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Shootings in Chicago. 12 shot.

VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran
edited September 2013 in General Banter
A three year old got shot in the face.

http://www.dn.se/nyheter/varlden/tolv-skottskadade-i-chicago/

Seriously you guys over there. When are you going to do something about this?

Why is it so hard to just forbid wepons in the USA?

Thoughtfully
Victor

riverflowTheEccentricInvincible_summerNirvana
«13

Comments

  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran
    Can someone please help me change the title. It should read shootings in chicago.

    /Victor
  • WTF, that is another shooting in the same week!?

    @Victorious as much as I know something needs to change it is a very complicated situation, simply regulating guns will not suffice. The UK for example has very strict gun laws yet people still get a hold of hand guns some how.

    If you have not watched the documentary 'Bowling For Columbine' I suggest you do. It will help to explain a few things to you.

    Canada actually has just as many guns if not more per household than the US, yet nothing like this really ever happens and the murder rate is lower. I think the US has the highest murder rate for any developed country.
    poptartriverflow
  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran
    edited September 2013
    @ThailandTom. I will see it but it is really hard for me to get my head around this situation in the USA.

    And again I got the headline wrong it seems everybody are still alive. I tried the Edit button for the discussion but I do not have permission to change the heading!

    /Victor
  • Not another theravada buddhist, I hope.

    Because of NRA.

    A three year old got shot in the face.

    http://www.dn.se/nyheter/varlden/tolv-skottskadade-i-chicago/

    Seriously you guys over there. When are you going to do something about this?

    Why is it so hard to just forbid wepons in the USA?

    Thoughtfully
    Victor

    riverflowVictorious
  • Seriously Victor I insist that you watch Bowling For Columbine, it takes a very good look at what you are trying to understand. It won an Oscar award I think, or some type of award
    riverflowVictorious
  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran
    edited September 2013
    Ooh it is Michael Moore! Yepp I will definitly watch it!

    /Victor
    riverflow
  • The UK for example has very strict gun laws yet people still get a hold of hand guns some how.

    That's true, but mass shootings in the UK are rare.

    Mass shootings in the US seem to occur with depressing regularity. Is it just lax gun laws, or does it suggest a higher incidence of mental illness? Or what?
    riverflowInvincible_summer
  • The UK for example has very strict gun laws yet people still get a hold of hand guns some how.

    That's true, but mass shootings in the UK are rare.

    Mass shootings in the US seem to occur with depressing regularity. Is it just lax gun laws, or does it suggest a higher incidence of mental illness? Or what?
    My point was that tighter gun laws will not make much of a difference in the US. From what I can gather it has a lot to do with what content the media pumps out in the news and general TV. I am not referring to movie violence or whatever, but to the sense of fear that the media drills into the public. Like I said to Victor, if you have not seen that documentary go and watch it, it tries to answer this very question.
  • The UK for example has very strict gun laws yet people still get a hold of hand guns some how.

    That's true, but mass shootings in the UK are rare.

    Mass shootings in the US seem to occur with depressing regularity. Is it just lax gun laws, or does it suggest a higher incidence of mental illness? Or what?
    My point was that tighter gun laws will not make much of a difference in the US. From what I can gather it has a lot to do with what content the media pumps out in the news and general TV. I am not referring to movie violence or whatever, but to the sense of fear that the media drills into the public. Like I said to Victor, if you have not seen that documentary go and watch it, it tries to answer this very question.
    So all these mass shootings are the fault of the media?
  • The UK for example has very strict gun laws yet people still get a hold of hand guns some how.

    That's true, but mass shootings in the UK are rare.

    Mass shootings in the US seem to occur with depressing regularity. Is it just lax gun laws, or does it suggest a higher incidence of mental illness? Or what?
    My point was that tighter gun laws will not make much of a difference in the US. From what I can gather it has a lot to do with what content the media pumps out in the news and general TV. I am not referring to movie violence or whatever, but to the sense of fear that the media drills into the public. Like I said to Victor, if you have not seen that documentary go and watch it, it tries to answer this very question.
    So all these mass shootings are the fault of the media?
    Like I said it is a complex situation that requires a lot of observation. It is partly due to the media in my opinion yes, that is part of the problem, yet like most situations in life there is not one single reason for it coming into being. There are many factors involved and if you cannot find the documentary or do not have the time/cannot be bothered, at least watch this.

    riverflowNirvana
  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
    Look how high the USA is on this list!!!! Damn Americans!!!
    riverflowInvincible_summer
  • I'm glad Tom has already mentioned Bowling For Columbine. It says it all, really.

    riverflow
  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran
    edited September 2013
  • oceancaldera207oceancaldera207 Veteran
    edited September 2013
    poverty is the main cause.some has to do with psych care availablility
  • This forum has become *quite* the USA-bashing site.
    I'm so glad some of you think it's appropriate to reduce both America's accomplishments and mistakes into a satirical cartoon and tout it as a legitimate 'history lesson' about America.

    As for Columbine, Michael Moore isn't telling America anything it doesn't already know, and strongly disapprove of. We're working on it, people. Very few Americans are sitting around clucking their tongues and ignoring the situation with guns or any other civil rights issues happening now in America.

    We're a very complex society with a complex government. And compared to all you "perfect" European and Asian countries, well we're just toddlers on the scene... your countries have been around for thousands of years longer, what's your excuse for all your faults and mistakes? Or do you really believe you have none?
    mfranzdorf
  • MaryAnne said:

    This forum has become *quite* the USA-bashing site.
    I'm so glad some of you think it's appropriate to reduce both America's accomplishments and mistakes into a satirical cartoon and tout it as a legitimate 'history lesson' about America.

    As for Columbine, Michael Moore isn't telling America anything it doesn't already know, and strongly disapprove of. We're working on it, people. Very few Americans are sitting around clucking their tongues and ignoring the situation with guns or any other civil rights issues happening now in America.

    We're a very complex society with a complex government. And compared to all you "perfect" European and Asian countries, well we're just toddlers on the scene... your countries have been around for thousands of years longer, what's your excuse for all your faults and mistakes? Or do you really believe you have none?

    For the record I am not bashing the US at all here, I am merely stating that it has the highest murder rate of all of the developed countries because the OP questioned why all of this is such an often thing in the US. Does any of us now why? What are all the reason for this highly evolved and high achieving nation to resort to such a thing. I am merely responding to OPs question and also to the very well put together documentary Bowling For Columbine. This is not bashing, it is discussing something that has happened.

    We can discuss other things that have happened around the world if you so wish, just pop up over there and make a thread..
  • ThailandTomThailandTom Veteran
    edited September 2013
    Vastmind said:

    The police suspect it's gang related.

    Why do kids join gangs? Why do adults stay in gangs?
    For love......for belonging.....to feel accepted.....to feel
    taken care of.....for the 'brotherhood'....For things that are
    not available at their home
    Why are they not available?

    Gun laws don't address the social and community issues.
    That has to be done by us.

    If you have the time....be a mentor to a child who needs
    one. Teach and show respect of life.

    Just my two cents.....

    After translating the article this is what I came to, the conclusion that this was a gang related incident and Chicago is notorious for it's gang culture. Still, that does not take away the horrific incident that it is, something that happens over and over again along the West coast mainly. Why, why is this happening? Why do places that have just as many guns if not more have a far lower homicide rate? Countries exposed to violent movies and games still have a lower homicide rate, what is the root cause or shall I say causes of this problem?
  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
    Look how high the USA is on this list!!!! Damn Americans!!!

    But why? Why is this such a problem in the US?
  • MaryAnne said:

    We're working on it, people.

    So what in your view is the real problem in the US, and what can be done about it?

  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
    Look how high the USA is on this list!!!! Damn Americans!!!

    But why? Why is this such a problem in the US?
    lol did you not listen my friend :p

    Bowling
    For
    Columbine

    That will help to give you a start to investigating why
  • The sad thing is that I've grown so "used" to things like this here in the US that I'm tired of even saying much about it anymore. US gun culture is bizarre. Most Americans are so steeped in it they don't even recognize how insane it is-- it is "normal" here.
    ThailandTomVictorious
  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    People resort to violence when they feel helpless.
    Economics has alot to do with the gang culture here.

    "A hungry man makes an angry man" --Bob Marley
    riverflowVictoriousMaryAnne
  • ThailandTomThailandTom Veteran
    edited September 2013
    riverflow said:

    The sad thing is that I've grown so "used" to things like this here in the US that I'm tired of even saying much about it anymore. US gun culture is bizarre. Most Americans are so steeped in it they don't even recognize how insane it is-- it is "normal" here.

    I think that guns in general are not necessary for the average Joe to own, especially a lay Buddhist. I have held a gun once and that was my fiends hunting shotgun, it felt very weird I must say. And that is the only gun I have ever seen IRL. Just because a 200+ year document states you should have the right to own one does not make it something correct or 'good' for society in this day and age. I am pretty certain if I had access to guns I would have killed myself in my teen years as it is so easy to just pull a trigger and I have been in suicidal states of mind on several occasions.

    However like I have previously said, tightening gun control in the US will have little impact and result in mass protests from the gun-ho trigger happy folk. That is not the answer IMO if there is an answer that is.
  • Bowling
    For Columbine

    I've seen it. NRA, gun culture, hunting, lack of political will...

    :-/
  • But why? Why is this such a problem in the US?

    Poverty! In my city, blue collar areas fell into economic depression...people have no hope of getting anywhere with work due to wage inequality..crime ensues.there are other factors but I strongly believe this is the basis. If you aren't educated, you can work your fingers to the bone and still barely survive...and in the midst of people with wealth, the resentment and psychological schism grows
    I think you might be on to something there, because these events do suggest extreme feelings of alienation and resentment. Possibly compounded by the breakdown of extended family, lack of social cohesion, increasing isolation. Combine all that with easy access to guns and it's the perfect storm.
  • I think it's this: if you feel that the right to carry arms - in part - defines who you are, then to demand that you give up this right is perceived as a critique: "who you are right now is not acceptable, you have to change". People like to hang on to their identity, even if it means living in a more violent society.
    ThailandTomVictoriousriverflow
  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran
    edited September 2013
    MaryAnne said:



    We're a very complex society with a complex government. And compared to all you "perfect" European and Asian countries, well we're just toddlers on the scene... your countries have been around for thousands of years longer, what's your excuse for all your faults and mistakes? Or do you really believe you have none?

    I think we manly blame it on US foreign policy. lol.

    But seriously if reducing guns would stop even one killing. Why not?
    I will watch the film since many here think it is good.

    @MaryAnne it is just that from over here it seems the US chooses their love for their guns over their love for children a lot of times every year.
    Maybe that picture is crazy media talkning but still the statistics also point to this. Is it not so?

    Thanks.
    /Victor
    riverflow
  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    I don't think it's love of guns.....I think it's all fear based.
    We have to investigate where this fear and insecurity comes
    from. People who want guns, don't love them...they feel they
    need protection from something or someone.
    ThailandTomriverflowIEatBlueCrayons
  • Vastmind said:

    I don't think it's love of guns.....I think it's all fear based.
    We have to investigate where this fear and insecurity comes
    from. People who want guns, don't love them...they feel they
    need protection from something or someone.

    Which is exactly what I have been pointing to the entire time, this fear, where does it come from and why? These are the questions
    riverflow
  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    edited September 2013

    Vastmind said:

    I don't think it's love of guns.....I think it's all fear based.
    We have to investigate where this fear and insecurity comes
    from. People who want guns, don't love them...they feel they
    need protection from something or someone.

    Which is exactly what I have been pointing to the entire time, this fear, where does it come from and why? These are the questions
    We could be here all day explaining those reasons...hahaha...
    History of the country, thus far.
    The reasons are different for gang bangers than for the
    'conservative, southern' types.....

    Edit: Although, if you get down to it...the base is probably the
    same. Economics. One group is mad because they are kept from having something
    and the other group is mad because what they have they fear is
    in jeopardy of being taken.

  • The UK for example has very strict gun laws yet people still get a hold of hand guns some how.

    It's very rare we have mass shootings and we haven't had a school shooting since Dunblane in 1996; when the gun laws were tightened up even more.

    riverflow
  • Tosh said:

    The UK for example has very strict gun laws yet people still get a hold of hand guns some how.

    It's very rare we have mass shootings and we haven't had a school shooting since Dunblane in 1996; when the gun laws were tightened up even more.

    Yea but school shootings do not hold every illegal gun in the UK accountable do they. Take the recent robbery of Blaire's daughter in London at gun point, how about 'gunchester' and moss-side? Hand guns are there if you know the right people and shot guns and hunting rifles are there if you can get a license
  • Brazil, Mexico Russia. All "developed" countries, all have higher murder rates than the USA. I'm not saying our murder rate is good, it clearly is not, but it is not the highest as some like to profess.
    sndymorn
  • mfranzdorfmfranzdorf Veteran
    edited September 2013
    As so many have pointed out, mental illness seems to be a common theme with mass shootings. What really drives people to do those things? The answer probably wouldn't make sense to most anyway.


    sndymorn
  • I think Michael Moore is onto something when he touches on the fact that the media have turned violent crime into infotainment, with the result that people believe it is more prevalent than it actually is. If you hear about horrible murders every time you switch on the news you will perceive a physical threat. That in turn makes people more paranoid. Where once they might have been friendly to strangers they now see them as potential muggers and bolt their doors.

    VastmindThailandTom
  • Tosh said:

    The UK for example has very strict gun laws yet people still get a hold of hand guns some how.

    It's very rare we have mass shootings and we haven't had a school shooting since Dunblane in 1996; when the gun laws were tightened up even more.

    Yea but school shootings do not hold every illegal gun in the UK accountable do they. Take the recent robbery of Blaire's daughter in London at gun point, how about 'gunchester' and moss-side? Hand guns are there if you know the right people and shot guns and hunting rifles are there if you can get a license
    You make good points, Tom.
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    You cannot lump shootings together just because they happen in a close timeframe. The shootings at the Navy yard were in no way alike the shootings in Chicago except for the fact they were shootings. Chicago has had gang problems for quite a long time. Chicago also has some of the strictest gun laws in the country. It hasn't done a thing for them and their gun violence rate.

    The problem is vast and complex and if there was any majority group that believed "we could do THIS and it would have a significant impact on deaths" most likely it would be done already. The problem is, there is a REASON people shoot each other up, and it's not simply because they have guns available. Both the reasons, and the availability off guns has to be addressed. With how many guns we have, it would take a very *very* long time to get them off the streets even if they stopped making them today.

    It has to do with our history of settlement of America, it has to do with fear and people buying into it. We really can't blame the media here, we TELL them what we want to watch. If people don't wanna watch about mass shootings, then they should stop watching instead of gluing themselves to the tv and then blaming the media. They are a *business* and their business is fueled by demand. It has to do with our poor mental health system and how it doesn't work with our criminal justice system. It has to do with drugs and the trafficking of them, and the control over them. It has to do with economics and people feeling they have no hope for a real future. It has to do with parenting and people who have children they do not take care of, love, support and so on. It has to do with many, many things, none of which is resolved by any one thing. And even if you could remove any gun that might be crime-causing, hunting rifles will never disappear from the American landscape. Obviously I realize this is not the case for places like Chicago, NY, LA, DC and so on, but when you spend your entire life in a rural area, people do still hunt for food. Often. Many of them rely on their hunted food to make it through a year, and they shouldn't have that taken away from them.

    If Alexis was done in by our poor mental health system and the Navy not following up and getting him the help he needed, that is one problem. He used a rifle, not a handgun if I remember right. The people in Chicago, I understand it was a driveby, likely gang related. Most gangs have at least portions of them who are involved in drug running. Most people join gangs to feel respected and accepted. So there, you have economics, drugs, and parenting involved. You cannot say "this is what we have to do and it'll solve the problem." because it's not possible.
    Vastmind
  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    edited September 2013
    Vastmind said:

    Vastmind said:

    I don't think it's love of guns.....I think it's all fear based.
    We have to investigate where this fear and insecurity comes
    from. People who want guns, don't love them...they feel they
    need protection from something or someone.

    Which is exactly what I have been pointing to the entire time, this fear, where does it come from and why? These are the questions
    We could be here all day explaining those reasons...hahaha...
    Ok, nevermind about all day...@karasti did a pretty good quick job! :)

    mfranzdorfNirvana
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited September 2013

    A three year old got shot in the face.

    http://www.dn.se/nyheter/varlden/tolv-skottskadade-i-chicago/

    Seriously you guys over there. When are you going to do something about this?

    Why is it so hard to just forbid wepons in the USA?

    Thoughtfully
    Victor

    There are a number of reasons why this is so difficult, I think. The main reason is that the right to bear arms is understood to be a constitutionally-protected right (Second Amendment), so any kind of outright ban on guns is impossible until the Constitution is amended, which takes 2/3 of the states or 2/3 of both houses of Congress to propose and 3/4 of the states to ratify. And that will probably never happen. The other main reasons are more complex and include issues such as poverty, low social mobility, institutionalized racism, etc.

    For example, Boots Riley argues that much of the gun violence in the US is, when you boil it all down, economically motivated. People who can't survive by legal means, through conventional employment (whether because there aren't enough good paying jobs available or they have some impediment to gainful employment like a previous criminal record, etc.), are often involved in illegal businesses to survive, and gun violence is a natural outgrowth of illegal businesses regulating themselves. "All business regulates itself with violence or the threat of violence. For legal business that called the police. For illegal business, there has to be force. You can't go to the zoning commission, or to small claims court over some dope." And this, he continued, has an impact on culture. "Some folks say 'yeah but some gun violence isnt economically motivated'. Most of it is. But like any form of survival, it creates a culture How we materially survive creates the culture around it. Fishing villages create fishing songs- not the other way around (sed that before). If fighting gun violence that happens on the street is ur calling- your only hope is a mass, militant, radical labor mvmnt that raises wages"

    He also notes the historical shift in how the left in the US treated the issue of gun control, and how in his view gun control today is more about cultural allegiances of progressives attached to the Democratic Party: "The left used to champion striking miners fighting back against Pinkerton security with their guns. The first gun control laws came about from media created hysteria about the 'Negro crime waves' of the 1920s. Cops went house to house, kicking in doors of Black families and taking guns away. Gun control laws aren't aimed at White people in the country side. It's Black and Brown folks that get locked up for having guns."

    And that doesn't even address problems such as mental illness, which plays a role in many of these mass shootings. All in all, though, no matter how you view the issue of gun control (for or against), it's a complicated issue. Gun ownership is enshrined in our Constitution and there are a lot of them out there, both legal and illegal. Trying to ban guns and confiscate the ones that are already out there is political and practically impossible; and even if it wasn't, I think the government trying to do so would cause a serious and most-likely violent backlash. The way I see it, there's no easy solution, really.

    A combination of things like better funded and easily accessible mental healthcare, stricter gun control laws, and gun safety programs may help to reduce incidents like this, but they'll never be able to completely stop them. Part of this, I think, is because the roots of much of this kind of violence within society goes much, much deeper than crazy people or prevalence of guns, and they won't be uprooted until we take a long, hard look at the society of fear and violence we've created, or that we've allowed to be created for us—a society where things like a basic guaranteed income and universal healthcare (including better funding of, and easier access to, mental healthcare) are fought against tooth and nail, and starting wars in the name of peace and dropping bombs that routinely kill innocent civilians seems as easy as buying a gun at Walmart.

    It's sad that things like this happen, and I really hate hearing about them. As for what I'm doing about it, there's not much I really can do besides continuing to support things like universal healthcare in the short term, and fight for a healthier and less volatile society via progressive socio-economic changes in the long term. Beyond that, though, I don't know what else I can do.
    VastmindmaartenNirvana

  • Seriously you guys over there. When are you going to do something about this?

    Why is it so hard to just forbid wepons in the USA?

    Thoughtfully
    Victor

    We live RIGHT next to mexico. You know what mexico does for the US? They bring in TONS of illegal drugs and weapons into this country, and sell them to gang members. Since the government finds that the best way to lower the deficit is to lower the amount of money Law Enforcement gets, they're going to running rampant in this country. No one can blame mexico for all the gang, drugs, and weapon problems in this country, but they sure as hell aren't making this country more safer.

    The WORST thing that our country can do is 'forbid' weapons. There're over 1 million gang members in the U.S. and no matter what, they're GOING to have weapons. And since Law Enforcement is constantly being depleted, no one is going to check up on the gangs and try stopping them from having illegal items.
    mfranzdorf
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    Even with several major cases involving mental health in the past year, half our congress is STILL attempting to stop our health care initiative from taking life. They've tried and failed many times, but are doing it again, voting to de-fund the program and in effect putting our government in a shutdown state. They work against everyone's best interests, no new gun laws, no funding health care, cutting foods assistance, cutting headstart preschool, cutting elder care programs...they cut anything and everything that helps people and I just get really tired of it. Those are the kids of people I struggle to have compassion for. They contribute to all the problems talked about in this discussion and yet have no solutions for any of the problems. They just make them worse.
  • howhow Veteran
    edited September 2013
    I am not sure why folks don't understand the gun culture. Everyone wishes to be safe.
    The ego that we meet in meditation is a reflection of that.
    We choose to meditate, which is a direct challenge to that conditioned form of self protection but look at how many folks wouldn't dream of doing such a thing. Look at how long we ourselves fostered our own egos when there was so much evidence of the harm that resulted in living that way.
    The answer to why a gun culture continues, is no further away than your next meditation period.


    karastimaartenInvincible_summer

  • Seriously you guys over there. When are you going to do something about this?

    Why is it so hard to just forbid wepons in the USA?

    Thoughtfully
    Victor

    We live RIGHT next to mexico. You know what mexico does for the US? They bring in TONS of illegal drugs and weapons into this country, and sell them to gang members. Since the government finds that the best way to lower the deficit is to lower the amount of money Law Enforcement gets, they're going to running rampant in this country. No one can blame mexico for all the gang, drugs, and weapon problems in this country, but they sure as hell aren't making this country more safer.

    The WORST thing that our country can do is 'forbid' weapons. There're over 1 million gang members in the U.S. and no matter what, they're GOING to have weapons. And since Law Enforcement is constantly being depleted, no one is going to check up on the gangs and try stopping them from having illegal items.


    Of course you know what the U.S. demand for drugs is doing to Mexico.
    Those guns you claim to be moving from Mexico to the U.S. are manufactured where?
  • so if guns ever get banned that wont stop someone whos got it in their head that they are gunna kill someone. there are plenty of other tools one can use for murder like for instance your fists should we ban hands because they too can be a weapon of mass destruction.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    MaryAnne said:

    This forum has become *quite* the USA-bashing site.
    I'm so glad some of you think it's appropriate to reduce both America's accomplishments and mistakes into a satirical cartoon and tout it as a legitimate 'history lesson' about America.

    As for Columbine, Michael Moore isn't telling America anything it doesn't already know, and strongly disapprove of. We're working on it, people. Very few Americans are sitting around clucking their tongues and ignoring the situation with guns or any other civil rights issues happening now in America.

    We're a very complex society with a complex government. And compared to all you "perfect" European and Asian countries, well we're just toddlers on the scene... your countries have been around for thousands of years longer, what's your excuse for all your faults and mistakes? Or do you really believe you have none?

    Thank you Mary Anne! Glad you're back!

    It has little to do with the media. It has little to do with the availability of psychiatric care.

    It has, unfortunately, to do with a flaw in a mostly brilliant document -- our Constitution. The right to bear arms -- put in their as part of a militia concept in post-Revolutionary War times has been misinterpreted and seized upon by organizations (particularly the NRA). It has become an expression of anti-government angst in recent years.

    Politically, at this time, more significant gun control just isn't going to happen in the U.S.

    riverflowMaryAnneIEatBlueCrayons
  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    edited September 2013
    @vinlyn said:
    It has, unfortunately, to do with a flaw in a mostly brilliant document -- our Constitution. The right to bear arms -- put in their as part of a militia concept in post-Revolutionary War times has been misinterpreted and seized upon by organizations (particularly the NRA). It has become an expression of anti-government angst in recent years.


    Good point to add to the mix.
    Back to the fear that 'big government' is trying to take things away.
  • Here is an interesting essay.
    http://www.guncite.com/journals/dkcgc.html
    It is relevant even though it is over 20 years old.
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