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Learning to love one self

So I have been trying to kick the habit of wanting to escape sobriety. It's been a realization of mine that in daily life there is a constant discontentment with the way things are and the way I am as a person, which leads to wanting to be on something a lot of the time. I just love to be out of it for some reason on drugs or what ever. It's like I need some stimulation to be satisfied with life...

Of course I realize this state of mind can be extremely self-destructive in the long run and it's something I really want to change or this "craving" might eventually kill me in the future.

Anyway I was thinking metta meditation might help with this? Learning to have some compassion for myself and accepting who I am without needing anything to enhance my consciousness.

Anyway where to start? What is the difference with normal meditation and can anyone recommend some guided ones for beginners?
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Comments

  • Woah93 said:

    So I have been trying to kick the habit of wanting to escape sobriety. It's been a realization of mine that in daily life there is a constant discontentment with the way things are and the way I am as a person, which leads to wanting to be on something a lot of the time. I just love to be out of it for some reason on drugs or what ever. It's like I need some stimulation to be satisfied with life...

    Of course I realize this state of mind can be extremely self-destructive in the long run and it's something I really want to change or this "craving" might eventually kill me in the future.

    Anyway I was thinking metta meditation might help with this? Learning to have some compassion for myself and accepting who I am without needing anything to enhance my consciousness.

    Anyway where to start? What is the difference with normal meditation and can anyone recommend some guided ones for beginners?

    Honestly, go out and volunteer with some vulnerable people. One, you will see that who you are is just fine, and two, in helping others you will be loved by others, and so you will love yourself. THIS will work infinitely quicker than meditating.
    ToshKundoReborn
  • The discontentment you feel is the realisation of the First Noble Truth - the truth of suffering. In other words, this is the human condition. The good news is you can free yourself from suffering. You can read more about the Four Noble Truths here.

    Meditation will certainly help you. There are different kinds of meditation depending on which Buddhist group (or even non-Buddhist group) you adhere to. But don't get too hung up about that. The aim is to realise your true nature which is vast and eternal. Regular meditation will bring you greater peace and joy than alcohol and drugs, and will help you liberate yourself from the attachments which cause suffering.

    Good luck with it!
    Woah93
  • Woah93 said:

    Anyway where to start? What is the difference with normal meditation and can anyone recommend some guided ones for beginners?

    This might be right up your street.
    They do a free meditation course. The last meditation involves a bottle of wine - yep really.
    http://arobuddhism.org/content/view/38/
  • Here is a great site from a Buddhist Psychologist who works with people, exactly this way.

    http://www.self-compassion.org/

    Bunks
  • Some great help here. I work with drug users, in fact, I take groups away on week visits to a Buddhist centre. In the recovery community they emphasise positive 'people, places and things'. Who are you hanging around with? Where do you hang out at? What are you doing? Can you find positive people to be around in a positive environment doing positive things? If you can then it will make a huge difference to your emotional well-being. Meditation is great, and it will help, but getting the basics in life right (like the above) will see your life shift massively in no time at all. Also, diet, exercise and sleep are vital. You will be fine. Keep talking here. Many here will understand what you are going through. Look after yourself. :)
  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran
    Hi @Woah93. I can relate to where you're coming from. Personally I would recommend professional therapy as well as meditation.

    Best of luck!
  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran
    @Woah93 - just to expand on my post above, I think it's important that you try and identify the cause of why you don't like yourself.

    Do you carry a lot of guilt for things you have done to others in the past? Or anger about things done to you?

    If you can start to deal with these things you may find you can start to forgive yourself and others. This is where a psychiatrist or psychologist may be able to help.
  • Well it's kind of hard to point out what is making me feel dissatisfied, but I guess I just give my self a lot of trouble for mistakes I make, like I'm very easily disappointed in myself for not doing things like I wanted to. I'm kind of a perfectionist so me giving myself so much crap is taking it's toll I guess... Actually what others say or do doesn't even lift my eyebrows, I am really my own worst enemy here.

    I do have a good environment, good friends and a great hobby but in terms of avoiding getting high it's my worst enemy. I DJ techno in clubs and all my friends are involved in that scene and substances are everywhere. I also create a lot of music in my spare time and creativity wise I do have a certain amount of pressure from labels to make a release so it isn't really easy on me...
  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran
    Perfectionism is one of the most common "personality disorders" (if I can call it that) that a professional therapist would deal with.

    It's interesting that you say that you are not bothered by what others do? My experience with perfectionists (I seem to be surrounded by them!!) is that they also set high standards for those around them. Everyone's different though.

    Bear in mind it may be the use of drugs that is causing your sense of dissatisfaction.
  • I am really my own worst enemy here.
    When you are ready you will change, till then . . . :rocker:
    You know it, your best friend 'the enemy' knows it. You are just your everyday ignorant drug taking shithead [a technical term but hey! you know that!] Anything else you want to hear? I would do puja and prayers for you but why waste both of our efforts?
    Having a good time?
    Woah93 said:

    I do have a good environment, good friends and a great hobby

    You think? Do you love it? If so party on . . . :rockon:

    You probably do OK for money. Arrange a perfect retreat if you are serious.
    http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/4959/buddhism-and-music
    https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=www.ocu&hl=en
    image
    JoyfulGirl
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Bunks said:

    Perfectionism is one of the most common "personality disorders" (if I can call it that) that a professional therapist would deal with.

    It's interesting that you say that you are not bothered by what others do? My experience with perfectionists (I seem to be surrounded by them!!) is that they also set high standards for those around them. Everyone's different though.

    Bear in mind it may be the use of drugs that is causing your sense of dissatisfaction.

    I don't think perfectionism is necessarily bad.

    I wanted my kidney surgeon to be a perfectionist.
    I wanted my cardiologist to be a perfectionist.

    BunkslobsterKundoJoyfulGirl
  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran
    vinlyn said:

    Bunks said:

    Perfectionism is one of the most common "personality disorders" (if I can call it that) that a professional therapist would deal with.

    It's interesting that you say that you are not bothered by what others do? My experience with perfectionists (I seem to be surrounded by them!!) is that they also set high standards for those around them. Everyone's different though.

    Bear in mind it may be the use of drugs that is causing your sense of dissatisfaction.

    I don't think perfectionism is necessarily bad.

    I wanted my kidney surgeon to be a perfectionist.
    I wanted my cardiologist to be a perfectionist.

    If it is having an adverse affect on your health and relationship with colleagues family or friends (which it often does) then maybe it's something that should be dealth with.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    edited October 2013
    I agree with that. Unless you're saying that collegiality should suggest less than excellence, that family should suggest less than excellence, that friends should suggest less than excellence.

    I'd say some of the people on this forum are perfectionists in their practice.
  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran
    vinlyn said:

    I agree with that. Unless you're saying that collegiality should suggest less than excellence, that family should suggest less than excellence, that friends should suggest less than excellence.

    I'd say some of the people on this forum are perfectionists in their practice.

    Perfectionism can also have the adverse affect where the sufferer actually doesn't attempt things through a fear of failure.

    My wife tells me of times where she left the supermarket with her mum empty handed and her mum would be in tears because she couldn't decide what to buy for dinner that night! That is obviously an extreme case.

    Anyway, I have gone waaaaaay off topic. This is something close to my heart though.
  • ToshTosh Veteran


    Honestly, go out and volunteer with some vulnerable people. One, you will see that who you are is just fine, and two, in helping others you will be loved by others, and so you will love yourself. THIS will work infinitely quicker than meditating.

    Yes, I agree. If you want to love yourself, try loving others ('love' being the simple wish for others to be happy). By helping others, you'll come to love yourself. Fake compassion if need be to begin with.

    I'm a member of A.A. and the emphasis of a 12 Step program is on helping 'the still suffering alcoholic'.

    A good book is:

    http://www.amazon.com/The-12-Step-Buddhist-Recovery-Addiction/dp/1582702233

    Written by a recovered alcoholic drug addict and a serious Buddhist practitioner.
    lobsterBunks
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    I'd say if you want to love yourself, try accepting others as they are. And then providing assistance to others when it is wanted.
  • Written by a recovered alcoholic drug addict and a serious Buddhist practitioner.
    :clap: You do good @Tosh . . . an inspiration. I will dedicate my morning practice you and all addicts. In one sense we are all addicted to our own suffering masquerading as [insert favoured ignorance of choice] In fact I am going to do some extra, 'coz that is my sort of drug . . . :wave:
    Tosh
  • ToshTosh Veteran
    vinlyn said:

    I'd say if you want to love yourself, try accepting others as they are.

    I think the main METHOD to arrive at the place where we can accept others as they are is by practising love and compassion for others.

    I often read stuff that says 'be like this', but I just can't transmogrify myself by thought alone; I really need a method. For example I need to do this, this, and this, and the result is an acceptance of others. I can't force acceptance; God knows I've tried hard enough. Acceptance is something that comes; sometimes it takes time, but I'm not patient; I like a method.

    It's why I'm a huge fan of the 12 Steps; it provides a simple (but not easy) method for people like me, who're often greatly confused. And if you look past the 'white, middle class, American, Christian' language, the method is very 'Buddhist' too.

    My advice is that if we're suffering with some gross problem is to find a bunch of other folk who've suffered with the same thing, and find out what they did to recover from that hopeless state of mind and body that gets us back to drinking and drugging.

    Non alcoholics/addicts; no matter how intelligent, well read and well meaning - they may understand some of our problems - but they will never truly know what it's like to be an alcoholic or an addict; or both.
    EvenThird
  • Tosh said:

    vinlyn said:

    I'd say if you want to love yourself, try accepting others as they are.

    I think the main METHOD to arrive at the place where we can accept others as they are is by practising love and compassion for others.

    I often read stuff that says 'be like this', but I just can't transmogrify myself by thought alone; I really need a method. For example I need to do this, this, and this, and the result is an acceptance of others. I can't force acceptance; God knows I've tried hard enough. Acceptance is something that comes; sometimes it takes time, but I'm not patient; I like a method.

    It's why I'm a huge fan of the 12 Steps; it provides a simple (but not easy) method for people like me, who're often greatly confused. And if you look past the 'white, middle class, American, Christian' language, the method is very 'Buddhist' too.

    My advice is that if we're suffering with some gross problem is to find a bunch of other folk who've suffered with the same thing, and find out what they did to recover from that hopeless state of mind and body that gets us back to drinking and drugging.

    Non alcoholics/addicts; no matter how intelligent, well read and well meaning - they may understand some of our problems - but they will never truly know what it's like to be an alcoholic or an addict; or both.
    I agree, the easiest way to love ourselves is to be loved by others, and the easiest way to be loved by others is to help them, care for them, serve them, love them. As I said, go and volunteer with some vulnerable people... addicts, mentally ill, learning difficulties, abused, neglected youth, whoever. They'll appreciate you, they'll care about you, and through their eyes you will begin to see yourself differently. But, to be honest, it's going to be very hard for any human being to love themselves if they are not being a loving person. There really is very little other ground for loving ourselves. You can't be a Hitler and love yourself. To truly love yourself you are going to need to see yourself as a good person - a person worthy of being loved, and that's going to be very difficult to do unless you are actively helping others.
  • But isn't it the case when being dependant on whether or not other people like you or love you you will be like an emotional sponge? I mean it's something we sometimes don't have control over and there will always be people who dislike you/even hate you for no apparent reason. I keep hearing that you have to love yourself first before you can give and share love to others so I'm a little bit confused now, I do love the people I have in my life, I'm just not good at showing it or opening up about it.

    Also want to clarify I don't regularly take drugs or alcohol at all, but it's a craving I feel and it worries me, I think theres a high risk of it BECOMING a regular thing down the road if I don't deal with this "desire" to be stimulated from something... I hope you some of you know the feeling I'm talking about
  • Woah93 said:

    But isn't it the case when being dependant on whether or not other people like you or love you you will be like an emotional sponge? I mean it's something we sometimes don't have control over and there will always be people who dislike you/even hate you for no apparent reason. I keep hearing that you have to love yourself first before you can give and share love to others so I'm a little bit confused now, I do love the people I have in my life, I'm just not good at showing it or opening up about it.

    You do love yourself. You want to be happy, right? Well, that's your love for you. You don't want to be in pain, yeah? That's your love for you. You just want to love yourself more. Which is good! Now you just need to give yourself good reasons to love yourself more. Which is where being a loving, compassionate person comes into it.

    Think about the qualities you value in others. Do you like people who are kind to you or who are mean to you? Do you like people who are generous or selfish? Do you like people who support and encourage you or people who put you down? Now, think about how you treat those who are good to you... I'm guessing you treat them well back, yeah? Which enhances their life and their happiness. If one of your friends is feeling down then you'll support them, if they are short on money you'll buy them some food, if they are feeling bored you'll hang out with them.

    Do you see how this giving of love to one another enhances everyones lives? Do you see that the more love you give, the kinder you are, the more compassion you express, the more understanding you are, then the more of all of this you will get back? Think about how all of that love given out and received back will enhance and benefit your life. Think about all the people who will watch out for you, care for you, support you, give you opportunities, help you out, pick you up etc. etc. This basic positive human interaction is the key to your happiness.

    BUT, as you pointed out, there are problems that litter this path. This is why Buddhism emphasises compassion AND wisdom. It is no good for us to simply go around trying to please everyone and make everyone like us. For one thing, that isn't actually you loving them, because your efforts are for your gain, not theirs. For another, love isn't as simple as just trying to please others. However, wisdom is easily acquired... How? Through walking the path! Get out there and start loving people. You'll make mistakes, but that's okay! Just stay open to lessons, be humble when mistakes are made, and be ready to grow as and when growth is available to you... which is pretty much always. It's just like learning anything. If you want to be a great chef then sure, you can read books, you can sit and reflect on recipes, but at some point the only way to be a great chef is to start working with the food. Mistakes will be made, cakes will be flat, steaks will be burnt, and so on, but through these mistakes, through walking this path, you will learn. Don't overcomplicate this. You have a heart. Use it! It won't lead you astray.

    Woah93
  • Humans seem to be the only species which has a problem loving itself. Do birds or dogs sit around worrying about self-esteem? So where does this self loathing come from?

    A large part of being social animals involves conforming to society. We are brought up to behave in certain ways, to have certain opinions and do certain things, to be accepted in the group. This means having to constantly watch ourselves, criticise our every thought and deed. If people don't like me I wonder what I have done wrong, what I can change in my behaviour to be liked. And so I change this or that, and maybe it works but maybe it doesn't. And there I am, still stuck with my feelings of inadequacy, wondering what is wrong with me. How much of our lives do we waste on this kind of thinking? And even if I do finally hit the jackpot and people seem to like me, I may briefly feel better about myself. But then someone having a bad day shouts at me and I'm back to square one, feeling wracked with doubt and anxiety. It's a futile exercise because at the end of the day I still don't really like myself whatever others think.

    Through meditation the Buddha discovered that this state of "suffering" can be ended. Eckhart Tolle tells a story about a beggar sitting on a box. He is constantly asking people for what he needs when all the time the box beneath him is full of riches beyond his wildest dreams. This is what we are like, always looking outwards for the solution to our suffering when what we really need to do is look inside.
    Woah93lobster
  • Woah93Woah93 Veteran
    edited October 2013
    But how does just one go out and "start loving people"? Do I have to go outside and start giving change to hobos on the street? I already am always there for my friends, in fact I recently talked one of them out of a downswing and got him into meditating which really helps him with his anxiety, I gave most of my old clothes I don't fit to someone who doesn't have much to spend which made him real happy, and I generally do help people when I see I can give it to them, however to go out of my way to help strangers out of love is kind of a vague concept to me outside of the obvious like doing charity, what is meant by this?

    edit:
    @ Poptart

    Yes when I meditate all of these issues generally fade, and I do feel content, no matter what state I am in I do realize most of the insecurity's in daily life are bullshit, but when I'm not meditating it all comes flushing back and it's just a struggle really, I seem to have a hard time incorporating my meditative way of being into daily life, and I have been doing a formal sitting practice 15-30 minutes a day for a couple of months now. Sometimes I do have moments during the day that I suddenly snap out of my thoughts and become "awake" but these seem much more rare then I would like
  • Woah93 said:

    But how does just one go out and "start loving people"? Do I have to go outside and start giving change to hobos on the street? I already am always there for my friends, in fact I recently talked one of them out of a downswing and got him into meditating which really helps him with his anxiety, I gave most of my old clothes I don't fit to someone who doesn't have much to spend which made him real happy, and I generally do help people when I see I can give it to them, however to go out of my way to help strangers out of love is kind of a vague concept to me outside of the obvious like doing charity, what is meant by this?

    I'd suggest volunteering at a local service. Maybe one that works with addicts, or the mentally ill, or with learning difficulties, or the homeless, whatever and whoever floats your boat. I volunteered with recovering addicts for a few years and it did me wonders. It showed me that who I was was not at all bad and that others had done far worse in their lives than I had and have far bigger issues to deal with (perspective), and it showed me that I had a lot to offer these people as working with them brought all my compassion and love and kindness to the surface. Putting yourself in a situation where your goodness is needed minute after minute all day long is what will transform you. Doing the odd good act - whilst nice - isn't going to transform your self perception. You need to see how much goodness there is in you. You'll do that by consistently being around people who need that goodness.
    Woah93ToshBunks
  • AllbuddhaBoundAllbuddhaBound Veteran
    edited October 2013
    Is the love of others what comes first? Or is it the love of self?

    If you do not love yourself but you love others, then you are a martyr heading for a world of disappointment and resentment. Any time you place your destiny in the hands of others, disappointment is not far behind.

    Being compassionate is not something you do to others, it is a way of being in the world. Being compassionate has to include yourself. Most people find it easy to be kind to others, but we as a culture are very hard on ourselves. People who are hard on themselves, are hard on others. Sooner or later, it turns out this way. Just take a look at how a parent who has always put the kids first, feels when the kids don't show any appreciation. You want to see resentment and negativity? So the kindness they showed their kids was completely conditional. They are not really kind and loving, it did not come from the heart. It came from a sense of duty or belief that they have to in order to be a good parent. If they would love themselves and their kids equally, then I believe they do so because of love, not because of external approval. And when the kids do disappoint, they can be forgiving and not resentful. They cut their kids a break, like they do themselves.

    Also, when people hold themselves to a very high standard, (no failures, high high achievements, etc.), they pass it on to their kids. If they treat themselves with no tolerance for anything less than perfection, they hold their kids to the same standard and if they do not measure up, then you get the judgments and condemnation. No freedom to be an individual.

    I find, given the propensity in Western society for self destruction, that a person is better served to find compassionate living when they start with themselves.
    Bunks
  • That is what I was thinking, I guess I have to get rid of these extremely high standards I put up for myself. It's kind of a hard habit to break though, when meditating I realize I have been so tense the entire day and only then am I aware of it but otherwise it's like I'm not allowing myself to be happy or relax until I have done activity x or x.... Of course when that's done there is the next thing to be done
    lobster
  • ToshTosh Veteran
    edited October 2013
    Woah93 said:

    But isn't it the case when being dependant on whether or not other people like you or love you you will be like an emotional sponge?

    It's more complex than that. Here you're hinting towards co-dependency; which isn't good. I know Buddhism points towards no-self; but conventionally speaking we all have a concept of self - an idea of who we think we are.

    By helping others what happens is that we change our self concept of ourselves; happiness comes from within; you've heard that? By practising compassion we see ourselves as a worthwhile person; someone who has value; someone who is kind and caring. It really doesn't matter if we actually do help someone - I'm always helping alkies who drink again (I take the right actions but don't worry too much about the results) - the point is that my actions are fuelled by a compassionate desire.

    We've a phrase in A.A. called 'faking it till you make it'. Fake compassion if you must, but go and help someone - make yourself useful. Don't be daft about it; don't run yourself into the ground and suffer with compassionate fatigue (I've done this). If you're tired, rest. If you need time to go to the pictures and watch a film - you can do this - but you can do it with a compassionate intention that for you to be compassionate to others, you must also look after yourself.

    And remember, all this stuff is testable. If you think you can just sit on a mat and think yourself happy - or recite "I love myself" again and again in front of a mirror, and it'll work, try it. But my experience is that I only started liking myself when I started being of service to others.

    The reason why I don't call myself a Buddhist is because I don't think it would help anyone if I did. Indeed, alkies who don't know anything about Buddhism may even think I'm weird which may prevent me from helping them. I therefore call myself a 'recovered alcoholic' and a member of A.A. purely because - for me - that's where I'm of use to others.

    I explained this to a monk, citing it as the reason for not continuing with my Buddhist studies; he said people in A.A. were 'front line Boddhisatvas'; my ego really liked that.

    Join us on the firing line; test it for yourself.
    mindatrisklobster
  • ToshTosh Veteran
    edited October 2013
    Mindatrisk gives some good advice. I'm guessing he sees alkies/addicts at their worst on occasions and from that understands how a self centred mind can harm us.

    We alcoholics are good teachers! :D
  • Tosh said:

    Woah93 said:

    But isn't it the case when being dependant on whether or not other people like you or love you you will be like an emotional sponge?

    It's more complex than that. Here you're hinting towards co-dependency; which isn't good. I know Buddhism points towards no-self; but conventionally speaking we all have a concept of self - an idea of who we think we are.

    By helping others what happens is that we change our self concept of ourselves; happiness comes from within; you've heard that? By practising compassion we see ourselves as a worthwhile person; someone who has value; someone who is kind and caring. It really doesn't matter if we actually do help someone - I'm always helping alkies who drink again (I take the right actions but don't worry too much about the results) - the point is that my actions are fuelled by a compassionate desire.

    We've a phrase in A.A. called 'faking it till you make it'. Fake compassion if you must, but go and help someone - make yourself useful. Don't be daft about it; don't run yourself into the ground and suffer with compassionate burn-out (I've done this). If you're tired, rest. If you need time to go to the pictures and watch a film - you can do this - but you can do it with a compassionate intention that for you to be compassionate to others, you must also look after yourself.

    And remember, all this stuff is testable. If you think you can just sit on a mat and think yourself happy - or recite "I love myself" again and again in front of a mirror, and it'll work, try it. But my experience is that I only started liking myself when I started being of service to others.

    The reason why I don't call myself a Buddhist is because I don't think it would help anyone if I did. Indeed, alkies who don't know anything about Buddhism may even think I'm weird which may prevent me from helping them. I therefore call myself a 'recovered alcoholic' and a member of A.A. purely because - for me - that's where I'm of use to others.

    I explained this to a monk, citing it as the reason for not continuing with my Buddhist studies; he said people in A.A. were 'front line Boddhisatvas'; my ego really liked that.

    Join us on the firing line; test it for yourself.
    I like your style. It is curious that you and I see things so similarly having both been within the recovery community. I think maybe because we have both seen what simple kindness and compassion in action can achieve. We've both seen lives transformed from utter and total wrecks to genuine hope and progress. And from reading your words I sense in you a man transformed by the compassion you found within from being of service. Sitting in meditation and nurturing a loving mind is one thing, but living it and expressing it and seeing the miracles it performs puts something in your heart - a passion, if you will, that can only be found in the experience. Bless you and your work. For me, you embody modern Buddhism.
    ToshBunkslobster
  • ToshTosh Veteran
    poptart said:


    Through meditation the Buddha discovered that this state of "suffering" can be ended.

    As far as I'm aware the eightfold path can be put into three headings:

    1. Ethical life
    2. The cultivation of wisdom (meditation fits in here)
    3. The practise of compassion

    We need to live an ethical life (whatever that means to us as an individual) to find the peace to be able to meditate.

    I tried mindfulness and meditation when I first arrived in A.A. (I developed an interest in Buddhism at the same time). It didn't work. It's tough to be mindful when you're dragging around 20 years worth of resentments with you and you're racked with guilt, shame and remorse while getting hounded by bailiffs chasing you for money.

    My point is that there's more to the ending of suffering than just meditation; and I'm sure the Buddha didn't start teaching anyone new meditation straight away - for some very good practical reasons, just like in a 12 Step program meditation is at Step 11, not Step 1.

    One thing that did help me in my early sober days - straight away - was helping other alcoholics. It took my mind off my problems for a while and gave me a break from them. And eventually, as I cleaned up my past and began developing a manner of living in accordance with living an ethical life (whatever that means to me), I found enough peace of mind to enable me to be able to begin a meditation practise.

    Just my experience.
    lobster
  • Woah93 said:


    @ Poptart

    Yes when I meditate all of these issues generally fade, and I do feel content, no matter what state I am in I do realize most of the insecurity's in daily life are bullshit, but when I'm not meditating it all comes flushing back and it's just a struggle really, I seem to have a hard time incorporating my meditative way of being into daily life, and I have been doing a formal sitting practice 15-30 minutes a day for a couple of months now. Sometimes I do have moments during the day that I suddenly snap out of my thoughts and become "awake" but these seem much more rare then I would like

    Two months isn't a long time. Samsara is tough, no question, and mindfulness is a habit that takes time to learn. Be patient with yourself. This is a lifetime's work, even several lifetimes! But you are getting glimpses of Buddha nature and you will get there eventually. Perhaps you would benefit from finding a teacher or joining a Buddhist group to meditate with. It helps to have someone experienced on hand to answer questions and give you guidance.
  • Metta meditation is the best thing.

  • howhow Veteran Veteran

    Finding out what stops you manifesting love (to anything) is the question that has been helpful to me in allowing love to manifest anywhere.
    ToshBunks
  • ToshTosh Veteran
    how said:


    Finding out what stops you manifesting love (to anything) is the question that has been helpful to me in allowing love to manifest anywhere.

    That is very good, How. For me it was resentments, shame and guilt. I treated these using the 12 Step program; taking a good look at myself, getting it down on paper, speaking to another human being about it and then making amends to those I'd harmed. It was a real spiritual experience dealing with my messy past; wasn't easy though; but I found some measure of freedom in the process.

    Can I ask what answers you found to your question?

  • For me it's stress I think and having a to-do list which doesn't end. Thinking about what I want to put in my day is wearing me down more then actually doing them... if that makes sense, it's very hard for me to actually go about my day without worry or striving, which is why I think I think loving myself more and realizing I have enough time to do the things I want to do will help.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited October 2013
    @Tosh said, As far as I'm aware the eightfold path can be put into three headings:

    1. Ethical life
    2. The cultivation of wisdom (meditation fits in here)
    3. The practise of compassion
    Number 1 includes practicing compassion. It should be:


    1. ethical life including the practise of compassion
    2. The cultivation of wisdom
    3. taming the mind or concentration or samadhi

    1: right action, right speech, right livelyhood
    2: right view, right intention
    3: right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration
  • AllbuddhaBoundAllbuddhaBound Veteran
    edited October 2013



    "I'd suggest volunteering at a local service. Maybe one that works with addicts, or the mentally ill, or with learning difficulties, or the homeless, whatever and whoever floats your boat. I volunteered with recovering addicts for a few years and it did me wonders. It showed me that who I was was not at all bad and that others had done far worse in their lives than I had and have far bigger issues to deal with (perspective), and it showed me that I had a lot to offer these people as working with them brought all my compassion and love and kindness to the surface. Putting yourself in a situation where your goodness is needed minute after minute all day long is what will transform you. Doing the odd good act - whilst nice - isn't going to transform your self perception. You need to see how much goodness there is in you. You'll do that by consistently being around people who need that goodness."

    The problem is, you are comparing yourself with these people. It requires judgement and comparison. I don't mean to be ignorant, but it is patronizing. For true compassion, is there room for patronizing?


  • For true compassion, is there room for patronizing?

    Yes. You don't need 'true compassion' to start . . .
    The Sufis says that "the apparent is the bridge to the real," i.e. by experiencing the objects of the world, we may pass through them to get at the Absolute.

    :wave:
  • AllbuddhaBoundAllbuddhaBound Veteran
    edited October 2013
    Fair enough. It is a place to start towards the real. But by true compassion, I mean the "real" the Sufis are talking about, would mean a lack of judging.

    I respect the fact that mindatrisk cares for others. We need more people like that.
    When you work with people though, they appreciate feeling as if they are not judged. Even if they have made mistakes, they need to get over feeling they are "bad".
  • howhow Veteran Veteran

    Tosh said:

    how said:


    Finding out what stops you manifesting love (to anything) is the question that has been helpful to me in allowing love to manifest anywhere.

    That is very good, How. For me it was resentments, shame and guilt. I treated these using the 12 Step program; taking a good look at myself, getting it down on paper, speaking to another human being about it and then making amends to those I'd harmed. It was a real spiritual experience dealing with my messy past; wasn't easy though; but I found some measure of freedom in the process.

    Can I ask what answers you found to your question?

    @Tosh
    I now think that real love is just the absense of identity. My meager proof of this is that in whatever areas I've been able to let go of my investments in my own identity, love, unbidden, has replaced it.
    I have not intentionally tried to create love in this way, rather have found that by deliberately not energizing my habituated responses to phenomena, a veil that formally obscured love's presence is dropped.
    I guess I believe that the ego is that veil.
    EvenThirdlobsterTosh
  • I know that many people believe that one must experience shame in order to get better, but that is not what research has proven. There are hundreds of studies that have suggested that shame, is what underlies many mental health disorders.

    In fact, a well known researcher named Brene Brown states that in every mental health disorder except for one (psychopathy), shame does more damage than good.

    The place I actually began to look at love of self as an important component of health, was Buddhism. In fact, a basic attraction Buddhism holds for me, is an absence of duality. In the west, we have been raised on shame or guilt, but the Dalai Lama was completely surprised when he found out people think this way in the West. He did not understand the concept.

    The west is finally beginning to study the whole idea behind self-compassion and it has proven to be extremely effective in treating mental illness.

    Basically, the concept is, feel and accept your shame or guilt, but act for all beings best interests, including yourself. To be caring, gentle and nurturing.

    Shame and guilt create cortisol and adrenalin, and they create fear, anxiety, anger and the like. These levels are high in depressed people. They are basic to fight or flight. Self care induces oxytocin and opiates, the feel good hormones. They are correlated with motivation, happiness and feelings of well-being.

    Are there any Buddhist teachings that suggest "you should be ashamed"? Maybe there are but I have never really come across any. I am sure some of you will enlighten me.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    Woah93 said:



    Yes when I meditate all of these issues generally fade, and I do feel content, no matter what state I am in I do realize most of the insecurity's in daily life are bullshit, but when I'm not meditating it all comes flushing back and it's just a struggle really, I seem to have a hard time incorporating my meditative way of being into daily life, and I have been doing a formal sitting practice 15-30 minutes a day for a couple of months now.

    FWIW, a couple of months is a very, very, very, very, short time period. It's almost like saying "I've been playing baseball for 2 months now and have yet to hit a home run. How come?"

    Putting it like this, I think the answer is obvious. :)
    Sometimes I do have moments during the day that I suddenly snap out of my thoughts and become "awake" but these seem much more rare then I would like
    The wise men say these moments become more and more common the more you do the practice. If you want to "speed it up", doing a meditation retreat is real good for that. :)

    lobster


  • The problem is, you are comparing yourself with these people. It requires judgement and comparison. I don't mean to be ignorant, but it is patronizing. For true compassion, is there room for patronizing?

    I think it's just putting things into perspective. For example, I might complain that I am 'starving', but then if I stop and thought about the people who are actually starving then my attitude would improve. It's not a case of putting down the other group by comparing with them - more recognising your own fortune. When you spend time with addicts, some of whom have led extraordinarily destructive lives, then it puts into perspective the issues that you yourself have to deal with, especially if you see that some of these people are confronting these issues, finding peace, and living happy lives. It's inspiring. I don't see anything wrong with this. It works. It's not like your announcing your thought process to everyone.
  • ToshTosh Veteran
    edited October 2013
    The Four Noble Truths by Geshe Tashi Tsering
    Only when we start cherishing others will true happiness grow within us.
    It's 7.54 am and I'm sat here with my morning coffee; a time for reflection. In my past when my drinking was at it's worst I'd regain consciousness (alcoholics don't 'wake up') and the first thing that I used to think was "M-O-N-E-Y" because the bailiffs were hot on my heels. And even when I ended up in A.A., I wasn't concerned about the Step where I made amends to those I'd harmed, I wanted to know where the step was that got me £10K so I could sort what I thought were my real my problems out.

    But this Saturday I'm off to an A.A. conference - an all day affair - there'll be a few hundred alcoholics there and my job is selling raffle tickets with another guy who joined me at last years conference; this other guy is called Michael and he was two days sober then. He asked me to be his A.A. sponsor and I agreed, but from now until Christmas Eve last year he'd wake up in a police cell and had two trips to the hospital by ambulance; he was only 26 years old. He'd spent a period of time living on the streets, he can't read or write and he was just a mess.

    His last drink was on Christmas Eve and he spent Christmas day alone and feeling like death and utterly miserable.

    So this morning I woke up thinking about all the achievements he's made this year; he's went through the 12 Steps, he stayed away from drink and drugs, he's stopped smoking, he's stopped taking his sleeping medication (Zopiclone (the street name for this drug is 'charge sheet'); powerful stuff and rarely given out these days); he's even started running with me and completed a half marathon. This was a huge deal for a guy who thinks he has achieved very little in his life; and he continues to run. He's happier, more peaceful, and I've just loved watching this guy's struggle with alcohol, stopping drinking, progressing through the Steps, and watching him change.

    He does service and helps other alcoholics. I wonder if any of you guys have experienced the pleasure you can get by watching a guy who you've helped get sober then start helping others get sober? It's lump in the throat time. I love the guy; I'm really looking forward to his sobriety birthday on 24th December.

    For myself, waking up thinking about Michael was a far happier affair than waking up thinking only about myself.

    The thing about Buddhist teachings is that we can test them and judge the results for ourselves. Has the practise of compassion made me happier? Definitely.

    My name is Tosh and I'm an oxytocin addict.
    lobster
  • Wow Tosh,

    I was gonna write about the effects of giving up coffee . . . :o

    Give my best to Michael. Outstanding inspiration. Sounds like the kind of inspiring Buddha potential we need . . . :clap:

    My name is Crusty and I am a circus freak and meditation addict. :wave:
    Tosh
  • ToshTosh Veteran
    Michael is actually using meditation to help with his sleeping problem. He's been off the zopiclone for about a month now; in the past if he stopped taking his medication, after three days he was looking wild through lack of sleep and he'd end up drinking again. He's come off them after a review with his doctor (him and his doc are on first name terms).

    He's also telling me that members of his family are coming to him with their problems now; either looking for advice or someone to talk to. If you knew Michael when he was drinking, that's amazing stuff.

    I've other stories, but I'll not bore on.
  • AllbuddhaBoundAllbuddhaBound Veteran
    edited October 2013
    Tosh said:

    The Four Noble Truths by Geshe Tashi Tsering

    Only when we start cherishing others will true happiness grow within us.


    The thing about Buddhist teachings is that we can test them and judge the results for ourselves. Has the practise of compassion made me happier? Definitely.

    My name is Tosh and I'm an oxytocin addict.

    Testing them and judging the results would be reasearch. A Buddhist psychologist by the name of Kristin Neff is a researcher who has spent over 10 years of research studying the benefit of self-compassion. She feels people heal without having to wear a hair shirt, simply by loving themselves. She has also healed many people.

    Another researcher, by the name of Brene Brown, a social worker spent 18 years researching in this area of shame, and she calls the shame we bring upon ourselves an epidemic. She too, is well known for her ability to help people get better.

    And the Dalai Lama himself suggests that we in the West are too hard on ourselves. I am sure he has tested his beliefs as well. He too has helped a few people.

    With all of this shame around, it is little wonder the drug companies are able to be so prolific in our society. They don't seem to have the same success in countries like Thailand where the population is 95% Buddhist, and the people are said to be much happier than we in the west. And isn't it interesting in a country like Japan where shame is practically a national pasttime, the suicide rates are so high.

    Alcoholism or addiction are highly correlated with shame. The belief that something that got someone into an addiction, is the only way out, is curious. If a person truly loved themselves, and cared about what happened to them, would they even get addicted?

    And what about eating disorders? They have an extremely high shame component to them. Do you suggest that anorexics need to shame themselves in order to overcome it? The research would suggest that is the last thing they need.


  • ToshTosh Veteran
    edited October 2013



    Alcoholism or addiction are highly correlated with shame. The belief that something that got someone into an addiction, is the only way out, is curious. If a person truly loved themselves, and cared about what happened to them, would they even get addicted?

    And what about eating disorders? They have an extremely high shame component to them. Do you suggest that anorexics need to shame themselves in order to overcome it? The research would suggest that is the last thing they need.

    I'm not sure why you're putting emphasis on shame, @AllbuddhaBound. I feel no shame at all and I don't hide the fact that I'm an alcoholic from anyone if I think I can help in some way.

    And I'm not sure what your point is about why people get addicted; it's not a choice - it's just something that happens. Trying to work out why I'm an alcoholic is basically an imponderable (it reminds me of Buddhism's stance towards the existential questions); we basically admit we've a problem and work on the solution. We don't need to understand why we're alcoholics, we only need to know how to recover from our alcoholism; just like in the Arrow sutra, we don't need to understand why we're here, only how to find release from suffering.

    Anyway, I'm not even sure what it means to want to 'love yourself'. I just want to be happy and avoid pain and suffering; isn't that the same thing? My experience is that practising compassion for others helps with that.

    What's your experience?
  • Of course one should never put a diagnosis on people online, but to me you sound depressed. Like you feel that your life is a bit empty now, and it is kind of interesting to hear you say that you tink you have a good hobby and friends non the less you feel like you need to be high...
  • AllbuddhaBoundAllbuddhaBound Veteran
    edited October 2013
    Shame can take forms like feeling at times a person is not good enough. Not smart enough. Not handsome/pretty enough. Not strong enough. Not thin enough. Take myself for example, I have a pot belly. When I am on the beach, and most of the people around me are buff, I may want to wear a loose shirt, or avoid walking around. I will want to disappear. I am ashamed of myself. There are, of course, other forms of shame as well. Like feeling ashamed for hurting people, or making mistakes. Lots of different reasons. We all find them.

    To love yourself under those circumstances, can be as simple as comforting yourself. So me with my pot belly, I will focus on something I appreciate about myself. Or I may say something like "hey man, that belly is doing me a favor. If I didn't have that belly, I would probably really eat badly and end up dead at a too young age. Thanks to belly fat, I am more cautious."

    I work with people who have a lot of mental health issues all over the map, and getting them to let go of shame and appreciate themselves, is a real boon to mental health. It is surprising how many people feel they need to feel shame to improve. That is the way we have been raised in the west. People do better, and are more motivated when they feel good about themselves/

    I should also add, the problem with comparing ourselves to others, sets us up to feel superior or inferior. Either of those extremes can also be issues for mental health.
    ToshWoah93
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