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The dark side of our society...

Woah93Woah93 Veteran
edited October 2013 in Diet & Habits


Video's like this make me feel ashamed to be human.

Comments

  • It is gruesome... I admit.
    But what is the practical, logical (alternate) solution for feeding millions/billions of people? Please don't say vegetarianism, because that comes with its own load of issues and environmental problems...
    ChazvinlynNeitherKundo
  • There has to be a better way... there is a reason the US refused to let them shoot this in their slaughterhouses. People who are aware of this tend to avoid over consuming like shown, I really think there should be more awareness on our food outside of the supermarket....
  • MaryAnne said:

    Please don't say vegetarianism, because that comes with its own load of issues and environmental problems...

    What environmental issues are these? I'm woefully ignorant about the subject, despite being a vegetarian myself -- could you tell us more?
  • TheEccentricTheEccentric South east, UK Veteran
    fewzy said:

    MaryAnne said:

    Please don't say vegetarianism, because that comes with its own load of issues and environmental problems...

    What environmental issues are these? I'm woefully ignorant about the subject, despite being a vegetarian myself -- could you tell us more?
    There isn't really enough land where crops can be grown to feed the world's growing population.
    ChazvinlynInc88cvalue
  • matthewmartinmatthewmartin Amateur Bodhisattva Suburbs of Mt Meru Veteran

    There isn't really enough land where crops can be grown to feed the world's growing population.

    Per wikipedia "Grazing systems supply approximately 9 percent of the world's production of beef, according to Food and Agriculture Organization FAO statistics.[1]"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle_feeding

    So the other 91% of beef is eating X calories of corn and turning it into some percentage of X calories of edible food. I've eaten polenta, is quite palatable and in some parts of the world, people more or less subsist on it.

    The argument for the local inviability of farming is more convincing in Murmansk, Iceland, Alaska, the Sahara, tops of mountains, etc.

    EvenThird
  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran

    fewzy said:

    MaryAnne said:

    Please don't say vegetarianism, because that comes with its own load of issues and environmental problems...

    What environmental issues are these? I'm woefully ignorant about the subject, despite being a vegetarian myself -- could you tell us more?
    There isn't really enough land where crops can be grown to feed the world's growing population.
    Huge issue, that!

    Air polution from the dust that arises from plowing. Pesticides. Herbicides. Fertilizers. The process of applying those as well as harvesting kills a lot of sentient beings - reptiles, rodents, birds, not to mention poluting water sources. We running out of fresh water, too.

    That and as TE mentions we're running out of arrable land and this problem will become even worse as a sea levels continue to rise (global warming) wiping out cropland. This will lead to war. War leads to .......

    What we need to do is lower the population. Drastically. Starting now. Before nature does it for us (and it will).

  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran
    edited October 2013
    Woah93 said:

    There has to be a better way... there is a reason the US refused to let them shoot this in their slaughterhouses.

    Yeah, but at least the video didn't offer much footage of actuall killing. You want gruesome?????

  • Disturbing.

    Also, all over the world, there is a lot of killing of human beings as a result of wars, violent crime, communal strife and domestic violence. That's another reason to be ashamed of being human.
    Chaz
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited October 2013
    MaryAnne said:

    It is gruesome... I admit.
    But what is the practical, logical (alternate) solution for feeding millions/billions of people? Please don't say vegetarianism, because that comes with its own load of issues and environmental problems...

    Vegetarianism.

    :D

    fewzy said:

    MaryAnne said:

    Please don't say vegetarianism, because that comes with its own load of issues and environmental problems...

    What environmental issues are these? I'm woefully ignorant about the subject, despite being a vegetarian myself -- could you tell us more?
    There isn't really enough land where crops can be grown to feed the world's growing population.
    That isn't very true. Animal agriculture takes more land than plant agriculture does. More land is used by converting plant food to animal food than just by producing plant food. There is more than enough land to feed everyone in the world, twice over. Probably even more than that.

    EvenThirdmatthewmartin
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    :coffee:
  • I would be vegetarian, but I don't see why all those lettuces should die.
    vinlynChazMaryAnneKundo
  • I eat exclusively rocks in order to be low sugar, vegetarian, low fat, gluten free.

    I prefer sandstone and granite.
    ChazDharmaMcBumJeongjwa
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Jeffrey, I think you're taking for granite that those rocks are healthy for you. In reality, they'll probably make you schist in your pants.
    MaryAnneChazKundo
  • Yeah rocks make me constipated. Believe me.
    Chaz
  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran
    seeker242 said:


    That isn't very true. Animal agriculture takes more land than plant agriculture does. More land is used by converting plant food to animal food than just by producing plant food. There is more than enough land to feed everyone in the world, twice over. Probably even more than that.

    That may be true, but the sad truth is the vast majority people who currently eat meat aren't going to change their diet.

    So, the argument that there isn't enough land to grow crops is valid and cogent. We are running out of such land and the land we have is being threatened. To look at it any other way is simply irresponsible.

    Around here we have a lot of meat animal ranching. Why? Because there's not a lot of land that can be used for crop production. In other parts of the country the problem is more accute - parts of texas, most of New Mexico and Arizona. They rely on out-of-state agricultural products. Those sources are under threat. Those places as a result are threatened as well.

    Water cannot be ignored. The world is running out of fresh water and it doesn't matter where you try to grow crops, you have to water them. As our water runs out, our ability to grow vegetable crops will diminish as well.

    So to say that we have enough farm land to grow enough food for the world twice over IS JUST PLAIN RIDICULOUS. We may have the land but we can't water the crops.
  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran
    Jeffrey said:

    Yeah rocks make me constipated. Believe me.

    Tough to pass the ####ers.

    Owwwwwwwwwch.

  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited October 2013
    Chaz said:



    So to say that we have enough farm land to grow enough food for the world twice over IS JUST PLAIN RIDICULOUS. We may have the land but we can't water the crops.

    No, it is not plain ridiculous. Water IS very important. The problem is animal agriculture consumes FAR more water than plant agriculture! It consumes more fossil fuels, contribute more to global warming and requires more land as well. It also produces more pollution.

    For water specifically, according to the USGS, it takes between 4,000 to 18,000 gallons of water to make ONE hamburger. No that is not a typo! Those are thousands and thousands of gallons to make only one hamburger!

    Meanwhile, it takes 110 gallons to make one pound of corn. 110-250 gallons to make one pound of wheat. The responsible choice is obvious. The responsible choice is to eat wheat and corn and not eat hamburgers.

    There are many sources to verify this. Below is just one of them.

    "Sustainability of meat-based and plant-based diets and the environment"
    American Society for Clinical Nutrition
    Am J Clin Nutr September 2003 vol. 78 no. 3 660S-663S
    http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/78/3/660S.full

    CONCLUSION

    "Both the meat-based average American diet and the lacto-ovo-vegetarian diet require significant quantities of nonrenewable fossil energy to produce. Thus, both food systems are not sustainable in the long term based on heavy fossil energy requirements. However, the meat-based diet requires more energy, land, and water resources than the lacto-ovo-vegetarian diet. In this limited sense, the lacto-ovo-vegetarian diet is more sustainable than the average American meat-based diet."

    And since not eating anything is not an option, the responsible environmental choice is to choose the one that is the most sustainable, which is a vegetarian diet.

    DharmaMcBum
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Corn evangelizer.
  • howhow Veteran
    It will probably take as long to convince folks to drop the pork chop as it took to once convince them that smoking caused cancer/ or asbestos wasn't a friend to their lungs/ or global warming is just a blip/ or automatic weapons are no more dangerous than a knife or that the earth wasn't flat.

    Where a child believes what they want, the spiritual adult doesn't make their belief system conditional to what they want.



    EvenThird
  • edited October 2013
    To me the sad part is that all thoes poor animals die and most of their precious body gets wasted. Pink slime is the parts no one wants to eat put to good use. But everyone hates the idea of it. They vomit at the thought, even though its at least putting the body to good use.

    Now they dont even want that stuff in the dog food even though the dog likes it. "No byproduct meal" byproduct is the liver, eyes, ears, heart, brain, kidneys, etc. They grind up like hamburger. Pink slime is the same same thing and it makes your food taste good after they treat it for ecoli.

    They just want to chuck it to rot????? What if we did that to you after you died? "Im an organ donor." "Gross! Thats disgusting!"
  • I don't mind eating a free range happy animal who is killed humanely. That's not what we see right now though for the most part.
  • KundoKundo Sydney, Australia Veteran
    These discussions rarely achieve anything but to divide people and piss them off...... But I guess that's the point really isn't it?
    :orange:
    howThePensumlobster
  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran
    seeker242 said:

    Chaz said:



    So to say that we have enough farm land to grow enough food for the world twice over IS JUST PLAIN RIDICULOUS. We may have the land but we can't water the crops.

    No, it is not plain ridiculous. Water IS very important. The problem is animal agriculture consumes FAR more water than plant agriculture! It consumes more fossil fuels, contribute more to global warming and requires more land as well. It also produces more pollution.

    For water specifically, according to the USGS, it takes between 4,000 to 18,000 gallons of water to make ONE hamburger. No that is not a typo! Those are thousands and thousands of gallons to make only one hamburger!

    Meanwhile, it takes 110 gallons to make one pound of corn. 110-250 gallons to make one pound of wheat. The responsible choice is obvious. The responsible choice is to eat wheat and corn and not eat hamburgers.

    There are many sources to verify this. Below is just one of them.

    "Sustainability of meat-based and plant-based diets and the environment"
    American Society for Clinical Nutrition
    Am J Clin Nutr September 2003 vol. 78 no. 3 660S-663S
    http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/78/3/660S.full

    CONCLUSION

    "Both the meat-based average American diet and the lacto-ovo-vegetarian diet require significant quantities of nonrenewable fossil energy to produce. Thus, both food systems are not sustainable in the long term based on heavy fossil energy requirements. However, the meat-based diet requires more energy, land, and water resources than the lacto-ovo-vegetarian diet. In this limited sense, the lacto-ovo-vegetarian diet is more sustainable than the average American meat-based diet."

    And since not eating anything is not an option, the responsible environmental choice is to choose the one that is the most sustainable, which is a vegetarian diet.

    Good info, but the fact remains is almost no one is going to willingly convert away from a meat diet. It would be like trying to get us to stop using petrochemicals. So, even though it take 4000 gallons of water to make one hamburger, we're going to have to keep spending water like that for the foreseeable future.

    The best way to reduce water usage is to reduce the population, not try to change their eating habits.

    AND ANOTHER THING ......

    We haven't discussed weather. The polar ice is melting at an alarmingly high rate. All that ice melts, as fresh water, into the world's oceans. This is going to change salinity levels as well as water temps and this will cause massive change in weather patterns, which will affect crop yields world-wide as well as declines in much-needed sources of protein (fish, shellfish, etc).

    What people eat is NOT the problem. We're running out of ways to feed them ANYTHING.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    These discussions rarely achieve anything but to divide people and piss them off...... But I guess that's the point really isn't it?
    :orange:

    You got it!

  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran
    Well this is an uplifting topic!! :D
    EvenThird
  • IF the person would drink 1000 gallons of water with their cheeseburg that would solve the overpopulation issue. (being silly)

    Back on topic the food industry is the elephant in the living room that nobody talks about. That's what they say about alcoholism.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    Chaz said:



    Good info, but the fact remains is almost no one is going to willingly convert away from a meat diet. It would be like trying to get us to stop using petrochemicals. So, even though it take 4000 gallons of water to make one hamburger, we're going to have to keep spending water like that for the foreseeable future.

    Yes, but the way things are going, there will come a time when people no longer have a choice in the matter.


    This is a good guardian article on it here: "Food shortages could force world into vegetarianism, warn scientists"

    http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2012/aug/26/food-shortages-world-vegetarianism

    Leading water scientists have issued one of the sternest warnings yet about global food supplies, saying that the world's population may have to switch almost completely to a vegetarian diet over the next 40 years to avoid catastrophic shortages.

    Humans derive about 20% of their protein from animal-based products now, but this may need to drop to just 5% to feed the extra 2 billion people expected to be alive by 2050, according to research by some of the world's leading water scientists.

    "There will not be enough water available on current croplands to produce food for the expected 9 billion population in 2050 if we follow current trends and changes towards diets common in western nations," the report by Malik Falkenmark and colleagues at the Stockholm International Water Institute (SIWI) said.

    "There will be just enough water if the proportion of animal-based foods is limited to 5% of total calories and considerable regional water deficits can be met by a … reliable system of food trade."


    It goes on to say:

    Adopting a vegetarian diet is one option to increase the amount of water available to grow more food in an increasingly climate-erratic world, the scientists said. Animal protein-rich food consumes five to 10 times more water than a vegetarian diet. One third of the world's arable land is used to grow crops to feed animals. Other options to feed people include eliminating waste and increasing trade between countries in food surplus and those in deficit.
    The best way to reduce water usage is to reduce the population, not try to change their eating habits.
    Why does it have to be one or the other? They are not mutually exclusive. The best option is to do both. However, if you think weaning people off meat or petrochemicals is hard. Try convincing people to stop having sex and making babies! This will be exponentially more difficult! :lol:
    What people eat is NOT the problem. We're running out of ways to feed them ANYTHING.
    The problem is both population growth AND inefficient use of resources! The best and most efficient way to deal with the problem is to address both issues, not just one of them as they both contribute to the problem.

    But, if you think population growth is the one and only way, good luck convincing people to stop having sex. You're going to need it! :lol:
    matthewmartin
  • Modern first world nations are reducing child birth so much that it is a problem to have social security in those nations.
    DharmaMcBum
  • Eat bugs. Why do you think birds have been so successful over the last 160 million years or so?
    Manna from heaven.
    When life hands you locusts...
    MaryAnne
  • howhow Veteran
    edited October 2013
    Perhaps by not closing down the controversial threads, those inclined towards such interactions will remain happily focused on those decoys, leaving the main area a tad less adversarial.
    or
    we could just resist responding to the flames.
    lobsterEvenThirdDharmaMcBum
  • DobsDobs Explorer
    Here's some 'food for thought' seems some 40%-50% of all food produced ends up being thrown away. Perhaps that's something all of us need to look at.
    Metta
    MaryAnneEvenThirdDharmaMcBum
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran

    Looks like it is time to close down the thread? Discussions about vegetarianism always degenerate into arguments on every forum I have been on. It's right up there with the "is it ok to kill a mosquito?" subjects.

    Methinks we need a separate subforum for such apriori contraversial subjects. Let's keep main area for Buddhist practice-related questions...

    It seems there already is that. This sub-forum is called "diet & habits". I think the reasons you mentioned are the reason why the sub forum was created to begin with. :)
  • ShakShak Veteran
    Dobs said:

    Here's some 'food for thought' seems some 40%-50% of all food produced ends up being thrown away. Perhaps that's something all of us need to look at.
    Metta

    "Cleaning your plate" is house policy with my family. When I was a kid my parents were dairy farmers and a lot of work went into putting food on the table. You didn't just throw food away. I've raised my children to understand that food doesn't magically appear in the fridge. We have a vegetable garden and have raised chickens and goats and they have participated in putting meat in the freezer the "old fashioned" way. I'm pretty proud that my kids are very mindfull eaters and they don't even realize it. Most of us in western society, especially those of us in the US lack a clear understanding of the reality of food production.

    JeffreyDharmaMcBum
  • Woah93 said:

    There has to be a better way... there is a reason the US refused to let them shoot this in their slaughterhouses. People who are aware of this tend to avoid over consuming like shown, I really think there should be more awareness on our food outside of the supermarket....

    A better way is too eat less, if not at all.
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