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Making the decision to be a lay follower or monk?
Hello all.
I have spent a large amount of time and energy reading the suttas and contemplating the dhamma. Through this contemplation I have gained a fair amount of insight into the teachings.
I understand now that to engage in this world is fruitless. Any action I take as a uninstructed worldling, like being "successful" is fruitless.
Graduating from college, getting the job I desire, having a family, enjoying time with my friends, eating fine food, ect ect, it will not last, it will not be satisfying, it will not lead to contentment.
What happiness I will gain in this life will be unsatisfactory and impermanent.
The shadow of suffering will always be present.
I will grow old, and I will die, and I know I will die unsatisfied, with regret that I did not go forth and became a monk.
That I wasted my precious time on this earth.
I am young, 21 years of age. The reason I have gone to college, was because it was expected of me. I feel a social pressure, from my family, from society do so.
However I am concerned. what will happen when I graduate college? The social pressures to join the work force, to hang out with friends, to raise a family, to do X, to do Y, will still be present. However at this later time it will be
worse. I will have more obligations, more fetters that are binding me to this world, keeping me from truly embracing the dhamma.
I am greatly afraid that, if I do not make the choice soon, that door will close. That it will no longer be possible (or much more difficult) to go forth and become a monk.
The only reason I continue to go to college, is the social pressure of my friends and family. I know that I should not base my life on what other people desires, it is about my desires, but I am stuck.
I know what I want to do. If I was not being pressured by my surroundings I will start to journey to become a monk, because anything less, anything the world can give me will not be satisfying.
May all beings be free from suffering!
Thank you all so much for taking the time out to read this, I know it is a long post.
Please advise me. Thank you!
I have spent a large amount of time and energy reading the suttas and contemplating the dhamma. Through this contemplation I have gained a fair amount of insight into the teachings.
I understand now that to engage in this world is fruitless. Any action I take as a uninstructed worldling, like being "successful" is fruitless.
Graduating from college, getting the job I desire, having a family, enjoying time with my friends, eating fine food, ect ect, it will not last, it will not be satisfying, it will not lead to contentment.
What happiness I will gain in this life will be unsatisfactory and impermanent.
The shadow of suffering will always be present.
I will grow old, and I will die, and I know I will die unsatisfied, with regret that I did not go forth and became a monk.
That I wasted my precious time on this earth.
I am young, 21 years of age. The reason I have gone to college, was because it was expected of me. I feel a social pressure, from my family, from society do so.
However I am concerned. what will happen when I graduate college? The social pressures to join the work force, to hang out with friends, to raise a family, to do X, to do Y, will still be present. However at this later time it will be
worse. I will have more obligations, more fetters that are binding me to this world, keeping me from truly embracing the dhamma.
I am greatly afraid that, if I do not make the choice soon, that door will close. That it will no longer be possible (or much more difficult) to go forth and become a monk.
The only reason I continue to go to college, is the social pressure of my friends and family. I know that I should not base my life on what other people desires, it is about my desires, but I am stuck.
I know what I want to do. If I was not being pressured by my surroundings I will start to journey to become a monk, because anything less, anything the world can give me will not be satisfying.
May all beings be free from suffering!
Thank you all so much for taking the time out to read this, I know it is a long post.
Please advise me. Thank you!
0
Comments
Second, life is long (for most of us). There's no hurry. Don't shut doors that will be difficult to reopen later. I would suggest finishing college so that the door to a profession, whatever it is, remains easily opened. The monkhood will always be there. Buddhism is not going to disappear in your lifetime. And I personally have known people who did not become a monk until they were over 40 years old and already had had a marriage and family.
A couple of things to consider. You say that being successful is fruitless. I guess it depends on how you are defining what is success, but I would put out to you that Siddhartha was successful.
Also, I am concerned about your statement that, "However I am concerned what will happen when I graduate college? The social pressures to join the work force, to hang out with friends, to raise a family, to do X, to do Y, will still be present. However at this later time it will be worse. I will have more obligations, more fetters that are binding me to this world, keeping me from truly embracing the dhamma." It is up to you whether you allow social pressures to interfere with embracing the Dhamma. Use your own power to determine how much you will want to hang out with friends, etc.
Of course, if you are bound and determined to enter the monkhood, then do it. But I'm not clear what the hurry is. If Siddhartha could "found" (for wont of a better word) Buddhism when he was over 29 years old, my guess is you still have lots of time.
Take it from someone who had no opportunities growing up. You are blessed to be able to get an education. Maybe wait until you finish college to make such a bold decision.
Btw it's all in your head...
:om:
Wait for the next big break or take a semester off and go for a long Buddhist retreat. Many organization and centers offer them. Experience what it's like to sit on the cushion, chant, do menial labor and not talk all day, every day, for a few weeks or months.
It seems like you have a good grasp on Buddhist theory but trust me, that has little to do with the actual practice of Buddhism. Being in the same room with the same people most of the time and following a tightly regimented routine is something you can't even begin to imagine from the comfort of your home. Only after you actually do some serious Practice, will you be able to make the decision about whether that's your cup of tea or not.
In Buddhism there is a saying: "Understanding is knowing to get out of the way of an oncoming bus. Practice is for the bus you didn't see coming." Although leaving the comfortable confines of college and family can feel like stepping into a herd of oncoming buses, there is nothing to stop you from building a Buddhist practice -- of paying attention and taking responsibility. There is no single perfect answer to the questions anyone has. Why? Because no one knows what's coming next. Not ever.
Still there are patient steps that can be taken. Can you pay attention? Practice. Can you take responsibility? Practice. Don't imagine that one lifestyle is more or less "Buddhist" than another ... wherever you go and whatever you do, it's still your attention and your responsibility. Buddhism does not begin or end at the monastery gate: It begins and ends with you.
Take your time. Be gentle but firm. Take care of PerplexedOne. And as my mother once said, "Don't get too holy by next Thursday."
Remember:
To me, it speaks about awakening in the wide world.
Shrinking the world down to grounds of a monastery to live with a small group of men looks like prison. A waste of youth.
I'm sure it's not for those who are suited to it.
Essentials of Mind
Yuanwu (1063-1135)
When the founder of Zen came to China from India, he did not set up written or spoken formulations; he only pointed directly to the human mind. Direct pointing just refers to what is inherent in everyone: the whole being appearing responsively from within the shell of ignorance. It is not different from the sages of time immemorial. That is what we call the natural, real, inherent nature, fundamentally pure, luminous and sublime, swallowing and spitting out all of space, the single solid realm alone and free of the senses and objects.
With great capacity and great wisdom, just detach from thought and cut off sentiments, utterly transcending ordinary conventions. Using your own inherent power, take it up directly right where you are, like letting go your hold over a mile high cliff, freeing yourself and not relying on anything anymore, causing all obstruction by views and understanding to be thoroughly removed. Become like a dead person without breath, and reach the original ground, attaining great cessation and great rest, which the senses fundamentally do not know and which consciousness, perception, feelings, and thoughts do not reach.
After that, in the cold ashes of a dead fire, it is clear everywhere; among the stumps of dead trees everything illumines: then you merge with solitary transcendence, unapproachably high. Then there is no more need to seek mind or seek Buddha: you meet them everywhere and find they are not obtained from outside.
The hundred aspects and thousand facets of perennial enlightenment are all just this: it is mind, so there is no need to still seek mind; it is Buddha, so why trouble to seek Buddha anymore? If you make slogans of words and produce interpretations on top of objects, then you will fall into a bag of antiques and after all that never find what you are looking for.
This is the realm of true reality where you forget what is on your mind and stop looking. In a wild field, not choosing, picking up whatever comes to hand, the obvious meaning of Zen is clear in the hundred grasses. Indeed, the green bamboo, the clusters of yellow flowers, fences, walls, tiles, and pebbles use the teaching of the inanimate; rivers, birds, trees, and groves expound suffering, emptiness, and selflessness. This is based on the one true reality, producing unconditional compassion, manifesting uncontrived, supremely wondrous power in the great jewel light of nirvana.
You say you are 21. How far along in college are you?
Repeat until enlightened. No further investigation. :wave:
Seize the moment. This moment may not present itself again.
I know many Buddhists who wishes to ordain but cant.
They are saddled with responsibilities, mortgages, kids, etc.
There are many great monks who ordained at a young age
eg Ajahn Brahm and Sumedho.
Go for it.
Even if things do not work out, you can always
treasure what you have learnt and guess what.
You can still rejoin the rat race.
As I understand it, you can always decide to become a monk, but once you decide then you've made a commitment.
My suggestion with big decisions like that (especially non-pressing ones) is to let it roll around in the back of your head as an option and then see which way the world nudges you with opportunity.
Thankfully, he steered me away from this idea. If my zeal was so great, he reasoned with me, then it would remain with me after finishing college. THEN I could make a decision. If my enthusiasm was truly genuine, it would last over the next couple years of college. Then I would know that my dedication was true.
That was over two decades ago. It's not easy to read one's own motives for wishing to be a monastic. It could be genuine dedication, or it might just be the desire to get away with responsibilities we have. It probably lies somewhere inbetween.
I'd look into what it would entail practically speaking and think on it. As others have suggested, going to a lengthy retreat would also give you a small taste of what is involved. The monastic life isn't as easy as it appears (in any religious tradition). And you still deal with all the same problems "in the world" -- just the context is different.
Becoming a monastic shouldn't be just about "fleeing the world" -- I think most experienced monastics and teachers know this, and they probably keep an eye out for that sort of thing in those who express a desire to enter the monastery... and discourage people with such reasons.
Investigate it, but take care not to romantisize the monastic life. It looks all very serene from the outside, but that's because we laypeople are fortunate to receive the fruit of their labors, including that serene environment.
May I ask why?
For example:
http://magnoliagrovemonastery.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=102&Itemid=115
The members here are more about caution and making sure you are doing it for the right reason. I think it is also about making sure that the person has reasonable expectations of the monastic life.
2. When I was young, I wanted to be a priest. And it's amazing to me how many people I have known in my life who have gone into a convent or a seminary, and then left after discovering it was not for them. Again, youth called.
I don't think people are saying don't become a monk. I think people are saying to just slow down a bit. There's no rush.
Having a great career and making lots of money and having a family of your own just keeps you stuck in samsara more .
But, my sense is that you aren't really asking for advice, but rather you are asking for agreement in a decision you've already made. Which is okay...as long as you recognize that there is a difference.
So, if you are deciding anything keep one thing in mind that your actions should be in thoughtfully deliberated and not taken in obsession. Remember you are not going on adventure, becoming monk is serious commitment both socially and spiritually. And still you reach at same conclusion then Best of Luck.
the monastery. I have spent at least every week-end, during the
past summer. and then some .....
Yes, it's alot of housework. I see it. I appreciate it.
I also know from experience what mindfulness and dedication means
when you are responsible for all that work. It's not romantic. hahahah
Keeping up with not only the physical labor, but the organization skills
and the community that it takes to keep it all going peacefully is something
I admire....... With extra disciplines thrown in, haha
I always say...I signed up in the householder line, but if anyone
feels strongly.....go forth. Just know....they are serious there. And you should
be too. If that's what you decide. Be ready.
Taking robes is not something you should rush into. Make your decision carefully.
Finish school. You'll be of greater use to your monastery with a full education.
I love stories. Reggie Ray was in graduate school working on a PhD when he approached his Guru, Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche about abandoning his studies and working with Rinpoche full-time. Rinpoche ordered him back to school saying that Ray would be more valuable to him and the mandala with his doctorate than without. Ray complied and it was a good thing he did.
Consider doing graduate school at a university that supports your aspiration. Naropa in Boulder CO comes to mind and in addition to studies that match your aspirations, there are also two disrobed lamas on staff - Lama Sarah Harding and Acharya Lama Tenpa Gyaltsen. Both are excellent teachers and could offer valuable counsel with your aspiration to take up robes.
You can also go on extended retreats where temporary vows can be taken and you can live as monks do for weeks, months and even a year or more if you desire. You can see what the life is like and decide based on that. Or you can go on a traditional 3-year retreat if you can see your way clear
You might also consider that the begining of the path is the heart of renunciation. You don't have to enter a monastery to have or cultivate that.
I gave up my job to start the process of becoming a monk. Within a week the romantic notions had gone. I confided that I was not happy and it was suggested I give it another week. I left after three weeks. Not for me. Too much like prison, which ironically is were I got a job on leaving . . .
Others are well suited, it can be a very confined, focussed and exaggerated life style. Most monks are not enlightened, there are no guarantees. Many are extremely virtuous and inspiring.
It might be for you. It might not. If you can not practice in your present situation . . . start the process . . .
You can go on retreats, which I have done and practice intensely, which some here do. That provides insight. If you ask a good teacher to join their monastery, they will probably advise retreats in holidays and finishing studies to start with. They probably have sufficient uneducated drop out monks . . .
Does the OP even have a meditation practice in place?
:wave:
Very key phrases: "it can be a very...exaggerated life style. Most monks are not enlightened, there are no guarantees."
they shipped out.....hahahaha. IMO...their circumstances just seemed right
and they seemed to have had alot of hours into it, so.....we even had little
good-bye threads. .....right?
:om:
Satisfaction and contentment can result from raising a family, having good friends and a career.
Many people have died happy after a life well lived. Having had many experiences good and bad.
And wisdom can be gained along the way.
Raising successful children is a sacrifice for the benefit of mankind. And it can be satisfying and joyful.
In my view the reasons for ordination should probably not include seeking satisfaction and contentment. In fact those thing might be considered a hindrance to a successful career as a monk.
:om:
Yes, but can those people see that becoming a monk is equally empty of meaning and satisfaction? Or are they seeking something where there is nothing to be had?
Does a monk practice dharma outside of the 5 skandhas? I've seen a lot of monks. They don't look any more satisfied than anyone else. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't, but they are in the world like me. And it's not like they are out serving people. For the most part their main service seems to be giving people a chance to make merit by giving them alms.
I have no problem with that whole system. I guess I haven't been close enough to any to see for myself that their path increases the odds of enlightenment enough to justify giving up a full life in the world.
And I'm not convinced that devoting your life to practice must exclude everything else to be ultimately satisfying. Call me from your deathbed to compare notes.
Life in a monastery is.. well.. boring and very hard to bear for many people. Others thrive, though. You can do all the soul searching you can, but you won't know if you haven't tried. I've seen friends go both ways. Some are happy now, but others who really thought they were going to do it, turned back. And that can be hard if it turns out you don't like it. Not only practically (education and all) but also emotionally. So I admire your plans, but I'd advise to not rush them.
And, you don't have to rush. Because after years of desiring the same, and slowly working towards it, soon I'll go to a monastery where I can ordain. Patience I needed in those years has also been a good teacher for me. That experience I will take with me there. Also I learned to keep holding on. Finishing my education has been one of the best things in that period. I'm still happy I did it even if I may never use it. I got so much perseverance out of it. Perhaps you can do the same. So I guess what I want to say it, not every action is fruitless. You can learn many things in 'daily life' as well. Things that may even give you an edge in a monastery.
Good luck!
:om:
To 'engage' in this world is not fruitless but fruitful. You probably could not accept its impermanence. Then, of course ,if the fruits are painful, you'd not want them to be permanent.