Examples: Monday, today, last week, Mar 26, 3/26/04
Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@newbuddhist.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take up to 48 hours. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.

Working out Karma over many lifetimes.

LesCLesC Bermuda Veteran
edited September 2013 in Philosophy
I have a question that perhaps someone can comment on. As a young child (6/7/8) I had an unusual attachment/empathy/compassion for Native Americans, particularly the northern plains tribes (Lakota/Dakota/Cheyenne). As I grew my interest was more than casual, it bordered on obsessive. I read voraciously anything I could get my hands on, and studied their history, visited and stayed on reservations. I never knew where this came from, as I did not grow up in the US, and there were no immediate or obvious influences.

Over the years, whenever I was questioned on this obsession, I merely said "Oh, I must have been an Indian in a prior life!" Then at some point I saw a Time-Life documentary on the Sand Creek Massacre, where a force of 700 soldiers attacked a sleeping encampment of about 300 hundred Cheyenne. About 200 of the Cheyenne (mostly women and children) were slaughtered and mutilated in the early morning hours of November 29, 1864.

The documentary showed a photo of the commanding officer, Col. John M. Chivington responsible for the brutal attack. I was stunned. It was me. It didn't just look like me, it was my face. It could have been my identical twin. Now I recognize that just because someone in the past looks like you, doesn't necessarily mean they were you in a past life. But the resemblance was uncanny.

That got me to thinking... is it possible that it was me, and instead of my being an Indian in a prior life (as I had joked to explain my compassion and love of Indians), I had been this horrible creature, responsible for deaths of so many innocent Cheyenne lives? And could it be that maybe over many lifetimes I've been working trying to purify this Karma? It certainly would explain this unusual attachment I have to northern plains Indians. Also, another interesting coincidence... about 40 years ago, I was traveling the North Dakota/Montana territories, visiting famous Indian sites, when I came upon a school, run by the Catholics, dedicated to helping underprivileged/orphaned Cheyenne children. The school integrated Indian culture into the curriculum, and even the main Worship Hall was shaped like a huge TeePee. I was so impressed by the work being done there, and the way it was being done, that as soon as I was financially able I became a benefactor to the school, and remain so to this day. The coincidence is that they are mostly Cheyenne children, the same tribe horribly murdered by the troops under Chivington's command. I became a benefactor of this school long before I made the connection with Chivington.

So my question in a nutshell is... Does Karma work this way? Does it present you with the opportunity to purify it? You are free to do so or not? Because there is nothing that would suggest I had any connection at all to Native Americans, indeed there were races more closely associated with me that had also been brutalized, and to whom similar compassion would have been totally understandable. Could I have been this monster? Your thoughts and comments would be appreciated.

Les



«1

Comments

  • Straight_ManStraight_Man Gentle Man Punta Gorda, Florida, USA Veteran
    Some believe that indeed you can "purify" karma to a degree, though I have not heard of it being over a bridge of multiple lifetimes.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Let me tell you a somewhat similar wonderment I have had.

    I got hooked on going to Thailand starting about 1987. Although I didn't spend all summers there, I spent most summers there. A friend of mine in Virginia talked me into going to a psychic...he often went, and I thought it might be fun. While there I asked why did I have such an interest in Thai culture and history and want to go there every summer. Her response was, "You were there in a previous life. I see you in a temple, and that you have something to do with music." Yeah, right. About a year later my friend convinced me to go to another psychic...just for fun. Same scenario. Exact same response to that one question. Now, lest you think my friend was prepping the 2 psychics, about a year later I independently went to a psychic when I was in another city. Exact same scenario. Incidentally, for those who are into psychic stuff, the three psychics I visited were quite well known and respected...they weren't the $10 readings in a seedy neighborhood.

    And then another story. One day I took the train up to the Thai city of Lopburi. It now has a population of about 27,000, so it's not just a small village. The first temple ruins I visited were right next to the train station. As I gazed over the ruins I felt dizzy, and thought that those television antennas across the way "didn't belong there". I had a map from a magazine, but when I used it to find my next temple ruins, the map was all wrong and I was lost. I put the map back in my pocket and just started walking. A few minutes later I wound up at the temple ruins I had been seeking, without a map, and even though I had never been in the town before. I found all of the other temple ruins, an old palace, and other historical sites -- about a dozen sites in all -- without ever looking at a map or asking for directions. I just walked to one location after another. Dizzy the entire time until I was back on the train and out of the area, after which the dizziness dissipated.

    What does it mean? I don't know and am making no claim.

    Incidentally, I have been to the site of the Sand Creek Massacre, and although there is not a lot to see, it's instructive to be able to look over the site and get a sense of how it all progressed when you can see the geography. It is considered the worst of the massacres, and one that was the primary reason for much continued warring after that. That's certainly karma.

    Glad to hear you have an open mind about your experience!
    LesCcvalue
  • LesCLesC Bermuda Veteran
    edited September 2013
    It was twenty years ago when I first found the photograph, I was obviously twenty years younger and the resemblance was more striking. Here's the then and now shots.

    John Chivington                 Les Center
    robotBunkspegembara
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Wow...that is striking!
  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    A relatively recent bio-pic/documentary was broadcast about Rudyard Kipling's relationship with his son, Jack. It's one of the most moving dramas I have ever watched.

    The interesting thing is that the actor, David Haig, who played Kipling, looks remarkably and uncannily like Kipling.

    The programme was his concept and creation, and became almost an obsession for him to make.

    The extremely talented Daniel Ratcliffe, played Jack.

    Superbly, I might add.
  • I thank you for your courage
    to share your story.

    I think it is highly possible that you
    were connected to the Indians in your previous lives.

    However, your s will be the 1st case
    I have heard of that you look similar
    with the person in your previous life.

    I think you should find out as much as you can about
    Chivingston.

    In any case, kudos to you for what you are doing
    for the Indians.
    LesC said:

    I have a question that perhaps someone can comment on. As a young child (6/7/8) I had an unusual attachment/empathy/compassion for Native Americans, particularly the northern plains tribes (Lakota/Dakota/Cheyenne). As I grew my interest was more than casual, it bordered on obsessive. I read voraciously anything I could get my hands on, and studied their history, visited and stayed on reservations. I never knew where this came from, as I did not grow up in the US, and there were no immediate or obvious influences.

    Over the years, whenever I was questioned on this obsession, I merely said "Oh, I must have been an Indian in a prior life!" Then at some point I saw a Time-Life documentary on the Sand Creek Massacre, where a force of 700 soldiers attacked a sleeping encampment of about 300 hundred Cheyenne. About 200 of the Cheyenne (mostly women and children) were slaughtered and mutilated in the early morning hours of November 29, 1864.

    The documentary showed a photo of the commanding officer, Col. John M. Chivington responsible for the brutal attack. I was stunned. It was me. It didn't just look like me, it was my face. It could have been my identical twin. Now I recognize that just because someone in the past looks like you, doesn't necessarily mean they were you in a past life. But the resemblance was uncanny.

    That got me to thinking... is it possible that it was me, and instead of my being an Indian in a prior life (as I had joked to explain my compassion and love of Indians), I had been this horrible creature, responsible for deaths of so many innocent Cheyenne lives? And could it be that maybe over many lifetimes I've been working trying to purify this Karma? It certainly would explain this unusual attachment I have to northern plains Indians. Also, another interesting coincidence... about 40 years ago, I was traveling the North Dakota/Montana territories, visiting famous Indian sites, when I came upon a school, run by the Catholics, dedicated to helping underprivileged/orphaned Cheyenne children. The school integrated Indian culture into the curriculum, and even the main Worship Hall was shaped like a huge TeePee. I was so impressed by the work being done there, and the way it was being done, that as soon as I was financially able I became a benefactor to the school, and remain so to this day. The coincidence is that they are mostly Cheyenne children, the same tribe horribly murdered by the troops under Chivington's command. I became a benefactor of this school long before I made the connection with Chivington.

    So my question in a nutshell is... Does Karma work this way? Does it present you with the opportunity to purify it? You are free to do so or not? Because there is nothing that would suggest I had any connection at all to Native Americans, indeed there were races more closely associated with me that had also been brutalized, and to whom similar compassion would have been totally understandable. Could I have been this monster? Your thoughts and comments would be appreciated.

    Les



  • Ever since I was a kid I always took off my shoes first thing when I got home, although that wasn’t part of our culture. I practically always sat in a “Burmese” position. And also very much unlike my brothers and sisters, I never asked for the weekly two quarters of pocket money that I was entitled to.

    I remember I always dreamed of myself as a kid with black hair when actually I was blond. I clearly remember the dream in which this was repaired with a magic comb.

    Later in life I felt attracted to Judo, Tai Chi, Daoism and Zen.

    I’m not a rebirth-believer but if I were I would assume that I had spent some time in Asia just before I was born in Europe.

  • LesC, if in your previous life you were really Col. John M. Chivington then the explanation could be:

    The reason why after killing so many people, Chivington was still be able to be reborned as a decent human being is because maybe just before he died, he felt great remorse and vowed to redeem himself in the next life. On the other hand, if Chivington was a cruel man to the end, his bad karma wouldn't let him to be reincarnated well easily.

    It's the work of karma.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    From Wikipedia: "He returned to Denver where he worked as a deputy sheriff until shortly before his death from cancer in 1894. His funeral took place at the city's Trinity United Methodist Church before his remains were interred at Fairmount Cemetery. To the end of his life, Chivington maintained that Sand Creek had been a successful operation. He argued that his expedition was a response to raids on white people. He ignored his betrayal of official agreements for protection of Black Kettle's friendly band. In addition, he overlooked the contribution of the massacre to the Cheyenne, Arapaho and Sioux bands strengthening their alliances and increasing raids on white settlers. Until he died, he always claimed to have been justified in ordering the attack, stating whenever anyone asked how he felt about his actions "I stand by Sand Creek.""
    Zero
  • It's a fascinating thought and I wouldn't rule anything out. None of us knows for sure.

    Coincidentally I remember being obsessed with native Americans as a child too.
  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran
    edited September 2013

    I dont know... of course but... I have would guess that that kind of person could not change into someone nice like you in just 120 years. It appears he was a bastard until the end when he died by cancer? Clinging to that the massacure was justified.

    But maybe you know more?


    /Victor
  • TheEccentricTheEccentric South east, UK Veteran
    If he did all of that and showed no remorse surely he would have been reborn in the hell realm and as hell beings live for so long would still be there now?
    Victorious
  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran
    I think so too.
  • LesCLesC Bermuda Veteran
    Yes he pretty much believed his own press up till the end. I have dug into this guy a bit, he was the first Grand Master of the Grand Lodge of Colorado and a Methodist minister for much of his life. First as a minister I would have thought he would have adhered to the "Thou shat not kill" thing, and Freemasons have as their credo "Brotherly Love, Relief and Truth". Not much of any of that going around Sand Creek. I would like to think at no time in my prior lives could I ever have been such a monster, but it could explain the attachment thing.
  • @lesC
    It is good that you put your wallet where you do
    but...

    It is difficult not to actually compound a karmic stream when ones identity is intangled in it.

    Karma is just the inertia of unresolved ignorance very much like our identity is..

    As fascinating as the karmic threads can be that make up this being, attaching ones identity to any only invites the self in to play when selflessness is really what is called for.
    Invincible_summer
  • I don't think karma is real - it is just a story Buddhists invented to teach people morals, kind of like the fear of hell to make people do good deeds. The mind can project almost anything, see patterns everywhere, imagine things. You only live once, that's the truth.
    lobster
  • blu3reeblu3ree Veteran
    edited September 2013
    much can happen over a thousand years.

    @betaboy karma isnt just about what you do returns back to you. karma is everything and is cause and effect.
  • You only live once, that's the truth.
    Some don't even do that . . .
    How do we improve our being? @frederica said it well. What fantasy construct works for you?

    Anyone ready for reality? Not quite yet?
    It's fun. Promise . . .

    :thumbsup:
  • lobster said:

    You only live once, that's the truth.
    Some don't even do that . . .
    How do we improve our being? @frederica said it well. What fantasy construct works for you?

    Anyone ready for reality? Not quite yet?
    It's fun. Promise . . .

    :thumbsup:

    Living every minute of it.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    betaboy said:

    I don't think karma is real - it is just a story Buddhists invented to teach people morals, kind of like the fear of hell to make people do good deeds. The mind can project almost anything, see patterns everywhere, imagine things. You only live once, that's the truth.

    For @Lobster, since you think this post is insightful, does that mean you don't believe in karma?

  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran
    betaboy said:

    I don't think karma is real - it is just a story Buddhists invented to teach people morals, kind of like the fear of hell to make people do good deeds. The mind can project almost anything, see patterns everywhere, imagine things. You only live once, that's the truth.

    So something you're not sure about is the truth?

    Hmmmmmmm.........sounds like an opinion to me.

    Nirvana
  • NirvanaNirvana aka BUBBA   `     `     ` `     ` Outa Range Fridays thru Sundays South Carolina, USA Veteran
    betaboy said:

    I don't think karma is real - it is just a story Buddhists invented to teach people morals, kind of like the fear of hell to make people do good deeds. The mind can project almost anything, see patterns everywhere, imagine things. You only live once, that's the truth.

    Well it's not a story, it's a paradigm or theory that Buddhists have historically believed in. The first Buddhists who entered China from India limited the number of footsteps they'd take in a day to minimize the number of sentient beings they'd trod to death. Arguably, if their incentive was "moral," they'd have been more swayed by the arguments of the Chinese natives that they were just lazy ne'erdowells who needed to pull their weight. If "morals are taught by the authorities," as it were, what greater moral claim is there than doing one's duty? (Well, that might be a bit lame where religious imperatives are at work, but I don't see any sense of respect for that in the phrase I cited.)

    In actual, verifiable terms, Nothing is real, since nothing substantially abides forever. It wouldn't be unthinkable, either, to label as nonexistent the atoms that make up an apple —since they are only rather temporarily whizzing around in "that" configuration. Nonetheless, those particular atoms, though they seem to disappear, can and most probably do arise elsewhere —and not necessarily much later, either. So are atoms real or unreal? Or does it all depend on your perspective? Maybe "reality" is situational, afterall.

    For me, karma (which I think of primarily as our work and its fruits) and samskara ("mental impressions," "mental entanglements") go hand-in-hand. The things we choose or those we choose not to evade just accrue to our beings in a certain way. (Speaking crudely, for lack of time and space) The idea of entanglement is pretty much the paradigm by which I understand these two (for me) related things. In fact, I find entanglement is pretty much the stuff of which everything is made. Atoms entangle to make molecules, which in turn get entangled to make the organelles that help make the cell work, etc. From the sheer biological perspective, we now know that our species evolved from a tribe of primates in South Africa that subsequently spread all over the world, chasing the Neanderthal, Homo Habilis, etc. from their homes. It was the different grains, herbs, and animals they ate, the air they breathed, the sun and the rain that they endured, and their occupations and suchlike which brought about all the diversity we can see today. Initially they were all of one family with similar traits. No doubt, there was some interbreeding between Homo sapiens and the species that were pushed to extinction, but it cannot account for all that very much. ("You are what you eat," the old maxim).

    There used to be a very interesting ZenMonk contributing to this board who always asserted that beliefs got in the way, and that Buddhist practice always trumped belief. I think he was right. It's not that I believe in karma because I feel I should or that it's The Truth. No, for me it's really more intuitive than that. Behaviors tend to become woven into a fabric. When we are caught up in the momentum of our acts or activities we just cannot stop —sometimes even when we want to. It's like being possessed or obsessed or something. The little incidental "sins," I think, are probably just chalked up to "mishaps" and our beings do not absorb any effects from them. The same with our little incidental generosities and such. It's the meaningful stuff that counts. For me, the idea of Karma's just a prayerful groundedness, and mainly it's one of compassion. I just don't wanna see endless cycles of pain.

    Dogmatic assertions of Karma really get under my skin. Pharisaically one might just say that people simply get what they deserve, and therefore when bad things happen to people they are only getting repaid for evil deeds in past lives. I do believe that there's been way too much of that in the history of India and all humane persons need to wipe the slate of others' past lives clean. My Car ran over that particular Karma dogma.
    ____

    You only live once? Says who?

    I've led several lives in this one lifespan only and am looking forward to more rebirth every day.
  • oceancaldera207oceancaldera207 Veteran
    edited September 2013
    Very interesting thread! I would say that perhaps the resemblance has another meaning, meant as a way to focus your attention in a certain way. Of course such things work in mysterious ways..
    @LesC
    It must be a terrible burden to feel any responsibility for such a thing! Are you okay?
  • TheEccentricTheEccentric South east, UK Veteran
    edited September 2013
    betaboy said:

    You only live once, that's the truth.

    While you may hold this non-buddhist view the a lot of the rest of us may not considering this is a Buddhist forum.

    Having read this post and others of yours it seems like you think Buddhism is just a load of nonsense so why bother discussing it here?
    poptart
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Speak for yourself.
  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran
    edited September 2013
    He is. And also for like 500 million other Buddhists.

    Or are you @vinlyn now gonna decide who is allowed to call themselves buddhist or not? :p

    /Victor
  • vinlyn said:

    betaboy said:

    I don't think karma is real - it is just a story Buddhists invented to teach people morals, kind of like the fear of hell to make people do good deeds. The mind can project almost anything, see patterns everywhere, imagine things. You only live once, that's the truth.

    For @Lobster, since you think this post is insightful, does that mean you don't believe in karma?

    I don't want to go too off topic as the forces of karma (aka @frederica) are likely to be a causal effect in any future reading . . .

    . . . however . . . do I believe effects have causes? Yes.
    . . . on the Quantum level? Not always (bizarre as that may seem)
    . . . over multiple laff times for those invested in the pre evolution theory of Hindu based philosophies? Please . . . I am not a creationist or all good lobsters go to heaven type of crustacean either . . .

    Basically my good karma allows me to not be troubled by my 'beliefs' . . . not be dogmatised, hopeful, fearful or otherwise unduly concerned with my or others beliefs and opinions . . . one life I am pretty much sure is happening . . . right now . . .

    :wave:
  • lobster said:


    ...@frederica said it well.

    lobster said:


    ...(aka @frederica). . .

    fed, fed, federica....
    Quite unlike any fred I know!
    lobsterfederica
  • I will have to disagree bcos

    1. moment of death thought determines next birth.

    2. accumulated karma comes from many lifetimes.

    3. Buddha was asked once about where a person
    who passsed away recently was reborn.
    He refused to answer the question for 7 days.
    On the 8th day, he replied that the person was reborn in heaven.
    Well, Buddha later explained that X was reborn into a suffering state
    for 7 days. On 8th day, X went to heaven.
    cvalue said:

    LesC, if in your previous life you were really Col. John M. Chivington then the explanation could be:

    The reason why after killing so many people, Chivington was still be able to be reborned as a decent human being is because maybe just before he died, he felt great remorse and vowed to redeem himself in the next life. On the other hand, if Chivington was a cruel man to the end, his bad karma wouldn't let him to be reincarnated well easily.

    It's the work of karma.

  • LesCLesC Bermuda Veteran
    Thank you all for responding, and your insightful posts.

    Les

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Zero said:

    lobster said:


    ...@frederica said it well.

    lobster said:


    ...(aka @frederica). . .

    fed, fed, federica....
    Quite unlike any fred I know!
    Yes, for the last frecking time, it's FEDerica!! It's not as if you can't copy it off my profile name!!

    And, @Victorious, frankly, yes - when a so-called 'member' displays a certain level of ignorance regarding certain topics, which are frequently discussed and outlined on forum, and their comments are clearly wide off the mark - then yes, damn right people have the right to question their leaning.
  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran
    @federica Sorry you totally lost me there which comment are you commenting on and what topics and wide off the mark of what? 'certain topics' or this topic?

    I am not being cheeky. I just see like a thousand possible interpretations and no way to choose among them. It happens to me a lot. My mind is flawed that way.

    /Victor
  • oceancaldera207oceancaldera207 Veteran
    edited September 2013

    @federica Sorry you totally lost me there which comment are you commenting on and what topics and wide off the mark of what? 'certain topics' or this topic?

    I am not being cheeky. I just see like a thousand possible interpretations and no way to choose among them. It happens to me a lot. My mind is flawed that way.

    /Victor

    I'm confused too. I think she's agreeing with you.

    As for me I'm a buddhist, I kill as many things as humanly possible, I only eat flesh, I dont believe in reincarnation, I believe that cruelty is lord, I rob people, I engage in sexual misconduct of all sorts, I insult and inspire terror in all people, I own slaves, I am a fan of opression and subjugating women, eugenics is great and so is racism. Greed selfishness, and fraud? Where do I sign up! I like causing pain and feel no remorse whatsoever. Anger is my guidebook.

    But damn it I'm a buddhist and you can't say any different.

    ++Does that really make sense?++
    ?
    Victorious
  • If you are remembering now of this event; and that you have become a benefactor, maybe karma is telling you of something else that is coming up, that you must expect to help purify what happened in this previous life.
  • Karma Karma Karma…


  • Oops. Me link don't work. :(

    Oh well, I'm sure you can all sing it to yourself. :D
  • Nirvana said:


    You only live once? Says who?

    According to that James Bond film, you only live twice.
    :p
  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran

    @federica Sorry you totally lost me there which comment are you commenting on and what topics and wide off the mark of what? 'certain topics' or this topic?

    I am not being cheeky. I just see like a thousand possible interpretations and no way to choose among them. It happens to me a lot. My mind is flawed that way.

    /Victor

    I'm confused too. I think she's agreeing with you.

    As for me I'm a buddhist, I kill as many things as humanly possible, I only eat flesh, I dont believe in reincarnation, I believe that cruelty is lord, I rob people, I engage in sexual misconduct of all sorts, I insult and inspire terror in all people, I own slaves, I am a fan of opression and subjugating women, eugenics is great and so is racism. Greed selfishness, and fraud? Where do I sign up! I like causing pain and feel no remorse whatsoever. Anger is my guidebook.

    But damn it I'm a buddhist and you can't say any different.

    ++Does that really make sense?++
    ?
    Yes thats nice dude but the really really qualifying question is

    DO YOU or DO YOU NOT BELIEVE IN REINCARNATION?

    :D

    oceancaldera207
  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
    edited September 2013
    (sigh) Just read through the thread. @LesC you must be even more confused than when you asked. You've discovered that among the disparate bunch here with its many schools of Buddhism represented, there is no single or official answer to your question.

    As for the resemblance, you could play the man easily in a movie but I could find a dozen pictures of a solidly built man about your age with the same style facial hair that looked like you, especially during this period when a fine beard was more common than today.

    All I can answer to the question is tell you what my own Zen school teaches. "You" have not lived a previous life, not this one and not any other, because the "you" that is reading these words did not exist before you were born as a conscious human being. At the most, some elements of what you are have been used again. That isn't the same thing as your spirit or essence or ghost wandering the world until it finds a new baby in a womb to haunt.

    It is as wrong to say "you" were that man as it is to say "you" are your father because you share part of a genetic pattern. So no, my own teaching tells me karma does not work that way. You have no inherited guilt to work off because there is no eternal spirit capable of being corrupted or needing redeemed that connects you to other lives past or present. This is "no-self" vastly simplified.
    VastmindVictoriouslobster
  • Cinorjer said:

    (sigh)

    Well said.
    I can not even remember a moderators name (@federica - sorry) let alone my past incarceration as a peanut.

    I will not join a teaching system based on lack of reality, knowledge or ignorance. That would make Buddhism - faith led. Works for some. Why? I would suggest the working sweeteners are very palatable.

    Vajrayana which makes extensive use and teaches multiple lives . . . take it with a pinch of sea salt. Pope Francis, the Dalai Lama and Albert Einstein are not infallible. Maybe in my next reassembling from nowhere, I will provide a conclusive list of 'many lifetime evolution' from worm to something or other.

    Is propagating ignorance skilful means? Seems like time wasting . . .

  • lobster said:

    Pope Francis, the Dalai Lama and Albert Einstein are not infallible.

    Neither are you. Or any of us.
    We live in our little bodies thinking what we see and hear and feel is all there is, but how do we know? How can we know?
    lobster said:

    Is propagating ignorance skilful means? Seems like time wasting . . .

    One man's "ignorance" is another man's inspiration. Who's to judge?
    lobster
  • poptart said:

    Who's to judge?

    You are.

    You are responsible for what inspires, vexes or pushes your buttons.
    Who did you expect to be responsible?
    poptartNirvana
  • lobster said:


    I will not join a teaching system based on lack of reality, knowledge or ignorance. That would make Buddhism - faith led. Works for some. Why? I would suggest the working sweeteners are very palatable.
    Vajrayana which makes extensive use and teaches multiple lives . . . take it with a pinch of sea salt.

    In reality the Buddhist traditions are a continuum, with reason at one end and faith at the other. Different approaches work for different people, but it doesn't make one approach superior and the other inferior.
    Do you have faith in the possibility of enlightenment? Do you have faith in your practice?
  • Cinorjer said:


    All I can answer to the question is tell you what my own Zen school teaches. "You" have not lived a previous life, not this one and not any other, because the "you" that is reading these words did not exist before you were born as a conscious human being. At the most, some elements of what you are have been used again. That isn't the same thing as your spirit or essence or ghost wandering the world until it finds a new baby in a womb to haunt.

    Sure, which is a round-about way of describing the difference between rebirth and reincarnation, ie the difference between dependent arising of consciousness and transmigration of soul.
  • lobster said:

    Cinorjer said:

    (sigh)

    Well said.
    I can not even remember a moderators name (@federica - sorry) let alone my past incarceration as a peanut.

    I will not join a teaching system based on lack of reality, knowledge or ignorance. That would make Buddhism - faith led. Works for some. Why? I would suggest the working sweeteners are very palatable.

    Vajrayana which makes extensive use and teaches multiple lives . . . take it with a pinch of sea salt. Pope Francis, the Dalai Lama and Albert Einstein are not infallible. Maybe in my next reassembling from nowhere, I will provide a conclusive list of 'many lifetime evolution' from worm to something or other.

    Is propagating ignorance skilful means? Seems like time wasting . . .

    Be careful when shaving with occams razor..one of these days a little something strange might tap you on the shoulder and you'll get knicked! Then you'll have little TP squares all over the place (how undignified)

  • Be wary of quotes, and quoting; for we are not the one making the quote, nor are we the quote. Be wary of using times for quotes, for that time and that experience is not ours.
    Nirvana
  • NirvanaNirvana aka BUBBA   `     `     ` `     ` Outa Range Fridays thru Sundays South Carolina, USA Veteran
    Be wary of quotes, and quoting; for you are not the one making the quote, nor are you the quote. Be wary of using your time for quotes, for that time and that experience is not yours.

    What an awesome quote! I'd like to know who first said That!

    However, it's a bit inaccurate to say that when you quote something you are not the one making the quote. However, I think the gist is clear enough, as difficult as it would be to state it more precisely. (It would need to be said pithily or tersely.)

    This quote is even more remarkable in this thread regarding karma, because it really speaks to me about not appropriating things that you haven't experienced yourself and wrapping them around you as a trapper might the coonskin from the raccoons he trapped. If we're not authentic and live our own truths rather than another's, then how will we ever come around to the truth that is uniquely our own (our own karma)?

    I think Jesus said something like this when he said to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees.


  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran
    edited September 2013
    lobster said:


    . . . over multiple laff times for those invested in the pre evolution theory of Hindu based philosophies?

    The fact remains that, with the exception of secular Buddhism, all Buddhist traditions accept the teachings on rebirth and kamma.

    However inconvenient that might be for some people.
    poptart
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    I'm not sure it's a question of convenience or inconvenience. The fact that a particular school of Buddhism or all schools of Buddhism accept something doesn't mean that all Buddhists accept it.
«1
Sign In or Register to comment.