that you can ruin your body in any number of ways you choose.
    To scare children.
    "Look at how that evil drug addict is shaking and is depraved. Don't take drugs."
    "Don't lie or steal or you will go to hell."
    So, I guess there is a benefit for some people.
  • pegembarapegembara Veteran
    edited August 2013
    vinlyn said:

    pegembara said:

    vinlyn said:

    pegembara, I have known many people who conjectured about karma, and none of them have gotten to "madness and vexation", so let's just toss out that old chestnut right from the start.

    Secondly, I declare that I have the right to think, and not Buddha or anyone else is going to tell me otherwise.

    Have you given up freedom of thought?

    I have also known those who have.

    So is life fair or unfair? What do you think?
    I asked if you have given up freedom of thought.

    Yes, sometimes life is unfair.

    How do you answer someone who has horrible things happen to them when they ask why? Do you think your answer helps? Why is there pain and suffering? Why is there aging, sickness and death?

    Have you actually given thought to these questions?
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