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Posit: Female equality has a long way to go in Buddhism

vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
Any thoughts before I present a few of my own?
riverflowEvenThird
«13

Comments

  • Truthfully, my only experience with Buddhists is here. If there is a problem, I'm not seeing it.
  • Except here

    image

  • I recently learned that in Thailand, they are no longer ordaining women monks, and not recognizing the ones already robed. I think that is a real shame. Even the DL said the next DL in line *could* turn out to be a female.

    Even online, I notice nearly all of the forums, blogs, and websites about Buddhism are male owned/run and dominated (according to the male/female numbers), by male members.
    ChazEvenThird
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    robot said:

    Except here

    image

    Yes, this is not unusual throughout Thailand. I have even been at some temples in the north, where there are viewing platforms on top of a wiharn, and women are not allowed up there. Also some temples where women were not allowed in a small compound where the old temple well was located.

  • NirvanaNirvana aka BUBBA   `     `     ` `     ` Outa Range Fridays thru Sundays South Carolina, USA Veteran
    Please forgive, first, my preliminary approach —and a very sketchy one at that. But I'll try to keep this as short as I possibly can.

    I'd start off with the scales. They are simply not made of objective stuff. Equality is a bland, abstract term which exists as a mental construct only.

    The measuring tool for "equality" can only exist purely in mathematics. Beyond that realm of pure physics we are left with a superimposed consciousness. And that consciousness is not bland. It is a "loving consciousness," what in Sanskrit is called Satcitananda. In the grossly unenlightened it may be hidden, or covered up by hate (love misdirected) or fear (its extreme negative pole), but that's what our mind consists of. We are always going after what we love in our minds.

    But, laying aside most of Sat and Chit, this Bliss (which we feel in our unrealized nature as Love) compels us to love directionally. Either we are drawn toward, away from, or against other objects or persons, etc., according to our inclinations and circumstances.

    But even when we are drawn toward others with "love," that love is different for each person or thing. The love one feels for Peter is unique to Peter, the love for Paul for Paul, and that for Mary, unique to Mary, etc.

    That said, monks would prefer the things/issues relating to brother monks and the nuns prefer those things relating to their sister nuns, etc.

    Nor am I sure that women "catching up with" the ranks of Buddhist teachers would necessarily be desirable, for then it might tilt the other way —as in some mainline Protestant churches in the USA. That might cause an upheaval that might well disturb some fundaments. Now don't @stupid me on this paragraph, anyone. This is not the gist of this here post of mine. Hint! This is a side-point. (I try not to use the @member function, to protest the nitpicking that people sometimes do, ignoring all your well-intention "offering." Not all words in a post are of equal value, but people do tend to listen for their own issues.)

    For me the real issue is whether the Teachers and the followers are the Real Thing. That's all that matters. But, on the other hand, I do find women much richer in Practical Wisdom than men are. Aristotle taught about the two branches of wisdom, Theoretical Wisdom and Practical Wisdom. I've long observed how much more Practical Wisdom Women have than men. Of course, saints and avatars such as Buddha, Sri Ramakrishna, and Jesus exemplify practical wisdom, but their male followers tended not to "catch" that gentle breeze.

  • NirvanaNirvana aka BUBBA   `     `     ` `     ` Outa Range Fridays thru Sundays South Carolina, USA Veteran
    Women not to enter so as not to distract the monks.
    Makes sense to me.
    BTW, that is the gist of this post.
  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran
    The Dalai Lama mentioned in one his his books (Universe In A Single Atom?) that there are female monastic lineages in Tibetan Buddhism faced with extinction because of rules that involve men - men who are a bit stubborn with regards to changes of the role of women in society as a whole over the last century.

    Monastic rules that dictate a nun's behavior towards male counterparts is disgraceful.

    Ajahn Brahm was kicked out of his lineage for ordaining nuns in 2009.

    MaryAnne's observation about males in positions of authority in Buddhism is right on.

    We have a ways to go yet.
    KundoEvenThird
  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    edited October 2013
    Nirvana said:

    Women not to enter so as not to distract the monks.
    Makes sense to me.
    BTW, that is the gist of this post.

    On one hand, I understand the 'strict set up' and 'why'...
    on the other hand...the issue is with the person feeling
    distracted...and how to deal with that.
    What? Women aren't distracted by a whole bunch
    of stuff all day long? There are no sacred cows here...
    ahem...sorry...but one distraction can't fall in that sort
    of catagory all by itself.
    Delusions are delusions....from what I understand.

    'Every man thinks his burden is the heaviest' -Bob Marley
    MaryAnne
  • NirvanaNirvana aka BUBBA   `     `     ` `     ` Outa Range Fridays thru Sundays South Carolina, USA Veteran
    Well chief among those things which we human beings seek is first SECURITY. Now, tie that with keeping one's STATUS (as a uncompromised monk)...

    Well, the ways of the East don't seem unreasonable to me. The monks at the monastery to which I go on retreat sometimes say they feel like they live in a zoo. And although women are welcome visitors, they may not stay overnight. But then, they do have convents for women. Same sort of rules.

  • TheEccentricTheEccentric South east, UK Veteran
    Nirvana said:

    Women not to enter so as not to distract the monks.
    Makes sense to me.
    BTW, that is the gist of this post.

    But why can't Women ordain there and become monastics themselves? If you can have Monks why can't you have Nuns?
  • NirvanaNirvana aka BUBBA   `     `     ` `     ` Outa Range Fridays thru Sundays South Carolina, USA Veteran


    But why can't Women ordain there and become monastics themselves? If you can have Monks why can't you have Nuns?

    Ordain Where?

    Sexual Thoughts distract the Monks from their Spiritual Work. And those who are chiefly homoerotic have to (or should) sublimate that love. For grass to grow perfectly, you have to keep weeds from sprouting.

    Even in Greek churches the men are on one side and the women on the other during Divine Liturgy.
  • howhow Veteran
    I understand that humans have innate prejudices but in a meditative tradition that is supposed to illuminate and let go of our prejudicial tendencies, discrimination's like this, especially by it's leaders, just give credence to the view that the Dharma is in decline.
    VastmindMaryAnneEvenThird
  • That ordination hall is closed to women at all times. Not only when monks are present. Male tourists can come and go. Sorry ladies.
  • My teacher, Shenpen Hookham is female. And then there are many other female teachers such as Pema Chodron, Ayya Khem, Sharon Salzburg, Cheri Huber and many others.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Jeffrey said:

    My teacher, Shenpen Hookham is female. And then there are many other female teachers such as Pema Chodron, Ayya Khem, Sharon Salzburg, Cheri Huber and many others.

    This is sort of like saying, "I'm not prejudiced. One of my best friends is Black."

    What would you say is the approximate ration of male teachers to female teachers of Buddhism in the world? Anything approaching 50-50?

  • As @Vastmind said, humanity has a whole has a long way to go when it comes to treating women as equal. Sure, there were practical reasons for same-sex temples. Most of those boil down then and now to biased beliefs. The reason given for initially segregating the bhikkhu and bhikkhuni, by the way, was not that the men would be tempted to jump the women. The old arahants claimed it was the women who would not be able to control their lusts and they'd try to seduce the men!

    As for the presence of women leading to lustful thoughts (euphemistically referred to as "distractions" in most cases) since when did we men need a woman walking in front of us to make us think of sex? That's just another rationalization. Sex is a desire like any other.
    VastmindMaryAnne
  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    edited October 2013
    ^^^ Us TRY and seduce them? See ? haha
    Same song, but with a different beat. :D

    The second part... I agree with...... In a throw myself
    at you, kind of way, of course. ;)
    MaryAnne
  • vinlyn said:

    Jeffrey said:

    My teacher, Shenpen Hookham is female. And then there are many other female teachers such as Pema Chodron, Ayya Khem, Sharon Salzburg, Cheri Huber and many others.

    This is sort of like saying, "I'm not prejudiced. One of my best friends is Black."

    What would you say is the approximate ration of male teachers to female teachers of Buddhism in the world? Anything approaching 50-50?

    Yes 50 50. But you cannot just enforce that like affirmative action imho. A teacher must have the training etc I am not saying there aren't enough females, I really don't know what is out there. My teacher was a nun for 7 years?? And she has a good understanding of mahamudra accoring to her teacher. She has done the long retreat typical for a lama afaik.

    So two points: it should be 5050 but the females must have the training.
  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    robot said:

    That ordination hall is closed to women at all times. Not only when monks are present. Male tourists can come and go. Sorry ladies.

    See?...... @robot seems to understand what we have to deal with
    in this world , hahaha I'll take that 'sorry',
    thank you very much, hahaha

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Jeffrey said:

    vinlyn said:

    Jeffrey said:

    My teacher, Shenpen Hookham is female. And then there are many other female teachers such as Pema Chodron, Ayya Khem, Sharon Salzburg, Cheri Huber and many others.

    This is sort of like saying, "I'm not prejudiced. One of my best friends is Black."

    What would you say is the approximate ration of male teachers to female teachers of Buddhism in the world? Anything approaching 50-50?

    Yes 50 50. But you cannot just enforce that like affirmative action imho. A teacher must have the training etc I am not saying there aren't enough females, I really don't know what is out there. My teacher was a nun for 7 years?? And she has a good understanding of mahamudra accoring to her teacher. She has done the long retreat typical for a lama afaik.

    So two points: it should be 5050 but the females must have the training.
    If you think it's "Yes 50 50", you're living on another planet.

    Females must have training??? In Thailand -- the country most populated with Buddhists -- females are not allowed to be trained or to be ordained, and even the mae chee status in not recognized by formal Buddhism.

  • Ah. I thought you asking about how it should be with the 50 50 rather than how it is. Just like they should receive training.
  • edited October 2013
    To refute the sentiment of bigotry here, I will add that Guan Yin is a female emanation of avalokiteshvara. Samantabhadra Bodhisattva is the patron of women. Pema Choderon is one of the most respected figures in tibetan buddhism: dakini (all 10 million of them), Yeshe Tsoyogal, Tara (all 8), the krodeshvari, the yogini, the list goes on and on, this is just off of the top of my head as well.

    Lust is one of human kinds greatest attatchments. Imagine a whole life as a celibate nun, and then a dude walks in. It dont matter, hed look like brad pitt naked. Even with the robes on. I'm not a girl, but if girls didn't have libidos, strong ones, the species would have died out. The other trick is that, imagine if the guy who walked in was into everything you were into. Anyone who shows up at an ordination is serious about buddhism, It's a match made in heaven.

    As far a equal rights goes ... I'm all for it... I'd die for it. But what is happening now is not equal rights. It seems to me that the Feminists (not all women) want greater rights than men. The original women in the movement had a clue, not to mention that their husbands voted on it. But spoiled kids are always reckless, man or woman.

    Women have equal rights. There might be a bigot or two with a big mouth. But most of us here have no issue with anything you want to do. We dont think your dumb because your a woman. We dont think you're a whore because you're not a virgin. We dont think you should get paid less, or get stuck with jobs you dont like. We dont smack your butt and make rude comments. We dont force sexual favors. And most of us, would kick the crap out of anyone who did... or at least think about it.

    But their are facts of life that are hard for anyone. Jobs can suck, people get sick, people are hatefull. Impermanence, Everything is always falling apart, woman or man. Karma, cause and effect, dosen't stop because your a woman, and it didnt get there because of a man. Delusion is not solely privy to men, nor is it primary in women. We all have it.

    I am just pissed, because i'm a good man, and i know many good men, in fact i've never met a bigot. I'm tired of this nonsense, and the effect it has on families and children. Besides, all the old, bigoted men, what did they really want for you? They wanted you to have a nice home, nice kids, plenty of money, time to relax, and whatever else. They essentially gave their wives permanant retirement. You have no work except the house and the kids. That is the only thing they ever wanted to do!!!! Yes their were evil men, and there always will be. But again, before women could vote, the men had to vote about weather or not women could vote. So at least 2/3s of us were for womens rights at that time. And our numbers have only grown.

    P.S. I think the wage thing is a bit jacked up (women make 15-20 cents less than men per hour). I think the key is to ask more. If they offer you a raise, they always have more money than they say. Haggle. You dont gotta be an amazonian warrior princess, but a bit of persistance always pays off.

    Blessings and peace. This time just for the women.
    VastmindNirvanaCinorjerJoyfulGirl
  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    edited October 2013
    'Permanent retirement' ??
    That's one way to put it....

    'No work, except for.....

    Oh, hell's bell's...I'm not getting into this
    one...hahahaha
    MaryAnne
  • howhow Veteran
    I practiced in a monastery with mixed gender. One of the funnier (but true) observations of the abbot about this when someone started looking doe eyed at somebody else,
    "that in a monastery, eventually even the frogs start to look like princes."

    Any phenomena can catch you just as any phenomena can be let to pass on it's way.
    VastmindMaryAnneCinorjer
  • Vastmind said:

    'Permanent retirement' ??
    That's one way to put it....

    'No work, except for.....

    Oh, hell's bell's...I'm not getting into this
    one...hahahaha


    A wise move my sistah, a wise move indeed.... ;)

    VastmindvinlynEvenThird
  • NirvanaNirvana aka BUBBA   `     `     ` `     ` Outa Range Fridays thru Sundays South Carolina, USA Veteran
    edited October 2013
    how said:

    I understand that humans have innate prejudices but in a meditative tradition that is supposed to illuminate and let go of our prejudicial tendencies, discriminations like this, especially by its leaders, just give credence to the view that the Dharma is in decline.

    ````````underlining mine

    I'm not sure prejudice is a very apt paradigm here. Perhaps "hangup" at most.

    However, the following the "Royal Road" of the would-be arahat entails renouncing sexual involvements. It's really that simple.

    As for discrimination, I think that the person-whose-true-calling-is-monkhood-or-nunhood has to be very selective in most matters. Again, I'd call it Wisdom, not discrimination.

    Animals are sexual beings. To really dive deep one has to go beyond one's chief inessential animal tendencies, even if only for a season. But in the household of the "non-householders" this season is never quite out of season.

    This matter is very clear-cut in many Indian traditions. It's not prejudice, it's what's called following the code and using methods to help one steer clear of obstacles..

    If ever there was an obstacle to the spiritual life it is the sexual urge.
    Vastmind
  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    edited October 2013
    That's right...exchange that sexual urge for a list of house
    chores that never ends........... and all of a sudden, you made it
    through a 'retreat'....hehe
    Welcome to my life..plus 30 hrs a week working...

    Your welcome for the 'retirement' package lololol
  • KundoKundo Sydney, Australia Veteran
    Nirvana said:


    Even in Greek churches the men are on one side and the women on the other during Divine Liturgy.

    And in Orthodox Jewish Synagogues men and women are separate (the women are on the top level and the men on the ground floor - I think women get a better view ;) ). Women aren't ordained as priests in Christianity. IMO, when religion turned patriachal, women lost their importance.

    In metta,
    Raven
    MaryAnne
  • MaryAnneMaryAnne Veteran
    edited October 2013
    And that 'sexual urge'.... is it right to "blame" the target of those urges?
    Or perhaps it would be better, even wiser and more 'enlightened', if everyone would own their own so-called "uncontrollable urges" and stop blaming the Temptress/ Woman?
  • NirvanaNirvana aka BUBBA   `     `     ` `     ` Outa Range Fridays thru Sundays South Carolina, USA Veteran
    Cinorjer said:

    Sex is a desire like any other.

    Well, I never heard of anyone getting infatuated with a single piece of geography. If what I just quoted were true I'd be in seventh heaven already.

    Sex is the basic, primal hunger that simply cannot be filled. Unequal in the sexes from what I've seen, a man is almost insatiable. The more he gets, the more he "needs."

    The Monk needs to steer himself down the narrow way in this matter.
  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    edited October 2013
    Nirvana said:

    Cinorjer said:

    Sex is a desire like any other.

    ............
    Sex is the basic, primal hunger that simply cannot be filled. Unequal in the sexes from what I've seen, a man is almost insatiable. The more he gets, the more he "needs."

    The Monk needs to steer himself down the narrow way in this matter.
    That's right. I understand there is a time and place in which men
    need to learn 'how to steer'......the setting seems appropriate, in
    some places/times/people. I admit that.

    Men retreats. Or full monastic, yes.
    The deeper thinking of inequality....is something else.

  • Vastmind said:

    'Permanent retirement' ??
    That's one way to put it....

    'No work, except for.....

    Oh, hell's bell's...I'm not getting into this
    one...hahahaha


    I'll bite.
    I chose to fish in all kinds of shitty weather in the winter time rather than stay home and have my wife go out to work. It looked like it would be easier to me. Frankly, there is no way the kids would have had the kind of upbringing that they had if I had been the one keeping house.
    When it comes time to divorce, the courts don't see it as me giving my wife anything. They see it as me taking away her opportunity to develop a career. So I pay more.

    While none of this is about Buddhism, I would also like to point out that the way women are treated in the west is only part of the story. There are horrible reports coming out of Africa lately about rape of women and girls. Which is nothing new of course.

    No offence, @Neither but your post reminded me of the conversations I have routinely with guys who like to complain about how well First Nations people are treated. "We give them money to do nothing and what do they do? Drink it away."
    As if we just came over here and started giving them stuff so they wouldn't have to work.
    VastmindNirvanavinlynEvenThird
  • NirvanaNirvana aka BUBBA   `     `     ` `     ` Outa Range Fridays thru Sundays South Carolina, USA Veteran
    edited October 2013

    Any phenomenon can catch you just as any phenomenon can be let to pass on its way.
    I think that's too simplistic and therefore not true. Further examination proves it untrue. It might be remotely possible for someone not to be affected by a deep wound, for instance, but not likely.

    Nirvana said:


    Even in Greek churches the men are on one side and the women on the other during Divine Liturgy.

    And in Orthodox Jewish Synagogues men and women are separate (the women are on the top level and the men on the ground floor - I think women get a better view ;) ). Women aren't ordained as priests in Christianity. IMO, when religion turned patriachal, women lost their importance.

    In metta,
    Raven
    Priests are not monks. Priests can live a normal, secular life. There are secular priests and religious priests (Ordained Monks). In Christianity monks take vows, priests are ordained.

    Moreover, in the Episcopal Church women have been ordained priests canonically since 1977 and in the Anglican Church of Canada since 1976. Non-canonically, women have been ordained much longer. Easily found for those interested in an "ordination of women" search on Wikipedia. But all of this is beside the point.
    I practiced in a monastery with mixed gender. One of the funnier (but true) observations of the abbot about this when someone started looking doe eyed at somebody else,
    "that in a monastery, eventually even the frogs start to look like princes."

    In the post-modern world ancient traditions with long lineages, along with much of their conceptual framework have crumbled somewhat and partly revived in new wineskins, as it were. And of course, "new wine" had to be made and a lot of the old wine discarded by the New Agers. But still, the traditional Western Monastery was cloistered and separated the monks from each other most of the time and was built to accommodate only one gender. Look up Cloister in any good dictionary. I am not conversant so much with the Buddhist traditions, but understand that they too emphasized the spiritual over the mundane.

    To call a place where the genders live together and sleep together a monastery is to me like calling all sweet fruits that grow on trees a Peach. Yes, it's true that a peach is a tree fruit, but not all treefruits are Peaches.

    It's not a "Monastery": it's an alternative lifestyle refuge.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    So far, what we mostly have here is a bunch of men saying there's no issue.
    KundoriverflowJoyfulGirl
  • Nirvana said:

    Cinorjer said:

    Sex is a desire like any other.

    Well, I never heard of anyone getting infatuated with a single piece of geography. If what I just quoted were true I'd be in seventh heaven already.

    Sex is the basic, primal hunger that simply cannot be filled. Unequal in the sexes from what I've seen, a man is almost insatiable. The more he gets, the more he "needs."

    The Monk needs to steer himself down the narrow way in this matter.
    Hey, not saying that it isn't a big desire. Shoot, when I reached my own teenage years and discovered what the fuss was all about I lost all interest in church. Except for this organ player, a young married woman who always took her shoes off when sitting at the keyboard and those nylon clad toes caressed the pedals...excuse me, I have to lie down.

    Just a desire.
    VastmindvinlynKundo
  • howhow Veteran
    @vinlyn
    check again and I think you'll see most of the male postings here say that there is a equality issue and that it has little basis for logical support.
    The rest are from a young flame writting from his parents basement.
    EvenThird
  • Jeffrey said:

    vinlyn said:

    Jeffrey said:

    My teacher, Shenpen Hookham is female. And then there are many other female teachers such as Pema Chodron, Ayya Khem, Sharon Salzburg, Cheri Huber and many others.

    This is sort of like saying, "I'm not prejudiced. One of my best friends is Black."

    What would you say is the approximate ration of male teachers to female teachers of Buddhism in the world? Anything approaching 50-50?

    Yes 50 50. But you cannot just enforce that like affirmative action imho. A teacher must have the training etc I am not saying there aren't enough females, I really don't know what is out there. My teacher was a nun for 7 years?? And she has a good understanding of mahamudra accoring to her teacher. She has done the long retreat typical for a lama afaik.

    So two points: it should be 5050 but the females must have the training.
    @vinlyn, here in bold I thought you said appropriate rather than proximate.

    It is kind of like saying you have a black friend but you are missing what I am saying. I am not saying that all Buddhists/isms/isists are fair to women. What I am saying is that there is no inherent barrier preventing women's equlity. We don't have to scrap all of Buddhism to fix one thing. Buddhism can be fixed.
  • how said:

    @vinlyn
    check again and I think you'll see most of the male postings here say that there is a equality issue and that it has little basis for logical support.
    The rest are from a young flame writting from his parents basement.

    Are you referring to someone at newbuddhist? I like people to either be straight with their criticisms and divulge what they are talking about. OR they can handle things in PMs.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Jeffrey said:



    Yes 50 50. But you cannot just enforce that like affirmative action imho. A teacher must have the training etc I am not saying there aren't enough females, I really don't know what is out there. My teacher was a nun for 7 years?? And she has a good understanding of mahamudra accoring to her teacher. She has done the long retreat typical for a lama afaik.

    So two points: it should be 5050 but the females must have the training.

    @vinlyn, here in bold I thought you said appropriate rather than proximate.

    It is kind of like saying you have a black friend but you are missing what I am saying. I am not saying that all Buddhists/isms/isists are fair to women. What I am saying is that there is no inherent barrier preventing women's equlity. We don't have to scrap all of Buddhism to fix one thing. Buddhism can be fixed.

    Well, first of all, Jeffrey, it seems like you're responding to your own post. That's all your writing there...none of it mine. Or are you trying to clarify your earlier post?

    1. No inherent barrier? Mostly in the SE Asian countries, where millions of Buddhists live, there is a brick wall barrier. I don't know about the remainder of Buddhists in Asia.

    2. Where have I suggested scrapping Buddhism???????????????????????????????????????

  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited October 2013
    Vastmind said:

    Female equality has a long way to go...on the whole planet. Buddhism..or
    any religion is just one reflection of that.

    QFT
    riverflow
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    vinlyn said:

    Any thoughts before I present a few of my own?

    I agree that it has a long way to go, just as it does in almost all aspects of life. Millennia of near worldwide patriarchy is a difficult thing to transcend it seems. As for my more specific thoughts about the issue, some of them can be found in this previous discussion.
  • KundoKundo Sydney, Australia Veteran
    Nirvana said:

    Priests are not monks. Priests can live a normal, secular life. There are secular priests and religious priests (Ordained Monks). In Christianity monks take vows, priests are ordained.

    Catholic Priests live a celibate life with no wife or family of their own. As an anomaly as that has become in Christian clergy, Catholicism is still a HUGE chunk of Christianity. You can't conveniently ignore that to shoot down my post.

    In metta,
    Raven
    vinlynMaryAnne
  • NirvanaNirvana aka BUBBA   `     `     ` `     ` Outa Range Fridays thru Sundays South Carolina, USA Veteran
    I am sorry, Raven, for having "shot down" your post. I didn't mean to do that.

    In the East the Orthodox Christian priests have always been allowed to marry. It's only the Bishops (or those aspiring so to be) who may not. The Orthodox Church is actually more adherent to Ancient Practice, although unlike St Paul it will not allow a Bishop to be a man of one wife.
  • SilouanSilouan Veteran
    edited October 2013
    Priests are not permitted to pursue or enter marriage after ordination in the Eastern Orthodox Christian tradition, and a hieromonk is a priestmonk.

    It is a fact that priests and bishops can only be male. However, the church does permit women to participate in the order of the clergy as deaconesses and in monasticism as nuns.

    Though never worshiped the Theotokos (Mother of God/Virgin Mary) is the most holy revered saint of the church with several beautiful services throughout the year dedicated to venerate and honor her. Even priests and bishops prostrate before her holy image for she is considered the first Christian, model for both men and women, and mother of all such that every generation shall call her blessed.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited October 2013
    @vinlyn, nevermind I was just trying to say that I meant appropriate sex ratio rather than approximate.

    And by inherent barrier I meant that there is nothing stopping (in Tibetan Buddhism) the rise of female teachers provided they are trained by an existing teacher. For instance like my Lama who is female and became a teacher.

    But never mind :)
  • All we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts we make the world. Think and act with an impure mind, and trouble will follow you as the ox that draws the cart

    Look at how they beat me
    How they threw me down and robed me
    Keep these thoughts and live in hate

    All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts we make the world. Think and act with a pure mind and goodness will follow you, as the ox that draws the cart.

    Look at how they beat me
    How they threw me down and robed me
    Abandon such thoughts and live in love

    Hate never yet dispelled hate. Only love can dispell hate.

    So for all of you women, (african americans, homosexuals, etc.) who feel as though men, (whites, heterosexuals, etc.) beat them and robed them. Please know that i am not like that at all, and neither are any of my brothers, sisters, or friends.

    And know that the buddha, dharma, and shanga are safe places for you to take refuge.

    If you dont believe me, watch the talks from thich naht hanh, and the dalai lama. In the ones i've seen, from the united states, there seem to be more women than men present, and I seem to remeber the dalai lama saying that bringing compassion to the world is up to the women. He talked about growing up with his mother, and the great warmth of spirit that she had, and how important it is that that be cultivated in our world.

    Compassion and emptiness is the movie.
  • I was going to write a long post, and then I thought: "whats the point". Most of you guys have made up your mind. Women should hide from men so they don't let their animalistic urges come out. Cleaning and taking care of children is retirement and relaxing. Feminists want to rule the world and have MORE rights than men. Poor little men. Ruled by women. Even though the richest people on this earth are men, even though women aren't allowed to recieve certain teachings and even walk into monastries. Its a tough one to give the other sex equal rights, because lets face it, women aren't human they are another species. I am so tired of how sexist this forum can be, its a disgrace.
    MaryAnneriverflow
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Thank you, Joyful Girl, for speaking out. Just remember not all us men are so blind or insensitive.
    riverflow
  • ((((( JoyfulGirl )))))) BOOM!!
    vinlynriverflow
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