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see/hear/talk and have to take medication

if
you see things that others do not see
you hear things that others do not hear

when you talk about those others think that you have to see a doctor

the doctor prescribes some medication


by all means take the medication



but you have one more thing to do

talk to a 'vipassana (Insight) meditation teacher'
and
start INSIGHT meditation

why i say this?
during the morning meditation i reveal 'something regarding to this' today

Comments

  • Que?
    If you are delusional, meditation may aggravate your delusions or at best mask them
    http://downthecrookedpath-meditation-gurus.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/meditation-related-psychosis-from.html

    Some insight teachers are self medicating, using 'Insight Meditation'. Be careful. Delusion and masking symptoms is no substitute for appropriate care.

    I appreciate you are saying something but what? The importance of taking medicine where appropriate? Yes. Most certainly. Delusion people can not judge their requirements.

    Can a good teacher help? Most definitely. Doctor first. Dharma doctor second.

    Stay Well. :thumbup:
    CittaJainarayanpyramidsong
  • appreciate your contribution

    medication helps to balance the brain chemical reaction

    that is all that medication can do

    worldly studies (like Phd) can provide a limited worldly knowledge after coming to a conclusion taking limited number of cases as facts

    in Dhamma language worldly studies provide more 'perceptions' (sanna)
    and
    such perception helps more thinking - reaction in the mind (sankhara)


    there is another part that should be look into in such cases where there is the previous kamma involved
    for that part one has to turn into 'Insight' meditation

    practising four types of Mindfulness is the 'insight' meditation

    if anybody interested
    first find and read 'sthipattana sutta'
    and try to practice it

    Four types of mindfulness:
    Mindfulness of the body
    Mindfulness of the feeling
    Mindfulness of the mind
    Mindfulness of the thoughts

    Victoriousseeker242
  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran
    Most of those that see and hear things others do not do not need medication since they hear and see pleasant things. Or so I have heard. Vipassana is never wrong. What did you learn? Would you care to share?
  • of course i would like to share

    but i thought if i shared it with you all so many would distracted from Dhamma thoughts and would more and more entangle with unskillful words, thoughts and write them in the forum and then many would still more and more entangle with unskillful words and thoughts and write them in the forum

    in short, if not let go of what i wrote/write each would fall into Dependent Origination again and again

    that is why i invite you who ever had the 'seeing and hearing' condition to practise and see the Truth in it

    now what i have learnt during the meditation:
    Buddha says 'there is six Element'

    that is true
    there is six element in each and every moment we feel (pleasant/unpleasant/neither-nor-pleasant)
    feeling comes when internal and external sens bases meet and the conscioussness occure (thinnan sangathi passo)
    there are five elements (earth/water/fire/air) everywhere (space) but consciousness is with living beings only

    'seeing and hearing' condition happens to people who have develop their mind faculty
    if the development is in this life we call he/she has special powers like 'Dinamo'

    if the developed mind 'see and hear things' and talk about it with those who have no knowledge of 'previous kamma and kamma vipaka of this moment' they think this person has problems with his mind

    so they ask to see a doctor,
    that is a good thing because by this time the person who 'see and hear things' does not know of his previous kamma and kamma vipaka and there is no teacher to guide him into the Path
    why he cannot find a teacher if he has already developed his mind?
    that is because he had not fulfill his virtue before
    (you know there are yogis who develop there mind and gain power to change four elements using there mind but they do not have Right View
    if there is no Right View it is inevitable one can not fulfill virtue)

    today science, give different names to these type of mental states, like 'bypolar', schisoprenia, mania etc

    during the meditation it is revealed:
    due to poor virtues life one get imbalance chemistry in the brain
    and
    due to ones effort of mind development one has developed mind and able to see and hear things that others can not see and here

    if one get help and start to 'Investigate one's body, feeling, mind and thought' (Dhamma viccaya- one of the Bojjanga) one will be able to get the Right View
    if one get the Right View one can fullfill one's virtue
    so one is in the 'Path' which is leading to Nibbana

    there is no doubt about this
    Victorious
  • What does seeing and hearing mean? I have voices with actual personalities in my head. Are you saying that I stumbled somehow in my mind to perceive these voices but I don't have enough virtue?
  • ....While such states may need treatment, and may cause harm to oneself, know that such things never lessen who you are as a person. Nor do they affect your ability to attain wisdom. U shall have the same uphill battle to wisdom as the rest of us have.
    Our challenges are different, that's all.
  • Jeffrey said:

    What does seeing and hearing mean?

    some people talk about 'seeing things' that nobody around them cannot see
    some people talk with 'people' who are not to be seen by others


    I have voices with actual personalities in my head. Are you saying that I stumbled somehow in my mind to perceive these voices but I don't have enough virtue?
    if it is a problem to you now (Dukka), you had done something wrong before
    make an effort to fulfill your virtue,
    you will be in the Path (or try to enter to the Path) now

    whatever unskillful kamma you have done in the past (upto this moment) can not be change now
    so no need to think about it now
    instead try to make skillfull thoughts all the time

    Victorious
  • .. such things never lessen who you are as a person.

    actually such condition can be increased in a positive way by involving in wholesome words, deeds and thoughts

    such people can improved their
    eye faculty (dibba chakku)
    ear faculty (dibba sotha)
    if the get an advice from a 'good' vipassana meditation teacher

    Victorious
  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran
    edited September 2013
    Thank you very much @upekka!

    That did lift some questions for me.

    What you are saying is that this condition is predicted by the sangha and that the dhamma teches a way of coping and even mastering it.

    And also you say:

    There is a way to not be bothered by it (virtue of mind,speech and body?) so learn it and now get back to cultivation!
    :)

    Thank you again and much fortune in your cultivation!

    /Victor
  • upekka said:

    .. such things never lessen who you are as a person.

    actually such can be increased in a positive way by involving in wholesome words, deeds and thoughts

    such people can improved their
    eye faculty (dibba chakku)
    ear faculty (dibba sotha)
    if the get an advice from a 'good' vipassana meditation teacher

    I don't put much stock in the labels that psychiatry puts on people's states..people in distress do not need the 'sick' label. The term, 'illness' does not do their crisis and suffering justice.

    But I do know that this area is very sensitive and we should be careful about these things. Many serious wounds are not visible. If someone is destabilized by anomalous sensory events, attempted enhancement of faculty may further worsen the matter.
    Meditative efforts to increase homogeneity of input streams and their corresponding mental processes may be advised in situations where unknown factors may cause periods of varying degrees of instability.


  • Could I have telepathy or is the 'hearing' just like coming from my own consciousness?
  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran
    Jeffrey said:

    Could I have telepathy or is the 'hearing' just like coming from my own consciousness?

    I think what upekkha is saying, and I agree, is that not to worry about that so much but get on with your cultivation.

    It is not recommended to persue such thing just because it will divert you from the path.

    IMO of course.

    /Victor

  • if it is a problem to you now (Dukka), you had done something wrong before
    make an effort to fulfill your virtue,
    you will be in the Path (or try to enter to the Path) now
    There are people dying here. There are people with mental health issues and you offer?
    'Your child must die because it was bad in a previous life?' 'Jesus done it for the child's good', is equally ignorant superstition. This is the Buddhism of the ignorant. It does not gel with my understanding of reality, common experience and a more developed world view.

    You may be right. It is possible. I doubt it.

    However you sound to me, most unkindly deluded. This is the false dharma of false hope. All will be well in heaven, the next life or if we pray to [insert the powerless idle idol].

    Be a mensch. Accept the first Noble Truth. Existence involves unsatisfactoriness. It has causes, not soul migration across foetuses. That is a fairy story for primitive people. Does it appeal to you? Then consider why I have insulted you and your hinyana so badly . . .

    Within our circumstances, however difficult, we have water (dharma) for plants. That also means making extensive use of the available resources of medicine, child care, economic and social reform etc. - these too have a virtue and 'dharma'.

    The Sufis have a saying, 'trust in God but tether your camel first'. In dharma terms this means dealing with where you are, who you are, with all the worldly resources available. Also practising virtue, meditation and mindfulness because it will offer the alleviation of your unsatisfactory understanding . . . To place it in other terms, 'You render unto Caesars what is Caesars'

    If you have mental health issues. Sort them. If medicine is available for your seeing things, depression etc, take it. If your child is dying take it to a monk, rinpoche or witch after seeing the doctor . . .
    Are you an alcoholic? Then you must confront this with AA and similar resources first. The dharma is no substitute for appropriate means.

    [disengage wrathful mode]

    :wave:
  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran
    @lobster

    Bad kammafruit is anything that keeps you from the Goal. It is due to volitional unskillfull action in mind, speech or body. The skillfull action is taught to relieve you of that obstacle.

    This has nothing to do with previous lifes nor children but an actual situation Jeffrey is asking about.

    But yes medication should be taken for illness. The Dhamma teaches that too.

    No need for wrathful mode. lol.

    /Victor
  • lobster said:



    Can a good teacher help? Most definitely. Doctor first. Dharma doctor second.

    Stay Well. :thumbup:

    I appreciate what you're doing in this thread, but I'm uncomfortable about the big push to consult modern medical on psychiatric issues.
    Why not advise that the person go about a systematic process to assist stabilization. Assuming the situation is not crisis level, encourage agressive regulation and monitoring of diet, stimulus, intoxicants, stimulants, sleep patterns, activity, responsible counseling, You might as well because I bet the psychiatrist didn't...you see it's far easier to bash someone's brain chemistry in with blunt chemical tools that they don't even understand. akin to trying to fix a car by tightening random bolts and banging on stuff with a wrench. We cannot advise against psych consults here, its irresponsible.. but I think its our duty to instill a degree of caution when about it. How many people were lobotomized for unusual behavior because it was scientifically accepted at the time... and thats a nightmarish failure , lack of common sense we tend to downplay. If you think they aren't still playing with fire with designer chems you're delusional yourself, and if you think that they do everything they can to avoid the use of drugs and stabilize people with practical means first then...well, you get the idea.; "Warning, do not trust implicitly" should be a title worn by certain highly paid godlike professionals in this society.

  • But yes medication should be taken for illness. The Dhamma teaches that too.

    No need for wrathful mode. lol.
    :)

    Cause and effect is a useful teaching but some causes are to do with a complex of influences, from childhood development and increasingly understood reasons. Not Cods will or our sinful life as a fish.

    This is why we ground ourself in our present dukkha and make effort. That is our potential and great opportunity . . . was I too fierce?

    Must stop having picnics in hell. Those demons sure are a bad influence . . . ;)

  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran
    Not to fierce for me no but upekka is pretty cautios. However when she says something I often find there is a lot of tought behind it. I would rather have upekka saying more than less... thats all.

    And while we are not on the subject, why does a buddhist lobster like to talk about Cod so much?

    Vaya con Bacalao
    Victor
  • And while we are not on the subject, why does a buddhist lobster like to talk about Cod so much?
    Karma. ;)

    I engage the wrathful but it is not directed individually. It is to ensure people look after themselves and do not substitute inappropriate alternatives. Meditation and practice is complimentary and reduces suffering. No doubt. First response is real external need assessment and action . . . :wave:
  • TravellerTraveller East Midlands UK Veteran
    People are suffering because they were born, pure and simple and besides not everything that happens is down to Karma.

    http://buddhism.about.com/od/basicbuddhistteachings/tp/The-Five-Niyamas.htm

    Personally my own mental illness is karmic in a way if I hadn't stuffed all those drugs up my nose, smoke myself stupid and swallowed enough mushrooms to knock out an entire rock festival full of hippies I doubt I'd need injecting in the ass once a fortnight.

    However Buddhist practice does help the ability to let go of disturbed thoughts has been a great boon to me.

    There was a study at the University of Michigan that Metta practice reverses some of the anhedonia caused by anti-psychotics and it certainly helps with depression.

    I also find pure land chanting combines with mindful breathing and walking lifts my spirits.

    Namu Amida Bu
    Victoriouslobster
  • lobster said:



    Can a good teacher help? Most definitely. Doctor first. Dharma doctor second.

    Stay Well. :thumbup:

    I appreciate what you're doing in this thread, but I'm uncomfortable about the big push to consult modern medical on psychiatric issues.
    Why not advise that the person go about a systematic process to assist stabilization. Assuming the situation is not crisis level, encourage agressive regulation and monitoring of diet, stimulus, intoxicants, stimulants, sleep patterns, activity, responsible counseling, You might as well because I bet the psychiatrist didn't...you see it's far easier to bash someone's brain chemistry in with blunt chemical tools that they don't even understand. akin to trying to fix a car by tightening random bolts and banging on stuff with a wrench. We cannot advise against psych consults here, its irresponsible.. but I think its our duty to instill a degree of caution when about it. How many people were lobotomized for unusual behavior because it was scientifically accepted at the time... and thats a nightmarish failure , lack of common sense we tend to downplay. If you think they aren't still playing with fire with designer chems you're delusional yourself, and if you think that they do everything they can to avoid the use of drugs and stabilize people with practical means first then...well, you get the idea.; "Warning, do not trust implicitly" should be a title worn by certain highly paid godlike professionals in this society.

    I like that oceancaldera. But my story with medicine is a huge success story. I am WAY happier now than before medicine. And I do exercise and eat relatively right. I eat what's served but I eat more portions of healthy stuff and my snacks are highly healthy. Have you read Dean Ornish book on diet? It is really good. He first points out that there is a spectrum of health and just because you don't eat perfect on the spectrum you can find middle ground. Of course he also points out that most diseases can benefit or even be turned around by diet. Schizophrenia is a pretty good example of a disease of the mind where you really benefit from medicine.
    Victoriouslobster
  • I really want to reply but too busy! Back later!
    Victorious
  • oceancaldera207oceancaldera207 Veteran
    edited September 2013
    Yeah Jeffery I have intimate contact with schizophrenia, had a girlfriend once. All I'm going to say is, she definitely needed treatment, she couldn't manage life without it..but I know the medication changed her as well...to the point that she isn't the same person. Its hard to say what she needed, what would have been best, but i will say that I knew her very well, and I know that it wasn't just a brain chemistry problem. There was an emotional aspect to it, and it was never adressed... Wether they could have or not Idk, shes stubborn as hell for one thing. All I know is, meds basically stabilized her...she's not as erratic anymore, but she's not healthy. Shes a zombie compared to her former self.

    My main issue with psych com is the antidepressant use. :orange: very very weird stuff going on there. I think its very prudent to be selective about drs if possible, to educate yourself as much as possible, and to remember that the doctor shouldnt just be treating u, you should be working together to treat you. I'm definitely not saying one should avoid treatment and consultation.

    Anyway, main topic.. I can hear my own thoughts if I pay attention, and sometimes I can hear my ex girlfriends voice in my head scolding me about household things. Would the psych community consider that borderline schizophrenia? I'm being serious because it seems their definition of illness is pretty broad. I think I might have 'sitting on the john and posting on message board disorder.' It has become frequent, like once sometimes twice a day depending on diet. Is that one in the DSM yet?
    lobster
  • Oh @Jeffery about the diet thing, u may eat well, ok that's one of the things I mentioned, but what about your constant stimulant use? Have they adressed that or asked if intake of caffeine and nicotine has increased relative to your med dosings? How about sleep patterns? Is your exercise vigorous? These are questions they should be asking. Drugs are not a panacea, and self analysis and some sort of practice have a lot to give to healing process. They arent just a side note to the chems.
  • that is true that not everything that happens is down to kamma
    there are four laws : utu niyama, dhamma niyama, kamma niyama and citta niyama

    if there is an earth-quake that has nothing to do with kamma
    but
    one is suffering because one's house is broken and one has no place to live and one's
    mind is stressful then there is kamma-vipaka
    but
    there could be another person whose house also broken but he gets a place to live and his mind is not stressful
    there may be another person whose house is broken and he does not get a place to live still his mind is not stressful

    looking at above three examples one can see three different people's mind react to the same earth-quake differently
    this has something to do with kamma and kamma-vipaka


    about 'wrathful' answer or 'not wrathful' answer
    where was that 'wrath' before writing to the forum?
    so who was suffering?
    where was the 'wrath' during the writing?
    so who was suffering>
    if one is suffering who was delusional?

    if one can maintain equanimity (upekkha = fourth jhana) then reading the 'wrathful' writing has nothing to do with one's mind and there is suffering


    to understand Dhamma, one has to take simple examples from one's own life and apply the learned Dhamma

    that is what i have been doing and i am doing and i know it is very much helpful
    Victorious
  • oceancaldera207oceancaldera207 Veteran
    edited September 2013
    Oh btw not asking you to give personal information...my questions are just something to consider.

    sigh, I could go on and on about this stuff for days but I'm moving from at the end of the month and I really should be packing instead of typing...I also have minor procrastination disorder hehe
  • With serious mental illness, the consequences of not taking medicine can be severe for the individual and others.
    I am supporting my sisters decision to not take medicine. Has it improved any part of her life? No. Is she capable of realising this? Maybe.
    Not easy.

    The sense of wellness is a broad spectrum. What I would suggest is we educate ourself and make full use of what is available. Vague intermittent Buddhist practice is like uninformed intermittent treatment, it often produces only vague intermittent results . . .
    :wave:
    Jeffrey
  • even monks are allowed to have the four basic needs of Food, Cloth, Shelter and Medicine

    there is no argument about taking medication for mental illness
    what i suggested was that try 'Insight' meditation which will help to develop your mind faculty in a positive way
    in other words, you have already come a long way of developingyour mind but you didn't or don't get the proper advise to go beyond from where you are now

    you yourself have to practice and see the result
    do not think to depend on other's stories
    Victorious
  • oceancaldera207oceancaldera207 Veteran
    edited September 2013
    lobster said:


    Not easy.
    :

    Agreed.

    My girlfriend. i loved her.. she would express herself in ways that frightened people, but that didn't mean she needed to treated like she was defective. She was intelligent and fierce enough not to be bothered much by it, but it made *me very upset. I was astounded at the dull rigidity, predictable judgements of people in reaction to her behavior..shameful. she never did anything to hurt anyone, but everyone treated her like she was utterly flawed and even as a criminal almost! From this person I had seen beautiful expressions of emotion and thought.. and I could feel the pain she was in because she described it abstractly and artistically..with precision..sometimes I was awestruck by the profundity of it. And the people treating her never had a clue who she was. Not the faintest clue. Now in a lot of ways she's gone.
    To this day I dont refer to her with the schizophrenic label, and I never will. I think to simplify her like that is a crime.

    Here's an article about it written by a PhD. I don't agree with everything in it, and I do see it from the other side too, but if some of the stuff in here doesn't make you raise your eyebrows, i'll eat my hat. The accounts of Carl Jungs attempts to deal w the institutional powers are pretty interesting.

    successfulschizophrenia.org/articles/wrong.html

    Also want to clarify that I'm not backing the OPs opinion on the matters of topic. And,. Anytime we start getting into thinking we can discuss karma in such a simple literal manner, its not good. I do believe in reincarnation, but I think this is not really discuss-able either...postulating beyond the basic is futile.
  • I have read many of Thomas Szasz's books and R D Lang, the anti psychiatry movement is probably further empowered on the net. It is certainly worthwhile to explore the limitations and understand the alternatives. I had a girl friend for a very short while who was in therapy from child hood abuse. She had regressed to child like behaviour. It always took me two hours of interaction before I was dealing with an adult. She never revealed the adult to therapists, friends or any one else but I refused in interact with her in private as a child.
    This is not the basis of a successful or possible relationship. Despite the fact that she was one of the most beautiful girls I have known. I say girl because she was twenty one when I knew her but talked like a child or new age hippy in la la land. I would not call her a woman. It was short lived and unsuccessful. She had done all the chasing, much like a child with a crush. She had mistaken kindness for attraction. She wrote to me recently, her writing was that of a disturbed twelve year old. It took me a while to decipher. I wrote back kindly but refused to meet her. I do not have the resources, skills or time to deal with her in the way she wants. When we split up I made it clear I did not want further interaction but she is 'child like' . . .
    I have had friends who go temporarily crazy. Even one who was a long term permanent resident in a mental hospital. All are people. All have worth, a voice, a story. Not all will be 'curable'.
    I have known only one successful schizophrenic, on the web, she hallucinated full people with voices, but had integrated this with a vajrayana practice, ran a Buddhist forum and was an alcoholic. I feel she helped a lot of people and was well aware of her strengths but not all her weaknesses.
    I consider myself border line crazy. It does not matter what labels we choose for ourselves. It does matter how others perceive us. We can learn from that.
    For example citta is an experienced psychiatrist who has issues with me. I consider him one of the most experienced practitioners on the forum. I have no issues with his experience and posts but he wishes to modify my delusional behaviour by not commenting on his posts which I was happy to agree to until he broke his own sanction. :rolleyes:
    Even the most able have issues and behaviour patterns to work out . . .

    Time for me to sit with my delusions . . . :wave:
    oceancaldera207
  • oceancaldera207oceancaldera207 Veteran
    edited September 2013
    Interesting. I could write a book about the person I was mentioning. Quite the mystery . She used to do some very...precognitive things... Sense of humor was absolutely wicked . There was never any illusion about relationship..I think she believed such triviality was for the weak. Also a pretty good basketball player.
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